I do genuinely wonder why, when someone sets up a group or initiative to support or celebrate one section of the community, people from outside that group feel compelled to ask the "what about me, what about my type of person?" question.
I do genuinely wonder why, when someone sets up a group or initiative to support or celebrate one section of the community, people from outside that group feel compelled to ask the "what about me, what about my type of person?" question.
I assume as their official title is PROUD valiants they will be posting photos of their members[faces!] so they can be individually congratulated as they arrive at the first home game. Or will they actually form a secret society within the ground with signals to each other so as they can recognise each other but not be recognised. Whilst the chap who was banned was rather unsophisticated in making his point he did have some merit in his arguement in that there is no a]christian addicks group b]single lonely heterosexual valiants group c].....oh I think you get the idea.
But there is nothing to stop anyone forming any of those groups. In fact, I'm incredibly keen on being a founder member of c] as it sounds rather intriguing. Anybody else care to join me?
I do genuinely wonder why, when someone sets up a group or initiative to support or celebrate one section of the community, people from outside that group feel compelled to ask the "what about me, what about my type of person?" question.
Bit like girls joining the cub scouts, how stupid is that
As a white British heterosexual male, as soon as I feel my demographic, race or sexuality needs a voice to stand up against prejudice I'll set up a group.
In the meanwhile, good luck to the proud valiants. Judging by some of the comments here and on Twitter etc it's a very much needed group.
So I think it's brilliant that we have an LGBTQ+ supporters' group. These people are marginalised in society every day, either through people just offhandedly saying "Oh that's so gay" or "Ah you ponce" or whatever so casually that they don't realise - hey, there are people out there who actually ARE gay, and aren't taking their feelings into account. Endless comparisons have been made, either geographical or regarding the disabled group etc etc - I don't think I need to convince anyone why such a group is necessary for supporters of a non cishet orientation.
Time for a bit of a glossary that I hope can help people understand what this is "all about":
L - Lesbian (women who are sexually attracted to other women) G - Gay (men who are sexually attracted to other men) B - Bisexual (men or women who are attracted to both genders) T - Transexual (a person who has a gender identity that is inconsistent with, or not culturally identified with, their assigned sex at birth: i.e. their psychological gender is not the same as their birth sex)
Q - Queer. Now, this is a catch-all term used by people who aren't cisgender (men who identify as men, women who identify as women, the opposite of transgender) to identify as not cisgender. So this encompasses LGBT people, as well as a variety of other gender identities/sexualities/etc that I'll do my absolute best to identify, but I'm no expert (though maybe compared to the average CL reader I'll know a bit).
+ - That's a plus sign. It means anyone else within these groups who doesn't necessarily want to identify as anything of the above. Can also mean an ally - that is to say, a cisgender person (like me) who's supportive of their rights and cause etc.
Let's try and get on to a few other terms.
Non-binary/genderqueer - this is a catch-all term for gender identities that are not exclusively masculine or feminine Transvestite - a person who dresses in a manner commonly societally associated with the opposite sex. Not to be confused with transsexuality or transgenderism. Asexual - someone not interested in sex (i.e. feels no sexual attraction whatsoever). This is distinct from celibacy (choosing not to have sex). Androgyny - a general term for a combination of male and female characteristics.
Phew. That's a lot of stuff. And it barely scratches the surface of the LGBTQ+ community.
If, in setting up a supporters' group that caters to people who identify within the LGBTQ+ community, the club is able to educate (and be educated) on such matters so that there's a better understanding of the myriad struggles that these people go through, and indeed hopefully eradicate prejudice, then that's a good thing. A very good thing indeed.
TL;DR short glossary of terms relating to LGBTQ+ people. Feel free to correct me.
I'm still a bit lost. I declare myself a non bianry csigender intersexer.
Can you answer this situation? At the first game of the season at the valley, if I use the woman's toilets, what would happen? Would I be congratulated for asserting my gender/sexuality thing Or would I be thrown out by security and banned?
THEN goes into meltdown demanding season ticket refund (so he didnt want to go anyway?) and threatening other fans
So club has to do something as he's contacting them directly with messages and e-mails and publicly offering to scrap in the ground.
