I still think Beale is a fantastic coach, but his as untried and tested as Jacko was.
Any experienced manager dropping down is doing it for a reason, if they’re that good why aren’t they managing at a higher level?
A young manager stepping up is just as big a gamble, maybe like Powell and Bowyer they’re at the right club at the right time and won’t be able to recreate the success they’ve had.
We could get a proven solid League 1 manager like Robinson but I’d rather gamble on Beale being a lot better.
I don't buy this good managers become bad bit at all. You have to look at the whole thing in the round. Why are managers successful in one job then fail in two. Probably because all things aren't equal.
There are 44 teams in the two divisions above us. Without looking I would guess that half, at least, have changed managers in the last 18 months. Did they all become bad managers? Admittedly some of them probably were never very good and just poor appointments but I suspect if you look at it most of them would have a lot of other considerations as well.
Such as the board sold their star striker in January, they had a relatively small budget, the CE was to busy getting an official noddle partner in North Korea to buy the striker they needed etc etc.
Managers like players can also improve or decline, so I don’t agree that good managers are always good managers and success is mainly down to the circumstances.
As balham said the issue is working out who are the genuinely good managers and who has only done well due to having circumstances in their favour.
I just don’t see bringing in someone who’s had a couple of promotions from this division as any more of a guarantee than taking a chance on say Taylor or Beale. Logically getting the experienced manager makes success more likely (hence TS appointing Adkins) but we know there are plenty of examples where it doesn’t work that way in reality.
But with some exceptions most managers fall into the decent bracket, don't they?
There are some who are exceptionally good or exceptionally bad but generally speaking. If you go through our managers since Curbishley, they have all ultimately failed. If you exclude the 2 who were totally unsuitable for the job and haven't had a similar job before or since, most of them have done about as well as you would expect, when you consider the circumstances haven't they?
The clear exception, in my opinion was Pardew in the championship.
If Powell came back now would you expect him to get 100+ points next season? I wouldn't. Is he a worse manager now.......
Most do yes which is why I’d rather gamble on Beale or similar than go for another Robinson or Adkins.
Agree on the points about our managers since Curbs. Who was the totally unsuitable one other than Fraeye? I’ve probably forgotten someone really obvious.
Powell is an example of your first point, he’ll do well if it all comes together but he’s not good enough to overachieve when the situation makes things a lot more difficult - I doubt he’d have kept that 15/16 squad in the Championship for example, very few managers would have done.
How many managers ever over achieve for more than a very short period of time though?
Every clubs success comes when everything comes together doesn't it?
Les Reed is the other one BTW.
I’d rather we over achieved for a year or two than not achieve at all.
Not sure what you’re saying, is it that we should go for an experienced manager rather than Beale? That was the point originally made in the first comment in this set of quotes.
Of course, wasn’t thinking as far back as Reed.
No the original point was basically past performance, or lack of, doesn't really paint any sort of picture at all, without context.
As an example you can't compare Adkins's success at Southampton with his failed here and draw the conclusion he is "yesterday's man". Different players, different owners, different opponents, different staff.
You originally said that a manager who had been at a higher level would only come here because they couldn't get a job at a higher level because they aren't good enough any more, or words to that effect.
Dyche probably will end up getting a big championship job but is that because he isnt good enough, any more, to be a Premier League one?
It’s broadly true though of course there are exceptions. If a manager is rated as a Championship level manager with the amount of managerial changes that happen they’ve got a good chance of getting another job at that level.
In the same way we can’t assume Adkins is a great manager based on him managing a very well funded Southampton team who had various players who went on to impress at a much higher level than League 1.
That’s an assumption on Dyche but probably true due to his style of football putting Prem clubs off.
At the same time we can't say that Adkins isn't a good manager because of his time here. Or Reading, or Hull because of exactly the same reason.
Big Mick got stick for not taking Ipswich back up but the season they sacked him they went down....
With Dyche, could he have kept Burnley up playing tiki taka? Almost certainly not. Big Sam didn't play that style when he had the players at Bolton to not. Would Dyche play like that if he had unlimited resource, I would suggest not.
Almost everyone, including the dinosaurs and yesterday's men have all the badges, circumstances are a bigger factor in success or not.
I reckon the reason for the delay is because the manager is still in post & their season hasn't finished.
So I'm going for Beale.
I dont think or understand why if anyone like Beale has accepted the job it would necessitate being kept quiet. I think both clubs would probably announce it saying he's joining us at end of season.
It's not a controversial appointment that will destabilise either club as if it were guardiola or klopp moving on somewhere with lots to play for.
