Drummer Lee Rigby - Lest We Forget
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Most memorials (not plaques and suchlike to individuals, large scale memorials) are to more than one person, and to conflicts as a whole - people who died in a war. Putting up a similar memorial would (to the extremists) let them justify what happened as an actual war not a pair of murderous scum killing a man on a street corner. I am not saying it's right and I don't think Rigby should be forgotten but it's a little more complicated a decision than just a money-saving exercise by cold hearted council types I think.0
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That seems to be the common theme though, seeing things from the eye of the Islamists. It would be Our memorial, not theirs and Imo it should reflect that in the wording on it. Then, if need be, it should be protected by CCTV 24 hours a day 7 days a week.0
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There's a small memorial to the policemen killed on Wormwood Scrubs Common in the 60s during a raid, but it is very small and discreet, if you want a loose precedent1
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Ditto, WPC Yvonne Fletcher opposite the Libyan embassy at St. James's Square.0
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Loads of police ones about. Jim Morrison on India place. Keith Blakelock on muswell hill broadway are another two. Another outside harrods which I can't remember the name of.0
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On that basis then, we should ask Greenwich council to remove Stephen Lawrence's plaque/memorial.thenewbie said:Most memorials (not plaques and suchlike to individuals, large scale memorials) are to more than one person, and to conflicts as a whole - people who died in a war. Putting up a similar memorial would (to the extremists) let them justify what happened as an actual war not a pair of murderous scum killing a man on a street corner. I am not saying it's right and I don't think Rigby should be forgotten but it's a little more complicated a decision than just a money-saving exercise by cold hearted council types I think.
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Not really, because I don't think Lawrence's murderers claimed to be soldiers in a holy war. They were racist thugs, no more than that. They aren't held up as martyrs or holy warriors. Lee's killers both claimed it to be an act of war and that they were soldiers, and to that kind of mind a memorial would prove them right.DA9 said:
On that basis then, we should ask Greenwich council to remove Stephen Lawrence's plaque/memorial.thenewbie said:Most memorials (not plaques and suchlike to individuals, large scale memorials) are to more than one person, and to conflicts as a whole - people who died in a war. Putting up a similar memorial would (to the extremists) let them justify what happened as an actual war not a pair of murderous scum killing a man on a street corner. I am not saying it's right and I don't think Rigby should be forgotten but it's a little more complicated a decision than just a money-saving exercise by cold hearted council types I think.
I am NOT (I really must make this clear) against remembering Lee Rigby in some way, but a small plaque of some kind, perhaps not even at the spot he died but somewhere chosen by his family would perhaps be preferable to a large memorial. It's a tricky situation and I am not entirely sure of the rights and wrongs but a poor choice could make this killing a religious/racial hotspot and controversy as the killers' wish, not ''just'' a murder by two thugs who will spend their lives rotting in prison.4 -
brogib said:
That seems to be the common theme though, seeing things from the eye of the Islamists. It would be Our memorial, not theirs and Imo it should reflect that in the wording on it. Then, if need be, it should be protected by CCTV 24 hours a day 7 days a week.
Spot on. I'm not 100% sure I think there should be a memorial, but there's a memorial in Eltham at the spot where Stephen Lawrence died and it is protected by CCTV after some scumbags tried to vandalise it - if Rigby isn't getting a memorial then there needs to be a better reason than this.DA9 said:
On that basis then, we should ask Greenwich council to remove Stephen Lawrence's plaque/memorial.thenewbie said:Most memorials (not plaques and suchlike to individuals, large scale memorials) are to more than one person, and to conflicts as a whole - people who died in a war. Putting up a similar memorial would (to the extremists) let them justify what happened as an actual war not a pair of murderous scum killing a man on a street corner. I am not saying it's right and I don't think Rigby should be forgotten but it's a little more complicated a decision than just a money-saving exercise by cold hearted council types I think.
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The only controversy is being caused by Greenwich council.thenewbie said:
Not really, because I don't think Lawrence's murderers claimed to be soldiers in a holy war. They were racist thugs, no more than that. They aren't held up as martyrs or holy warriors. Lee's killers both claimed it to be an act of war and that they were soldiers, and to that kind of mind a memorial would prove them right.DA9 said:
On that basis then, we should ask Greenwich council to remove Stephen Lawrence's plaque/memorial.thenewbie said:Most memorials (not plaques and suchlike to individuals, large scale memorials) are to more than one person, and to conflicts as a whole - people who died in a war. Putting up a similar memorial would (to the extremists) let them justify what happened as an actual war not a pair of murderous scum killing a man on a street corner. I am not saying it's right and I don't think Rigby should be forgotten but it's a little more complicated a decision than just a money-saving exercise by cold hearted council types I think.
I am NOT (I really must make this clear) against remembering Lee Rigby in some way, but a small plaque of some kind, perhaps not even at the spot he died but somewhere chosen by his family would perhaps be preferable to a large memorial. It's a tricky situation and I am not entirely sure of the rights and wrongs but a poor choice could make this killing a religious/racial hotspot and controversy as the killers' wish, not ''just'' a murder by two thugs who will spend their lives rotting in prison.
