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Should Tony Blair be indicted as a war criminal?
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I'm not particularly clever on this stuff, but this one struck me as a fundamental issue with the man:
"Why did you not do what the UN told you to?"
"Well we asked them to let us invade, and they said no. So we gave them another chance to say yes, but they said no again. So really it's their fault for saying no."
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"Intervening in Iraq made the country far safer than what Syria is now"
What the...?
The whole shitstorm in Syria started after the IS insurgance made the ungoverned Iraq its base and formed the manpower to push onto Syria.
Nice try Tone.2 -
Blair reckons that the Middle East will be stable for the next Generation following his actions!!
We've been saying that for centuries though, the Middle East has been a problem ever since the Crusades so which Generation is he talking about!!0 -
From what I can tell from the brief synopisis of the million word report it seems Blair had complete tunnel vision going to war. Choosing to follow the paths that would lead to war rather than try any peaceful means instead of. Not lying, just letting his unwavering belief in removing sadden by military means guide him.1
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That Campbell bloke is good at PR and spin. I wonder if he's ever considered taking it up as a full time job.Red_in_SE8 said:4 -
Corbyn's speech today was fantastic: https://t.co/Vs2ibwLuwr6
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Ok Saddam's long gone, shocking porkies have been told, lots of people on both sides of the fence have lost lives, and the remaining families are having to live with the nightmare of the consequences, has life in Iraq improved significantly, and was all the deaths kinda justifiable, or has it made the whole situation in Iraq and the Middle East much worse?
Is this going to be one of those things bit like the Hillsborough disaster, that will take another generation for justice to be served, if there is such a thing as retrospective justice.
Imo Blair is a shyster of the highest order, he'd sell his own grannie and get away with it given the chance, he sold the Labour Party and the country down the river.0 -
Got about three paragraphs into corbyns speach and gave up.
The report is a long document that I will read over time and form my own view.
Here is that of the Guardian.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/jul/06/iraq-inquiry-key-points-from-the-chilcot-report
If I were to summarise this summary, I would say that Blair committed to remove Hussain in private agreements with Bush.
There is no absolute proof that evidence was fabricated to allow Blair to make this happen.
He's not going to be indicted even though there could be a decent case against him.
He still seems to believe he did the right thing.
Should he be indicted as a war criminal? Maybe.
Will he be? No.2 -
If this was over something like selling a bent second hand car it would be plausible and a slap on the wrist acceptable
'The garage swore to me they serviced it mate'
He knew precisely what he was doing. He had Dr David Kelly suicided and followed the worst stooge president in history off to an illegal war with no regard for consequence.
Someone I knew was killed in Iraq who shouldn't have been there, and horribly was not sufficiently equipped because of a lack of a proper supply chain.
He is a war criminal2 -
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I was hoping but not expecting the report to clear this up.
Did Tony Blair deliberately prosecute an illegal war in Iraq and deliberately build dubious evidence to allow that to happen?
Illegal war? I think yes.
Deliberately fabricate evidence, not proven.1 -
The collapse of the Ottoman Empire is still being felt to this day.
I know it's cliche but it's fairly true. Iraq was a 100 year old pressure cooker of various ethnic and religious groups, Saddam was the cork. The coalition's destruction of infrastructure and inability to plan acted as a catalyst to further madness.
The Sykes-Picot agreement was signed about 100 years ago, give or take a few months, the failure of these men is still being felt to this day and will be long after.0 -
Signed 100 years ago between them colonial powers. Total cluster f**k.
But any solutions?0 -
Iraq was also a heavily centralised economy under Saddam0
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Blair pulled this countries pants down on so many levels.
Finally the chickens are coming home to roost.0 -
What is the definition of War Criminal?0
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Nah it's fucked. Maybe the break up of Iraq into smaller states? It can't continue in this way for long without force, too much ethno/religious tension between people that feel no loyalty towards an Iraqi state. Arabs, Turks, Kurds, Yazidis, Mandaeans and various small Christian groups all living under one flag that supposedly represents them, it's crazy.Alwaysneil said:Signed 100 years ago between them colonial powers. Total cluster f**k.
But any solutions?0 -
War crimes fall into three groups - or four if you include genocide.EastTerrace said:What is the definition of War Criminal?
Crimes against peace
planning, preparation, initiation or waging of a war of aggression, or a war in violation of international treaties, agreements or assurances
participation in a common plan or conspiracy for the accomplishment of any of the above
War crimes
Violations of the laws or customs of war, including:
Atrocities or offences against persons or property, constituting violations of the laws or customs of war
murder, ill treatment or deportation to slave labour or for any other purpose of the civilian population in occupied territory
murder or ill treatment of prisoners of war or persons on the seas
killing of hostages
torture or inhuman treatment, including biological experiments
plunder of public or private property
wanton destruction of cities, towns or villages
devastation not justified by military necessity
Crimes against humanity
Atrocities and offences committed against any civilian population, before or during the war, including:
murder
extermination
enslavement
deportation
mass systematic rape and sexual enslavement in a time of war
other inhumane acts
persecutions on political, racial or religious grounds in execution of or in connection with any crime within the jurisdiction of the Tribunal, whether or not in violation of the domestic law of the country where perpetrated
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So, Blair was 'guilty' of telling porkies and followed the Americans due to political/economic relationships between USA AND UK? Blair undoubtedly thought he was doing the right thing, as did all war criminals1
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I have no doubt that he acted in a way that he felt was correct, and in line with his own beliefs. His friendship with Bush was simply unacceptable for a statesman though, and demonstrates a real lack of respect for his own electorate.
