Don't get fooled again
That troubled me because it took me back to the meeting in Woolwich last winter, the anger and despair in that freezing room, the determination most of us felt to address the concerns that our club was slipping away from all the values that we loved and cherished. And it took me back to how quickly all that passion dissipated in the face of a string of better results.
Please guys and gals, don't let that happen again.
Roland is still a weirdo, conducting some strange social football experiment at our great club.
Meire is still an incompetent, arrogant puppet who time and again has shown her contempt for us.
KF is still a third rate coach who has been directly responsible for some of the worst signings in our history, and who only has the job (interim) because he will do exactly what he's told.
As great as yesterday was, let's not allow ourselves to be deflected. Let's be focused, determined and resolute.
Win, lose or draw, ROLAND OUT, MEIRE OUT, FRAEYE OUT.
Don't get fooled again.
Comments
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I get your points but if a fan who was there with her says she was crying and another that she was laughing at a comment from a security guard then that gives a different perspective.
I don't see Katrien as some sort of wicked witch. I'm more concerned as to why Roland bought us and the crazy decisions. I can't get angry at KF, Guy etc - I don't blame them one bit. And if it is true that Yann is coming back to appease fans then they can appease us a bit more by bringing back A.C who is still only 58. Happy Birthday to A.C today, by the way.11 -
It wasn't the girly giggling that was so annoying.
It's the fact that she shouldn't have been there at all.
She should have been at home making some bloke his tea.18 -
The thing is Davo, what do we have as an alternative to Staprix? We are unhappy with the Belgians but who is beating on the door to take the club off their hands?. What exactly are the alternatives if RD decided "thats it"?. Bankruptcy possibly. We could almost certainly build up a campaign to rid us if the Belgians but without a "white knight" riding to the rescue that will still leave us buggered.
Many here were glad, desperate even, to get get rid of Curbishley because "he had taken us as far as he could" etc, I bet most would have him back in an instant now.
What exactly is it that we want from the Belgians? better communication? a British Manager?, more investment in the team? a change in attitude? or them just to bugger off and leave us to our own fate? If were looking for more investment I cant see that abusing KM/RD is going to help, and at the moment without an alternative investor we need them probably more than they need us, and personally I am really nervous.
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Halix is bang on about A.C.
The genius fans who said he'd taken us as far as he could and wanted someone to take us into Europe were more wrong about that than anything Katrien has done or said!
How do people know what Katrien is like anyway? I've never met her - have they?2 -
Shocking - You are so Sexist! :Osmudge7946 said:It wasn't the girly giggling that was so annoying.
It's the fact that she shouldn't have been there at all.
She should have been at home making some bloke his tea.9 -
Agree that KM probably is a decent human being and we don't need to demonise her. She probably didn't laugh about the demonstration but being clearly visible from the window taking pictures was badly misjudged. If she needed pictures she should have asked one of her team to take them.Godstone said:I get your points but if a fan who was there with her says she was crying and another that she was laughing at a comment from a security guard then that gives a different perspective.
I don't see Katrien as some sort of wicked witch.
For me these are all side issues. We need an experienced CEO. KM is badly out of her depth and needs to go. KM is Roland's representative and it's right that we target her. I hope that we can steer clear of personal abuse and sexist comments, it undermines the strength of our argument.
I also agree that yesterday's result changes nothing, we now need to focus on getting organised for the Ipswich match.14 -
I agree with Davo. I have from the outset wanted this whole thing to work. Each time we've gone to a new manager I've reluctantly accepted it as the right move, willing to give it a shot. I can't do it again this time. Peeters, Luzon both had decent spells. There had been times when I believed under both that all is starting to take shape. This summer's recruitment drive buoyed me. How quickly it became apparent we were woefully short in quality and depth.
Re: KM I sit quite close to her. The frustrating thing is that when we score she looks just like a fan. She's really into it and seems to get involved like a fan. Yet, as well documented by people like Airman Brown, a string of incidents that call into question her suitability for the role of CEO. A lot of people talk about having a senior leadership team that is ready and willing to challenge RD and say 'actually that's not the right thing to do'. Personally I don't think anyone in RD's business life would actually do this, certainly not when it comes to running a secondary interest like a football club. I don't think RD would tolerate or employ anyone that offers him a view alternate to his own.
