Thomas Cook - Gone
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MrOneLung said:
So you think the government should have let the UK banking system collapse ?NapaAddick said:snowinberlin said:
They bail out the Banks though and bribe the DUP with 1bn of taxpayers money to stay in power. The magic money tree suddenly appears when its convenientNapaAddick said:
Government should do nothing. It's a private business. Business failure is part of business. As bad as this loss is, people will still take holidays. Now the remainder of the industry will be in better shape, as all these people will need to go with them, instead. There is nothing un-natural about business failure. What is un-natural is when government spends taxpayer money to bailout private businesses who could not succeed as well as the others in the same industry who are still here.snowinberlin said:The Government should do alot more. It's another case where a big company suffers financially then is at the mercy of the Banks or private equity firms who suck all the value out of it, so they could be making profits but it's all going on extortionate interest payments, these private equity firms come in and charge huge admin fees and interest until they are totally unviable then dump them into administration. It shouldn't be allowed to happen when thousands of jobs are at stake and then less consumer choice in the futureWell many of us were against "them" bailing out the banks too.If we bail out this company, then why not bail out the 20,000+ one or two person businesses that fail every year too? Why is that people always want to bail out the big businesses?Let's reverse that... you are cool with your money and your childrens and grandchildren's money bailing out banks so they could give themselves tens of billions in bonuses, allowing them to do many of the same things that got them into trouble before? For what?Iceland let it's banks go under and after 36 months, they were right back on their feet. Their unemployment rate is 3.5%. They did just fine without crippling the future of their children with debt.So yes... they should have.2 -
1) We are discussing decisions taken by two different governments who are ideologically opposed, of course there was a different outcome, we don't live in a one party state.snowinberlin said:
They bail out the Banks though and bribe the DUP with 1bn of taxpayers money to stay in power. The magic money tree suddenly appears when its convenientNapaAddick said:
Government should do nothing. It's a private business. Business failure is part of business. As bad as this loss is, people will still take holidays. Now the remainder of the industry will be in better shape, as all these people will need to go with them, instead. There is nothing un-natural about business failure. What is un-natural is when government spends taxpayer money to bailout private businesses who could not succeed as well as the others in the same industry who are still here.snowinberlin said:The Government should do alot more. It's another case where a big company suffers financially then is at the mercy of the Banks or private equity firms who suck all the value out of it, so they could be making profits but it's all going on extortionate interest payments, these private equity firms come in and charge huge admin fees and interest until they are totally unviable then dump them into administration. It shouldn't be allowed to happen when thousands of jobs are at stake and then less consumer choice in the future
2) You seem confused, not a penny was given to the DUP, it was invested in the NI economy/infrastructure, whilst still wrong, totally different from what you're discussing.2 -
Pretty sure once our government has sold all remaining shares they will make a nice little profit from the venture, comparing Iceland and The UK is silly, for so, so many reasons.NapaAddick said:MrOneLung said:
So you think the government should have let the UK banking system collapse ?NapaAddick said:snowinberlin said:
They bail out the Banks though and bribe the DUP with 1bn of taxpayers money to stay in power. The magic money tree suddenly appears when its convenientNapaAddick said:
Government should do nothing. It's a private business. Business failure is part of business. As bad as this loss is, people will still take holidays. Now the remainder of the industry will be in better shape, as all these people will need to go with them, instead. There is nothing un-natural about business failure. What is un-natural is when government spends taxpayer money to bailout private businesses who could not succeed as well as the others in the same industry who are still here.snowinberlin said:The Government should do alot more. It's another case where a big company suffers financially then is at the mercy of the Banks or private equity firms who suck all the value out of it, so they could be making profits but it's all going on extortionate interest payments, these private equity firms come in and charge huge admin fees and interest until they are totally unviable then dump them into administration. It shouldn't be allowed to happen when thousands of jobs are at stake and then less consumer choice in the futureWell many of us were against "them" bailing out the banks too.If we bail out this company, then why not bail out the 20,000+ one or two person businesses that fail every year too? Why is that people always want to bail out the big businesses?Let's reverse that... you are cool with your money and your childrens and grandchildren's money bailing out banks so they could give themselves tens of billions in bonuses, allowing them to do many of the same things that got them into trouble before? For what?Iceland let it's banks go under and after 36 months, they were right back on their feet. Their unemployment rate is 3.5%. They did just fine without crippling the future of their children with debt.So yes... they should have.3 -
I knew Thomas Cook very well as a Union Official. I stopped dealing with them around 10 years ago. I spent many hours in their shops, their Head Office in Peterborough and call centre in Falkirk.
