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Grenfell Tower Enquiry

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  • Huskaris
    Huskaris Posts: 9,849
    Baldybonce said:

    This door is at a site i work at. It has a key pad to open. Surely this is not legal???
    I should add it needs a 3 number code to open.

    So if I didn't know the code, I wouldn't be able to get out? ie there is no override or anything?

    That's terrible...
  • Addickted
    Addickted Posts: 19,456
    Baldybonce said:

    This door is at a site i work at. It has a key pad to open. Surely this is not legal???
    I should add it needs a 3 number code to open.

    It will have a failsafe on it in case of a power cut or the fire alarm going off.
  • Baldybonce
    Baldybonce Posts: 9,647
    Addickted said:

    Baldybonce said:

    This door is at a site i work at. It has a key pad to open. Surely this is not legal???
    I should add it needs a 3 number code to open.

    It will have a failsafe on it in case of a power cut or the fire alarm going off.
    I will ask tomorrow.
  • guinnessaddick
    guinnessaddick Posts: 28,628
    Baldybonce said:

    This door is at a site i work at. It has a key pad to open. Surely this is not legal???
    I should add it needs a 3 number code to open.

    Isn't the green pole, part of a panic bar?
  • Addickted
    Addickted Posts: 19,456
    No.

    But just noticed the ADT sign on the door - that will indicate the locking mechanism has an automatic failsafe.
  • Baldybonce
    Baldybonce Posts: 9,647
    Addickted said:

    No.

    But just noticed the ADT sign on the door - that will indicate the locking mechanism has an automatic failsafe.

    Thanks. Some of the staff have expressed concern as visiting contractors at the sloppy attitude to H&S.
  • Addickted
    Addickted Posts: 19,456
    H&S is everybody's responsibility.

    If you have concerns, raise them. I don't think anyone will mind and if it either eases your concerns or if there is an issue, something is done about it, then so much the better.
  • Baldybonce
    Baldybonce Posts: 9,647
    Addickted said:

    No.

    But just noticed the ADT sign on the door - that will indicate the locking mechanism has an automatic failsafe.

    In fact they don't and nobody knows why the ADT sign is there.
    The landlord / Client is looking into alternatives.
  • Addickted
    Addickted Posts: 19,456
    Wow.

    That needs to be resolved today. Fundamental flaw in their procedures if that cannot be opened in an emergency - even if you know the code.
  • MuttleyCAFC
    MuttleyCAFC Posts: 47,728
    worrying indeed.
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  • carly burn
    carly burn Posts: 19,459
    First conclusions of enquiry about to be released.
    Damning report on the LFB reported.
  • Redvalleyeast
    Redvalleyeast Posts: 4,689
    As expected. Lets heap lots of blame on those that were there because the building was a death trap and reacted in a way that no fire service could have expected😡
  • guinnessaddick
    guinnessaddick Posts: 28,628
  • iainment
    iainment Posts: 8,039
    I agree the Fire Service has been badly effected by cuts and have huge respect for firefighters but that doesn't give a free pass if operational policies and decisions are wrong and lead to avoidable tragedies.
  • hoof_it_up_to_benty
    hoof_it_up_to_benty Posts: 22,447
    I have been appalled by the attitude of those running the London Fire Brigade - they seem very reluctant to take responsibility or admit failings.

    Dany Cotton has shown appalling insensitivity in some of her comments and seems too arrogant to learn lessons. I'm sure she will retire on a nice pension. Rank and file firefighters have been let down by shoddy management as were those who lived in Grenfell.
  • LenGlover
    LenGlover Posts: 31,651
    The London Fire Brigade are easy, convenient scapegoats being on the scene at the sharp end of the tragedy.

    My late father finished his career as a very senior officer in the London Fire Brigade and repeatedly tried to point out the dangers and hazards associated with high buildings even before the Ronan Point disaster in the sixties. However he was poo pooed by GLC (as it was then) politicians, both blue and red and planners alike. I am sure his successors will have done likewise even though senior officers have become more 'managerial' and not worked their way through the ranks as they used to. 

    Politicians, being the lying snivelling reptiles that they are and planners too  would deny it but high rise buildings are and were a relatively cheap housing option and they deemed the risks they were advised of to be less important than the cost savings. 

    But yes blame the Fire Brigade for general political incompetence over many years.

     


  • hoof_it_up_to_benty
    hoof_it_up_to_benty Posts: 22,447
    blackpool72 said:
    Redvalleyeast said:
    As expected. Lets heap lots of blame on those that were there because the building was a death trap and reacted in a way that no fire service could have expected😡
    I spent 30 years in the London fire brigade and attended more high rise fires than I can count. 

    When you work as a firefighter or policemen or  whatever you have to follow precidures. 

    Had the cladding that surrounded the building then the fire would have been contained to the flat where the fire started. 