I'm not defending KM, far from it. I'm just pointing out that all this talk of standing up to him is for the most part irrelevant. She wants to keep her job, so although we all may think she should be challenging RD and offering alternatives, she never will. Not will anyone else in his circle.
I digress a bit but going back to Davo's post, we need to keep the momentum up. One win in 14 games or whatever it is, isn't enough for us to ease of the gas now and get lulled into think the corner's being turned. I thought we'd turned the corner under Riga. He left and Peeters came in and started well, that's another corner I thought we'd turned. Peeters is sacked and GL gets 7 wins out of 9. New signings this summer and a good start, right that's it, we really have turned the corner. That's 3 corners turned and we're on the home straight to what looks like a square, which is essentially back where we started. That pretty much sums up RD's time. A square and we're going back to where we started23 -
You shouldn't sit there and accept this situation because you're not sure what the alternative is. If we just sit here quietly because no rich businessman has publicly stated how much he'd love to buy Charlton and sign Messi for them then RD can do whatever he wants with the club. They've shown nothing but contempt for us as fans and things are not going to turn around. We need to force them out, and the closer we get to moving them on the more we'll seem like a viable option for an investorHalix said:The thing is Davo, what do we have as an alternative to Staprix? We are unhappy with the Belgians but who is beating on the door to take the club off their hands?. What exactly are the alternatives if RD decided "thats it"?. Bankruptcy possibly. We could almost certainly build up a campaign to rid us if the Belgians but without a "white knight" riding to the rescue that will still leave us buggered.
Many here were glad, desperate even, to get get rid of Curbishley because "he had taken us as far as he could" etc, I bet most would have him back in an instant now.
What exactly is it that we want from the Belgians? better communication? a British Manager?, more investment in the team? a change in attitude? or them just to bugger off and leave us to our own fate? If were looking for more investment I cant see that abusing KM/RD is going to help, and at the moment without an alternative investor we need them probably more than they need us, and personally I am really nervous.10 -
Especially with a lively and committed supporter base.Garrymanilow said:
You shouldn't sit there and accept this situation because you're not sure what the alternative is. If we just sit here quietly because no rich businessman has publicly stated how much he'd love to buy Charlton and sign Messi for them then RD can do whatever he wants with the club. They've shown nothing but contempt for us as fans and things are not going to turn around. We need to force them out, and the closer we get to moving them on the more we'll seem like a viable option for an investorHalix said:The thing is Davo, what do we have as an alternative to Staprix? We are unhappy with the Belgians but who is beating on the door to take the club off their hands?. What exactly are the alternatives if RD decided "thats it"?. Bankruptcy possibly. We could almost certainly build up a campaign to rid us if the Belgians but without a "white knight" riding to the rescue that will still leave us buggered.
Many here were glad, desperate even, to get get rid of Curbishley because "he had taken us as far as he could" etc, I bet most would have him back in an instant now.
What exactly is it that we want from the Belgians? better communication? a British Manager?, more investment in the team? a change in attitude? or them just to bugger off and leave us to our own fate? If were looking for more investment I cant see that abusing KM/RD is going to help, and at the moment without an alternative investor we need them probably more than they need us, and personally I am really nervous.0 -
Not sure i was ever convinced of the RD regime, and the longer it goes on both he and his CEO seem to be talking a different language, at least in the football business sense. I still do not understand the business plan for certain, and sorry do not buy the view' it is his club, he does what he likes. I am even less convinced about `KM.
She may well be just the ''messenger of the vision', carrying out the instructions, but on the times that I have met the lady I have never been convinced of her answers, at least in the main. One of the reasons I dropped down of the board of the Supporters trust was that I did not agree with the fan engagement, or lack of it, from the so called directors of CAFC. The previous lot were bad enough, devisive, and often inept.
Frankly her comments about the history of our club as reported are both insulting and devisive. Frankly I was also rather 'worn out ' with the attempts to communicate in a positive and constructive way with her, and having been the liaison officer of the trust there were many times that i felt we could and should have worked together, but she decided to push the offers aside. If I was a shareholder I would be proposing a vote of no confidence in her position.
Frankly I find RD's position 'bizzare'.
