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Cricket: England select another South African

The addition of Jade Dernbach to the eleven who finished the game in Cardiff brings the number of South African born players in the 'England twelve' to five, namely: Strauss, Trott, Pietersen, Prior and Dernbach as well as an Irishman, Eoin Morgan. I know all about the qualification periods and parental rulings, but this is too much. I would rather support an inferior England team composed of English natives than a bunch of successful mercenaries coached by yet another South African posing as a Zimbabwean in Andy 'me ol cock sparrer'  Flower.

There is a similar trend in Rugby Union. The England Saxons now boasts a Botha as well as Matt (make mine a coke) Stevens and noises are being made regarding the selection of Manu Tuilagi, a Samoan thug from a family of Samoan thugs for the soon to be selected England RFU world cup squad.

Is England really so short of talent that we must be dependant on foreigners to bolster our national sports teams?. Perhaps it is a case of too much game boying and twittering by our young men and not enough huffing, puffing and coaching. Also I fear a lack of national pride brought on by the PC brigades who consider any hint of patriotism and national pride as akin to fascism, racism and (I am sure) a few other isms.

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Comments

  • Also I fear a lack of national pride brought on by the PC brigades who consider any hint of patriotism and national pride as akin to fascism, racism and (I am sure) a few other isms.

     

    Ok, how does a rant about political correctness get into the debate about foreign born players in teams representing England? What relevance does it have?

  • The relevance?, read it again and work it out for yourself. If I haven't made my point clear, then another few sentences will not serve to clarify

    Also I fear a lack of national pride brought on by the PC brigades who consider any hint of patriotism and national pride as akin to fascism, racism and (I am sure) a few other isms.

     

    Ok, how does a rant about political correctness get into the debate about foreign born players in teams representing England? What relevance does it have?


  • The relevance?, read it again and work it out for yourself. If I haven't made my point clear, then another few sentences will not serve to clarify

     

    As I said accusations of political correctness are irrelevant to the point you are trying to make.

     

     

  • I agree that countries shouldn't be able to,for want of a better word, 'shop' for players, however the blame ultimately falls on the governing body and not the country / players.

    I don't agree that you can only play for your country of birth (not sure if you are saying this or not, apologies if not). This is too rigid & unfair.

    Re PC brigades, I think your wrong.
  • in relation to cricket they have all served a qualification period and committed themselves to england. None of them came to the uk as worldbeaters and it is the english county game and national set up which has developed the talent. Good on the ecb for taking advantage of the set up. Couldn't care less if they were born on mars as long as they want to play and help make england a better side.
  • edited June 2011

    Frankly I couldn't give a flying f*ck. If they are eligible, they are eligible.


    For the record, in my lifetime, the following cricketers in addition to Andrew Strauss have captained England who weren't born in England (or Wales)

    1. Colin Cowdrey Born in India
    2. Tony Grieg Born in South Africa
    3. Mike Denness A Scot
    4. Nasser Hussain Born in India

    Over the years a total of 61 players have played for England who weren't born in the British Isles. (The point about Morgan is that players from the British Isles have always been eligible to play for the only Test playing nation here - England.)

    Sixteen were born in India, 11 in West Indies, 10 in South Africa and nine in Australia.

    AUSTRALIA: Billy Murdoch, John Ferris, Sammy Woods, Albert Trott, ‘Gubby’ Allen, Adam Hollioake, Ben Hollioake, Jason Gallian, Tim Ambrose.

    SOUTH AFRICA: Basil D’Oliviera, Tony Greig, Ian Greig, Allan Lamb, Chris Smith, Robin Smith, Andrew Strauss, Kevin Pietersen, Matt Prior, Jonathan Trott.

    WEST INDIES: Lord Harris, Pelham Warner, Roland Butcher, Norman Cowans, Wilf Slack, Gladstone Small, Phillip DeFreitas, Devon Malcolm, Chris Lewis, Neil Williams, Joseph Benjamin.