As someone who has mainly worked in the Railway industry it was fascinating for me to have an insight to an industry where the power dynamics were completely different.
I always felt that TC tried to keep the traditional High Street travel agency model alive and in terms of the travel trade ( although not compared to the Railway) the staff were reasonably paid. This probably is one of the factors in their demise.
I just feel sad that it is another death kneel in terms of the future of the High Street. I think Tui wull survive but it is a shame that they don't have a proper competitor.
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Is this generally true or just some isolated examples of trying to shift some specific holidays?MuttleyCAFC said:There is sadly a fundamental truth. If you book a holiday through Thomas Cook it costs a lot more than booking a holiday online - You can even book a Thomas Cook Holiday or flight cheaper on Ice Lolly. More and more people were going work that out, not less. And many already had.
Their own package holidays cheaper through ice lolly than their own website? Is that true for TUI as well?0 -
I have seen it at first hand - enquiring about flights only to Cuba in their shop and getting quoted over £1k each and then finding them at more than half the price at home on the same day (The same Thomas Cook flights).0
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See that, is an easy fix. You proceed match to a point. Like I said earlier you (TC) really oversell the extra support and protection and perks you get with Thomas Cook and get as close to the online price as you can, surely as an agent they make their money on upselling add ons and ever decreasing margins so throw a few things in that people seem to love. A free lounge pass to one of the shittier lounges at the airport, a bottle of poverty range champagne on the plane all cheap stuff but enhancements that you wouldn't necessarily get online. The value the city and investors place on firms like Thomas Cook is very much dependent on their regular customer base.MuttleyCAFC said:I have seen it at first hand - enquiring about flights only to Cuba in their shop and getting quoted over £1k each and then finding them at more than half the price at home on the same day (The same Thomas Cook flights).
Maybe I'm being naive but as soon as they had problems a few years ago this was going to happen and I don't believe their senior management did anywhere near enough to prevent it or even plug the gaps0 -
When you are aware a company has issues, you are wary of using them too. With the plane ticket, the only advantage through booking in a Thomas Cook shop that I could see was an extra kilo or two on your baggage weight allowance. I think it was 20kg online and 22kg or 24kg from the shop. I don't think that is worth over £500!1
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Not the case at all for us.MuttleyCAFC said:There is sadly a fundamental truth. If you book a holiday through Thomas Cook it costs a lot more than booking a holiday online - You can even book a Thomas Cook Holiday or flight cheaper on Ice Lolly. More and more people were going work that out, not less. And many already had.
We wanted to go to a particular Greek Island.
Their package holiday was the cheapest option to get there booking a year in advance. We knew the risks. We’ll get our money back. We will still go. But it will definitely be more expensive.0 -
Excuse the length of this Times article .. it's worth a read though ….
The insolvency watchdog should consider stripping Thomas Cook directors of their bonuses following the collapse of Britain’s oldest tour operator, according to the transport secretary.
Grant Shapps said today that multimillion-pound payouts made to bosses over the last few years could be clawed back under company law to help the taxpayer recoup costs of repatriating Thomas Cook passengers.
The taxpayer is likely to face a bill of at least £40 million to fly holidaymakers back to the UK. This comes on top of about £60 million which is expected to come from funds held under the Air Travel Organisers’ Licensing (Atol) scheme — insurance against the collapse of a tour operator.
Addressing MPs today, Mr Shapps confirmed that the government would attempt to recoup the costs from the sale of Thomas Cook’s assets. Money may also come from credit card companies and travel insurers, he said.
He joined those criticising the bonuses paid to directors of the company as it ran into trouble over the last few years.
