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Good Recruitment - What’s The Secret?
Mendonca In Asdas
Posts: 22,653
What’s the secret?
We've made some shocking signings in recent years, and on quite a few Charlton Live Podcasts, when they’ve done a preview with the opposing press , they all say the same thing, we cocked up our recruitment in the summer, and didn’t get in the transfer targets we wanted, they could well be talking about us.
So how did Curbs get it so right?
We've made some shocking signings in recent years, and on quite a few Charlton Live Podcasts, when they’ve done a preview with the opposing press , they all say the same thing, we cocked up our recruitment in the summer, and didn’t get in the transfer targets we wanted, they could well be talking about us.
So how did Curbs get it so right?
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Comments
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I don’t think it has been as bad as some have made out.
I just think the management, tactics and application of the players has been largely dreadful.9 -
We should turn the black box off and turn it on again.6
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Not just Curbs. Lennie made a lot of astute signings on a shoestring budget and Powell recruited well too.3
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I agree that this summer we need to bring in the right players in although it is not just about recruitment.
Mike Bailey took one of the worst Charlton teams in 1979/80 and turned it around when we bounced back the next season.The only time we have done it. Iirc the only player brought in was a veteran Right Back from Spurs Terry Naylor just before Xmas.Although he did benefit from Paul Walsh's emergance also.
Although it was a level below, Mike assisted ably by Benny Fenton pulled it around without a major recruitment overhaul.3 -
nowadays there is so much competition for both established and up and coming players ;. question is 'do we have a unique selling point' ?, excuse the cliché .. money always talks, so does showing that the club is very ambitious and not a stale old has been outfit ..
Curbs and Powell had the knack and the money .. I do wonder if the current owner/manager/recruitment policy are all up to speed
A coherent plan for the near future, a workable playing structure and the place for the potential recruit within that structure, a friendly yet professional atmosphere during negotiations and OF COURSE the offer of a good salary
Our U S P at present is of a family orientated, happy clappy kinda place, a bit old fashioned, easy going .. do we have a coherent policy about anything ?
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Too much technology involved! Get back to putting scouts in grounds and watching matches6
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It's interesting that the op brings the question back to Curbs when there's a whole world of other people/clubs to learn from. I'm not saying don't consider him, but I wouldn't make him the focus of attention as many things will have moved on. For example, for a long while Curbs would keep players away from The Valley until he knew they were committed. Nowadays (forgetting the fact that we don’t actually own it) we have one of the best grounds in our division. I'd make it a priority to get players to the ground early.1
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Stig the reason I brought up Curbs, and I know people will say it was a different time, and you can’t do now what you did then, is because he is the most successful Charlton manager imo that I’ve seen in my lifetime, much as I love Powelly and appreciated Lennie, we were punching above our weight for years , pretty amazing really, but what made us successful, and how did we get to that point.0
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Goodness know the real answer. My starting couple of criteria would be something like:
- consider the squad, not just the starting XI. 46 games is a slog and we’ll probably need
- reliability is an underrated attribute. We have too many players who are good on their day but whose day rarely comes (either due to changeability in their form or, more often, because they are injury prone). It would be better to have a player that can put in 7 out of 10 performances 46 times a season than a player who can hit a 9 out of 10 performance 10 times a season and then is below par/injured/suspended the rest of the timePart of me says we should forget 2011/12, that success of that transfer window is likely to be a once in a lifetime thing. In reality I think we’ll need to build our squad over two or three windows.2 -
A telling point this season re recruitment has been the quality of our loans. Loans should be players that hopefully improve your squad ideally ones that are needing game time from bigger clubs. Something this season hasnt been right. Where are the Gallaghers, Cullens, Millars etc the loans we have are either nowhere near starting for us or the ones that are hardly improve the team imo
Perhaps we are not considered the right club for these players to come to at the moment0 -
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I think the answer to your question is that we had proper football people in position.Mendonca In Asdas said:Stig the reason I brought up Curbs, and I know people will say it was a different time, and you can’t do now what you did then, is because he is the most successful Charlton manager imo that I’ve seen in my lifetime, much as I love Powelly and appreciated Lennie, we were punching above our weight for years , pretty amazing really, but what made us successful, and how did we get to that point.
