Attention: Please take a moment to consider our terms and conditions before posting.
New Article: Who's at fault? Peeters? Duchatelet? No one ?
shirty5
Posts: 19,220
January 4th 2015. Out of the FA Cup , 31 points from 24 League games. 13th in the championship.
Delighted? Acceptable? What you expected? Content? Disgusted? Sack the board? Sack the head coach/manager?
The squad was not big/strong enough in August and with injuries/suspensions now affecting us we are suffering. The bench yesterday summed up how short we are. All seven under the age of 21 with a handful of games between them. We need at least 5/6 players this month who are good enough to go straight in the first eleven.
Out of the current squad Gudmundsson, Ben Haim, Bikey, Solly, Vetokele, Henderson would get into the likes of Ipswich and Derby's sides. With our strongest eleven all fit and on form we are a top 6 side, However we are a bottom half side at present.
Good start to the season and nice football as well, but Wolves at home in September were the first side to work out how we play and since then the style of football has dropped. Injuries and suspensions are a factor. Does Peeters have another plan that is effective?
Whilst i feel for Peeters in what he is working with, i feel he needs to be more proactive. Yesterday cracks started to show, with Wilson (out of favour this season) looking totally dis-interested, Jackson having verbals with Peeters and vica versa when the floodlights went off. Taking our best player off (Gudmundsson) when we are 2-1 down in the Cup with 10 minutes to go.
Duchatelet whilst spending 20m plus since taking over needs to speculate to accumulate this month. Either give Bob the funds required to bring in proven championship players or otherwise League One could back on the horizon.
Would a change of head coach be on the cards again? To have four managers in 12 months would seem crazy, but with Duchatelet nothing would ever surprise me.
Delighted? Acceptable? What you expected? Content? Disgusted? Sack the board? Sack the head coach/manager?
The squad was not big/strong enough in August and with injuries/suspensions now affecting us we are suffering. The bench yesterday summed up how short we are. All seven under the age of 21 with a handful of games between them. We need at least 5/6 players this month who are good enough to go straight in the first eleven.
Out of the current squad Gudmundsson, Ben Haim, Bikey, Solly, Vetokele, Henderson would get into the likes of Ipswich and Derby's sides. With our strongest eleven all fit and on form we are a top 6 side, However we are a bottom half side at present.
Good start to the season and nice football as well, but Wolves at home in September were the first side to work out how we play and since then the style of football has dropped. Injuries and suspensions are a factor. Does Peeters have another plan that is effective?
Whilst i feel for Peeters in what he is working with, i feel he needs to be more proactive. Yesterday cracks started to show, with Wilson (out of favour this season) looking totally dis-interested, Jackson having verbals with Peeters and vica versa when the floodlights went off. Taking our best player off (Gudmundsson) when we are 2-1 down in the Cup with 10 minutes to go.
Duchatelet whilst spending 20m plus since taking over needs to speculate to accumulate this month. Either give Bob the funds required to bring in proven championship players or otherwise League One could back on the horizon.
Would a change of head coach be on the cards again? To have four managers in 12 months would seem crazy, but with Duchatelet nothing would ever surprise me.
3
Comments
-
Have you got a list of the £20m spent?0
-
I'm a supporter of Bob but I genuinely think he's lost it. The players aren't playing with any belief. Our squad has some good quality players in it but at the same time it is paper thin, if someone is out of form, ie Igor, fox, bikey then they can't be dropped and taken out of the firing line and come back stronger, like Ben hamer did when he was dropped on several occasions.
