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Next manager - Ben Garner confirmed (p256)
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We agree on the first point but your main point was that anyone from the divisions above wouldn't drop down if they were any good. What I still strongly disagree with. Then you counter it with wanting a Beale because they could be better. Based on not a lot.Scoham said:
I said for much of the season our recruitment was the main issue so I agree, but it still makes sense to go for whoever you think is the best manager you can attract. It's only an opinion of course which is why some owners go for young managers from a lower division and others would prefer an experienced manager.Cafc43v3r said:
Who is not the point is it. My whole point is unless it's a PE teacher or some other randomer the circumstances (ie recruitment, staff etc) will have more of a bearing on if it works or not than who it is.Scoham said:
We’re going in circles but agreeing managers like Adkins have mixed records so in most cases they’re seen as reasonable managers who will succeed in the right circumstances.Cafc43v3r said:
At the same time we can't say that Adkins isn't a good manager because of his time here. Or Reading, or Hull because of exactly the same reason.Scoham said:
It’s broadly true though of course there are exceptions. If a manager is rated as a Championship level manager with the amount of managerial changes that happen they’ve got a good chance of getting another job at that level.Cafc43v3r said:
No the original point was basically past performance, or lack of, doesn't really paint any sort of picture at all, without context.Scoham said:
I’d rather we over achieved for a year or two than not achieve at all.Cafc43v3r said:
How many managers ever over achieve for more than a very short period of time though?Scoham said:
Most do yes which is why I’d rather gamble on Beale or similar than go for another Robinson or Adkins.Cafc43v3r said:
But with some exceptions most managers fall into the decent bracket, don't they?Scoham said:Cafc43v3r said:
I don't buy this good managers become bad bit at all. You have to look at the whole thing in the round. Why are managers successful in one job then fail in two. Probably because all things aren't equal.Scoham said:
Any experienced manager dropping down is doing it for a reason, if they’re that good why aren’t they managing at a higher level?CAFCDAZ said:I still think Beale is a fantastic coach, but his as untried and tested as Jacko was.
A young manager stepping up is just as big a gamble, maybe like Powell and Bowyer they’re at the right club at the right time and won’t be able to recreate the success they’ve had.
We could get a proven solid League 1 manager like Robinson but I’d rather gamble on Beale being a lot better.
There are 44 teams in the two divisions above us. Without looking I would guess that half, at least, have changed managers in the last 18 months. Did they all become bad managers? Admittedly some of them probably were never very good and just poor appointments but I suspect if you look at it most of them would have a lot of other considerations as well.
Such as the board sold their star striker in January, they had a relatively small budget, the CE was to busy getting an official noddle partner in North Korea to buy the striker they needed etc etc.Managers like players can also improve or decline, so I don’t agree that good managers are always good managers and success is mainly down to the circumstances.As balham said the issue is working out who are the genuinely good managers and who has only done well due to having circumstances in their favour.I just don’t see bringing in someone who’s had a couple of promotions from this division as any more of a guarantee than taking a chance on say Taylor or Beale. Logically getting the experienced manager makes success more likely (hence TS appointing Adkins) but we know there are plenty of examples where it doesn’t work that way in reality.
There are some who are exceptionally good or exceptionally bad but generally speaking. If you go through our managers since Curbishley, they have all ultimately failed. If you exclude the 2 who were totally unsuitable for the job and haven't had a similar job before or since, most of them have done about as well as you would expect, when you consider the circumstances haven't they?
The clear exception, in my opinion was Pardew in the championship.
If Powell came back now would you expect him to get 100+ points next season? I wouldn't. Is he a worse manager now.......
Agree on the points about our managers since Curbs. Who was the totally unsuitable one other than Fraeye? I’ve probably forgotten someone really obvious.
Powell is an example of your first point, he’ll do well if it all comes together but he’s not good enough to overachieve when the situation makes things a lot more difficult - I doubt he’d have kept that 15/16 squad in the Championship for example, very few managers would have done.
Every clubs success comes when everything comes together doesn't it?
Les Reed is the other one BTW.
Not sure what you’re saying, is it that we should go for an experienced manager rather than Beale? That was the point originally made in the first comment in this set of quotes.
Of course, wasn’t thinking as far back as Reed.
As an example you can't compare Adkins's success at Southampton with his failed here and draw the conclusion he is "yesterday's man". Different players, different owners, different opponents, different staff.
You originally said that a manager who had been at a higher level would only come here because they couldn't get a job at a higher level because they aren't good enough any more, or words to that effect.
Dyche probably will end up getting a big championship job but is that because he isnt good enough, any more, to be a Premier League one?
In the same way we can’t assume Adkins is a great manager based on him managing a very well funded Southampton team who had various players who went on to impress at a much higher level than League 1.
That’s an assumption on Dyche but probably true due to his style of football putting Prem clubs off.