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The point about Katrien Meire is that in whatever space Duchatelet allows her to make decisions she is inept. Even if you take the view that RD decided to adopt a ticketing policy that forced fans in the north stand to buy a lounge or move (abandoned within an hour), sack the programme sales company to save a pittance (mess still on going 12 months later), was RD responsible for the season-ticket fiasco? Did he decide to have a house/garage DJ in the bar yesterday? Is he responsible for her failure to reply to letters and emails? Does he make her daft comments to interviewers?
She is so extremely and obviously out of her depth that it's laughable.27 -
The thing is I am a pragmatist not a idealist, and feel that change for change sake is not a good option. I want things to improve and until I know we can do better do not want to destroy what we already have, but if possible try to modify the situation. There are a lot of boards who have been worse than ours (Blackpools, Leeds, Birminghams, Notts Countys, Portsmouths, etc).Garrymanilow said:
You shouldn't sit there and accept this situation because you're not sure what the alternative is. If we just sit here quietly because no rich businessman has publicly stated how much he'd love to buy Charlton and sign Messi for them then RD can do whatever he wants with the club. They've shown nothing but contempt for us as fans and things are not going to turn around. We need to force them out, and the closer we get to moving them on the more we'll seem like a viable option for an investorHalix said:The thing is Davo, what do we have as an alternative to Staprix? We are unhappy with the Belgians but who is beating on the door to take the club off their hands?. What exactly are the alternatives if RD decided "thats it"?. Bankruptcy possibly. We could almost certainly build up a campaign to rid us if the Belgians but without a "white knight" riding to the rescue that will still leave us buggered.
Many here were glad, desperate even, to get get rid of Curbishley because "he had taken us as far as he could" etc, I bet most would have him back in an instant now.
What exactly is it that we want from the Belgians? better communication? a British Manager?, more investment in the team? a change in attitude? or them just to bugger off and leave us to our own fate? If were looking for more investment I cant see that abusing KM/RD is going to help, and at the moment without an alternative investor we need them probably more than they need us, and personally I am really nervous.
So sorry I cant see what the benefit is of blindly forcing out the board if at the end of the day either no one turns up, or we get someone worse. Remember we wanted the Gliksteins out and got Marman, then we were over the moon to get Sunley, that euphoria didn't last too long did it?
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Rome wasn't built in a day0
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True, but Charlton have been here over a hundred years?creepyaddick said:Rome wasn't built in a day
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That is an inconvenient truth you've written there, @Halix.Halix said:
The thing is I am a pragmatist not a idealist, and feel that change for change sake is not a good option. I want things to improve and until I know we can do better do not want to destroy what we already have, but if possible try to modify the situation. There are a lot of boards who have been worse than ours (Blackpools, Leeds, Birminghams, Notts Countys, Portsmouths, etc).Garrymanilow said:
You shouldn't sit there and accept this situation because you're not sure what the alternative is. If we just sit here quietly because no rich businessman has publicly stated how much he'd love to buy Charlton and sign Messi for them then RD can do whatever he wants with the club. They've shown nothing but contempt for us as fans and things are not going to turn around. We need to force them out, and the closer we get to moving them on the more we'll seem like a viable option for an investorHalix said:The thing is Davo, what do we have as an alternative to Staprix? We are unhappy with the Belgians but who is beating on the door to take the club off their hands?. What exactly are the alternatives if RD decided "thats it"?. Bankruptcy possibly. We could almost certainly build up a campaign to rid us if the Belgians but without a "white knight" riding to the rescue that will still leave us buggered.
Many here were glad, desperate even, to get get rid of Curbishley because "he had taken us as far as he could" etc, I bet most would have him back in an instant now.
What exactly is it that we want from the Belgians? better communication? a British Manager?, more investment in the team? a change in attitude? or them just to bugger off and leave us to our own fate? If were looking for more investment I cant see that abusing KM/RD is going to help, and at the moment without an alternative investor we need them probably more than they need us, and personally I am really nervous.
So sorry I cant see what the benefit is of blindly forcing out the board if at the end of the day either no one turns up, or we get someone worse. Remember we wanted the Gliksteins out and got Marman, then we were over the moon to get Sunley, that euphoria didn't last long did it?
A private, 100% owner is not like Greenwich Council, or the LLDC. You can't force him to do anything. You can, at least in principal, persuade him do things. And as we all know, the art of persuasion is quite subtle and takes many forms.