Murray
Simmons
Varney
That's before we even mention Curbushly and Day etc.
The trouble now is that we don't appear to have proper football people running the club.
Unless Sandgaard appoints the right people to advise him I fear we will remain in this league for much longer than we hoped.2 -
Disagree, Adkins was let down by poor recruitment and Jackson has struggled for the same reason.cafctom said:I don’t think it has been as bad as some have made out.
I just think the management, tactics and application of the players has been largely dreadful.
That’s not to say we haven’t brought in some good players, but it wasn’t enough. Too many signings weakened us compared to the players they replaced. Last summer we failed to adequately replace Amos, Maatsen, JFC, Millar and Aneke. CM, Castillo/Souare, any of our box to box/attacking CMs, Kirk and no one (until Aneke came back) aren’t as good as those five, and we needed to improve to go up rather than on out maintain last seasons squad.
Would Powell or Bowyer have taken this squad up?
Will you feel confident that we’ll get promoted if we change manager and keep the bulk of this squad together with almost no signings?
How many of this squad will go on to better things?
How many of this squad could be regulars in either of our last two promotion sides?
Which of this squad are we worried about losing in the summer? Who might attract a bid of £1m+?
Every promotion side has goals across the team, this squad doesn’t. We rely far too much on Washington and Stockley (plus Aneke when fit). There’s no midfielder who will score double figures. No midfielder or full/wing back who will get double figures for assists.
No doubt a few like Leko and Lee haven’t met expectations but players like them need a strong core. That’s why Lee did well in Luton’s promotion side, and why Leko played well for us as a striker (alongside Taylor with Cullen, Gallagher, Pratley and an in form Williams in midfield).We lack those top end players to build a team around, players who would no doubt do well in the Championship.
Recruitment needs to be much better this summer. If it’s not we’ll be in a similar position this time next year.5 -
It’s a poor squad currently but that’s not down solely to finances. Plenty of teams in our division that would like our budget over theirs. We’ve signed some really dreadful players in recent times with a smattering of decent ones. As far as I’m concerned there is a massive question mark hanging over whoever has been selecting our targets and that’s before Martin Sandgaard became actively involved. None of the coaching / football staff have got much credit with me at the moment. It’s a poor squad but I think we should be looking at least three or four places from where we currently are. This team are unbelievably LESS than the sum of its parts.0
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We are all scratching our heads but imagine being an Everton fan 😂 could they set some kind of record of getting relegated versus transfer spending ?0
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I personally don't think the problem is entirely the quality of player, it's that they're signed at random. The players we bring in don't accentuate the strengths of other players or fulfill a specific role in a system.
Stockley is the focal point of our team and as we know, he's dangerous with his head and limited with his feet. We signed a number of wingers over the past few windows - you would think with the idea of putting good crosses in - and yet the best crosser in the squad is none of the wingers we signed, it's Adam Matthews.
Actually CBT and DJ, as good as they are, are quite poor crossers of the ball.
And then we sign Scott Fraser, who is a possession player who needs it to feet, and plays it to feet. He's feeding Stockley, who plays with his head.
These are just a few examples, there are more, but it just shows we aren't building to a system.
Curbs knew exactly what type of player he needed to make the side better and he says that's how he started his recruitment process. By contrast, I think we just identify players first, bring them in, and hope they fit together.6 -
I think Curbs has made it clear that it was about more than football ability, but research was done on how they would fit in. I think Powell said something similar.
I would say with complete certainty that every year up until the sale of Parker, Curbs made us stronger. Sometimes by just a bit, but the direction of travel was always pointing one way.5 -
There is absolutely no way this team should have spent the entire season in the bottom half of this division, and the opening period of it around the relegation zone.Scoham said:
Disagree, Adkins was let down by poor recruitment and Jackson has struggled for the same reason.cafctom said:I don’t think it has been as bad as some have made out.