Dont see an issue tbh other than everyone else sticking their nose in and the usual suspects piping up as it provides an opportunity to have ago at the club
So I think it's brilliant that we have an LGBTQ+ supporters' group. These people are marginalised in society every day, either through people just offhandedly saying "Oh that's so gay" or "Ah you ponce" or whatever so casually that they don't realise - hey, there are people out there who actually ARE gay, and aren't taking their feelings into account. Endless comparisons have been made, either geographical or regarding the disabled group etc etc - I don't think I need to convince anyone why such a group is necessary for supporters of a non cishet orientation.
Time for a bit of a glossary that I hope can help people understand what this is "all about":
L - Lesbian (women who are sexually attracted to other women) G - Gay (men who are sexually attracted to other men) B - Bisexual (men or women who are attracted to both genders) T - Transexual (a person who has a gender identity that is inconsistent with, or not culturally identified with, their assigned sex at birth: i.e. their psychological gender is not the same as their birth sex)
Q - Queer. Now, this is a catch-all term used by people who aren't cisgender (men who identify as men, women who identify as women, the opposite of transgender) to identify as not cisgender. So this encompasses LGBT people, as well as a variety of other gender identities/sexualities/etc that I'll do my absolute best to identify, but I'm no expert (though maybe compared to the average CL reader I'll know a bit).
+ - That's a plus sign. It means anyone else within these groups who doesn't necessarily want to identify as anything of the above. Can also mean an ally - that is to say, a cisgender person (like me) who's supportive of their rights and cause etc.
Let's try and get on to a few other terms.
Non-binary/genderqueer - this is a catch-all term for gender identities that are not exclusively masculine or feminine Transvestite - a person who dresses in a manner commonly societally associated with the opposite sex. Not to be confused with transsexuality or transgenderism. Asexual - someone not interested in sex (i.e. feels no sexual attraction whatsoever). This is distinct from celibacy (choosing not to have sex). Androgyny - a general term for a combination of male and female characteristics.
Phew. That's a lot of stuff. And it barely scratches the surface of the LGBTQ+ community.
If, in setting up a supporters' group that caters to people who identify within the LGBTQ+ community, the club is able to educate (and be educated) on such matters so that there's a better understanding of the myriad struggles that these people go through, and indeed hopefully eradicate prejudice, then that's a good thing. A very good thing indeed.
TL;DR short glossary of terms relating to LGBTQ+ people. Feel free to correct me.
I'm still a bit lost. I declare myself a non bianry csigender intersexer.
Can you answer this situation? At the first game of the season at the valley, if I use the woman's toilets, what would happen? Would I be congratulated for asserting my gender/sexuality thing Or would I be thrown out by security and banned?
If they through you out you could take legal action, that would be discrimination
If someone identifies as a certain gender or genderless then they can use any toilet they feel neesesery
If you decide you no longer feel male or don't feel like you have a particular gender role and you feel like the ladies toilet is best suited and helps with dysthoria
So I think it's brilliant that we have an LGBTQ+ supporters' group. These people are marginalised in society every day, either through people just offhandedly saying "Oh that's so gay" or "Ah you ponce" or whatever so casually that they don't realise - hey, there are people out there who actually ARE gay, and aren't taking their feelings into account. Endless comparisons have been made, either geographical or regarding the disabled group etc etc - I don't think I need to convince anyone why such a group is necessary for supporters of a non cishet orientation.
Time for a bit of a glossary that I hope can help people understand what this is "all about":
L - Lesbian (women who are sexually attracted to other women) G - Gay (men who are sexually attracted to other men) B - Bisexual (men or women who are attracted to both genders) T - Transexual (a person who has a gender identity that is inconsistent with, or not culturally identified with, their assigned sex at birth: i.e. their psychological gender is not the same as their birth sex)
Q - Queer. Now, this is a catch-all term used by people who aren't cisgender (men who identify as men, women who identify as women, the opposite of transgender) to identify as not cisgender. So this encompasses LGBT people, as well as a variety of other gender identities/sexualities/etc that I'll do my absolute best to identify, but I'm no expert (though maybe compared to the average CL reader I'll know a bit).
+ - That's a plus sign. It means anyone else within these groups who doesn't necessarily want to identify as anything of the above. Can also mean an ally - that is to say, a cisgender person (like me) who's supportive of their rights and cause etc.