I'd say outside of villa, rangers and charlton Beale isn't really big news in the football world and whilst I'll be delighted if he joins us and villa will lose an apparently excellent coach I can't see why it would be hushed up until villa complete their dead rubber this weekend.
Man C v A Villa on Sunday. If Beale is the brains behind Villa, then his announced departure could effect who wins The Premier League?
I would say the £15m bonus Villa get for Grealish becoming PL Champion would have more Impact on who wins the Premier League
I still think Beale is a fantastic coach, but his as untried and tested as Jacko was.
Any experienced manager dropping down is doing it for a reason, if they’re that good why aren’t they managing at a higher level?
A young manager stepping up is just as big a gamble, maybe like Powell and Bowyer they’re at the right club at the right time and won’t be able to recreate the success they’ve had.
We could get a proven solid League 1 manager like Robinson but I’d rather gamble on Beale being a lot better.
I don't buy this good managers become bad bit at all. You have to look at the whole thing in the round. Why are managers successful in one job then fail in two. Probably because all things aren't equal.
There are 44 teams in the two divisions above us. Without looking I would guess that half, at least, have changed managers in the last 18 months. Did they all become bad managers? Admittedly some of them probably were never very good and just poor appointments but I suspect if you look at it most of them would have a lot of other considerations as well.
Such as the board sold their star striker in January, they had a relatively small budget, the CE was to busy getting an official noddle partner in North Korea to buy the striker they needed etc etc.
Managers like players can also improve or decline, so I don’t agree that good managers are always good managers and success is mainly down to the circumstances.
As balham said the issue is working out who are the genuinely good managers and who has only done well due to having circumstances in their favour.
I just don’t see bringing in someone who’s had a couple of promotions from this division as any more of a guarantee than taking a chance on say Taylor or Beale. Logically getting the experienced manager makes success more likely (hence TS appointing Adkins) but we know there are plenty of examples where it doesn’t work that way in reality.
But with some exceptions most managers fall into the decent bracket, don't they?
There are some who are exceptionally good or exceptionally bad but generally speaking. If you go through our managers since Curbishley, they have all ultimately failed. If you exclude the 2 who were totally unsuitable for the job and haven't had a similar job before or since, most of them have done about as well as you would expect, when you consider the circumstances haven't they?
The clear exception, in my opinion was Pardew in the championship.
If Powell came back now would you expect him to get 100+ points next season? I wouldn't. Is he a worse manager now.......
Most do yes which is why I’d rather gamble on Beale or similar than go for another Robinson or Adkins.
Agree on the points about our managers since Curbs. Who was the totally unsuitable one other than Fraeye? I’ve probably forgotten someone really obvious.
Powell is an example of your first point, he’ll do well if it all comes together but he’s not good enough to overachieve when the situation makes things a lot more difficult - I doubt he’d have kept that 15/16 squad in the Championship for example, very few managers would have done.
How many managers ever over achieve for more than a very short period of time though?
Every clubs success comes when everything comes together doesn't it?
Les Reed is the other one BTW.
I’d rather we over achieved for a year or two than not achieve at all.
Not sure what you’re saying, is it that we should go for an experienced manager rather than Beale? That was the point originally made in the first comment in this set of quotes.
Of course, wasn’t thinking as far back as Reed.
No the original point was basically past performance, or lack of, doesn't really paint any sort of picture at all, without context.
As an example you can't compare Adkins's success at Southampton with his failed here and draw the conclusion he is "yesterday's man". Different players, different owners, different opponents, different staff.
You originally said that a manager who had been at a higher level would only come here because they couldn't get a job at a higher level because they aren't good enough any more, or words to that effect.
Dyche probably will end up getting a big championship job but is that because he isnt good enough, any more, to be a Premier League one?
It’s broadly true though of course there are exceptions. If a manager is rated as a Championship level manager with the amount of managerial changes that happen they’ve got a good chance of getting another job at that level.
In the same way we can’t assume Adkins is a great manager based on him managing a very well funded Southampton team who had various players who went on to impress at a much higher level than League 1.
That’s an assumption on Dyche but probably true due to his style of football putting Prem clubs off.
At the same time we can't say that Adkins isn't a good manager because of his time here. Or Reading, or Hull because of exactly the same reason.
Big Mick got stick for not taking Ipswich back up but the season they sacked him they went down....
With Dyche, could he have kept Burnley up playing tiki taka? Almost certainly not. Big Sam didn't play that style when he had the players at Bolton to not. Would Dyche play like that if he had unlimited resource, I would suggest not.