I think the fault lies in all parties, bob, katrien and RD need to do better as losing is a habit and we have started to fall into it. It's a downward spiral from there.6 -
How could it possibly be RD's fault? The bloke has already spent millions sorting out the ground, the pitch, the catering and bringing in a £2.4m striker. If he left the club tomorrow he'd leave us in a far better state than when he joined6
-
Maybe he can bring in more players (of a good quality) rather than just focusing on the pulled pork burgers and hanging some pictures on the wall.1
-
Those of us who had seen the false "we're still 5th" position early on in the season knew we weren't that good but I didn't think we were this shite
It's the manager who isn't getting enough out of the players at his disposal at this point in time and that has to get sorted
And he has a limited squad provided to him by RD3 -
Because it's his policies and decisions that lead to the manager (sorry coach) we have, the players we bring in and how they are chosen, and to some of us just as importantly, players we have let go so he could prove some point about how much more he knows than everyone else about football.cafcnick1992 said:How could it possibly be RD's fault? The bloke has already spent millions sorting out the ground, the pitch, the catering and bringing in a £2.4m striker. If he left the club tomorrow he'd leave us in a far better state than when he joined
5 -
I think 6-7 players is over the top, but 2-3 experienced players. Like Greenie I like Bob and support him, but he does seem to have lost the initial spark that he had when he joined and at times his selections and tactics match mine on Championship Manager (and that resulted in me being sacked in the first season, even though I was in the play offs). Its easy (relatively) to manage a team moving forward, its a test of a managers ability to get them out of a slump an dthat is the test Bob faces now.
Fumbluff, the £20m will include the purchase price (£14.5 million) Cost of Vetokele (£2.5 million) Ground work in the summer including the ptich (£0.75) plus other players and the ongoing losses of the club £5-6m per year). - I suspect, although other have the definitive costs.
The thing is whether it is £20m £30m or whatever, to secure a top half position and be sure of avoiding being sucked into a relegation fight now and be able to push for a play off next season then now and in the summer further relatively significant investment.0 -
He only spent 75p on the pitch? What a little pisstaker Roland can be at times.Kap10 said:I think 6-7 players is over the top, but 2-3 experienced players. Like Greenie I like Bob and support him, but he does seem to have lost the initial spark that he had when he joined and at times his selections and tactics match mine on Championship Manager (and that resulted in me being sacked in the first season, even though I was in the play offs). Its easy (relatively) to manage a team moving forward, its a test of a managers ability to get them out of a slump an dthat is the test Bob faces now.
Fumbluff, the £20m will include the purchase price (£14.5 million) Cost of Vetokele (£2.5 million) Ground work in the summer including the ptich (£0.75) plus other players and the ongoing losses of the club £5-6m per year). - I suspect, although other have the definitive costs.
The thing is whether it is £20m £30m or whatever, to secure a top half position and be sure of avoiding being sucked into a relegation fight now and be able to push for a play off next season then now and in the summer further relatively significant investment.5 -
"I know you've already spent about £5 million RD but can you spend a few more million or we'll hate you"
Yeah, a totally reasonable request0 -
Football in England is a basket case. I don't see how we can, realistically, expect this man to drop any more of his money into our club and if we can't compete spending in excess of £5m a season more that we earn then we need to have a rethink.
If FFP is going to be removed (or as good as) then it is unlikely we will be seeing promotion anytime soon as other clubs will risk their future on a gamble to get promoted. With three clubs going up (and often comibg straight back down) there will always be half a dozen that have spent millions on going up and failing.
Frankly I'm just happy that we are no longer living under the threat of administration from week to week.