Let's try and get on to a few other terms.
Non-binary/genderqueer - this is a catch-all term for gender identities that are not exclusively masculine or feminine Transvestite - a person who dresses in a manner commonly societally associated with the opposite sex. Not to be confused with transsexuality or transgenderism. Asexual - someone not interested in sex (i.e. feels no sexual attraction whatsoever). This is distinct from celibacy (choosing not to have sex). Androgyny - a general term for a combination of male and female characteristics.
Phew. That's a lot of stuff. And it barely scratches the surface of the LGBTQ+ community.
If, in setting up a supporters' group that caters to people who identify within the LGBTQ+ community, the club is able to educate (and be educated) on such matters so that there's a better understanding of the myriad struggles that these people go through, and indeed hopefully eradicate prejudice, then that's a good thing. A very good thing indeed.
TL;DR short glossary of terms relating to LGBTQ+ people. Feel free to correct me.
I'm still a bit lost. I declare myself a non bianry csigender intersexer.
Can you answer this situation? At the first game of the season at the valley, if I use the woman's toilets, what would happen? Would I be congratulated for asserting my gender/sexuality thing Or would I be thrown out by security and banned?
If they through you out you could take legal action, that would be discrimination
If someone identifies as a certain gender or genderless then they can use any toilet they feel neesesery
So just to confirm. I can use any khazi I like. There's sweet FA security can do, the new LGBTIQ+ group will back me up and I won't be regarded as a dirty old perv?
All hail the age of equality
You gotta be in there for the legit reason of spending a penny or having a smoke though Smudge, if you're caught sniffing the rims of the pans, you're out!
I do always genuinely wonder what the response would be if someone wanted to create a say 'English, White and Proud' Charlton supporters group??
Would it be accepted in the way this group rightly is by the majority of people or would there be a negative OTT response to what is a legitimate reason on the face of it for creating a group? And before someone says 'Well go and create one if thats what you want" - well thats not the point at all really. I'm just interested in how certain people get offended at certain things and can be quite hypocrytical on these matters? And I beleive the police attention for one would be all over the aforementioned group.
None of this makes sense. It would seem to me that you have missed the whole point of why these groups exist. What would be the need for the 'English, White and Proud' group?
I do always genuinely wonder what the response would be if someone wanted to create a say 'English, White and Proud' Charlton supporters group??
Would it be accepted in the way this group rightly is by the majority of people or would there be a negative OTT response to what is a legitimate reason on the face of it for creating a group? And before someone says 'Well go and create one if thats what you want" - well thats not the point at all really. I'm just interested in how certain people get offended at certain things and can be quite hypocrytical on these matters? And I beleive the police attention for one would be all over the aforementioned group.
None of this makes sense. It would seem to me that you have missed the whole point of why these groups exist. What would be the need for the 'English, White and Proud' group?
Makes perfect sense, I believe the point he's trying to make is that should there be a group created called "english white and proud" there would be uproar.
People on here may take the piss because it's football
But I guarantee behind the hard man football shit, there are people who are registered and who may even post on here, who have a Son/Daughter/Other or perhaps extended family member who perhaps come under LGBT+, so how about think about what people are saying
Charlton is a family club that shows respect to everyone (bar wall' and palace)
Ultimately my guess would be the whole idea of the group was for a support reason, not to get into peoples faces like LOOK WE ARE LGBT AND PROUD BLAH IN UR FACE
One word
Respect
Just like how straight people are respected
Because someone is lgbt don't make them any different to you
THEN goes into meltdown demanding season ticket refund (so he didnt want to go anyway?) and threatening other fans
So club has to do something as he's contacting them directly with messages and e-mails and publicly offering to scrap in the ground.
Dont see an issue tbh other than everyone else sticking their nose in and the usual suspects piping up as it provides an opportunity to have ago at the club
So I think it's brilliant that we have an LGBTQ+ supporters' group. These people are marginalised in society every day, either through people just offhandedly saying "Oh that's so gay" or "Ah you ponce" or whatever so casually that they don't realise - hey, there are people out there who actually ARE gay, and aren't taking their feelings into account. Endless comparisons have been made, either geographical or regarding the disabled group etc etc - I don't think I need to convince anyone why such a group is necessary for supporters of a non cishet orientation.