Saddam was clearly a horrific man, a dictator of 24 years who had overseen and allowed abhorrent actions throughout his time in power. To remove him could've been seen as a noble action, aimed at freeing an oppressed people who lived in fear.
However, the way in which Bush and Blair instigated this war was woefully misguided - and the UN should've been heeded, as should have the experts.
As much as I believe Blair was acting in good faith with regards to the removal of Hussain, I also believe he knowingly presented the public with false information and that can be demonstrated with David Kelly. One of Kelly's allegations was that the inclusion of the "45 minute claim" was influenced by Alastair Campbell; such claims should never have been influenced by the mere PR man.
Other issues are more "practical" I fear, the MoD should clearly be liable to litigation for failing our armed forces with regards to adequate equipment and protections, whilst someone also needs to take the blame for a non-existent exit strategy and post-exit counter-insurgency strategy; two things which have facilitated the scourge we now know as ISIS.
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The man is utterly deluded. He looked tired and pathetic yesterday. His voice was surprisingly higher pitched than I remembered and I despise the 'woe is me' ssympathy that he was clearly trying to garner. Though the worst for me was the unshakable conviction that he had done the 'right thing' despite the enquiry's damning conclusions and would do so again.3
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If there is a case to prosecute him I hope it is successful - he has blood on his hands and shows no remorse. We seem to be led by a bunch of psychopaths incapable of questioning their own failings.
How anyone can listen to the drivel he comes out with is beyond me.4 -
Tony Blair - proving hindsight isn't always 20-20. Really struggling to see how he can possibly say the world is a better place because of the invasion of Iraq? Rise of the Taliban, followed by ISIS can all be directly attributed to British and American destabilisation of the region. Not sure why anybody would listen to the US on foreign policy, they have a frankly terrible terrible record of interfering in international affairs over the last 70 years, weather that be South America, South East Asia or the Middle East, they've made things worse pretty much everywhere they've got involved.3
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Rather like with the dossier, I think Tony Blair is working on the principle that if he keeps saying that the world is a better place enough times that we all might believe it.
He would have done himself a better and more honourable service if he had come out and said that he had totally fucked up because he had committed this country to war months before the dossier, and that he compiled "facts" that supported that decision, without proper regard to whether they were credible.
But Tony cannot and will not do that. He has cemented his place in history for all the wrong reasons.
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Hundreds of thousands dead already and the world will never be the same again.
The fella should be in jail.0 -
As a labour supporter I was not overly excited when Blair won the 1997 election, and the reason I gave at the time was that he was too religious. I haven't got a problem with religion, but I think it clouds judgements and should have no influence in political decisions. That is how wars start. Is Blair a war criminal? - you could make a case for it. I'm sure he passionately believed he was doing the right thing! Does that let him off something so major - I'm not sure it should. There was a rush to war - I never felt under any threat from Saddam Hussain at the time, and nor did anybody with at least half a brain cell.
I recall this letter to the Guardian from Terry Jones at the time that said it all! We all knew it was nonsense.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2003/jan/26/usa.iraq2 -
Saddam was never a threat to us but he was to Israel. Would Blair be prepared to do what he did to protect Israel? Possibly imo.0
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Posting without reading. Don't know about war crimes but I'd indict him just for being a c....1
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100 years ago 20 thousand young men were ordered to their death by fuckwits on the first day of the Somme and 58 thousand injured.
when 1000 men had been killed you would hope that a decision would be made to stop the carnage as the seven days of bombing German trenches hadn't worked.
No way, the head Fuckwit keeps sending young men to their death.
Move on 90 odd years and the worlds biggest ego is told that we don't have to send our forces, just endorse The USA plan to send troops, according to Condoleezza Rice. Tony, I will be with you whatever, decides to send British Troops into a hell hole without the right equipment and with no idea what was going to happen once the rivals factions started to gain control.
Today is 7/7 and Tony Blair made the streets of Britain dangerous with his decision of being America's poodle. Robin Cook the Foreign secretary tried to tell Blair, Charles Kennedy tried to tell Blair. Menzies Campbell tries to tell Blair.
Tony Blair believed he had the Midas touch and was on a holy crusade.
Dick Cheney and Harold Rumsfeld the two powerful Hawks in the US Government at the time of the second gulf war were calling the tune, and Cheney had been the CEO of Haliburton the Oil field service companies who had made inroads in the middle East and had made Millions of dollars through this connection. Cheney first made contact with this company after desert storm in the first gulf war. 90 % of his wealth came through this association.
Cheney And Rumsfeld got Bush to exploit the "friendship" and the rest is history.
Tony Blair is a 1st class fuckwit who has blood on his hands.
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@soapboxsam an excellent post, thank you.0
