Valley Move, is it a bad thing ?
Comments
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It all depends how quickly the Target 20k group hit the numbers they are looking for. As soon as the group report back to RD & KM that 20k will be attending each home game I am sure the astute business side of them both will give the group a new target.
Target 30k or 40k will need more seats to play with.
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I don't mind the Greenwich peninsula and it's easier to get to for those with jubilee line access.
I don't understand why the land the Valley is on would be better for developers than the peninsula where flats are going up very quickly.
Only if having a football ground under flats/hotel with shops made the accomodation more expensive would this make sense to me.
Parking is shit on the peninsula as well. The best way to get a parking space would be to book cinema tickets at the same time as a game as then you get free parking. If the club could negotiate similar then that would be a big bonus especially post 2020 or whenever the new tunnel opens and makes Blackwall a more reliable ways of getting north to south (alledgedly)0 -
Would they still go if their team dropped out the PL???killerandflash said:
All the big London PL clubs have much bigger fan bases than us. Think of the number of fake replica shirts sold in markets, the number of casual fans they have, the season ticket waiting listsLincsaddick said:The Valley is lovely but tatty and needs a major refurbishment .. really time to move out, sell the land for housing and invest in a new home .. a move to a brand spanking new all purpose stadium is just what CAFC needs .. BUT .. with all the London premier clubs moving into new 55/60,000+ seated stadia, will even a 35,000 seater suit our long term needs ? .. I digress, but will we ever again hope to compete with the mega rich big boys ?
This isn't knocking Valley Express, but I doubt any of the big PL London teams run cheap coaches to bring fans in, or need to.0 -
Do you really think we could ever justify a 40K stadium? Charlton would have to be consistent top 6 premier league contenders over a long period of time to attract crowds like that regularly.
If we did achieve that? Id much rather dig out the 2004 plans to expand the Valley and stay here, I dont want to leave.7 -
Someone mentioned a new stadium having a Nandos... I'd fucking take that. I'd love to watch the footie with a tasty Extra Hot 1/2 Chicken, garlic bread and chips...
In reality though, I can see the advantages but do we need it? We've got a modern stadium, arguably bigger than we need currently, located at our home. A ground we fought for and has a story attached to it.
In the future? Who knows, if we hit the big time and can't expand then that's a bit different..5 -
100 per cent bad0
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I stand corrected.bobmunro said:
Not a particularly accurate assessment there!! Our strategy is to break-even - no more.SDAddick said:
And this was done on the deficit spending of Peter Coates. I think it was 2-3 years back that Stoke were one of the clubs with the highest wages:turnover ratios. Knowing Mark Hughes' tendencies, I doubt that's changed much. Same can be said of Bournemouth, Watford, and previously QPR, Bolton, Blackburn, Portsmouth, etc. etc.Leeds_Addick said:
We could sustain ourselves as a big club in the PL with the stadium we've got.The_President said:If it means RD moving out then its a good thing- no doubts.
In any other situation, its a good thing too, with no doubts either.
To me, its a no-brainer. You cant be sentimental in Football, you have to keep moving forwards- because all other clubs are trying to.
Its a huge opportunity - and its right on our bleedin doorstep !
Or stay at The Valley, stay Lidl Ol Charlton, stay watching Aldershot and Accrington at home with the other dwindling 4 thousand, selling all youth that are any good to Palace and prob Millwall.
The Brittania holds 27,000 and Stoke are a well established premier league club.
The only situation I'd be happy about moving in is if we were aiming for consistent top 10 finishes and planning applications for 40k at The Valley had been turned down.
El Presidente and I had a good discussion on this a couple weeks back. All-in-all I'm against moving, mostly because I just don't see the upside as being all that huge. I think you could expand The Valley by another 5k seats, which would put us in the 32k realm. Qualms with SE rail et al aside, we could do with better transport links, which would certainly help fill the ground.