I just think the management, tactics and application of the players has been largely dreadful.
That’s not to say we haven’t brought in some good players, but it wasn’t enough. Too many signings weakened us compared to the players they replaced. Last summer we failed to adequately replace Amos, Maatsen, JFC, Millar and Aneke. CM, Castillo/Souare, any of our box to box/attacking CMs, Kirk and no one (until Aneke came back) aren’t as good as those five, and we needed to improve to go up rather than on out maintain last seasons squad.
Would Powell or Bowyer have taken this squad up?
Will you feel confident that we’ll get promoted if we change manager and keep the bulk of this squad together with almost no signings?
How many of this squad will go on to better things?
How many of this squad could be regulars in either of our last two promotion sides?
Which of this squad are we worried about losing in the summer? Who might attract a bid of £1m+?
Every promotion side has goals across the team, this squad doesn’t. We rely far too much on Washington and Stockley (plus Aneke when fit). There’s no midfielder who will score double figures. No midfielder or full/wing back who will get double figures for assists.
No doubt a few like Leko and Lee haven’t met expectations but players like them need a strong core. That’s why Lee did well in Luton’s promotion side, and why Leko played well for us as a striker (alongside Taylor with Cullen, Gallagher, Pratley and an in form Williams in midfield).We lack those top end players to build a team around, players who would no doubt do well in the Championship.
Recruitment needs to be much better this summer. If it’s not we’ll be in a similar position this time next year.
The recruitment timing could have and should have been better to improve chances of a promotion push. But I still believe that even with that major hiccup considered, the squad/managers have still enormously underperformed.
Clubs around us in the league like Burton, Lincoln, Cambridge, Cheltenham etc would give an arm and a leg to have a number of the players we’ve got. We just haven’t used them well at all, and they’ve also let themselves down.
I don’t think it’s a squad which is promotion worthy - but it certainly shouldn’t be this bad week in, week out.5 -
Scouting by scouts and the manager watching the player.
The manager finding out through contacts what the character and temperament of the player is and whether it's a fit for the squad.
Speaking to the player and being honest about what your objectives are, what you expect of the player and how and where they will be part of your plans.
Stats are great but people skills are greater when you want players running through walls for you and being happy for 9 months a season.
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I agree we’ve underachieved but we’re one point off 12th and would have had at least a few more points without the unusual situation of having no proper strikers fit.cafctom said:
There is absolutely no way this team should have spent the entire season in the bottom half of this division, and the opening period of it around the relegation zone.Scoham said:
Disagree, Adkins was let down by poor recruitment and Jackson has struggled for the same reason.cafctom said:I don’t think it has been as bad as some have made out.
I just think the management, tactics and application of the players has been largely dreadful.
That’s not to say we haven’t brought in some good players, but it wasn’t enough. Too many signings weakened us compared to the players they replaced. Last summer we failed to adequately replace Amos, Maatsen, JFC, Millar and Aneke. CM, Castillo/Souare, any of our box to box/attacking CMs, Kirk and no one (until Aneke came back) aren’t as good as those five, and we needed to improve to go up rather than on out maintain last seasons squad.
Would Powell or Bowyer have taken this squad up?
Will you feel confident that we’ll get promoted if we change manager and keep the bulk of this squad together with almost no signings?
How many of this squad will go on to better things?
How many of this squad could be regulars in either of our last two promotion sides?
Which of this squad are we worried about losing in the summer? Who might attract a bid of £1m+?
Every promotion side has goals across the team, this squad doesn’t. We rely far too much on Washington and Stockley (plus Aneke when fit). There’s no midfielder who will score double figures. No midfielder or full/wing back who will get double figures for assists.
No doubt a few like Leko and Lee haven’t met expectations but players like them need a strong core. That’s why Lee did well in Luton’s promotion side, and why Leko played well for us as a striker (alongside Taylor with Cullen, Gallagher, Pratley and an in form Williams in midfield).We lack those top end players to build a team around, players who would no doubt do well in the Championship.
Recruitment needs to be much better this summer. If it’s not we’ll be in a similar position this time next year.
