Next manager - Ben Garner confirmed (p256)

Dazzler21

Chunes said:

I have a feeling Ben's very open approach to defending wasn't punished anywhere near as much in League Two because the quality of finishing is poor. In League One it is getting punished more frequently. I don't see any attempts to address it. We allow so much space around our box and are happy to leave players forward even when we're under pressure. 

That's this team's biggest problem, we can't do well if we continue to concede in every game. I think the continuous 3/10 performances by Stockley are really distracting from the problem at the other end of the pitch. If we had a striker who fit the system, this problem would still be holding us back. It's very difficult to win games when you have to score 2-4 goals every time. 

You obviously can't blame Garner for Jayden, he's stuck with him for the time being, but our defensive record is very much on him.

Is it? Egbo and Sessegnon the first choice full back options both get injured. It was also no secret he wanted another centre back. 

I won't put any blame on Garner until he is financially backed and still fails to deliver. This is all on the Sandgaards.

Cafc43v3r

Chunes said:

I have a feeling Ben's very open approach to defending wasn't punished anywhere near as much in League Two because the quality of finishing is poor. In League One it is getting punished more frequently. I don't see any attempts to address it. We allow so much space around our box and are happy to leave players forward even when we're under pressure. 

That's this team's biggest problem, we can't do well if we continue to concede in every game. I think the continuous 3/10 performances by Stockley are really distracting from the problem at the other end of the pitch. If we had a striker who fit the system, this problem would still be holding us back. It's very difficult to win games when you have to score 2-4 goals every time. 

You obviously can't blame Garner for Jayden, he's stuck with him for the time being, but our defensive record is very much on him.

It's a double edged sword though.  The defence are playing under pressure because they know if they concede a goal its maximum 1 point.  The fowards know they need to score at least 1 to get a point.

If we sort the defence out, perversely, we will actually score more goals.

North Lower Neil

Dazzler21 said:

Chunes said:

I have a feeling Ben's very open approach to defending wasn't punished anywhere near as much in League Two because the quality of finishing is poor. In League One it is getting punished more frequently. I don't see any attempts to address it. We allow so much space around our box and are happy to leave players forward even when we're under pressure. 

That's this team's biggest problem, we can't do well if we continue to concede in every game. I think the continuous 3/10 performances by Stockley are really distracting from the problem at the other end of the pitch. If we had a striker who fit the system, this problem would still be holding us back. It's very difficult to win games when you have to score 2-4 goals every time. 

You obviously can't blame Garner for Jayden, he's stuck with him for the time being, but our defensive record is very much on him.

Is it? Egbo and Sessegnon the first choice full back options both get injured. It was also no secret he wanted another centre back. 

I won't put any blame on Garner until he is financially backed and still fails to deliver. This is all on the Sandgaards.

Plus if you appoint a manager who you want to attack, and win 4-3 not 1-0 etc, might be an idea to let him sign a striker to actually score.

killerandflash

Last season, Swindon conceded the most goals out of all the top 7. Clearly his ethos is winning 2-1 rather than 1-0, but it does mean that in the absence of goal scorers up front, we struggle to grind out scruffy smash and grab 1-0 wins, because we're not defensively good enough 

oohaahmortimer

I don’t know whether Ben Garner is good or bad but this immediate love in for him by some is just the standard rose tinted view of anything that turns up at Charlton is immediately elevated to levels of greatness .
I really like the way he carries himself and talks but looking at results and the limited number of performances I have seen I’m not seeing the reason why some are panicking that he’s all of a sudden going to be headhunted .

Chunes

Dazzler21 said:

Chunes said:

I have a feeling Ben's very open approach to defending wasn't punished anywhere near as much in League Two because the quality of finishing is poor. In League One it is getting punished more frequently. I don't see any attempts to address it. We allow so much space around our box and are happy to leave players forward even when we're under pressure. 

That's this team's biggest problem, we can't do well if we continue to concede in every game. I think the continuous 3/10 performances by Stockley are really distracting from the problem at the other end of the pitch. If we had a striker who fit the system, this problem would still be holding us back. It's very difficult to win games when you have to score 2-4 goals every time. 