Almost everyone, including the dinosaurs and yesterday's men have all the badges, circumstances are a bigger factor in success or not.
We’re going in circles but agreeing managers like Adkins have mixed records so in most cases they’re seen as reasonable managers who will succeed in the right circumstances.
Burnley couldn’t have stayed up playing tika taka and no doubt he’d adapt to an extent with a bigger budget. However Prem club owners who want to play that way probably won’t have him near the top of their list. They’re far more likely to go for a manager who wants their team playing from the back regardless of budget.
I agree circumstance play a big part but doesn’t make me hope we appoint someone similar to Adkins ahead of Beale or Taylor. Who are you hoping we appoint?
I still think Beale is a fantastic coach, but his as untried and tested as Jacko was.
Any experienced manager dropping down is doing it for a reason, if they’re that good why aren’t they managing at a higher level?
A young manager stepping up is just as big a gamble, maybe like Powell and Bowyer they’re at the right club at the right time and won’t be able to recreate the success they’ve had.
We could get a proven solid League 1 manager like Robinson but I’d rather gamble on Beale being a lot better.
I don't buy this good managers become bad bit at all. You have to look at the whole thing in the round. Why are managers successful in one job then fail in two. Probably because all things aren't equal.
There are 44 teams in the two divisions above us. Without looking I would guess that half, at least, have changed managers in the last 18 months. Did they all become bad managers? Admittedly some of them probably were never very good and just poor appointments but I suspect if you look at it most of them would have a lot of other considerations as well.
Such as the board sold their star striker in January, they had a relatively small budget, the CE was to busy getting an official noddle partner in North Korea to buy the striker they needed etc etc.
Managers like players can also improve or decline, so I don’t agree that good managers are always good managers and success is mainly down to the circumstances.
As balham said the issue is working out who are the genuinely good managers and who has only done well due to having circumstances in their favour.
I just don’t see bringing in someone who’s had a couple of promotions from this division as any more of a guarantee than taking a chance on say Taylor or Beale. Logically getting the experienced manager makes success more likely (hence TS appointing Adkins) but we know there are plenty of examples where it doesn’t work that way in reality.
But with some exceptions most managers fall into the decent bracket, don't they?
There are some who are exceptionally good or exceptionally bad but generally speaking. If you go through our managers since Curbishley, they have all ultimately failed. If you exclude the 2 who were totally unsuitable for the job and haven't had a similar job before or since, most of them have done about as well as you would expect, when you consider the circumstances haven't they?
The clear exception, in my opinion was Pardew in the championship.
If Powell came back now would you expect him to get 100+ points next season? I wouldn't. Is he a worse manager now.......
Most do yes which is why I’d rather gamble on Beale or similar than go for another Robinson or Adkins.
Agree on the points about our managers since Curbs. Who was the totally unsuitable one other than Fraeye? I’ve probably forgotten someone really obvious.
Powell is an example of your first point, he’ll do well if it all comes together but he’s not good enough to overachieve when the situation makes things a lot more difficult - I doubt he’d have kept that 15/16 squad in the Championship for example, very few managers would have done.
How many managers ever over achieve for more than a very short period of time though?
Every clubs success comes when everything comes together doesn't it?
Les Reed is the other one BTW.
I’d rather we over achieved for a year or two than not achieve at all.
Not sure what you’re saying, is it that we should go for an experienced manager rather than Beale? That was the point originally made in the first comment in this set of quotes.
Of course, wasn’t thinking as far back as Reed.
No the original point was basically past performance, or lack of, doesn't really paint any sort of picture at all, without context.
As an example you can't compare Adkins's success at Southampton with his failed here and draw the conclusion he is "yesterday's man". Different players, different owners, different opponents, different staff.
You originally said that a manager who had been at a higher level would only come here because they couldn't get a job at a higher level because they aren't good enough any more, or words to that effect.
Dyche probably will end up getting a big championship job but is that because he isnt good enough, any more, to be a Premier League one?
It’s broadly true though of course there are exceptions. If a manager is rated as a Championship level manager with the amount of managerial changes that happen they’ve got a good chance of getting another job at that level.
In the same way we can’t assume Adkins is a great manager based on him managing a very well funded Southampton team who had various players who went on to impress at a much higher level than League 1.
That’s an assumption on Dyche but probably true due to his style of football putting Prem clubs off.
At the same time we can't say that Adkins isn't a good manager because of his time here. Or Reading, or Hull because of exactly the same reason.
Big Mick got stick for not taking Ipswich back up but the season they sacked him they went down....