Big Mick got stick for not taking Ipswich back up but the season they sacked him they went down....
With Dyche, could he have kept Burnley up playing tiki taka? Almost certainly not. Big Sam didn't play that style when he had the players at Bolton to not. Would Dyche play like that if he had unlimited resource, I would suggest not.
Almost everyone, including the dinosaurs and yesterday's men have all the badges, circumstances are a bigger factor in success or not.
Burnley couldn’t have stayed up playing tika taka and no doubt he’d adapt to an extent with a bigger budget. However Prem club owners who want to play that way probably won’t have him near the top of their list. They’re far more likely to go for a manager who wants their team playing from the back regardless of budget.
I agree circumstance play a big part but doesn’t make me hope we appoint someone similar to Adkins ahead of Beale or Taylor. Who are you hoping we appoint?
If is another Adkins, another Robinson, another Powell or a Beale. Quite how you would find another of anyone is beyond me though.
If Beale was so good why didn't Rangers offer him the job when Stevie G left? Why didn't Liverpool try and keep him?
With no context CVs don't matter. Not in this game.0 -
addick1956 said:0
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Please stop posting bookies odds.0
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I’m saying the better managers are more likely to stay at a higher level, not that it’s so black and white that good managers never drop down.Cafc43v3r said:
We agree on the first point but your main point was that anyone from the divisions above wouldn't drop down if they were any good. What I still strongly disagree with. Then you counter it with wanting a Beale because they could be better. Based on not a lot.Scoham said:
I said for much of the season our recruitment was the main issue so I agree, but it still makes sense to go for whoever you think is the best manager you can attract. It's only an opinion of course which is why some owners go for young managers from a lower division and others would prefer an experienced manager.Cafc43v3r said:
Who is not the point is it. My whole point is unless it's a PE teacher or some other randomer the circumstances (ie recruitment, staff etc) will have more of a bearing on if it works or not than who it is.Scoham said:
We’re going in circles but agreeing managers like Adkins have mixed records so in most cases they’re seen as reasonable managers who will succeed in the right circumstances.Cafc43v3r said:
At the same time we can't say that Adkins isn't a good manager because of his time here. Or Reading, or Hull because of exactly the same reason.Scoham said:
It’s broadly true though of course there are exceptions. If a manager is rated as a Championship level manager with the amount of managerial changes that happen they’ve got a good chance of getting another job at that level.Cafc43v3r said:
No the original point was basically past performance, or lack of, doesn't really paint any sort of picture at all, without context.Scoham said:
I’d rather we over achieved for a year or two than not achieve at all.Cafc43v3r said:
How many managers ever over achieve for more than a very short period of time though?Scoham said:
Most do yes which is why I’d rather gamble on Beale or similar than go for another Robinson or Adkins.Cafc43v3r said:
But with some exceptions most managers fall into the decent bracket, don't they?Scoham said:Cafc43v3r said:
I don't buy this good managers become bad bit at all. You have to look at the whole thing in the round. Why are managers successful in one job then fail in two. Probably because all things aren't equal.Scoham said:
Any experienced manager dropping down is doing it for a reason, if they’re that good why aren’t they managing at a higher level?CAFCDAZ said:I still think Beale is a fantastic coach, but his as untried and tested as Jacko was.
A young manager stepping up is just as big a gamble, maybe like Powell and Bowyer they’re at the right club at the right time and won’t be able to recreate the success they’ve had.
We could get a proven solid League 1 manager like Robinson but I’d rather gamble on Beale being a lot better.
There are 44 teams in the two divisions above us. Without looking I would guess that half, at least, have changed managers in the last 18 months. Did they all become bad managers? Admittedly some of them probably were never very good and just poor appointments but I suspect if you look at it most of them would have a lot of other considerations as well.
Such as the board sold their star striker in January, they had a relatively small budget, the CE was to busy getting an official noddle partner in North Korea to buy the striker they needed etc etc.Managers like players can also improve or decline, so I don’t agree that good managers are always good managers and success is mainly down to the circumstances.As balham said the issue is working out who are the genuinely good managers and who has only done well due to having circumstances in their favour.I just don’t see bringing in someone who’s had a couple of promotions from this division as any more of a guarantee than taking a chance on say Taylor or Beale. Logically getting the experienced manager makes success more likely (hence TS appointing Adkins) but we know there are plenty of examples where it doesn’t work that way in reality.
There are some who are exceptionally good or exceptionally bad but generally speaking. If you go through our managers since Curbishley, they have all ultimately failed. If you exclude the 2 who were totally unsuitable for the job and haven't had a similar job before or since, most of them have done about as well as you would expect, when you consider the circumstances haven't they?
The clear exception, in my opinion was Pardew in the championship.
If Powell came back now would you expect him to get 100+ points next season? I wouldn't. Is he a worse manager now.......
