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Charlton 10 - 0 Belfast United March 1923

Henry Irving
Henry Irving Posts: 85,225
in General Charlton
Great friendly win but who were Belfast United?

Can't find any mention of them so were they a representative side, a team of soldiers based in Woolwich, a local side of Irish immigrants?

@NornIrishAddick or anyone out there have more info.

If I can't find it here will have to ask the museum : - )

Comments

  • TEL
    TEL Posts: 10,100
    They have a twitter feed if you have an account #@bufc_official
    The 1923 side might not be linked but worth asking I guess.
  • sammy391
    sammy391 Posts: 3,782
    Henry Irving said:

    Great friendly win but who were Belfast United?

    Can't find any mention of them so were they a representative side, a team of soldiers based in Woolwich, a local side of Irish immigrants?

    @NornIrishAddick or anyone out there have more info.

    If I can't find it here will have to ask the museum : - )

    I think the museum have already asked ... Saw them tweet about it tho other day!
  • ElfsborgAddick
    ElfsborgAddick Posts: 29,044
    If anyone has a spare programme......
  • Callumcafc
    Callumcafc Posts: 63,766
    I was there.
  • guinnessaddick
    guinnessaddick Posts: 28,633
    edited March 2016
    I found on line that Liverpool signed a player called Billy McDivitt from Belfast Utd in 1923, this suggests that were a proper football club as opposed to a team of soldiers based in Woolwich or a local side of Irish immigrants.
  • SDAddick
    SDAddick Posts: 14,467
    I know times are rough but it's a bit sad when we're having to go back 90+ years for inspiration...
  • soapy_jones
    soapy_jones Posts: 21,353
    Charlton 0 - 3 Belfast United March 2016
  • cherryorchard
    cherryorchard Posts: 1,721
    Formed in 1915 in Belfast: Is referred to as 'newly formed' in a match report in the Dublin Daily Express of Monday 29 October 1915 on their visit down south to play Bohemians in Dublin. Bohemians won 1-0.
  • NornIrishAddick
    NornIrishAddick Posts: 9,623
    I'd never heard of them before today (there's a very basic webpage that lists the final league table positions for the Irish League between 1890 and 1989 http://rsssf.com/tablesn/nilhist.html. Strangely though listed on Wikipedia's 1916-17 Belfast and District League page, it's the only team without a page of its own.

    Sorry, I'm only in Belfast for work, I live about 70 miles away.
  • smudge7946
    smudge7946 Posts: 4,131
    Maybe the shame of losing to Charlton made them fold and erase themselves from history.
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  • Henry Irving
    Henry Irving Posts: 85,225
    Thanks guys.

    Any more info appreciated.
  • LenGlover
    LenGlover Posts: 31,651
    edited March 2016
    Found this
    http://playupliverpool.com/1918/01/15/an-irish-idea-of-juniors/

    and this

    http://playupliverpool.com/1923/06/16/noted-irish-winger-transferred-to-liverpool/

    May have been an historic link to Liverpool rather like Margate had to Arsenal in the thirties.

    A more general link which has more plus the two already shown.

    http://playupliverpool.com/tag/belfast-united/

    and this

    http://www.glenniewebdesign.com/IFCP/home.online.no/_smogols/ifcp/clubs/defunctbelfastunited/clubbelfastunited.html
  • Henry Irving
    Henry Irving Posts: 85,225
    Thanks Len.

    So there they were a club side.

    Wonder why we were playing them.
  • SheffieldRed
    SheffieldRed Posts: 3,772

    The lifer who wrote "The Charlton Men", I believe is the same person who wrote on Belfast football history for the Football Pink. If you know his username, he may be able to assist.
  • cherryorchard
    cherryorchard Posts: 1,721
    edited March 2016
    Found out a bit more about Belfast United. Their first goalkeeper in 1915 was Elisha Scott which confused me as he signed for Liverpool in 1912 and played for them in goal until 1934 (understand longest serving Liverpool player ever). However on further research I discovered special wartime regulations were brought in in 1915 which partially freed players to turn out for a club other than their own - near their home or workplace or seek permission from their club to play elsewhere. According to Dr Matthew Taylor's Book The Leaguers: The Making of Professional Football in England 1900-1939 'Difficulties soon arrived when British Clubs, particularly the newly formed Belfast United began to sign Football League Players'.

    Taylor also mentions the case of Man Utd's George Anderson who was apparently induced to play for Belfast United with promise of accommodation and a job. (Anderson was later sentenced to 8 months for match fixing scandal whilst playing for MU).