    NEW ZEALAND: Andy Caddick.

    INDIA: K.S. Ranjitsinhji (‘Ranji’), Edward Wynyard, Richard Young, Neville Tufnell, Douglas Jardine, K.S. Duleepsinhji (‘Duleep’), Nawab of Pataudi, Sr., Errol Holmes, Norman Mitchell-Innes, George Emmett, Colin Cowdrey, John Jameson, Bob Woolmer, Robin Jackman, Nasser Hussain, Minal Patel.

    PAKISTAN: Usman Afzaal, Owais Shah.

    ZIMBABWE (formerly Rhodesia): Graeme Hick, Paul Parker.

    KENYA: Derek Pringle.

    ZAMBIA: Phil Edmonds, Neil Radford.

    GERMANY: Donald Carr, Paul Terry.

    ITALY: Ted Dexter.

    PERU: Freddie Brown.

    HONG KONG: Dermot Reeve.

    PAPUA NEW GUINEA: Geraint Jones.

    DENMARK: Amjad Khan.

    If they are eligible and good enough, then they have been picked over the whole history of the game.
  • Pleased to see that you purchased a copy of Wisden.
  • edited June 2011
    Pleased to see that you purchased a copy of Wisden.
    No, some of it I knew, the rest is available on line. When people make sweeping generalisations about situations, there is always the detail out there somewhere to provide a counterweight.
  • It was quite a sensible and well thought out post until you went completely off the rails in the last paragraph and went into Daily Mail/Sun reader over-drive.

    For the record, Strauss and Prior learnt their Cricket in England and can't really be compared with Trott, Pietersen and Dernbach. Its also unfair to lump Morgan in there, he is genuinely England qualified and we are the only Test nation that he can realistically play for.

    To be fair though KP and Trott both came over here as young pros and threw their lot in with England, they are not really in the Kepler Wessels category of carpet baggers.

  • I'm in the camp that you should only be able to play for the country you were born in. Tough if you are a great cricketer but were born in Outer Mongolia. Blame your parents. Otherwise what is the point of having a nationality ?
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  • I'm in the camp that you should only be able to play for the country you were born in. Tough if you are a great cricketer but were born in Outer Mongolia. Blame your parents. Otherwise what is the point of having a nationality ?
    So Colin Cowdrey and Ted Dexter shouldn't have been allowed to play for England?
  • edited June 2011
    There were two problems in respect of the original post, the first is that somehow we have just cottoned on to the case for players - South African specifically who can bolster our ranks despite not being born here. That is manifest nonsense as I have shown from the history books. Those not born in England have always been eligible provided they meet the eligibility criteria.

    The second problem is the anti PC point which is a classic popularist rant to justify some kind of narrow little Englander perspective not borne out by the facts.

    There is a legitimate case to be made that only those born here are eligible to play. Yorkshire used to have a rule that only players actually born in the county could play for them. That was seen as a huge strength when Yorkshire was a dominant force in English cricket. Eventually after years of lack of success, they binned that rule.

    Personally I think it should be about nationality - where you were born, or acquired your nationality, or your parents nationality. That to me gets it right. Going back to grandparents for example seems to go too far. Because England is the only home nation that has a First Class game, eligibility must be based on UK eligibility not just England. 

    As far as I know though, all of those currently picked for England cricket are either naturalised UK
    citizens/have a UK passport or have at least one parent who is a UK national.


  • I'm in the camp that you should only be able to play for the country you were born in. Tough if you are a great cricketer but were born in Outer Mongolia. Blame your parents. Otherwise what is the point of having a nationality ?
    So Colin Cowdrey and Ted Dexter shouldn't have been allowed to play for England?
    In my opinion, no they shouldn't have been allowed to play for England.
  •  or have at least one parent 


    so now it's a free for all !!
  •  or have at least one parent 


    so now it's a free for all !!

