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Grenfell Tower Enquiry
Comments
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Maybe she shouldn't mouth off about something she knows nothing about.
The black community will remember her first outburst, not her rowing back from her disgusting comments.12 -
True but her remarks were beyond offensive, that professional people who risk their lives to save others would deliberately let people die is horrible. Her apology will engender far less coverage than her initial thoughts.Covered End said:
In fairness I think "I'm reassured race played no part in their response", is an admission that she was wrong.DRAddick said:
Err no, not fair play to her. She's done the old "apologies for any upset caused" crap instead of actually apologising and admitting she was wrong.i_b_b_o_r_g said:Fair play to Her -
I think "apologies for any upset caused" is an apology.
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I agree 100%.cfgs said:
True but her remarks were beyond offensive, that professional people who risk their lives to save others would deliberately let people die is horrible. Her apology will engender far less coverage than her initial thoughts.Covered End said:
In fairness I think "I'm reassured race played no part in their response", is an admission that she was wrong.DRAddick said:
Err no, not fair play to her. She's done the old "apologies for any upset caused" crap instead of actually apologising and admitting she was wrong.i_b_b_o_r_g said:Fair play to Her -
I think "apologies for any upset caused" is an apology.0 -
You’re taking absolute bollocks. The stay put policy was there for a reason, the cladding issue had fuck all to do with the LFB.hoof_it_up_to_benty said:
The fire brigade failed the residents that evening with an adherence to a 'stay put' policy that made no sense given how the fire developed.blackpool72 said:
I spent 30 years in the London fire brigade and attended more high rise fires than I can count.Redvalleyeast said:As expected. Lets heap lots of blame on those that were there because the building was a death trap and reacted in a way that no fire service could have expected😡
When you work as a firefighter or policemen or whatever you have to follow precidures.
Had the cladding that surrounded the building then the fire would have been contained to the flat where the fire started.
Absolutely not one single person in the fire brigade who attended that night would have known that the cladding that surrounded the building was illegal.
Blame the cost cutting people who gave permission for that cladding to be used.
Do not blame the fire brigade.
People died uneccessarily due to the failings of the LFB management yet some seem more concerned with the reputation of those in charge rather than those who died.
As usual nobody wants to own up to their failings. At least Dany Cotton will retire on a nice pension.7 -
Hadn’t read the Doreen Lawrence accusation before.
That is a disgraceful judgement.Made me feel sick.
shame on her.5 -
Before you all jump on the Doreen Lawrence bandwagon perhaps have a look at the context in which she first made the remarks you all think were so offensive. (Apologies to those who are already aware and do not need any additional context to form a strong opinion).
You can watch first hand here, if you haven't seen already-
https://www.channel4.com/news/doreen-lawrence-says-grenfell-tragedy-was-linked-to-racism
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Fully aware of the context thank you. If you feel that's enough for her to use her public profile to jump on the racism bandwagon without having any actual knowledge or experience of such events, and that then later offering a pathetic non apology is enough, then fine that's your choice. Mass criticism doesn't always need to be a bandwagon. Often it's justified.swords_alive said:Before you all jump on the Doreen Lawrence bandwagon perhaps have a look at the context in which she first made the remarks you all think were so offensive. (Apologies to those who are already aware and do not need any additional context to form a strong opinion).
You can watch first hand here, if you haven't seen already-
https://www.channel4.com/news/doreen-lawrence-says-grenfell-tragedy-was-linked-to-racism2 -
How can the LFB be blamed over the council who repeatedly ignored warnings from residents over the very thing that then happened? Who is running this 'inquiry'?1
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@hoof_it_up_to_benty I think, who clearly has something against LFB!Chunes said:How can the LFB be blamed over the council who repeatedly ignored warnings from residents over the very thing that then happened? Who is running this 'inquiry'?2 -
Insane.Stu_of_Kunming said:
@hoof_it_up_to_benty I think, who clearly has something against LFB!Chunes said:How can the LFB be blamed over the council who repeatedly ignored warnings from residents over the very thing that then happened? Who is running this 'inquiry'?