Time for a bit of a glossary that I hope can help people understand what this is "all about":
L - Lesbian (women who are sexually attracted to other women) G - Gay (men who are sexually attracted to other men) B - Bisexual (men or women who are attracted to both genders) T - Transexual (a person who has a gender identity that is inconsistent with, or not culturally identified with, their assigned sex at birth: i.e. their psychological gender is not the same as their birth sex)
Q - Queer. Now, this is a catch-all term used by people who aren't cisgender (men who identify as men, women who identify as women, the opposite of transgender) to identify as not cisgender. So this encompasses LGBT people, as well as a variety of other gender identities/sexualities/etc that I'll do my absolute best to identify, but I'm no expert (though maybe compared to the average CL reader I'll know a bit).
+ - That's a plus sign. It means anyone else within these groups who doesn't necessarily want to identify as anything of the above. Can also mean an ally - that is to say, a cisgender person (like me) who's supportive of their rights and cause etc.
Let's try and get on to a few other terms.
Non-binary/genderqueer - this is a catch-all term for gender identities that are not exclusively masculine or feminine Transvestite - a person who dresses in a manner commonly societally associated with the opposite sex. Not to be confused with transsexuality or transgenderism. Asexual - someone not interested in sex (i.e. feels no sexual attraction whatsoever). This is distinct from celibacy (choosing not to have sex). Androgyny - a general term for a combination of male and female characteristics.
Phew. That's a lot of stuff. And it barely scratches the surface of the LGBTQ+ community.
If, in setting up a supporters' group that caters to people who identify within the LGBTQ+ community, the club is able to educate (and be educated) on such matters so that there's a better understanding of the myriad struggles that these people go through, and indeed hopefully eradicate prejudice, then that's a good thing. A very good thing indeed.
TL;DR short glossary of terms relating to LGBTQ+ people. Feel free to correct me.
I'm still a bit lost. I declare myself a non bianry csigender intersexer.
Can you answer this situation? At the first game of the season at the valley, if I use the woman's toilets, what would happen? Would I be congratulated for asserting my gender/sexuality thing Or would I be thrown out by security and banned?
I'm an advocate of unisex toilets personally, but in answer to your question: Do you have friends/family/potentially documentation or certification that would, in the event you decide to make a legal challenge should you do this and be kicked out/banned, support your gender identity as being a (presumably pre-op) male-to-female transexual? If so then fair enough, you have a case for discrimination, but somehow I doubt that you have any "evidence" suggesting you're female...
I assume as their official title is PROUD valiants they will be posting photos of their members[faces!] so they can be individually congratulated as they arrive at the first home game. Or will they actually form a secret society within the ground with signals to each other so as they can recognise each other but not be recognised. Whilst the chap who was banned was rather unsophisticated in making his point he did have some merit in his arguement in that there is no a]christian addicks group b]single lonely heterosexual valiants group c].....oh I think you get the idea.
Go for it, single heterosexuals have really had to go through hard times in modern society I'm sure loads of people will sign up to get their problems across.
Why do some twats assume that because somebody is gay, they are overly camp or would make some secret codesign of some sort, some people like you really don't make sence, you could look at the hardest tallest most masculine guy in the north upper, he could still be not straight unless you personly know him and his life style,
Dont judge a book by its cover, I know some REALLY CAMP guys who are as straight as anything
This was the point I was driving at earlier. A "masculine/non camp" gay bloke is not going to have anything much in common with a transvestite or transgender person so why lump them all in together? It is potentially insulting to assume (if that be the case) that there is some underlying common sexual attraction between these different minorities and absent that, why are they all lumped together?
I do always genuinely wonder what the response would be if someone wanted to create a say 'English, White and Proud' Charlton supporters group??
Would it be accepted in the way this group rightly is by the majority of people or would there be a negative OTT response to what is a legitimate reason on the face of it for creating a group? And before someone says 'Well go and create one if thats what you want" - well thats not the point at all really. I'm just interested in how certain people get offended at certain things and can be quite hypocrytical on these matters? And I beleive the police attention for one would be all over the aforementioned group.