You obviously can't blame Garner for Jayden, he's stuck with him for the time being, but our defensive record is very much on him.

Is it? Egbo and Sessegnon the first choice full back options both get injured. It was also no secret he wanted another centre back. 

I won't put any blame on Garner until he is financially backed and still fails to deliver. This is all on the Sandgaards.

You're right. Some truth in that. Clayden alone has been at fault for 3-4 goals and shouldn't have been playing (a bloody youth team winger playing LB for christ's sake). But I still feel like the defensive shape and plans in general are also major contributors.

Dazzler21

Chunes said:

Dazzler21 said:

Chunes said:

I have a feeling Ben's very open approach to defending wasn't punished anywhere near as much in League Two because the quality of finishing is poor. In League One it is getting punished more frequently. I don't see any attempts to address it. We allow so much space around our box and are happy to leave players forward even when we're under pressure. 

That's this team's biggest problem, we can't do well if we continue to concede in every game. I think the continuous 3/10 performances by Stockley are really distracting from the problem at the other end of the pitch. If we had a striker who fit the system, this problem would still be holding us back. It's very difficult to win games when you have to score 2-4 goals every time. 

You obviously can't blame Garner for Jayden, he's stuck with him for the time being, but our defensive record is very much on him.

Is it? Egbo and Sessegnon the first choice full back options both get injured. It was also no secret he wanted another centre back. 

I won't put any blame on Garner until he is financially backed and still fails to deliver. This is all on the Sandgaards.

You're right. Some truth in that. Clayden alone has been at fault for 3-4 goals and shouldn't have been playing (a bloody youth team winger playing LB for christ's sake). But I still feel like the defensive shape and plans in general are also major contributors.

 Has Garner seconded defensive duties like Bowyer used to? 

I certainly feel sometimes like defenders should know how to hold their shape too. Their primary job is to defend, if they and the keeper communicate well, they should be able to manage. They are allegedly professionals.

ElfsborgAddick

oohaahmortimer said:

I don’t know whether Ben Garner is good or bad but this immediate love in for him by some is just the standard rose tinted view of anything that turns up at Charlton is immediately elevated to levels of greatness .
I really like the way he carries himself and talks but looking at results and the limited number of performances I have seen I’m not seeing the reason why some are panicking that he’s all of a sudden going to be headhunted .

The only person who is going to headhunt Garner is Sandgaard......to kick him out if we have a further poor six results.

Silverdreammachine

When Garner said if we get in the top six then we are over achieving, must have done the players morale a lot of good. Even if true not the most sensible comment to make!

Pavoren007

I hope Ben has other formations and tactics in his locker, not a criticism inferring point, just that he has not been provided the right resources to play his preferred approach, despite Thomas trying to find a coach complimentary in style to what he wants to see. 

Dave2l

Silverdreammachine said:

When Garner said if we get in the top six then we are over achieving, must have done the players morale a lot of good. Even if true not the most sensible comment to make!

Its a stupid and overly cautious thing to say to the cameras. 

He's probably trying to hint that the summer transfer window wasn't anywhere near good enough. 

Richard J

I like him.

I was impressed with him at the Q&A and felt he needs to be given time as clearly he hasn’t been given the resources to make us successful this season. His 2/3 windows feels like a realistic timescale

I hope the fans don’t turn on him.

Off_it

Richard J said:

I like him.

I was impressed with him at the Q&A and felt he needs to be given time as clearly he hasn’t been given the resources to make us successful this season. His 2/3 windows feels like a realistic timescale

I hope the fans don’t turn on him.

Bowyer wasn't given the resources he needed.

Adkins wasn't given the resources he needed.

Jackson wasn't given the resources he needed.

Didn't stop the fans turning on all of them.

NabySarr

Off_it said:

Richard J said:

I like him.

I was impressed with him at the Q&A and felt he needs to be given time as clearly he hasn’t been given the resources to make us successful this season. His 2/3 windows feels like a realistic timescale

I hope the fans don’t turn on him.

Bowyer wasn't given the resources he needed.