It emerged yesterday that £43 million was paid to leading figures at the firm over the past decade. Peter Fankhauser, the chief executive, earned £8.4 million although he is since understood to have lost £4.1 million worth of shares that were liquidated when the company collapsed.
Speaking in the Commons, Andy McDonald, the shadow transport secretary, urged Mr Shapps to “make clear to those executives that they should return their multimillion-pound, undeserved and unwarranted bonuses”.
Mr Shapps said Thomas Cook was “in the end a very poorly run business going in the wrong direction at the wrong time” and the actions of directors are already subject to an investigation by the Insolvency Service.
He said it had the powers under the 1986 Insolvency Act to “require in certain circumstances the return of bonuses and I absolutely agree with him that it needs to be looked into”.
Thomas Cook was placed in compulsory liquidation in the early hours of Monday, grounding its fleet of 40 UK-based aircraft and making 9,000 British staff redundant. Some 150,000 British tourists were abroad with Thomas Cook when the company went under while a further 1 million lost future holiday bookings.
The government has faced criticism for failing to act following the collapse of Monarch Airlines two years ago when £50 million was spent by the Civil Aviation Authority to repatriate its customers from overseas. The Thomas Cook project is understood to be twice as large.
A review of airline insolvency rules published in May recommended to the government that bankrupt airlines should be allowed to carry on flying for a short time to repatriate their own passengers — so that the taxpayer need not step in. It would require a change to insolvency laws but the government has so far failed to propose reforms.
It has been compounded by the situation in Germany where Thomas Cook’s sister airline Condor was given a £340 million state loan yesterday to allow it to survive.
Today, video footage emerged of the airline’s jubilant staff applauding executives who secured the deal. It emerged that one of the figures shown was Christoph Debus, chief executive of Thomas Cook’s now grounded UK airline in addition to chief airlines officer across the group. It suggests that he has been given a new role with Condor just days after the collapse of the rest of the Thomas Cook organisation.
Mr McDonald said: “The government has sat back and let the company fold.”
Mr Shapps dismissed the possibility of a bailout for Thomas Cook but insisted reforms would be introduced in coming months to ensure bankrupt airlines can fly on to repatriate passengers.
“They need to look after their customers and we need to be able to be sure that their planes can keep flying in order that we don’t have to set up a shadow airline for a period of time,” he said. “This is where we will focus our efforts in the next couple of weeks.”
He added that the government had a duty to recoup the estimated £40 million it is spending on the Thomas Cook repatriation.
“I am aware of the duty this government has towards the taxpayer and while affected passengers have been told they will not have to pay to be flown back to the UK we have entered into discussions with third parties with a view to recovering some of the costs of this large operation,” he said.
“We will also look to recoup some of the costs from the relevant debit and credit card providers and travel insurers and we will look to recover costs from other travel providers through which passengers may have booked their Thomas Cook holiday.0 - Sponsored links:
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An Even longer article .. Should be entitled 'High Flying Thiefs'
High‑flying Thomas Cook chiefs will enjoy a soft landing
Peter Fankhauser, the chief executive, has been paid £8.4 million since 2014New details have emerged of the gilded lifestyles of Thomas Cook executives who were paid millions of pounds from the company before it went bust.
Peter Fankhauser, the Swiss chief executive, has earned £8.4 million since 2014 and pocketed a salary of up to £725,000. A keen skier and runner, Mr Fankhauser rents a £2 million mansion in Surrey, where he lives with his wife Raffaella Cassani, for £6,000 a month.
While staff hunt for new jobs, Alice Marsden, former company secretary and general counsel, was taken on by the housebuilder
Taylor Wimpey in March.
Ms Marsden, 36, who owns a flat valued at about £840,000 in a grade II* listed building in Holland Park, west London, was educated at Oxford. She left her post two weeks ago having been on maternity leave since March.
She wrote on the business networking website Linkedin: “I couldn’t be more sad and sorry for my colleagues and our customers. The team couldn’t have worked harder.”
Her Facebook page reveals trips to Ascot, a concert in Ibiza and a holiday in Las Vegas. As company secretary, Ms Marsden’s salary does not have to be revealed by Thomas Cook.