With Dyche, could he have kept Burnley up playing tiki taka? Almost certainly not. Big Sam didn't play that style when he had the players at Bolton to not. Would Dyche play like that if he had unlimited resource, I would suggest not.
Almost everyone, including the dinosaurs and yesterday's men have all the badges, circumstances are a bigger factor in success or not.
We’re going in circles but agreeing managers like Adkins have mixed records so in most cases they’re seen as reasonable managers who will succeed in the right circumstances.
Burnley couldn’t have stayed up playing tika taka and no doubt he’d adapt to an extent with a bigger budget. However Prem club owners who want to play that way probably won’t have him near the top of their list. They’re far more likely to go for a manager who wants their team playing from the back regardless of budget.
I agree circumstance play a big part but doesn’t make me hope we appoint someone similar to Adkins ahead of Beale or Taylor. Who are you hoping we appoint?
Who is not the point is it. My whole point is unless it's a PE teacher or some other randomer the circumstances (ie recruitment, staff etc) will have more of a bearing on if it works or not than who it is.
If is another Adkins, another Robinson, another Powell or a Beale. Quite how you would find another of anyone is beyond me though.
Is this longest it’s ever taken us to appoint a new manager?
no one decent wants to be manager under TS format
Football managers literally work for entire human rights abusing governments. Blackpool were owned by an actual rapist. I think we'll manage to hire a decent enough bloke to run our third division football team.
Is this longest it’s ever taken us to appoint a new manager?
no one decent wants to be manager under TS format
Football managers literally work for entire human rights abusing governments. Blackpool were owned by an actual rapist. I think we'll manage to hire a decent enough bloke to run our third division football team.
I still think Beale is a fantastic coach, but his as untried and tested as Jacko was.
Any experienced manager dropping down is doing it for a reason, if they’re that good why aren’t they managing at a higher level?
A young manager stepping up is just as big a gamble, maybe like Powell and Bowyer they’re at the right club at the right time and won’t be able to recreate the success they’ve had.
We could get a proven solid League 1 manager like Robinson but I’d rather gamble on Beale being a lot better.
I don't buy this good managers become bad bit at all. You have to look at the whole thing in the round. Why are managers successful in one job then fail in two. Probably because all things aren't equal.
There are 44 teams in the two divisions above us. Without looking I would guess that half, at least, have changed managers in the last 18 months. Did they all become bad managers? Admittedly some of them probably were never very good and just poor appointments but I suspect if you look at it most of them would have a lot of other considerations as well.
Such as the board sold their star striker in January, they had a relatively small budget, the CE was to busy getting an official noddle partner in North Korea to buy the striker they needed etc etc.
Managers like players can also improve or decline, so I don’t agree that good managers are always good managers and success is mainly down to the circumstances.
As balham said the issue is working out who are the genuinely good managers and who has only done well due to having circumstances in their favour.
I just don’t see bringing in someone who’s had a couple of promotions from this division as any more of a guarantee than taking a chance on say Taylor or Beale. Logically getting the experienced manager makes success more likely (hence TS appointing Adkins) but we know there are plenty of examples where it doesn’t work that way in reality.
But with some exceptions most managers fall into the decent bracket, don't they?
There are some who are exceptionally good or exceptionally bad but generally speaking. If you go through our managers since Curbishley, they have all ultimately failed. If you exclude the 2 who were totally unsuitable for the job and haven't had a similar job before or since, most of them have done about as well as you would expect, when you consider the circumstances haven't they?
The clear exception, in my opinion was Pardew in the championship.
If Powell came back now would you expect him to get 100+ points next season? I wouldn't. Is he a worse manager now.......
Most do yes which is why I’d rather gamble on Beale or similar than go for another Robinson or Adkins.
Agree on the points about our managers since Curbs. Who was the totally unsuitable one other than Fraeye? I’ve probably forgotten someone really obvious.
Powell is an example of your first point, he’ll do well if it all comes together but he’s not good enough to overachieve when the situation makes things a lot more difficult - I doubt he’d have kept that 15/16 squad in the Championship for example, very few managers would have done.
How many managers ever over achieve for more than a very short period of time though?
Every clubs success comes when everything comes together doesn't it?
Les Reed is the other one BTW.
I’d rather we over achieved for a year or two than not achieve at all.
Not sure what you’re saying, is it that we should go for an experienced manager rather than Beale? That was the point originally made in the first comment in this set of quotes.
Of course, wasn’t thinking as far back as Reed.
No the original point was basically past performance, or lack of, doesn't really paint any sort of picture at all, without context.