We need ownership which has reasonable objectives which sustain CAFC and which enthuse the 15,000 or so core support to keep turning up, and to be active in "supporting" the club in various ways, as happened during the 90s. It's most likely that this will also be achieved by having regular dialogue with the fanbase and by harnessing the enthusiasm of committed fans who want to help develop the club and its fortunes, (that includes hiring some of them on a professional basis.) be they 18 years old like @Addickted2theReds, or at the senior end like @GlassHalfFull ,who despite battling a painful medical condition was prepared to travel to Jena and reach out to the fans and club there.4 -
I find myself agreeing with both the OP and this post. This is a personal view I hasten to add, but I would be perfectly happy with RD still owning the club if there was clear vision, strategy and and execution plan to improve us on and off the pitch, and all that took us along on the journey.Halix said:The thing is Davo, what do we have as an alternative to Staprix? We are unhappy with the Belgians but who is beating on the door to take the club off their hands?. What exactly are the alternatives if RD decided "thats it"?. Bankruptcy possibly. We could almost certainly build up a campaign to rid us if the Belgians but without a "white knight" riding to the rescue that will still leave us buggered.
Many here were glad, desperate even, to get get rid of Curbishley because "he had taken us as far as he could" etc, I bet most would have him back in an instant now.
What exactly is it that we want from the Belgians? better communication? a British Manager?, more investment in the team? a change in attitude? or them just to bugger off and leave us to our own fate? If were looking for more investment I cant see that abusing KM/RD is going to help, and at the moment without an alternative investor we need them probably more than they need us, and personally I am really nervous.
I must concede that I'd not expected the numbers that turned up to the protest yesterday, and I respect that - like the OP though I left the Valley with the same fear that a good run of results will paper over the true issues that many of us have been expressing recently: the club is poorly run, and it disregards its customers, us supporters.
But yes, RD could fix it. He's intelligent enough, he's wealthy enough - but is he willing? That's why we have to enjoy the good runs without taking our eye off of the underlying issues that emotionally they may make us feel transiently less important.
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Its all about results for the majority, If Charlton say win 10 games out of the next 15 and then someone suggests a protest in the car park i reckon you would be lucky to get twenty people who turned up. Carol would be the next messiah too.
I belive most are annoyed because the old roly built a squad that was paper thin in the summer so therefore are we just asking him to splash the cash?
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Bulk up the squad that's all it needs, we have been very very unlucky with injuries0
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The problem is far more than injuries - while accepting that has been a problem - it is about the whole way the club is run. Signings, gimmicks, disdain for fans, poor managerial appointments, arrogance ... as it stands, we could bulk up the squad but those we brought in would in all likelihood be not up to itcreepyaddick said:Bulk up the squad that's all it needs, we have been very very unlucky with injuries
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She's not the root cause of the malaise but she is symptomatic of it and she is simply not able enough to run a football club. That she was even at the window is indicative of her lack of judgement. Hundreds saw her at the window, hundreds saw her laugh. Anyone else see her cry?Godstone said:I get your points but if a fan who was there with her says she was crying and another that she was laughing at a comment from a security guard then that gives a different perspective.
I don't see Katrien as some sort of wicked witch. I'm more concerned as to why Roland bought us and the crazy decisions. I can't get angry at KF, Guy etc - I don't blame them one bit. And if it is true that Yann is coming back to appease fans then they can appease us a bit more by bringing back A.C who is still only 58. Happy Birthday to A.C today, by the way.3 -
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Is that the same disdain for fans shown by all the premier league teams?
the same managerial appointments shown by QPR and Huddersfield this week?
Get a grip, we are fans of one of 92 league teams which are all saying the same thing!
The only way you would get a say in how a club is run is to put your money where your mouth is.1 -
The truth behind all of this is that we all want the same things - success for Charlton Athletic. If the owner started making sensible decisions, we would quickly forgive him and get behind him. It may be annoying that FFP rules have changed, and how much money it costs to be competitive, but to go with as weak a squad as we have in such a demanding division is beyond eccentric. Even more so, because there actually some good players at the club. Unfortunately, one, but only one, of those sensible decisions would be to replace Miere with somebody who knows what they are doing!2
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I have.Godstone said:Halix is bang on about A.C.
The genius fans who said he'd taken us as far as he could and wanted someone to take us into Europe were more wrong about that than anything Katrien has done or said!