    Absolutely not one single person in the fire brigade who attended that night would have known that the cladding that surrounded the building was illegal. 
    Blame the cost cutting people who gave permission for that cladding to be used. 
    Do not blame the fire brigade. 
    The fire brigade failed the residents that evening with an adherence to a 'stay put' policy that made no sense given how the fire developed.

    People died uneccessarily due to the failings of the LFB management yet some seem more concerned with the reputation of those in charge rather than those who died. 

    As usual nobody wants to own up to their failings. At least Dany Cotton will retire on a nice pension.
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  • NorthheathAddick
    NorthheathAddick Posts: 4,018
    Got sent this....

    The local MP knows what is about to happen

    GRENFELL INQUIRY INTERIM REPORT - what we fear
    Emma Dent Coad MP for Kensington
    26.10.19
    Press release for immediate publication

    As we head towards the date of publication for the Interim Report of the Grenfell Tower Fire Public Inquiry, on Wednesday 30 October - a moment of reflection.
    I remember in October 2012, when after years of lobbying by residents in in cold, damp flats with dodgy lifts and heating and hot water system constantly breaking down, the Council and TMO announced a major refurb of Grenfell Tower. I was leaving KCTMO Board after four years, and this overdue investment was welcomed by residents at the time.
    Between then and 14 June 2017 were five years of meetings, negotiations, consultations, design decisions, planning decisions, contracting, commissioning, estimating, re-estimating, materials decisions – ‘value engineering’ – and the work itself.
    In 2015 a group of residents had been concerned about failures and delays in the process of the works, the noise and inconvenience, concerns about fire breaks, the position of boilers in hallways, exposed gas pipes, the loss of emergency road access, the loss of green space at Lancaster Green to build the school close to the Tower, and fears that the building itself may be dangerous post-refurb.
    Rather than take residents’ concerns seriously, in November 2016 the Council sent a ‘cease and desist’ letter to the complainants, stating that they were frightening residents.
    Six months later a fridge now deemed so dangerous it has been withdrawn from sale burst into flames, and fire services were called. Unknown to them the fire had burnt through a UPVC window frame and flames had begun to tear up the building fuelled by a devastating combination of flammable insulation and flammable cladding. Then -
    The stair lighting failed.
    The smoke vents failed.
    The fire doors failed.
    The fire breaks between floors failed.
    Badly fitting UPVC windows blazed and emitted deadly gases.
    The insulation and cladding failed, due to their combustibility and to poorly fitted breaks and gaps which acted like a chimney.
    The gas supply could not be turned off for 18 hours. 
    And the ‘value engineered’ insulation (now banned) and cladding combination described as ‘solid petrol’ raged for hours.
    The devasting fire that had been predicted by residents turned a concrete frame building with fire safe compartmentation, where ‘Stay Put’ policy had worked for 40 years, into a 24 storey bonfire.
    Into this nightmare, firefighters had to work to save lives with equipment inadequate for a combination of disastrous errors that should never have been allowed. They went in untrained for a disaster that should never have happened. 
    And here lies the problem with this back-to-front Inquiry. 
    Despite the preceding 60 months of appalling decision-making and dereliction of duty by those in power and authority, we fear the Inquiry will focus on the efforts of those sent to save lives into the hell created by others.
    This process is unfair, inequitable and seems destined to blame the responders in place of those responsible. 
    As we wait with trepidation, anxiety and sleepless nights for the Interim Report and recommendations, it is sickening to contemplate what our brave and selfless firefighters may be accused of. 
    An Inquiry is not a criminal prosecution. Blaming responders rather than those responsible goes completely against the spirit and purpose of a Public Inquiry. 
    I will stand by all victims of this avoidable atrocity, those we have lost and those left behind, until justice is served for them all.

    Ends
    Contact emma.dentcoad.mp@parliament.uk
  • thenewbie
    thenewbie Posts: 11,001
    hoof_it_up_to_benty said:
    blackpool72 said:
    Redvalleyeast said:
    As expected. Lets heap lots of blame on those that were there because the building was a death trap and reacted in a way that no fire service could have expected😡
    I spent 30 years in the London fire brigade and attended more high rise fires than I can count. 

    When you work as a firefighter or policemen or  whatever you have to follow precidures. 

    Had the cladding that surrounded the building then the fire would have been contained to the flat where the fire started. 

    Absolutely not one single person in the fire brigade who attended that night would have known that the cladding that surrounded the building was illegal. 
    Blame the cost cutting people who gave permission for that cladding to be used. 
    Do not blame the fire brigade. 
    The fire brigade failed the residents that evening with an adherence to a 'stay put' policy that made no sense given how the fire developed.

    People died uneccessarily due to the failings of the LFB management yet some seem more concerned with the reputation of those in charge rather than those who died. 