The recruitment timing could have and should have been better to improve chances of a promotion push. But I still believe that even with that major hiccup considered, the squad/managers have still enormously underperformed.
Clubs around us in the league like Burton, Lincoln, Cambridge, Cheltenham etc would give an arm and a leg to have a number of the players we’ve got. We just haven’t used them well at all, and they’ve also let themselves down.
I don’t think it’s a squad which is promotion worthy - but it certainly shouldn’t be this bad week in, week out.
No doubt those clubs would happily take some of our players, but the comparison should be to the top 6, that’s where we want to be. How many of the top 6 would take any of our players to be regular starters?
We’re now at a point where we have nothing to play for and everyone wants to get the season finished. Therefore I don’t believe we can read too much into our current results. Having something to play for and confidence built up by having a good season can lift a team, it gives them something to keep working towards.
For me whether we finish 10th or 15th doesn’t change a great deal. A bit of luck with a chance being scored by us or the opposition could be the difference between finishing 12th or a few positions lower. Recruitment has to be a lot better either way. A new manager won’t turn this squad into a much more effective one. There’s truth in what Chunes days too, I believe a lack of quality is an issue but this squad also doesn’t fit together well either.0 -
"need to do a Powell window"
"Buy the best of League one and below and fill with out of favour championship loans"
Still keep seeing this and comparisons to Powell's promotion squad like out current bunch were plucked from non league and pointed towards the pitch.
We've had a "Powellesque" transfer season already. We've bought in some of the best players in League One and filled out with championship loans, apparently the standard of player we have now is a lot lot worse than Green, Stephens etc. yep some of those Powell players went onto the premier League, but no one was saying then "we need to buy players who'll be premier starters in 4 seasons time" they were then, at the time , very good league one players with potential.... A bit like some of the ones we've just bought...
Yann/ Stockley - Championship failure, drops downBWP/ Aneke - solid league goal scorerStephens/ Fraser - one of the league's best playmakersGreen/Kirk - highly rated lower league winger with good stats
There's strong parallels already, and its cost us near on 3mil at a guess, the difference between Powell's rebuild and our ongoing shit one, Powell wanted and signed them.
Identifying the players isn't the trouble, it is, more than likely, a problem of are we getting the players we NEED and the manager WANTS.
I'd rather see us spend 102k on some 22 year old from the Scottish championship I've never heard of if that player has been highlighted as being exactly what the manager and game plan needs, than, spunking 600K on a "league one name"
We can find the players, we can buy the players, we're just not buying the right ones, or, the wrong people are buying them.4 -
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So to coin the great Eric "we have all the right players ! We are just not necessarily playing them in the right order" sorry one for the older gang 😂😂1
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But he doesn't want people to advise him, he thinks running a football club is easy (his words not mine) He has said recently IF he were to appoint a CEO it would be somebody who thinks & would make exactly the same decisions that he himself would make. If we get out of this league it will imo be in spite of sandgaard not because of.blackpool72 said:
I think the answer to your question is that we had proper football people in position.Mendonca In Asdas said:Stig the reason I brought up Curbs, and I know people will say it was a different time, and you can’t do now what you did then, is because he is the most successful Charlton manager imo that I’ve seen in my lifetime, much as I love Powelly and appreciated Lennie, we were punching above our weight for years , pretty amazing really, but what made us successful, and how did we get to that point.
Murray
Simmons
Varney
That's before we even mention Curbushly and Day etc.
The trouble now is that we don't appear to have proper football people running the club.
Unless Sandgaard appoints the right people to advise him I fear we will remain in this league for much longer than we hoped.