One of the residents had even set up a website that went into extreme detail about just how dangerous the cladding was, just how deadly the lack of fire safety in the building was, and how the council and building management were completely ignoring them!
Oh no let's blame LFB. Piss off.7 - Sponsored links:
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There is no context for what she said none what so ever, I watched the Channel 4 interview at the time and had never felt so disgusted about the comments of one person since the days her sons murderers were caught mouthing off on TV,swords_alive said:Before you all jump on the Doreen Lawrence bandwagon perhaps have a look at the context in which she first made the remarks you all think were so offensive. (Apologies to those who are already aware and do not need any additional context to form a strong opinion).
You can watch first hand here, if you haven't seen already-
https://www.channel4.com/news/doreen-lawrence-says-grenfell-tragedy-was-linked-to-racism
Racism did play apart in her comments and do in many things she has said in the past and she gets a free pass because she is Stephen Lawrences Mum.
I knew Stephen and his brother as did others on here, Stephen at 15 tried in an attempt to mug me by Harry perry Cycles in Woolwich and came a croper to my right hook doesnt mean i look at all black people as muggers and didnt mean that Stephen was still one when he was murdered.
how she came to the conclusion that had Grenfell been full of white people they would have been saved is a comment based purely on a false belief that all black or non white people are treated differently in the UK by all people, and has racism at its core, she is some would say understandably driven in rooting out racism at every turn ( cant say she is wrong in doing so) but it has blighted her judgement, is darkened her out look on all things that happen to the balck community and she is wrong.
Grenfell was a multi failing accident waiting to happen, that could have been stopped on amy occasions before the fire, but once it took hold people were going to die because the fabric of that building was so far compromised that nothing anyone could do would have changed it,
YES the Fire brigade policy of staying put in this instance failed but in many others it has proven to be correct.
the people that tendered subbed out and those who installed the cladding should all be facing life in prison for thir failures.
So should those responsible in the company that made the faulty appliance.
The firebrigade and its fighters should all be treated as heros and counsel;led through their own miss placed guilt and assisted in recovery so that no more lives are lost due to this tragedy
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An easy way to keep those who should really carry the blame out of prison, it's sad to see so many falling for it.Chunes said:
Insane.Stu_of_Kunming said:
@hoof_it_up_to_benty I think, who clearly has something against LFB!Chunes said:How can the LFB be blamed over the council who repeatedly ignored warnings from residents over the very thing that then happened? Who is running this 'inquiry'?
One of the residents had even set up a website that went into extreme detail about just how dangerous the cladding was, just how deadly the lack of fire safety in the building was, and how the council and building management were completely ignoring them!
Oh no let's blame LFB. Piss off.
The real culprits are going to get away with it.3 -
I work in one of the most sophisticated facilities in the world due to the nature of the work that's carried on within it, we have a simple rule. When the fire system activates you get out as there is a threat to life... However we have systems that will isolate the fire to the area its within or certernly contain it for a period.
But our own firefighters go in when everybody else is running the over way. I appreciate there has to be an inquiry so this never happens again and lessons learned, we should hold our fire service with the esteem they deserve. They see things that will haunt them forever.3 -
I think the issue with the Fire Brigade is their failure to learn from previous fires of this nature. And there were things to be learned.
The Lakanal House fire should have alerted them to the issue they faced with Grenfall. You can't blame the brave firemen in any way, but there must be people in the organisation who review fires and take learning from them. The issue is, the advice given cost lives. And we do need to think of the horror of this. People ultimately in their homes waiting to die a horrible death. Ringing their loved ones and saying their goodbyes.
But Lakanal lessons should have learned from more than the fire brigade. There was a report warning of this sitting on minister's desks. Throwing all the blame at the Fire Brigade would be missing the point IMO though. The coroner made a formal recommendation to Ministers to act to get sprinklers retrofitted into tower blocks and to overhaul building regulations. But by the time of the Grenfell Tower fire, only 1 per cent of council blocks had sprinklers fitted and a promised review of building regulations hadn’t even started despite the recommendations being made years earlier.1 -
163 high rise tower blocks still have ACM cladding of the type that covered Grenfell.
