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Sheff Weds Decision 12 points Next season

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  • Thommo said:
    There are a lot of fans from across the Football league that are annoyed about this decision, I was amazed just how many. They don’t often achieve much, but has anyone seen a petition to the EFL about this? I’m sure thousands would sign one. 
    One can set up a Parliamentary petition. Not sure on the words to use but I am sure it would help.
  • Sadly, I suspect I will have read significantly more of the letters addressed to Rick Parry than he will. Probably 100% more.
  • This decision was crap,and EFL know it,the announcement was perfectly time to coincide with FA cup final weekend so it would get minimal coverage.However,they may have done us a favour as I do not see how we could possibly get a squad together to compete at championship level in time,bearing in mind we have about 12 players and an embargo at the moment,hey ho happy days.
  • The whole situation is a mess. If Charlton appeal how do they plan for next season? As it stands they are in league One next season and any player signings will have to reflect that. (assuming the transfer embargo was lifted and we have a club) No players with Championship ambitions and wages will sign for Charlton with no guarantees that they would be in the Championship next season. However if they did assemble a decent league One squad, and they won the appeal they would go in with a squad unprepared to the Championship and a season of struggle could follow. I can't see how we can avoid relegation by appealing due to the time constraints but it may still be worth it for claiming compensation for lost TV money / gates etc for being wrongfully relegated. 

    Of course the ownership of the club is the most important and like most fans I would rather have a club in League One with decent owners (Barclay / Varney) than be in constant turmoil with the risk of no future in whether that be the Championship or League One.   
  • edited August 2020
    I think another option is to be compensated although it would be good to get that with decent owners. Ultimately I would rather have a club in the Premier League with decent owners, but that is the best scenario. We are currently looking at a club in League One with shitter than shit owners. Only one league up from potentially the worst scenario at this time.
  • WSSWSS
    edited August 2020


    Thus, had Wigan achieved enough points to take the 12 point hit and still avoid relegation then the sanction would have applied next season
    That's not true. It would only have applied next season in league one if they had got relegated without the deduction.

    https://www.efl.com/news/2020/july/efl-statement-wigan-athletic/
  • edited August 2020
    I suppose the EFL would argue that Wigan had the opportunity to defeat the punishment on the pitch. I think this is a ridiculous argument personally. It makes sense that a team is punished the season it goes into administration. It is a fixed punishment and can't be vague.

    The punishment for Wednesday and Birmingham is more complicated as there can be a lag between the season the crime happened in and the season it came to light and then even the season the club was found guilty. You are not found guilty of going into administration, you do or you don't. So it gives the scope to manipulate the punishment date. This is dangerously, messy for a useless organisation like the EFL and it should be the club is punished in the season they are found guilty. It should be as simple as that with no manipulation.

    Now technically, Wednesday were found guilty this season as the Championship season has not ended. But what is more outrageous is that the EFL clearly tried to delay the outcome. I suspect they were worried that an appeal may threaten the integrity of the league where they have to know who is playing in what division by x time. There is no way it should have taken that long from charges in November 2019. This is where I am sure a bit of digging would expose the EFL.

    Ultimately, it feels wrong that a crime like this is not an automatic relegation. Cheating in this way gives a team an unfair advantage that might make them more likely to avoid the punishment on the pitch.
  • It's the way this whole thing looks to the wider football world as well.

    Leaving aside Charlton - Sheffield Weds have retained Championship status, 16th place finish this season and Sky-Bet TV money the next having cheated the rules, been found guilty and had the points deduction applied not this season but next.

    Whereas, Wigan - who didn't cheat but were shafted by their owners- have an automatic 12 point deduction applied this season for going into Administration and are relegated.

    But remember - when the 12 point deduction for Wigan was announced the EFL said it would only apply this season if it would lead to Wigan's relegation, otherwise it was to apply next season

    Thus, had Wigan achieved enough points to take the 12 point hit and still avoid relegation then the sanction would have applied next season.

    So why was the same caveat not applied in Wednesday's case?
    - i.e. points deduction this season if it led to Wednesday's relegation, otherwise points deduction next season. 

    They have reversed the Wigan caveat in the case of Wednesday.
    Thus, NO RELEGATION for Wednesday if a points deduction this season would lead to that happening and the sanction to apply only to next season

    So, EFL - why?  I look forward to seeing the reasons disclosed asap.




    Agree that Wigan have been shafted, but that middle part isn't correct.

    The 12 points for Wigan would only be deferred to 2020/21 IF they were relegated on the pitch already without any deduction. As that wasn't the case, the 12 points apply this season whether it results in them going down or not. 