    Finally Belfast United applied to join the Football League in August 1922 but (perhaps not surprisingly) turned down. Could explain why 6 months later they were visiting England and playing us.
  • Henry Irving
    Henry Irving Posts: 85,225
    SheffieldRed said:


    The lifer who wrote "The Charlton Men", I believe is the same person who wrote on Belfast football history for the Football Pink. If you know his username, he may be able to assist.

    That would be @centurion Thanks
    cherryorchard said:

    Found out a bit more about Belfast United. Their first goalkeeper in 1915 was Elisha Scott which confused me as he signed for Liverpool in 1912 and played for them in goal until 1934 (understand longest serving Liverpool player ever). However on further research I discovered special wartime regulations were brought in in 1915 which partially freed players to turn out for a club other than their own - near their home or workplace or seek permission from their club to play elsewhere. According to Dr Matthew Taylor's Book The Leaguers: The Making of Professional Football in England 1900-1939 'Difficulties soon arrived when British Clubs, particularly the newly formed Belfast United began to sign Football League Players'.

    Taylor also mentions the case of Man Utd's George Anderson who was apparently induced to play for Belfast United with promise of accommodation and a job. (Anderson was later sentenced to 8 months for match fixing scandal whilst playing for MU).

    Finally Belfast United applied to join the Football League in August 1922 but (perhaps not surprisingly) turned down. Could explain why 6 months later they were visiting England and playing us.

    Fascinating stuff.

    Would imagine a 10 - 0 thrashing by a third Div south side didn't help their cause.
  • Henry Irving
    Henry Irving Posts: 85,225
    Some info from Charlie Connelly (buy his books)

    ----------------------------------

    A few nuggets of info on Belfast United.

    They appeared in 1915, playing in the Belfast and District League (that had replaced the Irish League for the duration of the war). I think there might have been a connection to Belfast Celtic but I can't be certain.

    They seem quite ambitious at the start and must have a) been professional and b) had a few quid behind them as early signings included players from teams like Liverpool, Leicester Fosse and Sunderland. They played a friendly at Manchester United in December 1915, drawing 2-2, and had tried to arrange a match at Derby County on the same trip which didn't seem to happen, but clearly they had big ambitions. There is a smattering of friendly matches against English teams in their first decade or so of existence, not to mention players going to and arriving from English clubs.

    From what I can tell they went into the Irish Intermediate League after the war, the second tier of Northern Irish football below the Irish League. They applied for admission to the Irish League on at least a couple of occasions, in 1923 and 1925, but were turned down.

    They seem to vanish into the mists of history in the mid-thirties; there don't seem to be any references to matches after 1936.

    Pic attached from October 1923 - presumably some of these lads would have played against Charlton.

    Best

    Charlie

    image
  • IA
    IA Posts: 6,103
    George Best, Christine Bleakley, Colin Murray, Gerry Adams, Ian Paisley, Bobby Sands, Eamon Holmes, Alex Higgins.

    Arlene Foster, can you hear me? Arlene Foster, your boys took one hell of a beating 93 years ago.
  • Stig
    Stig Posts: 29,026
    I had a quick skim through Joyce (the pre-war Players bible) last night but could find no references to Belfast United, but I did find references to other Belfast clubs. That doesn't mean they aren't there - as I say it was just a skim.

    However I was very interested in @cherryorchard 's information this morning, so I looked up Elisha Scott. Guess what? No mention of Belfast United. According to Joyce, his clubs were Belfast Boys Brigade, Linfield, Broadway United, Liverpool, Belfast Celtic. I wonder whether Belfast United was an alternative name to one of those other clubs.
  • LargeAddick
    LargeAddick Posts: 32,561
    Henry Irving said:

    Thanks Len.

    So there they were a club side.

    Wonder why we were playing them.


    Good job Len has the Internet and has heard of Google :-(
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  • cherryorchard
    cherryorchard Posts: 1,721
    Stig said:

    I had a quick skim through Joyce (the pre-war Players bible) last night but could find no references to Belfast United, but I did find references to other Belfast clubs. That doesn't mean they aren't there - as I say it was just a skim.

    However I was very interested in @cherryorchard 's information this morning, so I looked up Elisha Scott. Guess what? No mention of Belfast United. According to Joyce, his clubs were Belfast Boys Brigade, Linfield, Broadway United, Liverpool, Belfast Celtic. I wonder whether Belfast United was an alternative name to one of those other clubs.