I don't think we will go down and I am more than happy with that to be honest.3 - Sponsored links:
-
Delighted0
-
Not what people are saying is it? It isn't that RD hasn't spent money at all (a la the Cockney Mob at the end of their reign) but that he has to spend more IF we are going to turn it around. The squad is clearly and demonstrably too thin to sustain early season form over the whole season, that is a fact. It would be the same if Roland spent upwards of a million on each and every player to come in instead of providing a few loanees, the issue is numbers pure and simple, we don't have enough experience and quality to stay amongst the big boys for long periods. Bob is young and made mistakes (Solly in midfield!?) but ultimately he has very limited options to deal with issues. Onyewu injured and Morrison sold means that Gomez is the only remaining centre back choice. Wiggins out leaves us with a sub-par, nerve wracked Fox as the ONLY left back he can use, unless he plays a right footer on the wrong side. That's not due to ineptitude tactically, he's got no other choice.cafcnick1992 said:"I know you've already spent about £5 million RD but can you spend a few more million or we'll hate you"
Yeah, a totally reasonable request
RD wants better results he's got to provide better equipment to get them with, it's that simple. Replacing Bob might or might not get the 'bounce' initially but whoever it was would end up playing Solly at right back or Cousins on the wing sooner or later because the squad as it stands is not deep enough. Duchatalet has to decide between principles and profit, he can't sell assets that have no value, and currently that's what Charlton are for the most part.4 -
How do you know he wants better results? Maybe he will be happy with a lower-mid table finish this season.thenewbie said:
Not what people are saying is it? It isn't that RD hasn't spent money at all (a la the Cockney Mob at the end of their reign) but that he has to spend more IF we are going to turn it around. The squad is clearly and demonstrably too thin to sustain early season form over the whole season, that is a fact. It would be the same if Roland spent upwards of a million on each and every player to come in instead of providing a few loanees, the issue is numbers pure and simple, we don't have enough experience and quality to stay amongst the big boys for long periods. Bob is young and made mistakes (Solly in midfield!?) but ultimately he has very limited options to deal with issues. Onyewu injured and Morrison sold means that Gomez is the only remaining centre back choice. Wiggins out leaves us with a sub-par, nerve wracked Fox as the ONLY left back he can use, unless he plays a right footer on the wrong side. That's not due to ineptitude tactically, he's got no other choice.cafcnick1992 said:"I know you've already spent about £5 million RD but can you spend a few more million or we'll hate you"
Yeah, a totally reasonable request
RD wants better results he's got to provide better equipment to get them with, it's that simple. Replacing Bob might or might not get the 'bounce' initially but whoever it was would end up playing Solly at right back or Cousins on the wing sooner or later because the squad as it stands is not deep enough. Duchatalet has to decide between principles and profit, he can't sell assets that have no value, and currently that's what Charlton are for the most part.0 -
The key point for me from Shirty's original post is the squad size and I completely agree - we can't afford to drop out of form players as the first XI is decent but the back-up isn't. There's little or no decent cover fir injuries. Given there's two games a week more often than not in the Championship, you need reasonable depth, it's massively a squad game these days.
I like the way RD has gone about things in terms of looking for good, young talent (if Igor and JBG for example eventually move on at a profit then it means they've done well here and we've done well out of the whole thing, so all well and good), but less so the puffing out the squad with effectively whatever the network has to hand and the youth team - fine if they are ready, but not good for them or us if they aren't.
I agree with others who've said we need more in, but they need to be selected carefully not just bought in as they're there. Solly we know can't play all the time, there's a problem on the left as Cousins would be better in the middle, we need to be able to drop/rest Buyens and/or Jackson when they or the team needs it. Most importantly, Igor needs support and backup, George and Church aren't going to get us anywhere as yesterday showed.1 -
Sadly most of this is correct. I only disagree with being "more than happy" at not thinking we will go down (from the championship). This is a level at which, based on history, our club would hope to be competitive once in a while, but the portents for that aint good.kings hill addick said:Football in England is a basket case. I don't see how we can, realistically, expect this man to drop any more of his money into our club and if we can't compete spending in excess of £5m a season more that we earn then we need to have a rethink.
If FFP is going to be removed (or as good as) then it is unlikely we will be seeing promotion anytime soon as other clubs will risk their future on a gamble to get promoted. With three clubs going up (and often comibg straight back down) there will always be half a dozen that have spent millions on going up and failing.
Frankly I'm just happy that we are no longer living under the threat of administration from week to week.
I don't think we will go down and I am more than happy with that to be honest.
If Duchatelet works out that he is not likely to get a ROI on his FFP game plan it is not at all clear how he gets a ROI from CAFC at all other than finding someone else to buy the shooting match for more than he paid, if such a person could be found. What I cant see him doing is speculating big bucks on players chasing a PL dream and why should we expect him to?0 -
I think the unanswerable question is exactly what does RD believe is success. His ownership is in my mind without question some form of social experiment that he believes or believed could be made to work within the framework of his network of clubs and utilising his perceived advantages offered by FFP. What he considers success or failure might be very different from what your average football fan thinks.