As an example you can't compare Adkins's success at Southampton with his failed here and draw the conclusion he is "yesterday's man". Different players, different owners, different opponents, different staff.
You originally said that a manager who had been at a higher level would only come here because they couldn't get a job at a higher level because they aren't good enough any more, or words to that effect.
Dyche probably will end up getting a big championship job but is that because he isnt good enough, any more, to be a Premier League one?
It’s broadly true though of course there are exceptions. If a manager is rated as a Championship level manager with the amount of managerial changes that happen they’ve got a good chance of getting another job at that level.
In the same way we can’t assume Adkins is a great manager based on him managing a very well funded Southampton team who had various players who went on to impress at a much higher level than League 1.
That’s an assumption on Dyche but probably true due to his style of football putting Prem clubs off.
At the same time we can't say that Adkins isn't a good manager because of his time here. Or Reading, or Hull because of exactly the same reason.
Big Mick got stick for not taking Ipswich back up but the season they sacked him they went down....
With Dyche, could he have kept Burnley up playing tiki taka? Almost certainly not. Big Sam didn't play that style when he had the players at Bolton to not. Would Dyche play like that if he had unlimited resource, I would suggest not.
Almost everyone, including the dinosaurs and yesterday's men have all the badges, circumstances are a bigger factor in success or not.
We’re going in circles but agreeing managers like Adkins have mixed records so in most cases they’re seen as reasonable managers who will succeed in the right circumstances.
Burnley couldn’t have stayed up playing tika taka and no doubt he’d adapt to an extent with a bigger budget. However Prem club owners who want to play that way probably won’t have him near the top of their list. They’re far more likely to go for a manager who wants their team playing from the back regardless of budget.
I agree circumstance play a big part but doesn’t make me hope we appoint someone similar to Adkins ahead of Beale or Taylor. Who are you hoping we appoint?
Who is not the point is it. My whole point is unless it's a PE teacher or some other randomer the circumstances (ie recruitment, staff etc) will have more of a bearing on if it works or not than who it is.
If is another Adkins, another Robinson, another Powell or a Beale. Quite how you would find another of anyone is beyond me though.
I said for much of the season our recruitment was the main issue so I agree, but it still makes sense to go for whoever you think is the best manager you can attract. It's only an opinion of course which is why some owners go for young managers from a lower division and others would prefer an experienced manager.
I still think Beale is a fantastic coach, but his as untried and tested as Jacko was.
Any experienced manager dropping down is doing it for a reason, if they’re that good why aren’t they managing at a higher level?
A young manager stepping up is just as big a gamble, maybe like Powell and Bowyer they’re at the right club at the right time and won’t be able to recreate the success they’ve had.
We could get a proven solid League 1 manager like Robinson but I’d rather gamble on Beale being a lot better.
I don't buy this good managers become bad bit at all. You have to look at the whole thing in the round. Why are managers successful in one job then fail in two. Probably because all things aren't equal.
There are 44 teams in the two divisions above us. Without looking I would guess that half, at least, have changed managers in the last 18 months. Did they all become bad managers? Admittedly some of them probably were never very good and just poor appointments but I suspect if you look at it most of them would have a lot of other considerations as well.
Such as the board sold their star striker in January, they had a relatively small budget, the CE was to busy getting an official noddle partner in North Korea to buy the striker they needed etc etc.
Managers like players can also improve or decline, so I don’t agree that good managers are always good managers and success is mainly down to the circumstances.
As balham said the issue is working out who are the genuinely good managers and who has only done well due to having circumstances in their favour.
I just don’t see bringing in someone who’s had a couple of promotions from this division as any more of a guarantee than taking a chance on say Taylor or Beale. Logically getting the experienced manager makes success more likely (hence TS appointing Adkins) but we know there are plenty of examples where it doesn’t work that way in reality.
But with some exceptions most managers fall into the decent bracket, don't they?
There are some who are exceptionally good or exceptionally bad but generally speaking. If you go through our managers since Curbishley, they have all ultimately failed. If you exclude the 2 who were totally unsuitable for the job and haven't had a similar job before or since, most of them have done about as well as you would expect, when you consider the circumstances haven't they?
The clear exception, in my opinion was Pardew in the championship.
If Powell came back now would you expect him to get 100+ points next season? I wouldn't. Is he a worse manager now.......
Most do yes which is why I’d rather gamble on Beale or similar than go for another Robinson or Adkins.
Agree on the points about our managers since Curbs. Who was the totally unsuitable one other than Fraeye? I’ve probably forgotten someone really obvious.