    As usual nobody wants to own up to their failings. At least Dany Cotton will retire on a nice pension.
    The LFB gave advice based on what they believed to be the case, instead of there being a laundry list of cock ups that at the time they couldn't possibly have known.
  • Covered End
    Covered End Posts: 52,006
    hoof_it_up_to_benty said:
    blackpool72 said:
    Redvalleyeast said:
    As expected. Lets heap lots of blame on those that were there because the building was a death trap and reacted in a way that no fire service could have expected😡
    I spent 30 years in the London fire brigade and attended more high rise fires than I can count. 

    When you work as a firefighter or policemen or  whatever you have to follow precidures. 

    Had the cladding that surrounded the building then the fire would have been contained to the flat where the fire started. 

    Absolutely not one single person in the fire brigade who attended that night would have known that the cladding that surrounded the building was illegal. 
    Blame the cost cutting people who gave permission for that cladding to be used. 
    Do not blame the fire brigade. 
    The fire brigade failed the residents that evening with an adherence to a 'stay put' policy that made no sense given how the fire developed.

    People died uneccessarily due to the failings of the LFB management yet some seem more concerned with the reputation of those in charge rather than those who died. 

    As usual nobody wants to own up to their failings. At least Dany Cotton will retire on a nice pension.
    So you think the LFB should know in advance of every failing of every building ?
    What utter nonsense.
  • Addickted
    Addickted Posts: 19,456
    thenewbie said:
    hoof_it_up_to_benty said:
    blackpool72 said:
    Redvalleyeast said:
    As expected. Lets heap lots of blame on those that were there because the building was a death trap and reacted in a way that no fire service could have expected😡
    I spent 30 years in the London fire brigade and attended more high rise fires than I can count. 

    When you work as a firefighter or policemen or  whatever you have to follow precidures. 

    Had the cladding that surrounded the building then the fire would have been contained to the flat where the fire started. 

    Absolutely not one single person in the fire brigade who attended that night would have known that the cladding that surrounded the building was illegal. 
    Blame the cost cutting people who gave permission for that cladding to be used. 
    Do not blame the fire brigade. 
    The fire brigade failed the residents that evening with an adherence to a 'stay put' policy that made no sense given how the fire developed.

    People died uneccessarily due to the failings of the LFB management yet some seem more concerned with the reputation of those in charge rather than those who died. 

    As usual nobody wants to own up to their failings. At least Dany Cotton will retire on a nice pension.
    The LFB gave advice based on what they believed to be the case, instead of there being a laundry list of cock ups that at the time they couldn't possibly have known.
    Stay put works.

    When a fire has taken hold of the whole of the building and the firefighters are struggling to contain the fire on several floors, it's time to get the people out and fecking quickly.

    From watching the film of the fire spread it was obvious that within 20 minutes of the LFB arriving on the scene a stay put policy was not suitable and total evacuation was needed.


    Rydons, who carried out the refurb, along with their main subbies, suppliers, site agents and especially the building control officers who passed the sub standard work should all be put in the dock.
  • i_b_b_o_r_g
    i_b_b_o_r_g Posts: 18,948
    Fair play to Her -  
  • DRAddick
    DRAddick Posts: 3,588
    i_b_b_o_r_g said:
    Fair play to Her -  
    Err no, not fair play to her. She's done the old "apologies for any upset caused" crap instead of actually apologising and admitting she was wrong. 
  • Covered End
    Covered End Posts: 52,006
    DRAddick said:
    i_b_b_o_r_g said:
    Fair play to Her -  
    Err no, not fair play to her. She's done the old "apologies for any upset caused" crap instead of actually apologising and admitting she was wrong. 
    In fairness I think "I'm reassured race played no part in their response", is an admission that she was wrong.

    I think "apologies for any upset caused" is an apology.
  • i_b_b_o_r_g
    i_b_b_o_r_g Posts: 18,948
    DRAddick said:
    i_b_b_o_r_g said:
    Fair play to Her -  
    Err no, not fair play to her. She's done the old "apologies for any upset caused" crap instead of actually apologising and admitting she was wrong. 
    There's not a lot anyone could say to make her look anymore ill informed than what she said regarding the LFB the other day.

    But, my point is that she's said she was wrong and she has made herself right by saying "race played no part" in the response, for that, fair play imo
  • ValleyGary
    ValleyGary Posts: 37,979
    She can poke it 
  • alan dugdale
    alan dugdale Posts: 3,077
    blackpool72 said:
    Redvalleyeast said:
    As expected. Lets heap lots of blame on those that were there because the building was a death trap and reacted in a way that no fire service could have expected😡
    I spent 30 years in the London fire brigade and attended more high rise fires than I can count. 

    When you work as a firefighter or policemen or  whatever you have to follow precidures. 

    Had the cladding that surrounded the building then the fire would have been contained to the flat where the fire started. 

    Absolutely not one single person in the fire brigade who attended that night would have known that the cladding that surrounded the building was illegal. 
    Blame the cost cutting people who gave permission for that cladding to be used. 
    Do not blame the fire brigade. 
    100% this.

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