Adkins wasn't given the resources he needed.

Jackson wasn't given the resources he needed.

Didn't stop the fans turning on all of them.

Could already hear it starting on Saturday. For me if we are mid table then I think (like Jackson and Bowyer) he will have basically achieved what is expected based on the strength of the squad he has. If we are any lower (like we are now but still early days) then he will be underperforming like Adkins. The squad isn’t good but it’s better than 16th 

killerandflash

Richard J said:

I like him.

I was impressed with him at the Q&A and felt he needs to be given time as clearly he hasn’t been given the resources to make us successful this season. His 2/3 windows feels like a realistic timescale

I hope the fans don’t turn on him.

I didn't agree with the 2/3 windows comment. That we have gaps in our squad, especially up front, is down to poor recruitment, rather than needing an extra 2 more windows because we are building slowly and steadily. 

And if the finances aren't there, then 2 more windows won't help anyway.

Oggy Red

Pavoren007 said:

I hope Ben has other formations and tactics in his locker, not a criticism inferring point, just that he has not been provided the right resources to play his preferred approach, despite Thomas trying to find a coach complimentary in style to what he wants to see. 

We can plainly see that we're playing decent expansive passing football but toothless up front and vulnerable on the counter at the back.
It's like 3 quarters of the jigsaw pieces are there but a couple of vital pieces are missing.

But without first finding those missing pieces, what's going to change?
Is it madness to keep doing the same thing over and over, yet expecting a different outcome?


What would an experienced manager do?
I reckon he'd look at what he has, and without sacrificing all of his system ethos, he'd adapt the formation and gameplan to play to the strengths of his available players.

And he would think, if you can't score sufficient goals, then you need to find a way to stop conceding.

Cafc43v3r

Off_it said:

Richard J said:

I like him.

I was impressed with him at the Q&A and felt he needs to be given time as clearly he hasn’t been given the resources to make us successful this season. His 2/3 windows feels like a realistic timescale

I hope the fans don’t turn on him.

Bowyer wasn't given the resources he needed.

Adkins wasn't given the resources he needed.

Jackson wasn't given the resources he needed.

Didn't stop the fans turning on all of them.

Mainly because someone has to take the flack and most of that time, most of the people, wouldn't accept it was the owners fault.  That's not true any more.

kinveachyaddick

For all the chat about Stockley not fitting the system and our lack goals (which is entirely true), we've scored in all bar one game this season. Problem is we've only kept one clean sheet at the other end. 

Richard J

killerandflash said:

Richard J said:

I like him.

I was impressed with him at the Q&A and felt he needs to be given time as clearly he hasn’t been given the resources to make us successful this season. His 2/3 windows feels like a realistic timescale

I hope the fans don’t turn on him.

I didn't agree with the 2/3 windows comment. That we have gaps in our squad, especially up front, is down to poor recruitment, rather than needing an extra 2 more windows because we are building slowly and steadily. 

And if the finances aren't there, then 2 more windows won't help anyway.

I agree with most of what you say.

Clearly we should have invested if we had wanted to be competitive this season. Therefore BG needs time. Which left footed defenders and strikers were available?

In January there will be maybe some different players available and BG can further stamp his identity on the team. If after his third window next summer and our squad is still unbalanced then he would bear the bulk of the responsibility.

The Red Robin

I refuse to judge Garner under this owner. 

Off_it

Oggy Red said:

Pavoren007 said:

I hope Ben has other formations and tactics in his locker, not a criticism inferring point, just that he has not been provided the right resources to play his preferred approach, despite Thomas trying to find a coach complimentary in style to what he wants to see. 

We can plainly see that we're playing decent expansive passing football but toothless up front and vulnerable on the counter at the back.
It's like 3 quarters of the jigsaw pieces are there but a couple of vital pieces are missing.

But without first finding those missing pieces, what's going to change?
Is it madness to keep doing the same thing over and over, yet expecting a different outcome?


What would an experienced manager do?
I reckon he'd look at what he has, and without sacrificing all of his system ethos, he'd adapt the formation and gameplan to play to the strengths of his available players.