How do people know what Katrien is like anyway? I've never met her - have they?0 -
Davo55 I was also at the Woolwich meeting and I also find much empathy with your feelings that also reflect mind.... but regarding your comments about KF I cannot see how you know that he is 'third rate' ( he did well with Riga anyway) and for the record he has never been a scout and was not involved or responsible for any of OUR previous signings although he was somewhat instrumental in recommending Igor whom he had worked with.Davo55 said:Amongst the unexpected joy of a very good performance and a much needed win yesterday, one thing troubled me - a lot. That is, the smattering of posts on several threads which either stated outright or implied that perhaps KM wasn't really all that bad with her nervous girly giggling, that KF deserved credit for the tactical and motivational expertise that drew such a good response from the players, that all could yet be well in the CAFC season.
That troubled me because it took me back to the meeting in Woolwich last winter, the anger and despair in that freezing room, the determination most of us felt to address the concerns that our club was slipping away from all the values that we loved and cherished. And it took me back to how quickly all that passion dissipated in the face of a string of better results.
Please guys and gals, don't let that happen again.
Roland is still a weirdo, conducting some strange social football experiment at our great club.
Meire is still an incompetent, arrogant puppet who time and again has shown her contempt for us.
KF is still a third rate coach who has been directly responsible for some of the worst signings in our history, and who only has the job (interim) because he will do exactly what he's told.
As great as yesterday was, let's not allow ourselves to be deflected. Let's be focused, determined and resolute.
Win, lose or draw, ROLAND OUT, MEIRE OUT, FRAEYE OUT.
Don't get fooled again.
And yes, he is employed by the puppet master but that does not necessarily make him a puppet, as least not any more than anyone of us who is an employee.
I have met him and was tremendously impressed with his knowledge and analysis of the way the team had been set up and playing with GL, so maybe I am foolish but I do think that he will get the best out of our current players and get them to play as a team that know what their individual jobs are.
Of course he needs backing from RD and KM and I am sure he will get some..... but I think none of us has any faith in whoever buys the players!!!
More optimistic today anyway!
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I appreciate the thoughtful response @Halix, and I understand your perspective.Halix said:The thing is Davo, what do we have as an alternative to Staprix? We are unhappy with the Belgians but who is beating on the door to take the club off their hands?. What exactly are the alternatives if RD decided "thats it"?. Bankruptcy possibly. We could almost certainly build up a campaign to rid us if the Belgians but without a "white knight" riding to the rescue that will still leave us buggered.
Many here were glad, desperate even, to get get rid of Curbishley because "he had taken us as far as he could" etc, I bet most would have him back in an instant now.
What exactly is it that we want from the Belgians? better communication? a British Manager?, more investment in the team? a change in attitude? or them just to bugger off and leave us to our own fate? If were looking for more investment I cant see that abusing KM/RD is going to help, and at the moment without an alternative investor we need them probably more than they need us, and personally I am really nervous.
But for me, this feels like a survival issue. The soul of our club is gradually and steadily being drained away by Roland and his crowd of lap dogs. I feel that a just a few more years of Roland will damage and change the heart and soul of our club beyond recognition and beyond repair. The steady and slow exodus of long term fans will have become a flood, and whatever division we are in by then, we won't recognise the club we have all loved for so long.
I don't believe he would just walk away from the investment he has made so far - which I acknowledge in terms of non-playing assets and infrastructure is good and getting better. I have to believe that there is an alternative investor out there who can see the potential, be prepared to invest in a new dream, and take us forward in a way that is respectful of our history, appreciative of our fans and about the football, rather than a football based social experiment.
What do I want?
1. An owner who cares about the club, it's history and the quality of football it plays.
2. A CEO who is a true leader of the whole organisation and ensures it performs in a customer/fan centric way, recognising that the fans are critical to the success sought on and off the pitch.
3. A playing and non-playing operating budget that enables the club to operate in an effective and competitive way.
4. A manager or head coach selected for their knowledge and ability in that role, who is given a free hand within agreed budgetary constraints to buy, sell, and develop the playing talent and is judged on their results, not their degree of obedience/obsequience.
I have always taken the rough with the smooth with Charlton. The good times from a performance and results perspective have always been fewer and briefer than the bad times. That's fine with me. I'm ok with the ups and downs. But it has always felt like my club, my Charlton, and that it what is now starting to change.