Irrespective of the "motivations" behind both murders, two people were murdered on our local streets, Greenwich council seemingly couldn't do enough for one family, and still do via taxpayer funds (cctv), and seem to be washing their hands of the other.
And to make it perfectly clear, this is not about removing or criticising Stephen Lawrence's memorial, this is about doing the right thing and even handidness7 -
Agreed. Also Lawrence's murderes ARE glorified by some morons - some of our fans have been nicked for allegedly singing their praises.DA9 said:
The only controversy is being caused by Greenwich council.thenewbie said:
Not really, because I don't think Lawrence's murderers claimed to be soldiers in a holy war. They were racist thugs, no more than that. They aren't held up as martyrs or holy warriors. Lee's killers both claimed it to be an act of war and that they were soldiers, and to that kind of mind a memorial would prove them right.DA9 said:
On that basis then, we should ask Greenwich council to remove Stephen Lawrence's plaque/memorial.thenewbie said:Most memorials (not plaques and suchlike to individuals, large scale memorials) are to more than one person, and to conflicts as a whole - people who died in a war. Putting up a similar memorial would (to the extremists) let them justify what happened as an actual war not a pair of murderous scum killing a man on a street corner. I am not saying it's right and I don't think Rigby should be forgotten but it's a little more complicated a decision than just a money-saving exercise by cold hearted council types I think.
I am NOT (I really must make this clear) against remembering Lee Rigby in some way, but a small plaque of some kind, perhaps not even at the spot he died but somewhere chosen by his family would perhaps be preferable to a large memorial. It's a tricky situation and I am not entirely sure of the rights and wrongs but a poor choice could make this killing a religious/racial hotspot and controversy as the killers' wish, not ''just'' a murder by two thugs who will spend their lives rotting in prison.
Irrespective of the "motivations" behind both murders, two people were murdered on our local streets, Greenwich council seemingly couldn't do enough for one family, and still do via taxpayer funds (cctv), and seem to be washing their hands of the other.
And to make it perfectly clear, this is not about removing or criticising Stephen Lawrence's memorial, this is about doing the right thing and even handiness.0 - Sponsored links:
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I have read elsewhere that the council stated the above....but the family have since confirmed that they did not request that there wasn't one.Radzinsky said:
I really don't understand Greenwich council's position on this. If enough people want one, why not give it to them?1 -
If something like this had happened to someone I love - and please let that never happen - I would prefer that a memorial was put in place to fire the memory of that person's life, rather than stoke the memory of their death.
Lee Rigby was a son, a father, a husband, a soldier and a musician - as well as many other things. If he deserves to be remembered - and he clearly does - then I think it should be as all of these things and not as a murdered man.
But it's not for people like me - who had never met him, nor heard of him until his tragic murder - to decide where, what and when his memorial(s) should be created.
His family, his friends and his regiment should choose the best ways in which to remember his life. Perhaps a memorial, via public subscription at his school in Manchester. Or at one of the places at which he served his country, like the Cyprus, Germany, Afghanistan or the Tower of London.
It would be fitting and suitable if Lee Rigby the man was remembered, permanently. But I believe that memorialising and permanently marking the scene and method of his murder is not the right thing to do.
Commemorate the man; condemn the murder.
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I agree Chizz and that's pretty much what I was trying to say though not half as eloquently. I just feel the fear is (rightly or wrongly) that a memorial at the scene would act as rallying point for the murderers' allies as much as the victim, who is who we should all remember with pride.1
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So neither of you think that not putting a memorial up might be playing into the hands of the Islamists then?0
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Maybe it will - but why on earth should this country continue to live in fear of doing things that are peaceful and commemorative because of what some extremist to$$ers might think about it?thenewbie said:I agree Chizz and that's pretty much what I was trying to say though not half as eloquently. I just feel the fear is (rightly or wrongly) that a memorial at the scene would act as rallying point for the murderers' allies as much as the victim, who is who we should all remember with pride.
Them considering a memorial as a rallying point or a 'victory' symbol wouldn't make them any more deluded than what they already are, afterall.2 -
No, I think there absolutely should be something to remember him by, he should not be forgotten. But putting something in the spot where he died may not necessarily be that thing. That's all I am saying. As Chizz says, he should be remembered, the murderers forgotten. Putting a plaque somewhere else, of the family's choice, or perhaps founding some sort of charity in his memory or naming a public facility of some kind after him would be more use than a memorial on the spot he died.1
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And I'll say it again, on that basis Greenwich Council should remove Stephen Lawrence's memorial in your opinion.Chizz said:
I can't speak for anyone else, but I don't think that.brogib said:So neither of you think that not putting a memorial up might be playing into the hands of the Islamists then?
The man deserved to be remembered for his life, not his death. The murderers deserve to be forgotten.0 -
I dthenewbie said:I agree Chizz and that's pretty much what I was trying to say though not half as eloquently. I just feel the fear is (rightly or wrongly) that a memorial at the scene would act as rallying point for the murderers' allies as much as the victim, who is who we should all remember with pride.