Paul Edgecliffe-Johnson, an independent non-executive director, is also chief financial officer at the FTSE 100 group Intercontinental Hotels. He earned £2.4 million last year from the hotel company and £2.2 million the year before. He owns a house with five bedrooms and four bathrooms near Leatherhead, Surrey, worth an estimated £2.3 million. His interests include radio-controlled cars and fencing.
Dawn Airey, a senior independent director, is chairwoman of the National Youth Theatre and chief executive at Getty Images. A Cambridge graduate and former Yahoo! executive, she lives in a £1.7 million house in Chiswick, west London, and earned £480,000 from Thomas Cook over six years.
Bosses at Thomas Cook pocketed a £43 million pay bonanza from the firm in the last decade. Mr Fankhauser and his two previous full-time chief executives earned about £30 million between them in that time. However, it is understood Mr Fankhauser has lost £4.1 million in shares that have been liquidated.
His predecessor Harriet Green, who ran the group from 2012 to 2014 and faced criticism for an £80,000-a-year hotel and travel bill, took home almost £11 million in total pay. In 2015 she received £6.3 million despite working for just two months of the financial year.
She donated a third of a £5.6 million share award to charities picked by the parents of Bobby and Christi Shepherd, who died of carbon monoxide on a 2006 Thomas Cook holiday in Corfu.
Under the leadership of Manny Fontenla-Novoa, the share price fell drastically between 2007 and 2011. The Spanish-British businessman’s pay packages totalling £16.8 million led the company to introduce internal “clawback” measures in 2012 that could see exaggerated bonuses recouped.
Michael Healy, the former chief financial officer, took home a total of £8.3 million between 2012 and 2018 in salary and bonuses. Frank Meysman, the non-executive chairman and a former executive at the US group Sara Lee, earned £2.2 million in salary and benefits between 2012 and 2018.
A wheelie bag for £9.50 . . . souvenirs take off on eBay
Thomas Cook socks, pens and hi-vis vests have been put up for sale on eBay since the company’s collapse (Ben Clatworthy writes).Crew, pilots and even passengers have listed items of memorabilia for sale. One pilot posted a flight crew paperwork envelope, crew baggage name labels and crew bag tags for £10, writing: “All collectable. Sadly I won’t get to use them any more. The envelope has the list of all the delay codes we used on a day-to-day basis.”
Pens with a floating A330 jet on the barrel are listed for £20 and one cabin crew member has already listed their old uniform, selling a gold-trimmed blazer for £20 that could be matched with a Thomas Cook crew wheelie bag for £9.50.
Those who want to add a gold-winged badge to their uniform will have to shell out £49, although that listing does include a crew baggage tag as well. A small branded neck pillow is on sale for a fairly optimistic £33, a crew manual is being sold for £20, and a flight safety demonstration card has been offered for £10.
The Thomas Cook Condor high visibility jacket is £17.80 for those who dream of guiding in planes, though no light batons have yet been put on sale.
Bargain hunters can pick up a handbag-sized mirror for £1, and four pairs of “new and unused” Thomas Cook flight socks are priced at £2.99. Those prepared to splash out a little more can get some luggage handle wraps used by airline cockpit and cabin crew for £14.99.
Other items include a Thomas Cook headset on sale for £5 (plus £2.95 p&p), and even a Thomas Cook coach sign. Arguably even less useful is the 99p Jamaican ginger pudding that one passenger saved from their last meal on a Thomas Cook flight, though should that not be to the buyer’s taste there is also a branded sick bag on sale, described as “condition used”, for £1.70.
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There's an election coming. Schapps is just playing to the gallery.0
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the above serves to show how many 'business people' are just avin a larf at the expense of the hoi polloi .. protected by company law etc. .. this has been going on for decades .. about time a few of these 'incompetents' (or are they just plain thieves?) were jailed for fraud and deception (In many countries, they would be executed or at best serve very long terms in the slammer)1
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I couldn't agree more Lincs. The bonus system can be defended if it relates to clear success but the culture is to screw as much money from the Hoi Polloi - no or small wage rises etc... and even if you are doing well this year, you may be doing badly next year so it is for massive pay offs for failures and unjustified bonuses. And us Hoi Polloi let them get away with it.