8 -
True enough, but then he can't replace Peeters on the basis of results because as depressing as the fans find it, Big Bob is fulfilling the job he was hired for and to RD's requirements. What I guess I was really saying was that there won't be any improvements in performances without improvements to the squad, and it's RD who can make that happen. Will he? No-one knows, except he.Norfolk_Addick said:
How do you know he wants better results? Maybe he will be happy with a lower-mid table finish this season.thenewbie said:
Not what people are saying is it? It isn't that RD hasn't spent money at all (a la the Cockney Mob at the end of their reign) but that he has to spend more IF we are going to turn it around. The squad is clearly and demonstrably too thin to sustain early season form over the whole season, that is a fact. It would be the same if Roland spent upwards of a million on each and every player to come in instead of providing a few loanees, the issue is numbers pure and simple, we don't have enough experience and quality to stay amongst the big boys for long periods. Bob is young and made mistakes (Solly in midfield!?) but ultimately he has very limited options to deal with issues. Onyewu injured and Morrison sold means that Gomez is the only remaining centre back choice. Wiggins out leaves us with a sub-par, nerve wracked Fox as the ONLY left back he can use, unless he plays a right footer on the wrong side. That's not due to ineptitude tactically, he's got no other choice.cafcnick1992 said:"I know you've already spent about £5 million RD but can you spend a few more million or we'll hate you"
Yeah, a totally reasonable request
RD wants better results he's got to provide better equipment to get them with, it's that simple. Replacing Bob might or might not get the 'bounce' initially but whoever it was would end up playing Solly at right back or Cousins on the wing sooner or later because the squad as it stands is not deep enough. Duchatalet has to decide between principles and profit, he can't sell assets that have no value, and currently that's what Charlton are for the most part.1 -
Perhaps he should have done proper due diligence? If he knew what he was buying then the losses shouldn't be a surprise, but it's really about sunk costs not what he's spent. I'm not an accountant, thankfully, but the assets have a value, especially The Valley. If he shut the club he could realise that value, subject to covenants on outstanding loans, or more likely he'd recoup it in a sale, so it's not as straightforward as just looking at what he's spent. At a more realistic level, Vetokele is not a sunk cost. And I doubt if he has spent anything on the catering.Bryan_Kynsie said:
Sadly most of this is correct. I only disagree with being "more than happy" at not thinking we will go down (from the championship). This is a level at which, based on history, our club would hope to be competitive once in a while, but the portents for that aint good.kings hill addick said:Football in England is a basket case. I don't see how we can, realistically, expect this man to drop any more of his money into our club and if we can't compete spending in excess of £5m a season more that we earn then we need to have a rethink.
If FFP is going to be removed (or as good as) then it is unlikely we will be seeing promotion anytime soon as other clubs will risk their future on a gamble to get promoted. With three clubs going up (and often comibg straight back down) there will always be half a dozen that have spent millions on going up and failing.
Frankly I'm just happy that we are no longer living under the threat of administration from week to week.
I don't think we will go down and I am more than happy with that to be honest.
If Duchatelet works out that he is not likely to get a ROI on his FFP game plan it is not at all clear how he gets a ROI from CAFC at all other than finding someone else to buy the shooting match for more than he paid, if such a person could be found. What I cant see him doing is speculating big bucks on players chasing a PL dream and why should we expect him to?
I don't accept that Peeters is the problem, but if he is he's entirely one of RD's making, isn't he?3 -
Why do you all treat mid table mediocrity as abject failure? You'd have given your limbs away last season for it.
Can't you see that going from near relegation to comfortable is an improvement? Or like most fickle fans is it not enough for you? We must be challenging or else the manager deserves to go.