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  • edited August 2020
    It does seem strange though. What if Wigan had enough points to safely stay up with the deduction? Would they just be given the 12 points? 
  • I can't really see the point of this thread. Yes we have been shafted and the whole process stinks, but other than possible financial compensation we will get nothing out of bleating. 

    The fixtures are out shortly and I am told before the deadline for Wednesday to advise if accepting or appealing the decision. Any appeal will take forever on past experiences. No matter how wronged we've been,  we need to concentrate on saving our club and Gallen needs to push ahead with the establishment of a div one squad. 
  • Why?

    The rule isn't automatic relegation, it's a 12 point deduction.

    The reason it would apply next season is to stop people going into admin "on purpose" so they don't suffer the deduction the season after.
  • edited August 2020
    I would think an effective punishment system would be - If you gain enough points for the play offs - the 12 points deduction can be applied to cost you your play off place. If you are above the relegation places, the 12 point deduction can send you down. If the deduction has no material affect in this season, it should carry on to next. Ok, it could be avoided the next season, but it becomes a bigger punishment and this should apply to all punishments.

    As people have said, Wednesday have to win three more games than some potentially weak promoted teams. They could quite easily achieve this. There was an opportunity to actually punish them this season.
  • But that would be punishing teams twice. It's like giving a penalty against a team and if your keeper saves it then the other teams gets given the goal anyway.
  • edited August 2020
    WSS said:
    Why?

    The rule isn't automatic relegation, it's a 12 point deduction.

    The reason it would apply next season is to stop people going into admin "on purpose" so they don't suffer the deduction the season after.
    The system as it is now was set up to stop teams who were already relegated going into administration without any penalty.  If you were rock bottom, 20 points off 4th from last place in March then you could go into administration then & there, take a 12 point hit without any repercussions as you were down already. I believe this it what Southampton did when they dropped into League 1. Went into administration at the end of the season, got a 12 point deduction which did f... all. They then cleared the club of debt (with creditors getting very little back- something like 10p in the £) and restarted again. Bought good players & managed to get out of League 1 at the first attempt  Now look at them. 

    It is now a deterrent as if you tried that now the 12 point deduction would apply in the new season. 
  • WSS said:
    But that would be punishing teams twice. It's like giving a penalty against a team and if your keeper saves it then the other teams gets given the goal anyway.
    True if you compare to a penalty. I don't think it is punishing a team twice as if a team escapes punishment they have not been punished.
  • Sky just a sports lawyer on who looked about 14. Spoke very well for about 15 minutes and didn’t say anything. Commentator was a bit frustrated. I hope they weren’t paying him.
  • WSS said:
    Why?

    The rule isn't automatic relegation, it's a 12 point deduction.

    The reason it would apply next season is to stop people going into admin "on purpose" so they don't suffer the deduction the season after.
    The system as it is now was set up to stop teams who were already relegated going into administration without any penalty.  If you were rock bottom, 20 points off 4th from last place in March then you could go into administration then & there, take a 12 point hit without any repercussions as you were down already. I believe this it what Southampton did when they dropped into League 1. Went into administration at the end of the season, got a 12 point deduction which did f... all. They then cleared the club of debt (with creditors getting very little back- something like 10p in the £) and restarted again. Bought good players & managed to get out of League 1 at the first attempt  Now look at them. 

    It is now a deterrent as if you tried that now the 12 point deduction would apply in the new season. 

    Southampton were deducted points which were carried over as a result of their relegation for the start of the 2009/10 season in League One.


    They were then promoted the following season.

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  • WSS said:


    Thus, had Wigan achieved enough points to take the 12 point hit and still avoid relegation then the sanction would have applied next season
    That's not true. It would only have applied next season in league one if they had got relegated without the deduction.

    https://www.efl.com/news/2020/july/efl-statement-wigan-athletic/
    ok, so I've got it the wrong way round then?
    good to know before I took that elsewhere !!!!
  • Sorry, I have not read all of this thread but heard on Sky today by an expert that any appeal by Charlton would never succeed. First Weds have to appeal if they choose to, which will take about four weeks before they will listen to any appeal by Charlton, which will mean that next season will be soon to start and they cannot delay next season any more. Stop hoping our leaders have any intention of appealing, it is just to try and keep fans happy
  • West2003 said:
    WSS said:
    Why?

    The rule isn't automatic relegation, it's a 12 point deduction.