I would say that with teams like Bournemouth, QPR, Stoke etc. in the Prem, and Leeds, Forest, Villa, etc. in the second tier, there is no guarantee that a 27k or even a 32k or 35k seater stadium will make us Premier League mainstays. The money now is in partnerships and overseas sponsors/investors/TV money. All of this is why I see it as a bit of a moot point.
A new stadium isn't really going to be the thing to get us to the Premier League, and it's not all that likely it'd keep us there (keeping in mind looking five years out is a fool's errand the way things in football are).
The best way for us to get to, and stay in, the top flightis years of good infrastructure work, shrewd investment in youth players, good, consistent scouting, employing some of the up-and-coming best behind the scenes and in key footballing roles such as coaches, and a long, patient movement toward breaking even and an overall fiscally responsible way of running the cluba rich man buying us and investing loads in deficit spending to get us up to the Premier League.
Stoke City
2013-14 Turnover 14th - Wage Bill 16th - Profit £3m
2014-15 Turnover 16th - Wage Bill 16th - Profit £5m
Net 'friendly debt' £33m - reducing. Ground & Training Ground - owned outright - no mortgages.
The big loss in 2012-13 was to pay for the new Cat 1 training ground.
One of the things I genuinely love about CL is that people fact check you.
I still recall that at some point Stoke were operating at a loss, potentially when they first came up, but I will investigate. My memory for football isn't what it used to be.0 -
Valley Move, is it a bad thing ?
Yes it is.1 -
What exactly is the argument against staying at the Valley?1
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It's not so much fact checking, SD - Stoke City is something I have to live with far more than I would wish!!SDAddick said:
I stand corrected.bobmunro said:
Not a particularly accurate assessment there!! Our strategy is to break-even - no more.SDAddick said:
And this was done on the deficit spending of Peter Coates. I think it was 2-3 years back that Stoke were one of the clubs with the highest wages:turnover ratios. Knowing Mark Hughes' tendencies, I doubt that's changed much. Same can be said of Bournemouth, Watford, and previously QPR, Bolton, Blackburn, Portsmouth, etc. etc.Leeds_Addick said:
We could sustain ourselves as a big club in the PL with the stadium we've got.The_President said:If it means RD moving out then its a good thing- no doubts.
In any other situation, its a good thing too, with no doubts either.
To me, its a no-brainer. You cant be sentimental in Football, you have to keep moving forwards- because all other clubs are trying to.
Its a huge opportunity - and its right on our bleedin doorstep !
Or stay at The Valley, stay Lidl Ol Charlton, stay watching Aldershot and Accrington at home with the other dwindling 4 thousand, selling all youth that are any good to Palace and prob Millwall.
The Brittania holds 27,000 and Stoke are a well established premier league club.
The only situation I'd be happy about moving in is if we were aiming for consistent top 10 finishes and planning applications for 40k at The Valley had been turned down.
El Presidente and I had a good discussion on this a couple weeks back. All-in-all I'm against moving, mostly because I just don't see the upside as being all that huge. I think you could expand The Valley by another 5k seats, which would put us in the 32k realm. Qualms with SE rail et al aside, we could do with better transport links, which would certainly help fill the ground.
I would say that with teams like Bournemouth, QPR, Stoke etc. in the Prem, and Leeds, Forest, Villa, etc. in the second tier, there is no guarantee that a 27k or even a 32k or 35k seater stadium will make us Premier League mainstays. The money now is in partnerships and overseas sponsors/investors/TV money. All of this is why I see it as a bit of a moot point.
A new stadium isn't really going to be the thing to get us to the Premier League, and it's not all that likely it'd keep us there (keeping in mind looking five years out is a fool's errand the way things in football are).
The best way for us to get to, and stay in, the top flightis years of good infrastructure work, shrewd investment in youth players, good, consistent scouting, employing some of the up-and-coming best behind the scenes and in key footballing roles such as coaches, and a long, patient movement toward breaking even and an overall fiscally responsible way of running the cluba rich man buying us and investing loads in deficit spending to get us up to the Premier League.