Powell is an example of your first point, he’ll do well if it all comes together but he’s not good enough to overachieve when the situation makes things a lot more difficult - I doubt he’d have kept that 15/16 squad in the Championship for example, very few managers would have done.
How many managers ever over achieve for more than a very short period of time though?
Every clubs success comes when everything comes together doesn't it?
Les Reed is the other one BTW.
I’d rather we over achieved for a year or two than not achieve at all.
Not sure what you’re saying, is it that we should go for an experienced manager rather than Beale? That was the point originally made in the first comment in this set of quotes.
Of course, wasn’t thinking as far back as Reed.
No the original point was basically past performance, or lack of, doesn't really paint any sort of picture at all, without context.
As an example you can't compare Adkins's success at Southampton with his failed here and draw the conclusion he is "yesterday's man". Different players, different owners, different opponents, different staff.
You originally said that a manager who had been at a higher level would only come here because they couldn't get a job at a higher level because they aren't good enough any more, or words to that effect.
Dyche probably will end up getting a big championship job but is that because he isnt good enough, any more, to be a Premier League one?
It’s broadly true though of course there are exceptions. If a manager is rated as a Championship level manager with the amount of managerial changes that happen they’ve got a good chance of getting another job at that level.
In the same way we can’t assume Adkins is a great manager based on him managing a very well funded Southampton team who had various players who went on to impress at a much higher level than League 1.
That’s an assumption on Dyche but probably true due to his style of football putting Prem clubs off.
At the same time we can't say that Adkins isn't a good manager because of his time here. Or Reading, or Hull because of exactly the same reason.
Big Mick got stick for not taking Ipswich back up but the season they sacked him they went down....
With Dyche, could he have kept Burnley up playing tiki taka? Almost certainly not. Big Sam didn't play that style when he had the players at Bolton to not. Would Dyche play like that if he had unlimited resource, I would suggest not.
Almost everyone, including the dinosaurs and yesterday's men have all the badges, circumstances are a bigger factor in success or not.
We’re going in circles but agreeing managers like Adkins have mixed records so in most cases they’re seen as reasonable managers who will succeed in the right circumstances.
Burnley couldn’t have stayed up playing tika taka and no doubt he’d adapt to an extent with a bigger budget. However Prem club owners who want to play that way probably won’t have him near the top of their list. They’re far more likely to go for a manager who wants their team playing from the back regardless of budget.
I agree circumstance play a big part but doesn’t make me hope we appoint someone similar to Adkins ahead of Beale or Taylor. Who are you hoping we appoint?
Who is not the point is it. My whole point is unless it's a PE teacher or some other randomer the circumstances (ie recruitment, staff etc) will have more of a bearing on if it works or not than who it is.
If is another Adkins, another Robinson, another Powell or a Beale. Quite how you would find another of anyone is beyond me though.
I said for much of the season our recruitment was the main issue so I agree, but it still makes sense to go for whoever you think is the best manager you can attract. It's only an opinion of course which is why some owners go for young managers from a lower division and others would prefer an experienced manager.
We agree on the first point but your main point was that anyone from the divisions above wouldn't drop down if they were any good. What I still strongly disagree with. Then you counter it with wanting a Beale because they could be better. Based on not a lot.
If Beale was so good why didn't Rangers offer him the job when Stevie G left? Why didn't Liverpool try and keep him?
With no context CVs don't matter. Not in this game.
I still think Beale is a fantastic coach, but his as untried and tested as Jacko was.
Any experienced manager dropping down is doing it for a reason, if they’re that good why aren’t they managing at a higher level?
A young manager stepping up is just as big a gamble, maybe like Powell and Bowyer they’re at the right club at the right time and won’t be able to recreate the success they’ve had.
We could get a proven solid League 1 manager like Robinson but I’d rather gamble on Beale being a lot better.
I don't buy this good managers become bad bit at all. You have to look at the whole thing in the round. Why are managers successful in one job then fail in two. Probably because all things aren't equal.
There are 44 teams in the two divisions above us. Without looking I would guess that half, at least, have changed managers in the last 18 months. Did they all become bad managers? Admittedly some of them probably were never very good and just poor appointments but I suspect if you look at it most of them would have a lot of other considerations as well.
Such as the board sold their star striker in January, they had a relatively small budget, the CE was to busy getting an official noddle partner in North Korea to buy the striker they needed etc etc.
Managers like players can also improve or decline, so I don’t agree that good managers are always good managers and success is mainly down to the circumstances.
As balham said the issue is working out who are the genuinely good managers and who has only done well due to having circumstances in their favour.