    The reason it would apply next season is to stop people going into admin "on purpose" so they don't suffer the deduction the season after.
    The system as it is now was set up to stop teams who were already relegated going into administration without any penalty.  If you were rock bottom, 20 points off 4th from last place in March then you could go into administration then & there, take a 12 point hit without any repercussions as you were down already. I believe this it what Southampton did when they dropped into League 1. Went into administration at the end of the season, got a 12 point deduction which did f... all. They then cleared the club of debt (with creditors getting very little back- something like 10p in the £) and restarted again. Bought good players & managed to get out of League 1 at the first attempt  Now look at them. 

    It is now a deterrent as if you tried that now the 12 point deduction would apply in the new season. 

    Southampton were deducted points which were carried over as a result of their relegation for the start of the 2009/10 season in League One.


    They were then promoted the following season.

    Oops.....my bad. Having just read their history of that period I fund that after relegation to League one they bought Rickie Lambert who became the Golden Boot winner 3 years out of 4. They paid in excess of £1m, which for a team who had just come out of administration was pretty good going. £1m in 2009 I would expect equates to double that now. I cant remember us spending anything like that over the past 10 years......
  • edited August 2020
    7 clubs backing us.
    Does this mean 16 don't back us?
  • Charlton get backing of rivals over Sheffield Wednesday points penalty delay

    Matt Lawton Chief Sports Correspondent
    Tuesday August 04 2020, 12.01am, The Times
    Charlton were relegated with 48 points
    Charlton were relegated with 48 points

    Charlton Athletic have received support from as many as seven Sky Bet Championship clubs after threatening to launch a legal challenge against the controversial decision to delay a 12-point deduction for Sheffield Wednesday until next season.

    Wednesday have been sanctioned by an independent panel for a serious breach of the EFL’s profit and sustainability rules and would have been relegated instead of Charlton had the points been deducted this season. As it was, a process that started with an EFL charge last November — and revelations in The Times two months prior to that — was only completed last week.

    Charlton have now written to the EFL challenging the decision to delay the sanction until next season. Club sources say that they have also received written support from “six or seven Championship clubs”. Charlton were relegated with 48 points. Wednesday finished the season with 56 points.

    Wednesday were punished for including the £38 million profit for the £60 million “sale” of Hillsborough to a company owned by the club’s chairman and owner, Dejphon Chansiri, in their 2018 accounts, thus enabling them to be financially compliant, when Land Registry documents dated the purchase almost 12 months later.In a statement last week Charlton said they were “considering a legal challenge following the news that Sheffield Wednesday will receive a sporting sanction that will take effect in the 2020-21 season”.“We fail to understand why the deduction will take place next season rather than the current season, which seems to be irrational, and are writing to the EFL to get an explanation of the justification,” added the statement.Yesterday the Charlton Athletic Supporters’ Trust described the decision by the panel, which is due to publish its written reasons, as a “massive injustice”.In a statement the trust said: “Charlton’s last hope of retaining Championship status was dashed on Friday evening when the news emerged that the independent disciplinary commission appointed by the EFL had reached a decision to hand Sheffield Wednesday a 12-point deduction, but with the punishment to be imposed next season.“Wednesday evaded sanctions for breaching financial fair play rules in 2018-19 by selling their stadium to themselves (which is permitted) but posting the income into their accounts for the previous year. The 12 point deduction is, however, not for misconduct, but for the original breach of FFP. The issue of course is in the timing of the deduction.“It seems completely unjust and illogical therefore that the sanction should not also have been applied for the 2019-20 season.“Both Sheffield Wednesday and the EFL can appeal against the decision but the EFL are unlikely to. Both parties will await the written reasons and will consult with their legal teams.“Should either party decide to appeal it could still be up to a month before any appeal process could begin and the written reasons might not be made public for some time as releasing the information might prejudice the process.“The new season kicks off in six weeks, leading to the conclusion that the reason for the postponement of the sanction is pragmatic. However, that does not excuse the failure to start the investigation earlier nor to set and enforce an appropriate deadline for its completion. We are left feeling this is a massive injustice.”
  • You imagine the clubs supporting us will have clean finances themselves, so not the likes of Derby or Reading

    The likes of Barnsley, Luton, Preston, Millwall (so they can get their guaranteed 6 points next season), Middlesbrough (who've been vocal on FFP) and maybe Birmingham who've had plenty of deductions themselves, all done in the same season
  •  Club sources say that they have also received written support from “six or seven Championship clubs”

    6 or 7 ??? not sure whether to include ourselves in the number I see 
  • Unlike the premier league, your position in the end of season table doesn’t bring you more prize money. So any point reduction that bring relegation is meaningless.

     The EFL need to do either of two things, prize money on final position, where a points reduction will hit the club (better still the club loses all prize money) or automatically relegate any club found guilty of cheating.
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