We should be grateful we have an owner that has invested in the long term infrastructure of the club and I think will continue to do so.4 -
Don't believe there was a queue to buy the club in 2013 was there?0
- Sponsored links:
-
Thatcher3
-
the trouble is that we are not "mid table mediocrity" yes we are mid table but with the current form we are mid table and falling fast towards a relegation fight just like last season without the excuse of a waterlogged pitch.2
-
Yes he is RD's man prepared to do things RD's way so to the extent he is part of the problem - which not having the answers (from the horse's mouth, albeit English may not be his mother tongue) suggests he is, that is true.Airman Brown said:
Perhaps he should have done proper due diligence? If he knew what he was buying then the losses shouldn't be a surprise, but it's really about sunk costs not what he's spent. I'm not an accountant, thankfully, but the assets have a value, especially The Valley. If he shut the club he could realise that value, subject to covenants on outstanding loans, or more likely he'd recoup it in a sale, so it's not as straightforward as just looking at what he's spent. At a more realistic level, Vetokele is not a sunk cost. And I doubt if he has spent anything on the catering.Bryan_Kynsie said:
Sadly most of this is correct. I only disagree with being "more than happy" at not thinking we will go down (from the championship). This is a level at which, based on history, our club would hope to be competitive once in a while, but the portents for that aint good.kings hill addick said:Football in England is a basket case. I don't see how we can, realistically, expect this man to drop any more of his money into our club and if we can't compete spending in excess of £5m a season more that we earn then we need to have a rethink.
If FFP is going to be removed (or as good as) then it is unlikely we will be seeing promotion anytime soon as other clubs will risk their future on a gamble to get promoted. With three clubs going up (and often comibg straight back down) there will always be half a dozen that have spent millions on going up and failing.
Frankly I'm just happy that we are no longer living under the threat of administration from week to week.
I don't think we will go down and I am more than happy with that to be honest.
If Duchatelet works out that he is not likely to get a ROI on his FFP game plan it is not at all clear how he gets a ROI from CAFC at all other than finding someone else to buy the shooting match for more than he paid, if such a person could be found. What I cant see him doing is speculating big bucks on players chasing a PL dream and why should we expect him to?
I don't accept that Peeters is the problem, but if he is he's entirely one of RD's making, isn't he?
Even Pardew didn't come out and say "there is nothing you can do" so far as I can recall...That's not the sort of fighting talk we need from a manager right now. I'd prefer him to say "well, its tough, but we are going to be working bloody hard to get it sorted"!
Personally I would also like to see a different approach when, as is frequently the case, we are not in possession of the ball or are fortunate enough to have a slender one goal lead. It is not RD sending them out with instructions to sit back, lay off and soak up inevitably mounting pressure until we concede late on, is it? You'd hope he might try something different some time although to be fair it has been that way under Powell sometimes too!1 -
cafcnick1992 said:
Why do you all treat mid table mediocrity as abject failure? You'd have given your limbs away last season for it.
Can't you see that going from near relegation to comfortable is an improvement? Or like most fickle fans is it not enough for you? We must be challenging or else the manager deserves to go.
We should be grateful we have an owner that has invested in the long term infrastructure of the club and I think will continue to do so.
I expected nothing more than survival and would happily accept mid table mediocrity this season. Was even saying so earlier in the season when some of us had the audacity to suggest we weren't actually as good as results and table suggested at the time and were just shouted down as negative and anti RD.
Trouble is that at this time it's not certain that we are mid table mediocrity or comfortable is it??0 -
We're not really all that comfortable though. And we're mid-table only in passing, but approached from above and are rapidly on our way down to the lower reaches. On current form we will end up much lower than this, and without money/new players Bob will not be able to change that, through no fault of his own - he just won't have anything to change it with. I do not think Bob should go, and I don't think he fluked his way to those good results earlier on (look at his decisive and inspired changes vs Cardiff, he's not stupid) but currently, the results are awful, the form is terrible, the crowd is restless and the team looks defeated before they've kicked a ball. The club might be invested in but the team NEEDS the same.cafcnick1992 said:Why do you all treat mid table mediocrity as abject failure? You'd have given your limbs away last season for it.
Can't you see that going from near relegation to comfortable is an improvement? Or like most fickle fans is it not enough for you? We must be challenging or else the manager deserves to go.