    I think his playing days for Belfast United are possibly not mentioned because it was on an 'as hoc' basis as he was playing for Belfast under the 1915 war time agreement. Officially he was a Liverpool player.

    Phew! Probably enough material here for a PhD ' The role of football in Ireland during World War One, The Easter Rising, Partition and the Irish Civil War' Discuss!!!
  • seth plum
    seth plum Posts: 53,448
    This is a great thread.
  • guinnessaddick
    guinnessaddick Posts: 28,633
    cherryorchard said:

    Stig said:

    I had a quick skim through Joyce (the pre-war Players bible) last night but could find no references to Belfast United, but I did find references to other Belfast clubs. That doesn't mean they aren't there - as I say it was just a skim.

    However I was very interested in @cherryorchard 's information this morning, so I looked up Elisha Scott. Guess what? No mention of Belfast United. According to Joyce, his clubs were Belfast Boys Brigade, Linfield, Broadway United, Liverpool, Belfast Celtic. I wonder whether Belfast United was an alternative name to one of those other clubs.

    I think his playing days for Belfast United are possibly not mentioned because it was on an 'as hoc' basis as he was playing for Belfast under the 1915 war time agreement. Officially he was a Liverpool player.

    Phew! Probably enough material here for a PhD ' The role of football in Ireland during World War One, The Easter Rising, Partition and the Irish Civil War' Discuss!!!
    Some interesting chapters in this book about the whole subject of football, both north & south of the border.
    http://www.amazon.co.uk/Beating-Them-Their-Own-Game/dp/1905483104
  • ForeverAddickted
    ForeverAddickted Posts: 94,319
    Morgan Fox still only got an average of 3.46 from the statbank after that match.

    Apparently the Belfast winger ran him ragged!!
  • IA
    IA Posts: 6,103
    ForeverAddickted said:

    Morgan Fox still only got an average of 3.46 from the statbank after that match.

    Apparently the Belfast winger ran him ragged!!

    Jackson's legs had gone.
  • cherryorchard
    cherryorchard Posts: 1,721
    Belfast United were still going in 1939. Match report from Ballymena Observer of 23 June 1939: Garvin Cup First Round 14 June: Belfast United v Randalstown played at Moyola Park Castledawson. 2 -2. Team: McClure; Crymble; McIlwraith, Graham, Birch, Kennedy, McCandless, Griffiths, Cowan; McKeon; Drain. Replay was scheduled to take place at same venue on 22 June 1939. Can't find any further trace. As within a couple of months WW2 broke out would probably explain why the club possibly folded.
  • NornIrishAddick
    NornIrishAddick Posts: 9,623
    There is a Belfast United playing in one of the Football Federation Leagues in Northern Ireland, not the same, I'd imagine.
  • Henry Irving
    Henry Irving Posts: 85,225
    edited September 2022
    So a few years on the museum is contacted by a fan with some very rare early programmes and Paul Baker, our programme guru, has borrowed and copied them.

    Including Charlton 10 - 0 Belfast Utd 0

    More information in Paul's upcoming book on the Addicks before we joined the Football League.

    Note the public meeting in Woolwich to support the club's application to join the league as well as the early away travel organised by Co-op

    The Valley?  No, just Adjoining Charlton Lane and Charlton Lane

    And all the buses go to the Village, only trams on what we assume is the Woolwich Road




  • Henry Irving
    Henry Irving Posts: 85,225


    G F Bass listed here as a linesman was, I believe, a Charlton player



    A chance to buy some shares in the club as well as to buy some fish from Arthur Bryant.  In other programmes and histories the names of the original Addick is spelt "Bryan" so we assume that this is typo from the then Comms team, who would have got a lot of stick on Charlton Life a the time for the mistake.

    Our first team are midtable in the Southern League.   Boscombe went on to be Bournemouth and Boscombe and are now AFC Bournemouth but we were mainly playing reserve sides as most southern sides had already jumped ship for the football league.  Charlton followed suit that summer

    Our reserve side are doing well in the Kent League.  Note the military teams (RMLI, RN Depot and Depot RE) and the factory teams (Ordnance and Vickers) along with the more familiar Kent town clubs. Charlton pipped Maidstone for the title by two points.



    My father told me takes of waiting outside Gradidge's for autographs of famous cricketer who came to collect their handmade bats and getting caned at school afterwards for turning up late for school because he'd been waiting

    To his lasting horror, his mother gave away his bat with all the signatures, and his other toys, while he was away in the army during the war as, as she said "The kids had nothing to play with". 

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