Stoke City
2013-14 Turnover 14th - Wage Bill 16th - Profit £3m
2014-15 Turnover 16th - Wage Bill 16th - Profit £5m
Net 'friendly debt' £33m - reducing. Ground & Training Ground - owned outright - no mortgages.
The big loss in 2012-13 was to pay for the new Cat 1 training ground.
One of the things I genuinely love about CL is that people fact check you.
I still recall that at some point Stoke were operating at a loss, potentially when they first came up, but I will investigate. My memory for football isn't what it used to be.1 - Sponsored links:
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The chances of Arsenal, Chelsea and Tottenham dropping out of the PL are minimally small now, and West Ham would have had to have a stinker of a season to go down1StevieG said:
Would they still go if their team dropped out the PL???killerandflash said:
All the big London PL clubs have much bigger fan bases than us. Think of the number of fake replica shirts sold in markets, the number of casual fans they have, the season ticket waiting listsLincsaddick said:The Valley is lovely but tatty and needs a major refurbishment .. really time to move out, sell the land for housing and invest in a new home .. a move to a brand spanking new all purpose stadium is just what CAFC needs .. BUT .. with all the London premier clubs moving into new 55/60,000+ seated stadia, will even a 35,000 seater suit our long term needs ? .. I digress, but will we ever again hope to compete with the mega rich big boys ?
This isn't knocking Valley Express, but I doubt any of the big PL London teams run cheap coaches to bring fans in, or need to.
The peninsula is great for central London access, or er Stratford and West Ham, but lousy for much of Charlton's fanbase in Bexleyheath and further out.Alwaysneil said:I don't mind the Greenwich peninsula and it's easier to get to for those with jubilee line access.
I don't understand why the land the Valley is on would be better for developers than the peninsula where flats are going up very quickly.
Only if having a football ground under flats/hotel with shops made the accomodation more expensive would this make sense to me.
Parking is shit on the peninsula as well. The best way to get a parking space would be to book cinema tickets at the same time as a game as then you get free parking. If the club could negotiate similar then that would be a big bonus especially post 2020 or whenever the new tunnel opens and makes Blackwall a more reliable ways of getting north to south (alledgedly)6 -
Don't really see why we move. The Valley is not old, with only one stand more than 25 years old and the bulk much newer. Facilities are good, access by train and road, and a capacity befitting our status. What is to be gained by a move to a bigger modern ground with no soul or history? Most clubs move because of money from bigger capacities (West Ham, Arsenal etc) or because their grounds are old and not viable. Not because they fancy a change of postcode. The problem is the owner, not the ground.4
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My deepest condolences. And thank you for making me not feel so lazy at just past 6am in the morning my timebobmunro said:
It's not so much fact checking, SD - Stoke City is something I have to live with far more than I would wish!!SDAddick said:
I stand corrected.bobmunro said:
Not a particularly accurate assessment there!! Our strategy is to break-even - no more.SDAddick said:
And this was done on the deficit spending of Peter Coates. I think it was 2-3 years back that Stoke were one of the clubs with the highest wages:turnover ratios. Knowing Mark Hughes' tendencies, I doubt that's changed much. Same can be said of Bournemouth, Watford, and previously QPR, Bolton, Blackburn, Portsmouth, etc. etc.Leeds_Addick said:
We could sustain ourselves as a big club in the PL with the stadium we've got.The_President said:If it means RD moving out then its a good thing- no doubts.
In any other situation, its a good thing too, with no doubts either.
To me, its a no-brainer. You cant be sentimental in Football, you have to keep moving forwards- because all other clubs are trying to.
Its a huge opportunity - and its right on our bleedin doorstep !
Or stay at The Valley, stay Lidl Ol Charlton, stay watching Aldershot and Accrington at home with the other dwindling 4 thousand, selling all youth that are any good to Palace and prob Millwall.
The Brittania holds 27,000 and Stoke are a well established premier league club.
