Attention: Please take a moment to consider our terms and conditions before posting.

3-5-2?

Considering the storming performance today with only 10 men, and considering our problems at left back, does anyone else think that this may be the way forward, at least until the return of Wiggins?

All three of the centre backs looked composed and calm, and the big Yank's long throws could be useful.

This would allow an extra body in midfield, which, if we passed the ball like we did in the 2nd half, would allow a midfielder to get forward more to support the striker.

What do you all think?
«1

Comments

  • I'd give it ago against Blackburn in the cup
  • Garrymanilow
    Garrymanilow Posts: 13,175
    3-5-2 is a weird one. I think it works well as a surprise tactic but once teams realise you are going to play it it has a lot of areas that can be easily exploited, especially with weaker players. It seemed like it was going to be the answer to our problems under Powell when we broke it out last season, making the most of two of our best players in Wiggins and Solly, but once we got found out we got found out hard and we had to drop it. I don't think it's a sustainable tactic with the players we have
  • I think it would be a good tactic if we need to chase a game... To start a game with this formation may not be the best of ideas, we dont have the quickest Defenders in Bikey and Onyewu so could be exploited by a quick Strikeforce
  • thenewbie
    thenewbie Posts: 11,002
    Might be worth trying it in the cup, and switching the shape as a plan B is probably a good idea, but I can't see it becoming the first choice formation. As GM says, once it's been sussed it's pretty easy to exploit, in a way a more standard formation is not. That said, bringing it out during a game if the first tactics aren't working is a decent plan I imagine as the oppo would have to make changes if they want to make the most of the weaknesses.
  • We need to play two up front regardless of what's the formation is behind them. If we had played two up front against the spanners, Blackpool and Ipswich, I'm sure the results would have been different.
  • stonemuse
    stonemuse Posts: 34,013
    It's worth keeping this formation for a few games ...if nothing else, it's more exciting to watch
  • 3-5-2 has become much more of a popular formation in the last couple of years, and if my recollection is correct a few championship sides have lined up like that against us this season.

    I would be tempted to give it a go as it gives you a lot of options attacking wise, and I feel we have the quality at the back to still remain solid.

    If we were to do it I would like to build it around J Berg, have him in the position behind the strikers and let him roam. Probably Solly/Cousins on the wings and JJ/Buyens the two sitting in midfield.
  • Didnt van Gaal start off with a 3-5-2 only for it to go badly wrong including a defeat against MK Dons in the Cup... He then turned it to 4-4-2 and they've flown up the league
  • Been saying this for weeks now. The squad we have is perfect for 3-5-2.
  • ValleyFred
    ValleyFred Posts: 539
    edited December 2014

    Didnt van Gaal start off with a 3-5-2 only for it to go badly wrong including a defeat against MK Dons in the Cup... He then turned it to 4-4-2 and they've flown up the league

    I'm pretty sure United have been playing 3-5-2 in recent weeks? At least they did yesterday, with Evans/Jones/McNair as the back three, and Young and Valencia as wing backs.

    Liverpool also have changed to it recently, and I reckon it's helped to explain their improved form. Personally, given the quality and experience of Bikey, TBH and Onyewu I think it's definitely worth a shot. With Solly and Cousins both good enough in both the defensive and attacking departments, and Buyens being the ideal type of player to play the deep lying playmaker role. It also would allow Gudmonsson the freedom to play across the final third, which clearly proved decisive yesterday.

    Line-up like this:

    ----------Etheridge---------
    -----TBH---Bikey---Onyewu---
    Solly------------------Cousins
    ------Buyens----Jackson------
    -------------JBG------------
    -----Tucudean---Vetokele-----
  • Sponsored links:



  • Lincsaddick
    Lincsaddick Posts: 32,357
    like any system, you need the right players to play 3 5 2 (or any system really) ... @ValleyFred 's line up looks both solid as well as threatening and looks worth a try .. in fact Anything to break the increasingly tedious 1-0 0-1 1-1 etc etc run that we are on
  • Davo55
    Davo55 Posts: 7,836
    Good as an option but a team with one or two decent wingers would exploit the wide areas much better than Cardiff did yesterday.
  • thenewbie
    thenewbie Posts: 11,002
    Davo55 said:

    Good as an option but a team with one or two decent wingers would exploit the wide areas much better than Cardiff did yesterday.