None of this makes sense. It would seem to me that you have missed the whole point of why these groups exist. What would be the need for the 'English, White and Proud' group?
Makes perfect sense, I believe the point he's trying to make is that should there be a group created called "english white and proud" there would be uproar.
What would the sense and reason for the 'english white and proud' group be?
This is becoming the silly season, Does anyone know of a Transgender person who goes to CAFC ?
I regularly sit with a transgender person at The Valley (10 or so games last season).
(I also met a high-profile transgender activist in the Rose of Denmark before the Norwich game but she's a Norwich fan, so not what you were talking about).
I personally think The Valley should be welcoming to all. Any group can self-organise as Charlton fans if they see a need: Conservatives have been mentioned, as have heterosexuals. Personally, as a heterosexual, I feel no need to be in a group that proclaims this because I don't have my identity as a heterosexual Charlton fan regularly questioned or assumed by others not to exist. But if others do, there's nothing to stop them setting up such a group.
On Monday Charlton Athletic announced their support of us as their official LGBT group, the response from the fans on the whole has been very positive - so thank you. Yesterday, however the club made the decision to ban a fan from future matches because of his responses to the formation of the group on Twitter. As a group we of course are in favour of free speech, it is something that the LGBT community has battled for years for. What is totally unacceptable however is when free speech is used as a cover for prejudice or any suggestion of violence that could amount to a hate crime. This sort of 'free speech' cannot and will not be tolerated - the idea of one Charlton supporter threatening any sort of violence to another is to us disgusting.
We are more than happy to discuss why our group is needed with anyone who is truly interested. We are not trying to promote our sexuality, we are simply another supporters group. We understand this sort of group being endorsed by CAFC is a difficult change for some of you, rest assured we are not trying to damage Charlton’s reputation. Each of us involved have CAFC in our veins like every true fan does. We however have a right to feel safe in any stadium. Why should we have to accept having to put up with homophobic abuse being shouted at opposing team players or even sometimes our own? It's not funny and it’s uneducated. When someone shouts "poof" or "queer" at somebody - what are they suggesting? - that the person this language is directed at is weaker or a less capable member of society? Since the club’s launch yesterday we have received a number of emails from fans expressing how good it is to know there is a group like the Proud Valiants, many who identify as LGBT - the majority have indicated incidents in the past where they felt uncomfortable and not been able to enjoy that particular game.
For those beautiful 90 minutes during a match, we are all Charlton, LGBT fans feel the same rush of pleasure when the ball hits the back of the net, the not being able to look when we are faced with a set piece and the heartbreak when we are walking home after a loss. We are not there to hurt anyone, we may want to meet for drinks at an away match at a venue we feel at ease in. There may sometimes be a need to support each other through difficult issues and we shall take a stance fighting homophobia in all sport. By the way many clubs have LGBT groups in the UK - so we or CAFC really are not being revolutionary.
We feel that no abuse to any supporter should be tolerated and as mentioned earlier we are happy to discuss the fears any supporter may have, we are all fans of one of the greatest clubs in the World. Some feel that the action of the club was unfair - to those people we ask to think whether you would want any individual who threatens a fellow fan to be associated with you or your club? Sometimes there are cases where education can win through however in the case of this fan we are not sure he would want to discuss anything with us - his tweets were homophobic and threatening and could possibly be considered as a form of hate crime. We therefore fully support the club’s decision and in no way feel they were heavy handed in this matter.
I do genuinely wonder why, when someone sets up a group or initiative to support or celebrate one section of the community, people from outside that group feel compelled to ask the "what about me, what about my type of person?" question.
Bit like girls joining the cub scouts, how stupid is that
It's not stupid at all. Plenty of girls have joined the cub pack I help lead because they want something they feel is preferable to being in the Brownies.
Good on 'em. And good on the club for telling that arsehole to do one.
I know it's easy to prefer a simple life with no hassle. But we're a club that's always been proud of our community links. A little skirmish with a small-minded fool is better than being seen to tolerate that kind of crap.
Comments
In the meanwhile, good luck to the proud valiants. Judging by some of the comments here and on Twitter etc it's a very much needed group.