The only situation I'd be happy about moving in is if we were aiming for consistent top 10 finishes and planning applications for 40k at The Valley had been turned down.
El Presidente and I had a good discussion on this a couple weeks back. All-in-all I'm against moving, mostly because I just don't see the upside as being all that huge. I think you could expand The Valley by another 5k seats, which would put us in the 32k realm. Qualms with SE rail et al aside, we could do with better transport links, which would certainly help fill the ground.
I would say that with teams like Bournemouth, QPR, Stoke etc. in the Prem, and Leeds, Forest, Villa, etc. in the second tier, there is no guarantee that a 27k or even a 32k or 35k seater stadium will make us Premier League mainstays. The money now is in partnerships and overseas sponsors/investors/TV money. All of this is why I see it as a bit of a moot point.
A new stadium isn't really going to be the thing to get us to the Premier League, and it's not all that likely it'd keep us there (keeping in mind looking five years out is a fool's errand the way things in football are).
The best way for us to get to, and stay in, the top flightis years of good infrastructure work, shrewd investment in youth players, good, consistent scouting, employing some of the up-and-coming best behind the scenes and in key footballing roles such as coaches, and a long, patient movement toward breaking even and an overall fiscally responsible way of running the cluba rich man buying us and investing loads in deficit spending to get us up to the Premier League.
Stoke City
2013-14 Turnover 14th - Wage Bill 16th - Profit £3m
2014-15 Turnover 16th - Wage Bill 16th - Profit £5m
Net 'friendly debt' £33m - reducing. Ground & Training Ground - owned outright - no mortgages.
The big loss in 2012-13 was to pay for the new Cat 1 training ground.
One of the things I genuinely love about CL is that people fact check you.
I still recall that at some point Stoke were operating at a loss, potentially when they first came up, but I will investigate. My memory for football isn't what it used to be.
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A brand spanking new stadium on the peninsula with good commercial links could help take us to another level. Premiership footie in the afternoon followed by a meal in a surrounding restaurant before hitting a concert at the 02. Then staying in the clubs new built in hotel. Marketing dream. What with the ever increasing local population this could work.
Not football as we know it but could actually see this happening!
Would be a dilemma but would back this if Roly did sell up and kept the Valley to lease back to us.2 -
Tiny flaw in the plan is the bit about Premiership football. Replace that with a League 1 relegation scrap against Northampton followed by an evening watching Brittany Spears wobble, wheeze and mime her way through a concert and it becomes a bit less appealing.dajavouslagan said:A brand spanking new stadium on the peninsula with good commercial links could help take us to another level. Premiership footie in the afternoon followed by a meal in a surrounding restaurant before hitting a concert at the 02. Then staying in the clubs new built in hotel. Marketing dream. What with the ever increasing local population this could work.
Not football as we know it but could actually see this happening!
Would be a dilemma but would back this if Roly did sell up and kept the Valley to lease back to us.3 -
I think you'd have to say that Brighton are a fairly special argument there as they'd have accepted anything to get out of the situation they were in.Swisdom said:I've previously said it's not the end of the world to me. It's done wonders for Brighton and the whole Greenwich peninsula is bloody awesome. An incredible backdrop.
That said - there are plans for something like 15,000 new homes there in the next 10 years so it might help get fans through the door too - or just cause absolute traffic chaos.
I support Charlton - wherever that may be.
Maybe use Bolton as the example, let's see how full the "reebok" is in August...2 -
Yes. It's the only way we can move forward.
Katriens sofa idea was bad but I can see the logic of enhancing the match day experience. A new staduim with good transport links, bars and restaurants can only be a good thing and will help us tap into the rapidly growing population of the borough before they jump on the dlr to Stratford0 -
So basically we should leave the Valley because the Jubilee Line is too far away. No thanks.
I love the fact that poor transport links now mean you might have to get a bus to the ground, and the trains are a bit annoying. Plenty of new grounds have been built in the sticks and its just a case a putting a few buses on to get people in, ie MK Dons or Reading.