Is Stephen Lawrence's memorial a rallying point for racist groups?thenewbie said:I agree Chizz and that's pretty much what I was trying to say though not half as eloquently. I just feel the fear is (rightly or wrongly) that a memorial at the scene would act as rallying point for the murderers' allies as much as the victim, who is who we should all remember with pride.
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That's not my opinion.DA9 said:
And I'll say it again, on that basis Greenwich Council should remove Stephen Lawrence's memorial in your opinion.Chizz said:
I can't speak for anyone else, but I don't think that.brogib said:So neither of you think that not putting a memorial up might be playing into the hands of the Islamists then?
The man deserved to be remembered for his life, not his death. The murderers deserve to be forgotten.
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All sorts of people might think that a memorial, placed on the site of the murder might be a rallying point. Not just those who sympathise with the murderers, but all sorts of people in every range of political beliefs and ranges of idealogical spectrum.cafctom said:
Maybe it will - but why on earth should this country continue to live in fear of doing things that are peaceful and commemorative because of what some extremist to$$ers might think about it?thenewbie said:I agree Chizz and that's pretty much what I was trying to say though not half as eloquently. I just feel the fear is (rightly or wrongly) that a memorial at the scene would act as rallying point for the murderers' allies as much as the victim, who is who we should all remember with pride.
Them considering a memorial as a rallying point or a 'victory' symbol wouldn't make them any more deluded than what they already are, afterall.
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The WW2 memorial in every town probably attracts the odd fruit loop.
The council should listen to do whatever his parents and closest want. If the council won't oblige them with, what would undoubtedly be a publically funded memorial, then they should be ashamed of themselves and remove the Stephen Lawrence one.
However, I don't know what the family want.1 -
There's a big PR thing here though isn't there?
SL's mum and family pushed and pushed for change/justice, rallying the press/going to government etc. Lee's family have been a lot quieter and reflective in their loss, not courting anything political/racial (as far as I'm aware). It does make a difference.
Incomparable events but look at the coverage the McCann's continue to get about Madeline - how many other kids go missing very single year who don't even get a line on a website?
It doesn't seem fair but that's the way the world works it seems. I think there are, on average, two murders a week in the UK (in London) - how many of those are forgotten?
The brutality and proximity of this event stands out for us but a life is a life regardless of circumstance and every single one will be commemorated in a personal way.
I'm not against a memorial at all, in any place (I think the one at The Valley is superb), but it needs to be driven by the wishes of the family who have lost someone in my opinion, not by public opinion.6 -
Apologies, I forgot to add "in London".0
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As far as I'm aware, we don't actually know for sure whether or not the family are pro- or anti-memorial (for whatever reason) and it's all 'I heard x', 'well, I heard y', so if anyone can please get some sources that would be great. The thoughts I have put on here are just my thoughts and if the family DO want a memorial then they should have one. But if they don't, their wishes should be respected. It's they who lost a father, son, and husband and he should be remembered as those who knew him best would wish, however they decide.
I am bowing out of this here though because I haven't the time, patience or any inclination to get drawn into any kind of debate about Stephen Lawrence or memorials in general or any other political fuzz. Once people start telling me what my opinion is it's time to cut my losses and get out I think.1 -
Yes we do know what the family want . It was said by his MOTHER that they want a plaque. Said to those she met in the Liberal a few weeks ago and repeated in the press a few days ago.
The flowers /wreaths left Friday night were swept up and left in a heap Tuesday morning. Greenwich council what a heap of shit you really are.5 -
The murderers themselves should be forgotten, but not the reason why they murdered. That should be at the forefront of everyone's mind in order to combat the warped ideology they and many others have.Chizz said:
I can't speak for anyone else, but I don't think that.brogib said:So neither of you think that not putting a memorial up might be playing into the hands of the Islamists then?
The man deserved to be remembered for his life, not his death. The murderers deserve to be forgotten.
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You're under the wrong assumption that there might actually be a reason for the murders. There wasn't.Sparrows Lane Lion said:
The murderers themselves should be forgotten, but not the reason why they murdered. That should be at the forefront of everyone's mind in order to combat the warped ideology they and many others have.Chizz said:
I can't speak for anyone else, but I don't think that.brogib said:So neither of you think that not putting a memorial up might be playing into the hands of the Islamists then?
The man deserved to be remembered for his life, not his death. The murderers deserve to be forgotten.
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Really? Of course there was a reason in the murderers minds. They pretty much blurted it out to the world on camera afterwards.Chizz said:
You're under the wrong assumption that there might actually be a reason for the murders. There wasn't.Sparrows Lane Lion said:
The murderers themselves should be forgotten, but not the reason why they murdered. That should be at the forefront of everyone's mind in order to combat the warped ideology they and many others have.Chizz said:
I can't speak for anyone else, but I don't think that.brogib said:So neither of you think that not putting a memorial up might be playing into the hands of the Islamists then?
The man deserved to be remembered for his life, not his death. The murderers deserve to be forgotten.3