    Agreed, with 10 or 11 men we were always making more of the wings than Cardiff (except from those poxy long throws they loved so much), they were pretty much targeting Kenwyn Jones and letting him hold it up, playing through the middle and using set pieces instead of wing play. Which worked in our favour for the most part, but if we'd tried the same system against a team with someone like Drenthe out wide we'd be in trouble I would think.
  • soapboxsam
    soapboxsam Posts: 23,231
    Davo55 said:

    Good as an option but a team with one or two decent wingers would exploit the wide areas much better than Cardiff did yesterday.

    100% Right.

    Have said the same on the post match thread.

    we must play 2 up front, with attacking mid fielder behind them, at least at home.



  • like any system, you need the right players to play 3 5 2 (or any system really) ... @ValleyFred 's line up looks both solid as well as threatening and looks worth a try .. in fact Anything to break the increasingly tedious 1-0 0-1 1-1 etc etc run that we are on

    You'd prefer 0~3 0~2 1~4??

    As others have said, a team with decent wingers would have a field day. Cousins as a wing back? How many times will he give away possession do you reckon?
  • soapboxsam
    soapboxsam Posts: 23,231

    Been saying this for weeks now. The squad we have is perfect for 3-5-2.

    You can only play 3-5-2 from the start if wiggins was fit and solly played, as wing backs in the 5.

    As good as we were yesterday, playing 3 CB's without wing back cover, Ipswich would think it was Christmas !

  • The reason I started this thread is not that I am against 4-4-2, but that we have a problem at left back ATM. If Wiggins was fit, I don't think the issue would arise.
  • Lincsaddick
    Lincsaddick Posts: 32,357

    Been saying this for weeks now. The squad we have is perfect for 3-5-2.

    You can only play 3-5-2 from the start if wiggins was fit and solly played, as wing backs in the 5.

    As good as we were yesterday, playing 3 CB's without wing back cover, Ipswich would think it was Christmas !

    but it IS Christmas ((:>)
  • The reason I started this thread is not that I am against 4-4-2, but that we have a problem at left back ATM. If Wiggins was fit, I don't think the issue would arise.

    A 3 5 2 system requires specialist wing backs...(wiggins and solly fit the bill). So i think having wiggins is even more important for a 3 5 2 system.
  • Oggy Red
    Oggy Red Posts: 44,957
    Perhaps 3-5-2 could be the Plan B we've never had ?


  • Sponsored links:



  • Tutt-Tutt
    Tutt-Tutt Posts: 3,274

    Didnt van Gaal start off with a 3-5-2 only for it to go badly wrong including a defeat against MK Dons in the Cup... He then turned it to 4-4-2 and they've flown up the league

    I'm pretty sure United have been playing 3-5-2 in recent weeks? At least they did yesterday, with Evans/Jones/McNair as the back three, and Young and Valencia as wing backs.

    Liverpool also have changed to it recently, and I reckon it's helped to explain their improved form. Personally, given the quality and experience of Bikey, TBH and Onyewu I think it's definitely worth a shot. With Solly and Cousins both good enough in both the defensive and attacking departments, and Buyens being the ideal type of player to play the deep lying playmaker role. It also would allow Gudmonsson the freedom to play across the final third, which clearly proved decisive yesterday.

    Line-up like this:

    ----------Etheridge---------
    -----TBH---Bikey---Onyewu---
    Solly------------------Cousins
    ------Buyens----Jackson------
    -------------JBG------------
    -----Tucudean---Vetokele-----
    If I'm the opposition, I'm launching all of my build-up play and counter attacks into the left back area behind Cousins, who as a right footer often comes inside and will leave space, as well as being vulnerable on the outside. I will get my right back to push forward at every opportunity to overload the vacant left back area and force Oneywu to defend near the touch line. Bikey will have to cover across, leaving space for my CF and midfield runners to exploit in the central areas.

    Improvising during a game, as BP did brilliantly yesterday, is one thing, but setting up to play that way for a longer period is another. you'd better be well prepared, because opponents will pull it apart if you have any obvious weaknesses.

    Is the Back Three a zonal marking system or is the middle defender playing as a sweeper or Libero?