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Hoping to get back overnight on our specially commissioned charter in time to get to the valley!!!3
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Good luck mate.Sillybilly said:Hoping to get back overnight on our specially commissioned charter in time to get to the valley!!!2 -
When the plane takes off it will be just as quick as other planes so hope you get on it.1
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There is a professional class of executive, mostly qualified accountants or lawyers who have no business skills and do little apart from play politics to maintain an executive image to keep the CV in order and a ticket for the gravy train. Meire was a minor example of this cadre of executive.
They exist in every large public company frustrating the good work of experienced front line managers the real energy that drives most businesses.0 -
I can relate to that in my company. Many, many experienced and knowledgeable people on the front line doing the deals and driving the operation who are a credit to their profession and we'd be lost without them yet many people in executive roles who seem to be good talkers just stealing a livingDippenhall said:There is a professional class of executive, mostly qualified accountants or lawyers who have no business skills and do little apart from play politics to maintain an executive image to keep the CV in order and a ticket for the gravy train. Meire was a minor example of this cadre of executive.
They exist in every large public company frustrating the good work of experienced front line managers the real energy that drives most businesses.0 -
The more you read about Thomas Cook, the more you wonder how this didn't happen a few years ago. The company by all accounts was an absolute overpriced shambles.2
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I’m back. All in all they have done a a great job. Lots of UK Government and ATOL staff in hi-viz vests at Antalya airport. A last minute flight number change which led my taxi driver to text me to say my flight had been cancelled just before we got to the airport caused a bit of anxst but we were fine. An old plane that had seen better days and whose seats were not designed for 4.5 hour flights but we are back safe and sound with relatively little fuss. Credit where it’s due. This has clearly been in planning for weeks. Some kip, a proper bacon sarnie then off to the Valley. COYR17
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The plane may be just as quick but we are being flown to Manchester and then coach back to GatwickMuttleyCAFC said:When the plane takes off it will be just as quick as other planes so hope you get on it.0 -
Not sure how long it had been planned for as I am elsewhere now. But the plans for the operation for the collapse of Monach (that I worked on) had been done in advance as the risk was known. This operation is about twice as big numbers wise and more countries, but they would have been able to use andlearn from the Monarch operationSillybilly said:I’m back. All in all they have done a a great job. Lots of UK Government and ATOL staff in hi-viz vests at Antalya airport. A last minute flight number change which led my taxi driver to text me to say my flight had been cancelled just before we got to the airport caused a bit of anxst but we were fine. An old plane that had seen better days and whose seats were not designed for 4.5 hour flights but we are back safe and sound with relatively little fuss. Credit where it’s due. This has clearly been in planning for weeks. Some kip, a proper bacon sarnie then off to the Valley. COYR1 -
That’s rotten luck mate. Speaking to some guys on a flight to Glasgow which was being taken to Birmingham then bus. Hope you get back with the minimum of fuss under the circs.Starinnaddick said:
The plane may be just as quick but we are being flown to Manchester and then coach back to GatwickMuttleyCAFC said:When the plane takes off it will be just as quick as other planes so hope you get on it.0 -
Thomas Cook's airline business was profitable. It was the tour operator business that was losing money and brought them down.0
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On paper maybe, but in reality they were completely interdependent. One couldn’t last without the other.Off_it said:Thomas Cook's airline business was profitable. It was the tour operator business that was losing money and brought them down.0 -
All 555 Thomas Cook shops are to be bought by rival Hays Travel in a move that could save up to 2,500 jobs.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-49985369
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Good news. Wonder how they can make them profitable, if the shops were where money was lost? Maybe some will be shed along the way0
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Brave move, they'll renegotiate rents for sure to bring costs down but will that be enough, only time will tell and hope they have an overall plan. Their current business looks ok if a little marginal, £379m of sales but only £10m of profit, not a great profit margin.2
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Have those at the top handed back any of the millions they handed themselves yet, including just before the collapse?0