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I think you're right, and that's the worrying thing. There will be good performances and good results from time to time, but underlying that excitement the slow death will still be going on.scabbyhorse said:Its all about results for the majority, If Charlton say win 10 games out of the next 15 and then someone suggests a protest in the car park i reckon you would be lucky to get twenty people who turned up. Carol would be the next messiah too.
I belive most are annoyed because the old roly built a squad that was paper thin in the summer so therefore are we just asking him to splash the cash?0 -
The crowds are on the slide in any case - even when we started this season well, attendances were down. Also evidence that a lot are hesitating about renewing season tickets in future. That is a sign of a much deeper malaise at the Club, and that needs addressed regardless of match by match results.4
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Interesting to hear your views, @Desperate_PeteDesperate_Pete said:
Davo55 I was also at the Woolwich meeting and I also find much empathy with your feelings that also reflect mind.... but regarding your comments about KF I cannot see how you know that he is 'third rate' ( he did well with Riga anyway) and for the record he has never been a scout and was not involved or responsible for any of OUR previous signings although he was somewhat instrumental in recommending Igor whom he had worked with.Davo55 said:Amongst the unexpected joy of a very good performance and a much needed win yesterday, one thing troubled me - a lot. That is, the smattering of posts on several threads which either stated outright or implied that perhaps KM wasn't really all that bad with her nervous girly giggling, that KF deserved credit for the tactical and motivational expertise that drew such a good response from the players, that all could yet be well in the CAFC season.
That troubled me because it took me back to the meeting in Woolwich last winter, the anger and despair in that freezing room, the determination most of us felt to address the concerns that our club was slipping away from all the values that we loved and cherished. And it took me back to how quickly all that passion dissipated in the face of a string of better results.
Please guys and gals, don't let that happen again.
Roland is still a weirdo, conducting some strange social football experiment at our great club.
Meire is still an incompetent, arrogant puppet who time and again has shown her contempt for us.
KF is still a third rate coach who has been directly responsible for some of the worst signings in our history, and who only has the job (interim) because he will do exactly what he's told.
As great as yesterday was, let's not allow ourselves to be deflected. Let's be focused, determined and resolute.
Win, lose or draw, ROLAND OUT, MEIRE OUT, FRAEYE OUT.
Don't get fooled again.
And yes, he is employed by the puppet master but that does not necessarily make him a puppet, as least not any more than anyone of us who is an employee.
I have met him and was tremendously impressed with his knowledge and analysis of the way the team had been set up and playing with GL, so maybe I am foolish but I do think that he will get the best out of our current players and get them to play as a team that know what their individual jobs are.
Of course he needs backing from RD and KM and I am sure he will get some..... but I think none of us has any faith in whoever buys the players!!!
More optimistic today anyway!
My opinion of Fraeye is based solely on his track record to date, which if I read correctly was in the 3rd level Belgian league (other than his stint here as number two to Riga). And I had heard that many of the players brought in under Roland's tenure were recommended by Fraeye, to the extent that Phil Chapple was marginalised. Is that mistaken?
I am mildly encouraged by your views on the basis of having met him. I really, really hope you're right.0 -
No matter how Carole turns out, the selection process that bought him here is fundamentally flawed, and is an ongoing proccess that has seen 4 managers in 20 months (or thereabots) and shows no sign of changing. I hope IF we are stuck with Carole, he turns things around, but the simple fact is that with a huge number of experienced championship managers out of work and availible, RD's immediate impulse was to call in an unknown Belgian doing nothing impressive in the Belgian third división. Whatever the criteria involved in bringing him here, football factors were not a major consideration.
KM is as is becoming week by week more obvious, an inexperienced and ill judged option for CEO, and i is hard to see how a successfull businessman would want to keep her, given how catastrophic every seasn is becoming. If the decisions are hers, she should have been invite to leave some time ago. If it is all RD, he shuld accept he is completely out of his depth and bring i someone who knows the game and the league, and lsten to them.
Despite the above, I am still glowing after yesterday, but it's only one win after twelve games, so it's hardly time to embrace the regime. But sadly, as was said earlier, awin or two more and everyone will be saying everything is great again. We'll wait and see I suppose.5
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TnAgc1kgvLc