Of course without sandgaards money who knows where we would be but I'm obviously talking about the day to day running of the football club.0 -
You might want to check the Annual report mate. He has loaned the club £12m so far. Not including whatever he spent buying us. Without him I doubt we would have a club to supportcharltonbob said:
But he doesn't want people to advise him, he thinks running a football club is easy (his words not mine) He has said recently IF he were to appoint a CEO it would be somebody who thinks & would make exactly the same decisions that he himself would make. If we get out of this league it will imo be in spite of sandgaard not because of.blackpool72 said:
I think the answer to your question is that we had proper football people in position.Mendonca In Asdas said:Stig the reason I brought up Curbs, and I know people will say it was a different time, and you can’t do now what you did then, is because he is the most successful Charlton manager imo that I’ve seen in my lifetime, much as I love Powelly and appreciated Lennie, we were punching above our weight for years , pretty amazing really, but what made us successful, and how did we get to that point.
Murray
Simmons
Varney
That's before we even mention Curbushly and Day etc.
The trouble now is that we don't appear to have proper football people running the club.
Unless Sandgaard appoints the right people to advise him I fear we will remain in this league for much longer than we hoped.3 -
Yes I did edit my comment, not quick enough thoughAndyG said:
You might want to check the Annual report mate. He has loaned the club £12m so far. Not including whatever he spent buying us. Without him I doubt we would have a club to supportcharltonbob said:
But he doesn't want people to advise him, he thinks running a football club is easy (his words not mine) He has said recently IF he were to appoint a CEO it would be somebody who thinks & would make exactly the same decisions that he himself would make. If we get out of this league it will imo be in spite of sandgaard not because of.blackpool72 said:
I think the answer to your question is that we had proper football people in position.Mendonca In Asdas said:Stig the reason I brought up Curbs, and I know people will say it was a different time, and you can’t do now what you did then, is because he is the most successful Charlton manager imo that I’ve seen in my lifetime, much as I love Powelly and appreciated Lennie, we were punching above our weight for years , pretty amazing really, but what made us successful, and how did we get to that point.
Murray
Simmons
Varney
That's before we even mention Curbushly and Day etc.
The trouble now is that we don't appear to have proper football people running the club.
Unless Sandgaard appoints the right people to advise him I fear we will remain in this league for much longer than we hoped.
I was only answering Blackpools comment re having the right people to advise him. 0 -
To me it feels like it's a squad put together through a committee and compromise.
Almost like you pick one then it's my turn then dave can have ago. Factor in the "favoured nation" agent as well.
Last January was a prime example. Bowyer got Stockley, Gallen got Millar, the black box picked out Kirk that fell through so an agent tipped us off to DJ. Wonder who's turn it was when we picked Schwartz?
We have got good players, almost all would be be worth a SQUAD place at any club in the divison, what we haven't got is the things that make up a team.
Goals
Pace
Set piece delivery
Leadership
Bottle
If you put a couple of players that had 3 or 4 of those things into the team there would be a massive difference. Imagine the difference a Kinsella or a Jackson would make? Obviously we lack a bit of stardust as well.
Another thing, I think, that is wrong with this squad is their are too many players that know this is their level. Of our starting 11 today there is probably only 3 who have got the faintest chance of making as Championship players.
The last thing, everyone knew we were short in both numbers and quality before the season started. 10 of today's 11 were here when it started and the 11th fell in our lap more than us actively recruiting him!2 -
Makes you wonder who decided on the two prem loanees - doesn’t look like JJ.And all that talk about how good it was that Chelsea loaned us back Burstow - no goals since his transfer and now not even getting a run out from the bench.0
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I don't think we've been signing the right characters.2
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What’s the secret? I would suggest that not recruiting your son into the set up who doesn’t know his arse from his elbow football wise would be a good start.It’s worked best from my experience when their is a good football man with full autonomy and the ownership just gets involved in setting a budget and letting the them run. Think Gallen in the early days, Powell under Slater. It’s not rocket science.2
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Injuries, whatever the cause, haven't helped once again. They seem endemic within Charlton for a good few seasons now and it's invariably the same players that suffer.0
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Yeah the two Prem loans have been odd, Nile John especially with all the hype/Chris Powell dropping him off stuff.EveshamAddick said:Makes you wonder who decided on the two prem loanees - doesn’t look like JJ.And all that talk about how good it was that Chelsea loaned us back Burstow - no goals since his transfer and now not even getting a run out from the bench.0