    Now edited! :-)
  • Jade Dernbach; Also learnt his crickt in the Surrey academy, as a Surrey member I remember watching him when he got to the second at the ge of about 16, and he had been at the club for few years by then.So he is more English than South African, I also belive that both his parents born in this country.
  • Jade Dernbach; Also learnt his crickt in the Surrey academy, as a Surrey member I remember watching him when he got to the second at the ge of about 16, and he had been at the club for few years by then.So he is more English than South African, I also belive that both his parents born in this country.

    But hey lets not let the facts get in the way of a good anti-PC rant!
  • I'm in the camp that you should only be able to play for the country you were born in. Tough if you are a great cricketer but were born in Outer Mongolia. Blame your parents. Otherwise what is the point of having a nationality ?
    Lol! Stick to football.
  • I'm in the camp that you should only be able to play for the country you were born in. Tough if you are a great cricketer but were born in Outer Mongolia. Blame your parents. Otherwise what is the point of having a nationality ?
    So Colin Cowdrey and Ted Dexter shouldn't have been allowed to play for England?
    In my opinion, no they shouldn't have been allowed to play for England.
    Sorry but that's ridiculous. Your place of birth doesn't necessarily determine your nationality. John Mcenroe was born in Germany, so should he have partnering Boris Becker in the Davis Cup? 
  • My point is a little deeper than just place of birth and nationality etc of parents

     As a 'nation' England has lost a deal of pride and drive. My opinion is that young people are dissuaded from taking pride in being English because 'the pc lobby' , which has held sway politically for a long time and has had and still has great influence in matters of education and perceptions of cultural identity, maintains that a pride in one's country and background is essentially fascist and racist and is totally at odds with a notion of cultural diversity. To my  mind this has resulted in stagnation, indeed deterioration in many fields including sporting performance at a national level.

     Ironically it could be the case whereby some South Africans who come back to live in 'the mother country', i.e England, take more pride in a notion of Englishness than native born Englishmen and women.

    And historically, I agree that many many players born overseas have represented England. No problem. The problem in this case, that is the current English cricket team is that HALF of the selected players come from overseas. This IN MY OPINION is worrying as it indicates something amiss with the development of a winning mentality in this country. I consider that the tremendous rise in the playing of technological as opposed to field games and a misguided 'pc outlook' amongst educationalists is in large part to blame for this situation.

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  • as the Duke of Wellington said upon being abused for having been born in Dublin:

    If I was born in a stable does that make me a horse?

     

     

    next we will have people representing Charlton who have never even lived in Greenwich.

  • The D O W, one of my favorite historical figures. Horse or not, his family had sub stantial estates in ireland.

    On the Greenwich point, remeber Celtic and the European Cup?. All the players were born in an area nae moor than a good spit from Sauciehall Street, or something like that  

  • I think Jade Dernbach was 10 when he left South Africa, and learnt all his cricket over here.  He made his 1st class debut for Surrey when he was 17.
  • Have you heard Strauss speak? He's not South African. As long as they have a British passport it really does not matter anyway

  • Also I fear a lack of national pride brought on by the PC brigades who consider any hint of patriotism and national pride as akin to fascism, racism and (I am sure) a few other isms.

     

    Ok, how does a rant about political correctness get into the debate about foreign born players in teams representing England? What relevance does it have?

    So rather than focus on the topic at hand, you decide to focus on Lincs perceived PC rant?
  • My point is a little deeper than just place of birth and nationality etc of parents

     As a 'nation' England has lost a deal of pride and drive. My opinion is that young people are dissuaded from taking pride in being English because 'the pc lobby' , which has held sway politically for a long time and has had and still has great influence in matters of education and perceptions of cultural identity, maintains that a pride in one's country and background is essentially fascist and racist and is totally at odds with a notion of cultural diversity. To my  mind this has resulted in stagnation, indeed deterioration in many fields including sporting performance at a national level.