I just don’t see bringing in someone who’s had a couple of promotions from this division as any more of a guarantee than taking a chance on say Taylor or Beale. Logically getting the experienced manager makes success more likely (hence TS appointing Adkins) but we know there are plenty of examples where it doesn’t work that way in reality.
But with some exceptions most managers fall into the decent bracket, don't they?
There are some who are exceptionally good or exceptionally bad but generally speaking. If you go through our managers since Curbishley, they have all ultimately failed. If you exclude the 2 who were totally unsuitable for the job and haven't had a similar job before or since, most of them have done about as well as you would expect, when you consider the circumstances haven't they?
The clear exception, in my opinion was Pardew in the championship.
If Powell came back now would you expect him to get 100+ points next season? I wouldn't. Is he a worse manager now.......
Most do yes which is why I’d rather gamble on Beale or similar than go for another Robinson or Adkins.
Agree on the points about our managers since Curbs. Who was the totally unsuitable one other than Fraeye? I’ve probably forgotten someone really obvious.
Powell is an example of your first point, he’ll do well if it all comes together but he’s not good enough to overachieve when the situation makes things a lot more difficult - I doubt he’d have kept that 15/16 squad in the Championship for example, very few managers would have done.
How many managers ever over achieve for more than a very short period of time though?
Every clubs success comes when everything comes together doesn't it?
Les Reed is the other one BTW.
I’d rather we over achieved for a year or two than not achieve at all.
Not sure what you’re saying, is it that we should go for an experienced manager rather than Beale? That was the point originally made in the first comment in this set of quotes.
Of course, wasn’t thinking as far back as Reed.
No the original point was basically past performance, or lack of, doesn't really paint any sort of picture at all, without context.
As an example you can't compare Adkins's success at Southampton with his failed here and draw the conclusion he is "yesterday's man". Different players, different owners, different opponents, different staff.
You originally said that a manager who had been at a higher level would only come here because they couldn't get a job at a higher level because they aren't good enough any more, or words to that effect.
Dyche probably will end up getting a big championship job but is that because he isnt good enough, any more, to be a Premier League one?
It’s broadly true though of course there are exceptions. If a manager is rated as a Championship level manager with the amount of managerial changes that happen they’ve got a good chance of getting another job at that level.
In the same way we can’t assume Adkins is a great manager based on him managing a very well funded Southampton team who had various players who went on to impress at a much higher level than League 1.
That’s an assumption on Dyche but probably true due to his style of football putting Prem clubs off.
At the same time we can't say that Adkins isn't a good manager because of his time here. Or Reading, or Hull because of exactly the same reason.
Big Mick got stick for not taking Ipswich back up but the season they sacked him they went down....
With Dyche, could he have kept Burnley up playing tiki taka? Almost certainly not. Big Sam didn't play that style when he had the players at Bolton to not. Would Dyche play like that if he had unlimited resource, I would suggest not.
Almost everyone, including the dinosaurs and yesterday's men have all the badges, circumstances are a bigger factor in success or not.
We’re going in circles but agreeing managers like Adkins have mixed records so in most cases they’re seen as reasonable managers who will succeed in the right circumstances.
Burnley couldn’t have stayed up playing tika taka and no doubt he’d adapt to an extent with a bigger budget. However Prem club owners who want to play that way probably won’t have him near the top of their list. They’re far more likely to go for a manager who wants their team playing from the back regardless of budget.
I agree circumstance play a big part but doesn’t make me hope we appoint someone similar to Adkins ahead of Beale or Taylor. Who are you hoping we appoint?
Who is not the point is it. My whole point is unless it's a PE teacher or some other randomer the circumstances (ie recruitment, staff etc) will have more of a bearing on if it works or not than who it is.
If is another Adkins, another Robinson, another Powell or a Beale. Quite how you would find another of anyone is beyond me though.
I said for much of the season our recruitment was the main issue so I agree, but it still makes sense to go for whoever you think is the best manager you can attract. It's only an opinion of course which is why some owners go for young managers from a lower division and others would prefer an experienced manager.
We agree on the first point but your main point was that anyone from the divisions above wouldn't drop down if they were any good. What I still strongly disagree with. Then you counter it with wanting a Beale because they could be better. Based on not a lot.
If Beale was so good why didn't Rangers offer him the job when Stevie G left? Why didn't Liverpool try and keep him?
With no context CVs don't matter. Not in this game.
I’m saying the better managers are more likely to stay at a higher level, not that it’s so black and white that good managers never drop down.