Less than 30 high rise blocks have had sprinkler or mist systems retro fitted and it will take over 40 years to retrofit every high rise block with the current infrastructure.
Building Regulations still haven't been updated and there is still no legal requirement to retrofit sprinklers.
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We have been seeing reports of this since the disaster. The reaction has been disgraceful.0
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My old man was a fireman for over 25 years and I've no doubt that the conditions and nature of the job is one of the reasons he's in such poor health now.
So, its a relief that the vast majority of the British public are still in full support of the LFB, including many of the victims families.
We all know who the real people are to blame here and no finger pointing shite inquiry will change that.19 -
Not mouthing off about what you know nothing about would close the internet.Huskaris said:Maybe she shouldn't mouth off about something she knows nothing about.
The black community will remember her first outburst, not her rowing back from her disgusting comments.
To be fair she reconsidered and changed her mind when she knew more. Which hopefully is what all strive for.0 -
Lets be honest, the failings of the fire brigade put the lives of fireman at greater risk. You have to look at the airline industry. When there is an accident or even nearly an accident, every lesson is learned from it. We have to look at why that approach doesn't happen elsewhere when it comes to people's safety. We have to remember that he residents of Grenfall were warning about the issues and being ignored. They deserve those that are to blame to be outed. It has already taken far to long to get where we are. But we should not merge those to blame for one aspect of the failings within the LFB. The brave men and women firer fighters will always deserve our support for their professionalism and courage. We must also acknowledge the the courage of the firermen on the night and how their lives have been affected.1
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As a serving central London firefighter of 27 years its reassuring to read the comments of support not just on here but on social media in general. I was part of a crew that was the 1st to reach the 11th floor of Lakanal house and it was a fire that neither myself or my colleagues will forget and it was also a fire that reacted and spread in a way i'd never seen before.
I also attended Grenfell tower as part of relief crews in the days after the fire and have close friends who were amongst the crews on the 1st fire engines on scene. Some of them are really struggling with dealing with what went on that night,whether they could've done more,the sights they saw and the choices they had to make,you can only imagine. Having been inside that building,seen the carnage at 1st hand,its an absolute miracle that more souls werent lost,including my friends and collegues.
Much has been made of the stay put policy,its worked in hundreds of cases and saved countless lives over the years. My honest opinion and im not alone in this,is that if the residents that night had been told to evacuate earlier,more would have died,the stairwell wasnt wide enough,there was smoke logging,firefighters going up and down carrying people and equipment and panic would have understandably set in causing even more confusion and alarm.
The building was a touchpaper waiting to be lit due to the acm and ill fitting windows/fire doors and sadly that night it had a source of ignition. To put any blame on those that night that were only there because the building failed so terribly and reacted in such a way is beyond me.
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This was a Channel 4 interview of a prominent anti racist campaigner not a few stupid words typed by a drunk keyboard warrior, mouthing off.iainment said:
Not mouthing off about what you know nothing about would close the internet.Huskaris said:Maybe she shouldn't mouth off about something she knows nothing about.
The black community will remember her first outburst, not her rowing back from her disgusting comments.
To be fair she reconsidered and changed her mind when she knew more. Which hopefully is what all strive for.0 -
Appalling attempt to scapegoat firefighters who risked their lives and had no control over what orders to obey.
Yes, with the benefit of hindsight, had the decision to rescind the tried and tested "stay put" approach been made an hour earlier lives would have been saved. Not least the assumption that fire blocks were in place, can you imagine the chaos in a high rise if scores of firefighters are trying to go up the stairs to fight the fire with scores of people, invalids and children going in the opposite direction in panic mode. No one knows, but some might have been saved and others perished by crushing had an early order been made for people to evacuate.
I have not read the actual report but I would not be surprised if the words of Dany Cotton that she would have not reacted any differently today, are completely out of context. If she had the same information and same insights as she had on the night she is probably meaning she would have made the same decisions. I can't believe she was saying she has not learned anything from Grenfell.
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MuttleyCAFC said:I think the issue with the Fire Brigade is their failure to learn from previous fires of this nature. And there were things to be learned.