And he would think, if you can't score sufficient goals, then you need to find a way to stop conceding.

Hmm. Seems to me that if we're saying that we're good in the middle third but not so good in the attacking or defending third then we've only got one third of the jigsaw puzzle done. And to be fair, it's the easier bit of the puzzle. Scoring goals and stopping other people scoring are always the harder bits.

BR7_addick

My only criticism of garner is picking Morgan over Payne or JFC.  Other than that there’s no way I’m ready to blame the guy yet.  

Covered End

killerandflash said:

Richard J said:

I like him.

I was impressed with him at the Q&A and felt he needs to be given time as clearly he hasn’t been given the resources to make us successful this season. His 2/3 windows feels like a realistic timescale

I hope the fans don’t turn on him.

I didn't agree with the 2/3 windows comment. That we have gaps in our squad, especially up front, is down to poor recruitment, rather than needing an extra 2 more windows because we are building slowly and steadily. 

And if the finances aren't there, then 2 more windows won't help anyway.

I'm presuming we couldn't pick up a striker, left footed centre back and left footed wing back for free, so it will take as many windows as it does to pick up the freebies.

However by then other players will have been sold/left so it's like trying to catch water. 

SELR_addicks

Garner will be in a division above us soon. 

He's not the problem. 

Dazzler21

BR7_addick said:

My only criticism of garner is picking Morgan over Payne or JFC.  Other than that there’s no way I’m ready to blame the guy yet.  

I have a feeling JFC not playing is an instruction. No way he's behind Morgan or McGrandles, but also he's not the player he once was either. To not even be around the match day squad is farcical. 

killerandflash

Covered End said:

killerandflash said:

Richard J said:

I like him.

I was impressed with him at the Q&A and felt he needs to be given time as clearly he hasn’t been given the resources to make us successful this season. His 2/3 windows feels like a realistic timescale

I hope the fans don’t turn on him.

I didn't agree with the 2/3 windows comment. That we have gaps in our squad, especially up front, is down to poor recruitment, rather than needing an extra 2 more windows because we are building slowly and steadily. 

And if the finances aren't there, then 2 more windows won't help anyway.

I'm presuming we couldn't pick up a striker, left footed centre back and left footed wing back for free, so it will take as many windows as it does to pick up the freebies.

However by then other players will have been sold/left so it's like trying to catch water. 

If we fail to get those players in the summer when we had 3 months to sign them, it'll be a lot harder and more expensive in January, when we'll have to pay a fee.

And of course we ( not Garner) let Washington and Purrington go, and pushed Pearce into retirement, because we could do better.

MuttleyCAFC

Oggy Red said:

Pavoren007 said:

I hope Ben has other formations and tactics in his locker, not a criticism inferring point, just that he has not been provided the right resources to play his preferred approach, despite Thomas trying to find a coach complimentary in style to what he wants to see. 

We can plainly see that we're playing decent expansive passing football but toothless up front and vulnerable on the counter at the back.
It's like 3 quarters of the jigsaw pieces are there but a couple of vital pieces are missing.

But without first finding those missing pieces, what's going to change?
Is it madness to keep doing the same thing over and over, yet expecting a different outcome?


What would an experienced manager do?
I reckon he'd look at what he has, and without sacrificing all of his system ethos, he'd adapt the formation and gameplan to play to the strengths of his available players.

And he would think, if you can't score sufficient goals, then you need to find a way to stop conceding.

I think an inexperienced player would do the same. One of the concerns I had when Garner got the job was his fexibility to change things if it veered away from Sandgaards preferred system. I had this concern because I think Adkins was in that trap.

Having said that, even within the system he could look at discarding those that can't contribute goals and promote those that can. Simply to compensate for a lack of goals where you would ideally want them to be.

Ross

.

ElfsborgAddick

SELR_addicks said:

Garner will be in a division above us soon. 

He's not the problem. 

Are we getting relegated then?

DubaiCAFC

SELR_addicks said:

Garner will be in a division above us soon. 

He's not the problem. 

I think you are right - but my question is, if you haven't got the players to play the way you want to play, why play that way? Why not play to the players strengths.