     Ironically it could be the case whereby some South Africans who come back to live in 'the mother country', i.e England, take more pride in a notion of Englishness than native born Englishmen and women.

    And historically, I agree that many many players born overseas have represented England. No problem. The problem in this case, that is the current English cricket team is that HALF of the selected players come from overseas. This IN MY OPINION is worrying as it indicates something amiss with the development of a winning mentality in this country. I consider that the tremendous rise in the playing of technological as opposed to field games and a misguided 'pc outlook' amongst educationalists is in large part to blame for this situation.


    I would no doubt fit your description of "the pc lobby" yet nobody is more patriotic than me. I regret to say that you are falling for the usual nonsense that is trotted out in the Daily Fail.

    You can't sustain this argument based on some cricketers who happen to have been born somewhere else but are eligible to play for England.

    The reality is that we have, until recently, had a domestic cricket game which was run by amateurs with very little to commend it in the modern era. That's why we have failed as a nation at cricket too often.

    In the last twenty years, that has finally changed. It has taken a long time to filter through to the top of the game. So we have a few who are have learned their basics in South Africa, not in England such as Trott and Petersen? We have always relied on such players even in your terms less pc times so what's the difference? The renewed belief in cricket as a sport to which our youngsters can aspire is the prize of the last few years.

    As for the wider point you are making as to the malaise of patriotism and pride in the country leading to a lack of sporting talent coming through, I just think you are just trying to find a circumstance to fit your argument. Take the Olympic Games for example. Last Olympics our countries sportsmen secured the highest number of gold medals for many many years - and the cultural diversity of the performers couldn't have been greater. No sign of the pc malaise there I think?

  • Also I fear a lack of national pride brought on by the PC brigades who consider any hint of patriotism and national pride as akin to fascism, racism and (I am sure) a few other isms.

     

    Ok, how does a rant about political correctness get into the debate about foreign born players in teams representing England? What relevance does it have?

    So rather than focus on the topic at hand, you decide to focus on Lincs perceived PC rant?




    Yes - because it's irrelevant and boring.

     

     

  • Quote: So we have a few who are have learned their basics in South Africa, not in England such as Trott and Petersen? We have always relied on such players even in your terms less pc times so what's the difference .................

     

    What's the difference?. That is my entire point?; I contend that the difference is that in South Africa for example, omnipresent  PC policies do not hold back individual choices and freedoms which stifle personal progress.

     As to 'our country's' success at the Olympics, most of the winners live and train abroad yet are salaried and expensed through money paid by Camelot . They represent Great Britain, not England. Many are Scots, Irish or Welsh, peoples who are allowed to express nationalistic yearnings and feelings as they are considered to have suffered for centuries under the yoke of 'perfidious Albion' .

  • LA I am sorry you feel the way you do. I couldn't disagree more with the points you make. You seem to me to be taking a preconceived position regarding the decline of English national pride, caused apparently by do gooders and the pc brigade and are trying to apply it to English cricket, which you acknowledge yourself, has always had players who weren't born in England playing for it.

    Some of the issues for the Scots, Welsh and Irish is about how they feel about themselves and their national identity when compared to England and the English. That is their problem not ours. I suspect that a large chunk of English people see themselves as British first then English. That has always been so in my lifetime and suggesting that its all gone down the pan since the "pc squad" have been around is just far too simplistic - indeed wrong in my view.
  • And while we are at it, Dernbach, figures in the SECOND division this season so far: 5 innings 0 runs scored, 12 wickets taken at 33.25 per wicket

                                     Onions, figures in the FIRST division this season so far: 3 innings, 8 runs scored, 18 wickets taken at 27.72 per wicket.

     

    What are Flower and Strauss (and ol Dusty Muller) doing picking Dernbach?. He must be a lovely lad, nice tattoos and earings, and a fun guy to have as a mate in the dressing room. He sure aint been picked due to unanswerable form that demands selection. But after all, he's South African and Onions hails from the North East and a championship winning and leading team.

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