We already have umpteen buses from North Greenwich and a station next to the ground, so I dont think its an issue.5 -
Once the IKEA store opens on the Peninsula and traffic grinds to a halt in the area, that'll probably put paid to any ideas of having a football ground there.
I don't believe that Varney would have any ideas about moving there, but I wouldn't put it past our present owners to try to move us somewhere else. It's probably part of the plan to alienate all the fans and then move once there aren't any left going to games.0 -
We will need a 40k capacity Stadium for 2030 - for the reunion of shit network related personnel.2
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Nothing beats the Valley but could see this being attractive to an invester!0
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To me The Valley is Charlton.
I'm clinging on by a thread now. Move us from The Valley and that would be it for me.
But then I am a white male over 60 years of age so that is probably good news!2 -
Didn't Simon Jordan or Mark Goldberg do that at Palace?AddicksAddict said:
I can't see anyone being so stupid as to buy the club and not the ground.Missed It said:
This is my greatest fear over any decision Duchatelet makes to sell. The thought of that vampire permanently leeching from Charlton's dismembered body is too awful to contemplate... but I wouldn't put it past him.Mackle said:If Roland sells the club, but keeps the ground, it's very difficult knowing what the best course of action is.
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A lot of the transport issues are down to the simultaneous Thameslink work at London Bridge and Crossrail works at Abbey Wood, but these will be over by 2018, by which time we'll be in the Premier League/League 2CAFCTrev said:So basically we should leave the Valley because the Jubilee Line is too far away. No thanks.
I love the fact that poor transport links now mean you might have to get a bus to the ground, and the trains are a bit annoying. Plenty of new grounds have been built in the sticks and its just a case a putting a few buses on to get people in, ie MK Dons or Reading.
We already have umpteen buses from North Greenwich and a station next to the ground, so I dont think its an issue.
The trains coped perfectly well, even when we had evening games in the PL2 -
Happened with Roland and STVV...AddicksAddict said:
I can't see anyone being so stupid as to buy the club and not the ground.Missed It said:
This is my greatest fear over any decision Duchatelet makes to sell. The thought of that vampire permanently leeching from Charlton's dismembered body is too awful to contemplate... but I wouldn't put it past him.Mackle said:If Roland sells the club, but keeps the ground, it's very difficult knowing what the best course of action is.
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Isnt the answer simple ?....don't go to the Northampton game !mogodon said:
Tiny flaw in the plan is the bit about Premiership football. Replace that with a League 1 relegation scrap against Northampton followed by an evening watching Brittany Spears wobble, wheeze and mime her way through a concert and it becomes a bit less appealing.dajavouslagan said:A brand spanking new stadium on the peninsula with good commercial links could help take us to another level. Premiership footie in the afternoon followed by a meal in a surrounding restaurant before hitting a concert at the 02. Then staying in the clubs new built in hotel. Marketing dream. What with the ever increasing local population this could work.
Not football as we know it but could actually see this happening!
Would be a dilemma but would back this if Roly did sell up and kept the Valley to lease back to us.0 -
Yee bloody Ha - finally, someone who can see the bigger picture !!!!dajavouslagan said:A brand spanking new stadium on the peninsula with good commercial links could help take us to another level. Premiership footie in the afternoon followed by a meal in a surrounding restaurant before hitting a concert at the 02. Then staying in the clubs new built in hotel. Marketing dream. What with the ever increasing local population this could work.
Not football as we know it but could actually see this happening!
Would be a dilemma but would back this if Roly did sell up and kept the Valley to lease back to us.0 -
As far as I am aware the peninsular stadium is still on the Royal Borough of Grenwich Masterplan.
2+2 = 5 but do you think the old Belgian bastard is biding his time with us just to see which way the mop flops with this ?0 -
Completely pointless. Tv money means you don't have to rely on tickets and even in our peak years we very rarely sold out games0
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stupid idea charlton is our home0