I’m not claiming my hope that we take a chance on Beale is based on a great deal. From what I’ve seen he’s rated as a coach and could potentially make the step up. He could also be a complete disaster, something that should be less likely to happen if we go the experienced route.
Rangers clearly felt they could do better or he wasn’t interested at the time. It could also be argued if he really wanted to be a manager he’d have done it by now.
It’s my preference that we go for a young manager or coach when we’re at this level. It’s not based on much other than looking at the type of managers who have been promoted to the Championship in recent history. While I have a preference it’s not a strong one, there are other routes we could go and be equally as successful. I’d be happy enough with an appointment like Warburton as it would have logic to it.
Is this longest it’s ever taken us to appoint a new manager?
no one decent wants to be manager under TS format
I don't get this. What format?
what do we do that's so different to every other club?
who heads up our recruitment? Is that normal?
Yes. I've used Wimbledon before as an example and I'll use them again. They have a committee of non football people who make all decisions on transfers and contracts.
its more common than you ours think. But I'm guessing that doesn't fit into most peoples ts bashing agenda.
jackson took our job knowing the set up and then again at Wimbledon. Either jj is stupid or he has a greater understanding of how football clubs are run than the members of Charlton life 🤔
He didn't have to as far as I am concerened. He impressed at Charlton. Jobs differ and good managers have failures on their CVs as well as successes.
True but you’d expect the better managers to have more successes than failures. Powell did a brilliant job for us and could have taken us further with enough backing, but if he came back I wouldn’t expect him to repeat that success. Partly for his ability to do it and partly because it’s unlikely so many signings would work out as well as they did.
I do get what you are saying and the logic behind it. I also think Powell had his faults, a big one being too cautious within games. Similar to Southgate with England in some ways. But overall he just fitted. When he was here, the fans loved him and the players would run through brick walls for him. When you have that, it is stupid throwing it away. When he told us we had our Charlton back, we knew he got it and we loved him for it because it meant as much to him as to us. Maybe Chrissy has found it just as hard to find subsequently as we have managerially. I think it was Duchatelet's first criminal act and it basically stemmed from having a plan and throwing out opportunities to pursue it as Powell was definitely an opportunity for an open minded owner who could adapt to what was around him. Whilst his heart seems to be in the right place, I suspect Sandgaard has this trait.
Is this longest it’s ever taken us to appoint a new manager?
no one decent wants to be manager under TS format
I don't get this. What format?
what do we do that's so different to every other club?
who heads up our recruitment? Is that normal?
SG is head of recruitment .. gone are the days when a manager went to look at players , speak to people about him etc etc remember Curbs saying it can take up to a year for him to make a decision on a player .. now at all clubs in prem championship and most of league one who can afford it the manager just highlights the players or positions he wants and then leaves it all to the recruitment team and scouts … the first time the manager then sees the player is when he turns up for training , you don’t even get the manager and player picture together now that tells how recruitment as changed
Comments
what do we do that's so different to every other club?
Big Mick got stick for not taking Ipswich back up but the season they sacked him they went down....
With Dyche, could he have kept Burnley up playing tiki taka? Almost certainly not. Big Sam didn't play that style when he had the players at Bolton to not. Would Dyche play like that if he had unlimited resource, I would suggest not.
Almost everyone, including the dinosaurs and yesterday's men have all the badges, circumstances are a bigger factor in success or not.
Burnley couldn’t have stayed up playing tika taka and no doubt he’d adapt to an extent with a bigger budget. However Prem club owners who want to play that way probably won’t have him near the top of their list. They’re far more likely to go for a manager who wants their team playing from the back regardless of budget.
I agree circumstance play a big part but doesn’t make me hope we appoint someone similar to Adkins ahead of Beale or Taylor. Who are you hoping we appoint?
If is another Adkins, another Robinson, another Powell or a Beale. Quite how you would find another of anyone is beyond me though.
If Beale was so good why didn't Rangers offer him the job when Stevie G left? Why didn't Liverpool try and keep him?
With no context CVs don't matter. Not in this game.
I’m not claiming my hope that we take a chance on Beale is based on a great deal. From what I’ve seen he’s rated as a coach and could potentially make the step up. He could also be a complete disaster, something that should be less likely to happen if we go the experienced route.
Rangers clearly felt they could do better or he wasn’t interested at the time. It could also be argued if he really wanted to be a manager he’d have done it by now.
its more common than you ours think. But I'm guessing that doesn't fit into most peoples ts bashing agenda.
jackson took our job knowing the set up and then again at Wimbledon. Either jj is stupid or he has a greater understanding of how football clubs are run than the members of Charlton life 🤔
What are the odds on that..