    Are the wing backs pushing forward in support of the build-up or making runs in advance of the ball?

    If the wing backs are occupied defending against opposition wingers, in a line of 5, who provides the width in the midfield and attacking thirds?

    If the opposition use a diamond in midfield, as Cardiff did yesterday, who picks up the fourth midfielder?

    BP showed courage in changing to a 3-4-2 Diamond system yesterday, instead of settling for a 4-4-1 system and trying to nick a goal. Bill Shankly used to preach Improvisation and Adjustment as two of his main principles. BP improvised with a system which suited the players he had available to attack the game and adjusted to the game situation with remarkable flexibility for a championship coach. Anyone notice Russell Slade had no idea how to counter it? His team looked like "Rabbits in head-lights" in the last half-hour. They had no idea what was happening. BP showed imagination in his substitutions and caught the opposition cold. Impressive, but I doubt if it's an option going forward. How about we get a decent CF and strong Central Midfielder to plug the obvious gaps in our 4-4-2 system? Then we can begin winning matches again.

  • Tutt-Tutt, what is your view as to why the diamond worked when we went 3-4-2 as opposed to the previous 2 games? Is it the case that Messrs Solly, Buyens, Cousins and Gudmundsson are getting more used to it, that Slade couldn't cope with it or some other reason?
  • Oggy Red
    Oggy Red Posts: 44,957
    Tutt-Tutt ......... that's a great post!

    Agree totally.



    IMO 3-5-2 is a formation to chase the game when the oppo are set up to deal with 4-4-2.
    It gives us something different.

    Plan B.

  • Clem_Snide
    Clem_Snide Posts: 11,741
    Picked up an interesting snippet tonight. The switch to 3-4-2 might not have been soley down to Bob.

    Apparently there were some pretty frank exchanges in the dressing room at half time and a couple of senior players were suggesting 3-4-2 as a way back into the game.

    No idea how true this is, but came from someone very close to the first team squad so wouldn't dismiss it at all.
  • guinnessaddick
    guinnessaddick Posts: 28,648
    edited December 2014

    Picked up an interesting snippet tonight. The switch to 3-4-2 might not have been soley down to Bob.

    Apparently there were some pretty frank exchanges in the dressing room at half time and a couple of senior players were suggesting 3-4-2 as a way back into the game.

    No idea how true this is, but came from someone very close to the first team squad so wouldn't dismiss it at all.

    Someone posted on another thread that Bob was almost out the door, having fallen out with the senior players. Perhaps that's pushing it a bit far, the above might well have happened

    Found it.

    .agim said:
    According to some sources Bob is virtually out the door. He's also fallen out with some of the players. TBH and Buyens were mentioned. I hope it's not true.
  • To add fuel to the fire, Karel Frej, who was assistant to Jose Riga, was at the Valley for the Cardiff game.
  • Picked up an interesting snippet tonight. The switch to 3-4-2 might not have been soley down to Bob.

    Apparently there were some pretty frank exchanges in the dressing room at half time and a couple of senior players were suggesting 3-4-2 as a way back into the game.

    No idea how true this is, but came from someone very close to the first team squad so wouldn't dismiss it at all.

    Someone posted on another thread that Bob was almost out the door, having fallen out with the senior players. Perhaps that's pushing it a bit far, the above might well have happened

    Found it.

    .agim said:
    According to some sources Bob is virtually out the door. He's also fallen out with some of the players. TBH and Buyens were mentioned. I hope it's not true.
    If true then Bob should get rid of them both in January. We can't have players running the club.
  • Picked up an interesting snippet tonight. The switch to 3-4-2 might not have been soley down to Bob.

    Apparently there were some pretty frank exchanges in the dressing room at half time and a couple of senior players were suggesting 3-4-2 as a way back into the game.

    No idea how true this is, but came from someone very close to the first team squad so wouldn't dismiss it at all.

    Someone posted on another thread that Bob was almost out the door, having fallen out with the senior players. Perhaps that's pushing it a bit far, the above might well have happened

    Found it.