The Lakanal House fire should have alerted them to the issue they faced with Grenfall. You can't blame the brave firemen in any way, but there must be people in the organisation who review fires and take learning from them. The issue is, the advice given cost lives. And we do need to think of the horror of this. People ultimately in their homes waiting to die a horrible death. Ringing their loved ones and saying their goodbyes.
But Lakanal lessons should have learned from more than the fire brigade. There was a report warning of this sitting on minister's desks. Throwing all the blame at the Fire Brigade would be missing the point IMO though. The coroner made a formal recommendation to Ministers to act to get sprinklers retrofitted into tower blocks and to overhaul building regulations. But by the time of the Grenfell Tower fire, only 1 per cent of council blocks had sprinklers fitted and a promised review of building regulations hadn’t even started despite the recommendations being made years earlier.My late father, as a fire prevention officer, repeatedly spoke to politicians and planners in the sixties, seventies and early eighties about how essential it was to fit sprinklers in high rise buildings as part of the construction process. They cost money though so the politicians and planners deemed the risk of not having them as acceptable.
That is the bottom line. The LFB are easy scapegoats because people died while they were there. The fact that much of the equipment at their disposal was about as effective in the unforeseen circumstances as my 4 year old grandson's beach bucket would be in mitigating the effects of a tsunami can be conveniently ignored.
Don't blame the London Fire Brigade for the incompetent cretins who have done nothing but polish chairs for 50 plus years in their ivory towers.
They are the ones who should be pursued. It wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if Sir Martin Moore- Dick Bick wasn't 'encouraged' to reach the conclusion he did.
Bloody quoting went wrong! Sorry.
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I was a bit reluctant to post this as I'm aware it will probably result in accusations I'm trying to score points out of the dreadful events of that night. But it's a (sad) fact that it's indicative of the political approach of some, who appear to know the cost of everything and the value of nothing, including public safety in this case. As with the cost cutting in the design and materials used in the cladding. And it's important that people can see this approach for themselves.
Would those resources that were no longer available have made a material difference on the night? I don't know and I don't think I've seen it reported either in all honesty. Maybe those with much better and first hand knowledge have a view. But I do know I've never heard anyone in a similar situation complain they had too many resources available.
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Both Red and Blue politicians have blood on their hands.Bournemouth Addick said:I was a bit reluctant to post this as I'm aware it will probably result in accusations I'm trying to score points out of the dreadful events of that night. But it's a (sad) fact that it's indicative of the political approach of some, who appear to know the cost of everything and the value of nothing, including public safety in this case. As with the cost cutting in the design and materials used in the cladding. And it's important that people can see this approach for themselves.
Would those resources that were no longer available have made a material difference on the night? I don't know and I don't think I've seen it reported either in all honesty. Maybe those with much better and first hand knowledge have a view. But I do know I've never heard anyone in a similar situation complain they had too many resources available.
Grenfell Tower was built in 1974. 'Nuff said.3 -
Not really. The major safety issues particularly the cladding were all the result of later refurbishment, so the original design probably played little part. The two major flaws I would highlight are the dangerous nature of the cladding material, and the council not only ignoring residents safety worries, but trying to silence them ffs. I'd like to see heavy prison sentances for those responsible on both fronts, but judging by the initial finger wagging at the LFB, I don't see that happening.LenGlover said:i
Both Red and Blue politicians have blood on their hands.Bournemouth Addick said:I was a bit reluctant to post this as I'm aware it will probably result in accusations I'm trying to score points out of the dreadful events of that night. But it's a (sad) fact that it's indicative of the political approach of some, who appear to know the cost of everything and the value of nothing, including public safety in this case. As with the cost cutting in the design and materials used in the cladding. And it's important that people can see this approach for themselves.
Would those resources that were no longer available have made a material difference on the night? I don't know and I don't think I've seen it reported either in all honesty. Maybe those with much better and first hand knowledge have a view. But I do know I've never heard anyone in a similar situation complain they had too many resources available.
Grenfell Tower was built in 1974. 'Nuff said.