We should be grateful we have an owner that has invested in the long term infrastructure of the club and I think will continue to do so.0 -
To be perfectly honest we are in a better position than I thought we would be at this stage of the season. I think Bob has made some mistakes, as have all of the team at some stage but no way should we be thinking of replacing him. Give him time for christ sake, its his first full season managing in the championship, I still quite like him, I think when we had our full team out we were playing some of the best football I had seen down the valley for years. We have been unlucky with injuries as well, RW, JJ, IV, JG, have all had spells out as our keeper who was looking a really good signing and having a real effect on the team (especially our defence!). I think his absence has had the most effect in our form and now losing matches instead of getting at least a valuable point.
Hopefully we will sign 2 or 3 players in January get a couple of wins under our belt and then our "early season" confidence will return. I just think we all need to put things into perspective and get behind our manager, team etc. Who would we want to replace BP? an experienced football league, premiership manager? someone like Ian Holloway? I know who I would rather!!
And what about our pitch????.............Superb....................Keep the faith lads and lasses!
COYR................1 -
I'd be over the moon with mid table come the end of the season.cafcnick1992 said:Why do you all treat mid table mediocrity as abject failure? You'd have given your limbs away last season for it.
Can't you see that going from near relegation to comfortable is an improvement? Or like most fickle fans is it not enough for you? We must be challenging or else the manager deserves to go.
We should be grateful we have an owner that has invested in the long term infrastructure of the club and I think will continue to do so.
Sadly we still have another half to go. Let's just hope this January transfer window is better than last January as we need all the help we can to keep us mid table.1 -
Great post Shirty. You're saying, what I was trying to say, in the "where are we heading" thread.
I don't think anyone is to blame as such & agree with SHG that CAFC and the other network clubs are all part of RD's football experiment.
The trouble is, that it was unlikely to work well with FFP in place & now that FFP has been drastically weakened, instead of strengthened, his plan for CAFC is well & truly buggered.
So what will he do ? Who knows.
All we do know, is that we have Henderson, Solly, Wiggins, TBH, Bikey, Gudmunsen, Buyens & Vetokele who are good players at this level. Henderson & Wiggins are out injured, so that leaves 6.
Of this 6 Vetokele has been struggling for months with fitness & form and we know Solly struggles with 2 games a week.
That leaves TBH, Bikey & Gudmunsen (Buyens suspended). It's no wonder the centre halves are showing signs of tiredness/not being as brilliant as they were.
Yes we have Jackson, Cousins, Gomez, Wilson, Bulot, Moussa, Harriot, as reasonable support.
But Oyewu (injured hammy), Pope, Fox, Church, Ahearne-Grant, Tucadean, Pigott, Thomas, are probably not good enough to keep us in this division (at present).
Peeters is in the same boat as Powell. He's trying to perform miracles with an under strength squad.
Now if RD wants to play the U21's mainly as a 1st team, then I'm starting to think this can only work in L1, just as Crewe have done for 30 years. Play 1 or 2 U21's if they're good enough. But we only have Cousins & Gomez IMO.
Does RD want CAFC to replicate Southampton or Crewe ?
This is the question.8 -
My concern is that at the beginning of the season, when we were winning and drawing, although it was a vast improvement on last season, we all knew we wern't doing as well as we could, mainly due to the negative approach we were taking once we got our noses in front.
Bob was aware of this and assured us that the team needed time to adjust to his way of playing. We've gradually got worse, to the point of we find ourselves constantly chasing games and (more often than not) going out with a whimper.
Halfway through the campaign now, the players must surely be fully aware of how Peeters wants them to play, so they're either not listening to him or this is how he wants them to play.
Either way, I'm not impressed and am struggling to see a light at the end of the tunnel he's driving us down.............0 -
Pulled pork is everywhere these days. Such a fadO-Randy-Hunt said:Maybe he can bring in more players (of a good quality) rather than just focusing on the pulled pork burgers and hanging some pictures on the wall.
0