    .agim said:
    According to some sources Bob is virtually out the door. He's also fallen out with some of the players. TBH and Buyens were mentioned. I hope it's not true.
    Bob, TBH, Buyens

    3 bald men fighting over a comb...
  • Tutt-Tutt
    Tutt-Tutt Posts: 3,274

    Tutt-Tutt, what is your view as to why the diamond worked when we went 3-4-2 as opposed to the previous 2 games? Is it the case that Messrs Solly, Buyens, Cousins and Gudmundsson are getting more used to it, that Slade couldn't cope with it or some other reason?

    Cardiff set up with a 4-4-2 diamond from the off, probably on the back of scouting reports from our previous games. But we started with an orthodox 4-4-2. When we went 3-4-2, BP went with a diamond to match-up with the Cardiff midfield and our players rotated, With JBG in particular running off his direct opponent. The B3 also gambled a lot, bringing the ball forward, committing the Cardiff midfield and opening up spaces. Cardiff's F2 were poor at defending from the front and allowed them to do so. Add to that a quicker tempo and we were battering them. They had no leadership on or off the pitch during the last half hour, to deal with it.
  • Tutt-Tutt
    Tutt-Tutt Posts: 3,274
    Tutt-Tutt said:

    Didnt van Gaal start off with a 3-5-2 only for it to go badly wrong including a defeat against MK Dons in the Cup... He then turned it to 4-4-2 and they've flown up the league

    I'm pretty sure United have been playing 3-5-2 in recent weeks? At least they did yesterday, with Evans/Jones/McNair as the back three, and Young and Valencia as wing backs.

    Liverpool also have changed to it recently, and I reckon it's helped to explain their improved form. Personally, given the quality and experience of Bikey, TBH and Onyewu I think it's definitely worth a shot. With Solly and Cousins both good enough in both the defensive and attacking departments, and Buyens being the ideal type of player to play the deep lying playmaker role. It also would allow Gudmonsson the freedom to play across the final third, which clearly proved decisive yesterday.

    Line-up like this:

    ----------Etheridge---------
    -----TBH---Bikey---Onyewu---
    Solly------------------Cousins
    ------Buyens----Jackson------
    -------------JBG------------
    -----Tucudean---Vetokele-----
    If I'm the opposition, I'm launching all of my build-up play and counter attacks into the left back area behind Cousins, who as a right footer often comes inside and will leave space, as well as being vulnerable on the outside. I will get my right back to push forward at every opportunity to overload the vacant left back area and force Oneywu to defend near the touch line. Bikey will have to cover across, leaving space for my CF and midfield runners to exploit in the central areas.

    Improvising during a game, as BP did brilliantly yesterday, is one thing, but setting up to play that way for a longer period is another. you'd better be well prepared, because opponents will pull it apart if you have any obvious weaknesses.

    Is the Back Three a zonal marking system or is the middle defender playing as a sweeper or Libero?

    Are the wing backs pushing forward in support of the build-up or making runs in advance of the ball?

    If the wing backs are occupied defending against opposition wingers, in a line of 5, who provides the width in the midfield and attacking thirds?

    If the opposition use a diamond in midfield, as Cardiff did yesterday, who picks up the fourth midfielder?

    you can't switch to a 3-5-2 system in mid-season and expect it to work. It needs practice during the pre-season. Mick McCarthy is too experienced to know how to deal with it. His scout would have covered it from Boxing Day and they would have prepared themselves just in case BP was silly enough to try it. Fancy using a un-tried system against the second placed team in the league.

    BP is obviously struggling to get a team out in his preferred 4-4-2 system. He will need at least three players during the window to improve his options. A CF who leads the line and holds it up; a Central midfielder who wins the ball and can drive the team forward; and a left sided midfielder to give the team balance, who will also threaten the opposition right back area. He also needs to make his mind up on Morgan Fox - is he good enough for the Championship or do I need to get in a better Left Back on loan to cover for Wiggins?

    BP started the season with a 4-4-2 using a short-passing game, based on keeping possession. Opponents have shut that down from October onwards, apart from the odd occasion. WE have no alternative pattern of play, due to the lack of hold-up play, or runners attacking the space beyond the CF. He needs to develop an "up, back and through" style of play. That doesn't have to be long ball. It can be angled passes into feet to a CF coming off the opposition centre backs, who can hold it up for the CM's joining in or JBG coming off the right flank. at the moment, the second half against Cardiff apart, we are not attacking the space behind the opposition Back Four enough and stretching the game.