Gets called out on it
------- if it stops here theres no issue
THEN goes into meltdown demanding season ticket refund (so he didnt want to go anyway?) and threatening other fans
So club has to do something as he's contacting them directly with messages and e-mails and publicly offering to scrap in the ground.
Dont see an issue tbh other than everyone else sticking their nose in and the usual suspects piping up as it provides an opportunity to have ago at the club
If someone identifies as a certain gender or genderless then they can use any toilet they feel neesesery
Then yeah pretty much
But I guarantee behind the hard man football shit, there are people who are registered and who may even post on here, who have a Son/Daughter/Other or perhaps extended family member who perhaps come under LGBT+, so how about think about what people are saying
Charlton is a family club that shows respect to everyone (bar wall' and palace)
Ultimately my guess would be the whole idea of the group was for a support reason, not to get into peoples faces like LOOK WE ARE LGBT AND PROUD BLAH IN UR FACE
One word
Respect
Just like how straight people are respected
Because someone is lgbt don't make them any different to you
(I also met a high-profile transgender activist in the Rose of Denmark before the Norwich game but she's a Norwich fan, so not what you were talking about).
I personally think The Valley should be welcoming to all. Any group can self-organise as Charlton fans if they see a need: Conservatives have been mentioned, as have heterosexuals. Personally, as a heterosexual, I feel no need to be in a group that proclaims this because I don't have my identity as a heterosexual Charlton fan regularly questioned or assumed by others not to exist. But if others do, there's nothing to stop them setting up such a group.
Proud Valiants
2 hrs ·
On Monday Charlton Athletic announced their support of us as their official LGBT group, the response from the fans on the whole has been very positive - so thank you. Yesterday, however the club made the decision to ban a fan from future matches because of his responses to the formation of the group on Twitter. As a group we of course are in favour of free speech, it is something that the LGBT community has battled for years for. What is totally unacceptable however is when free speech is used as a cover for prejudice or any suggestion of violence that could amount to a hate crime. This sort of 'free speech' cannot and will not be tolerated - the idea of one Charlton supporter threatening any sort of violence to another is to us disgusting.
We are more than happy to discuss why our group is needed with anyone who is truly interested. We are not trying to promote our sexuality, we are simply another supporters group. We understand this sort of group being endorsed by CAFC is a difficult change for some of you, rest assured we are not trying to damage Charlton’s reputation. Each of us involved have CAFC in our veins like every true fan does. We however have a right to feel safe in any stadium. Why should we have to accept having to put up with homophobic abuse being shouted at opposing team players or even sometimes our own? It's not funny and it’s uneducated. When someone shouts "poof" or "queer" at somebody - what are they suggesting? - that the person this language is directed at is weaker or a less capable member of society? Since the club’s launch yesterday we have received a number of emails from fans expressing how good it is to know there is a group like the Proud Valiants, many who identify as LGBT - the majority have indicated incidents in the past where they felt uncomfortable and not been able to enjoy that particular game.
For those beautiful 90 minutes during a match, we are all Charlton, LGBT fans feel the same rush of pleasure when the ball hits the back of the net, the not being able to look when we are faced with a set piece and the heartbreak when we are walking home after a loss. We are not there to hurt anyone, we may want to meet for drinks at an away match at a venue we feel at ease in. There may sometimes be a need to support each other through difficult issues and we shall take a stance fighting homophobia in all sport. By the way many clubs have LGBT groups in the UK - so we or CAFC really are not being revolutionary.
We feel that no abuse to any supporter should be tolerated and as mentioned earlier we are happy to discuss the fears any supporter may have, we are all fans of one of the greatest clubs in the World. Some feel that the action of the club was unfair - to those people we ask to think whether you would want any individual who threatens a fellow fan to be associated with you or your club? Sometimes there are cases where education can win through however in the case of this fan we are not sure he would want to discuss anything with us - his tweets were homophobic and threatening and could possibly be considered as a form of hate crime. We therefore fully support the club’s decision and in no way feel they were heavy handed in this matter.
Plenty of girls have joined the cub pack I help lead because they want something they feel is preferable to being in the Brownies.
I know it's easy to prefer a simple life with no hassle. But we're a club that's always been proud of our community links. A little skirmish with a small-minded fool is better than being seen to tolerate that kind of crap.