As for the firefighters, I accept any lessons we can learn would be valuable. But the 'stay put' advice seems to have failed due to the dangerous building flaws. Unless someone can come up with evidence that the fire services were warned how badly the building was prepared for a fire, I don't see how they could do other than what they did. I doubt the council were warning emergency services they had begun to authorise unsafe cladding in the area that might be problematic in the event of an emergency.
I don't really want to politicise this, though the Telegraph has already begun to, no doubt with half an eye on Boris's cuts of the fire brigade apparatus when he was mayor, and the upcoming GE. But there is a general rule here, that you cannot cut corners on safety. It will be good to see those who have done so pay with hard time, but as I said before, this enquiry has started very badly regarding that.11 -
After the refit works were completed, KCHT would have had to carry out a Fire Risk Assessment to comply with the Regulatory Reform (Fire Safety) Order 2005. This would have been carried out by a qualified risk assessor and validated by a senior assessor.
Most likely, because all aspects of the retrofit works to the building had been signed off by a Building Control official, KCHT would have only carried out a Type 1 Risk Assessment to the common parts. This is a visual and non destructive risk assessment and is more concerned with the operation and testing of fire alarm and emergency lighting, the operation of all self closure fire doors, suitable compartmentation and no obstructions throughout a sterile primary means of escape route. It is only concerned with the common parts and flat doors.
If a Type 2 or Type 4 Risk Assessment had been carried out on the block, which would include investigation of the cladding and fire breaks through destructive means, then the shortcomings of the retrofit would have been obvious.
With regard to the reduction in numbers of the LFB, this is the same throughout the Country and is as a result of a significant reduction in not only the number of fires but also the number of fire related injuries and deaths. Fewer fires mean fewer firemen is the not unjustified conclusion.
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Sprinklers, or rather the lack of them in the case of Grenfell Tower, could have been fitted at the time of construction back in 1974. They were not despite the much maligned London Fire Brigade, in the person of my late father at that time, and others, strongly advising and encouraging their implementation in high rise buildings since the sixties. I agree and accept the validity of your points I have highlighted but they are only part of the story.ken_shabby said:
Not really. The major safety issues particularly the cladding were all the result of later refurbishment, so the original design probably played little part. The two major flaws I would highlight are the dangerous nature of the cladding materisl, and the council not only ignoring residents safety worries, but trying to silence them ffs. I'd like to see heavy prison sentances for those responsible on both fronts, but judging by the initial finger wagging at the LFB, I don't see that happening.LenGlover said:i
Both Red and Blue politicians have blood on their hands.Bournemouth Addick said:I was a bit reluctant to post this as I'm aware it will probably result in accusations I'm trying to score points out of the dreadful events of that night. But it's a (sad) fact that it's indicative of the political approach of some, who appear to know the cost of everything and the value of nothing, including public safety in this case. As with the cost cutting in the design and materials used in the cladding. And it's important that people can see this approach for themselves.
Would those resources that were no longer available have made a material difference on the night? I don't know and I don't think I've seen it reported either in all honesty. Maybe those with much better and first hand knowledge have a view. But I do know I've never heard anyone in a similar situation complain they had too many resources available.
Grenfell Tower was built in 1974. 'Nuff said.
As for the firefighters, I accept any lessons we can learn would be valuable. But the 'stay put' advice seems to have failed due to the dangerous building flaws. Unless someone can come up with evidence that the fire services were warned how badly the building was prepared for a fire, I don't see how they could do other than what they did. I doubt the council were warning emergency services they had begun to authorise unsafe cladding in the area that might be problematic.
I din't really want to politicise this, though the Telegraph has already begun to, no doubt with half an eye on Boris's cuts of the fire brigade apparatus when he was mayor, and the upcoming GE. But there is a general rule here, that you cannot cut corners on safety. It will be good to see tjose who have done so pay with hsrd time, but as I said before, this enquiry haa started very badly regarding that.
I reiterate that politicians, both blue and red, have blood on their hands. This issue, and the problems arising, goes back more than 50 years1 -
Certainly agree sprinklers should be obligatory.0
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I think wait for phase 2 of the Grenfell inquiry to see where the blame really lies. The recent report was simply dealing with the fire.1