Agree on the points about our managers since Curbs. Who was the totally unsuitable one other than Fraeye? I’ve probably forgotten someone really obvious.
Powell is an example of your first point, he’ll do well if it all comes together but he’s not good enough to overachieve when the situation makes things a lot more difficult - I doubt he’d have kept that 15/16 squad in the Championship for example, very few managers would have done.
Every clubs success comes when everything comes together doesn't it?
Les Reed is the other one BTW.
Not sure what you’re saying, is it that we should go for an experienced manager rather than Beale? That was the point originally made in the first comment in this set of quotes.
Of course, wasn’t thinking as far back as Reed.
As an example you can't compare Adkins's success at Southampton with his failed here and draw the conclusion he is "yesterday's man". Different players, different owners, different opponents, different staff.
You originally said that a manager who had been at a higher level would only come here because they couldn't get a job at a higher level because they aren't good enough any more, or words to that effect.
Dyche probably will end up getting a big championship job but is that because he isnt good enough, any more, to be a Premier League one?
In the same way we can’t assume Adkins is a great manager based on him managing a very well funded Southampton team who had various players who went on to impress at a much higher level than League 1.
That’s an assumption on Dyche but probably true due to his style of football putting Prem clubs off.
Big Mick got stick for not taking Ipswich back up but the season they sacked him they went down....
With Dyche, could he have kept Burnley up playing tiki taka? Almost certainly not. Big Sam didn't play that style when he had the players at Bolton to not. Would Dyche play like that if he had unlimited resource, I would suggest not.
Almost everyone, including the dinosaurs and yesterday's men have all the badges, circumstances are a bigger factor in success or not.
Burnley couldn’t have stayed up playing tika taka and no doubt he’d adapt to an extent with a bigger budget. However Prem club owners who want to play that way probably won’t have him near the top of their list. They’re far more likely to go for a manager who wants their team playing from the back regardless of budget.
I agree circumstance play a big part but doesn’t make me hope we appoint someone similar to Adkins ahead of Beale or Taylor. Who are you hoping we appoint?
If is another Adkins, another Robinson, another Powell or a Beale. Quite how you would find another of anyone is beyond me though.
If Beale was so good why didn't Rangers offer him the job when Stevie G left? Why didn't Liverpool try and keep him?
With no context CVs don't matter. Not in this game.
I’m not claiming my hope that we take a chance on Beale is based on a great deal. From what I’ve seen he’s rated as a coach and could potentially make the step up. He could also be a complete disaster, something that should be less likely to happen if we go the experienced route.
Rangers clearly felt they could do better or he wasn’t interested at the time. It could also be argued if he really wanted to be a manager he’d have done it by now.It’s my preference that we go for a young manager or coach when we’re at this level. It’s not based on much other than looking at the type of managers who have been promoted to the Championship in recent history. While I have a preference it’s not a strong one, there are other routes we could go and be equally as successful. I’d be happy enough with an appointment like Warburton as it would have logic to it.1 -
who heads up our recruitment? Is that normal?Todds_right_hook said:
I don't get this. What format?bertpalmer said:
no one decent wants to be manager under TS formatCH4RLTON said:Is this longest it’s ever taken us to appoint a new manager?
what do we do that's so different to every other club?0 -
Told you that, have they?bertpalmer said:
no one decent wants to be manager under TS formatCH4RLTON said:Is this longest it’s ever taken us to appoint a new manager?1 -
I sure hope so. There have been so many disasters, starting with Dowie.0
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Yes. I've used Wimbledon before as an example and I'll use them again. They have a committee of non football people who make all decisions on transfers and contracts.Stu_of_Kunming said:
who heads up our recruitment? Is that normal?Todds_right_hook said:
I don't get this. What format?bertpalmer said:
no one decent wants to be manager under TS formatCH4RLTON said:Is this longest it’s ever taken us to appoint a new manager?
what do we do that's so different to every other club?
its more common than you ours think. But I'm guessing that doesn't fit into most peoples ts bashing agenda.
jackson took our job knowing the set up and then again at Wimbledon. Either jj is stupid or he has a greater understanding of how football clubs are run than the members of Charlton life 🤔12 -
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colthe3rd said:Please stop posting bookies odds.
What are the odds on that..4 -
I do get what you are saying and the logic behind it. I also think Powell had his faults, a big one being too cautious within games. Similar to Southgate with England in some ways. But overall he just fitted. When he was here, the fans loved him and the players would run through brick walls for him. When you have that, it is stupid throwing it away. When he told us we had our Charlton back, we knew he got it and we loved him for it because it meant as much to him as to us. Maybe Chrissy has found it just as hard to find subsequently as we have managerially. I think it was Duchatelet's first criminal act and it basically stemmed from having a plan and throwing out opportunities to pursue it as Powell was definitely an opportunity for an open minded owner who could adapt to what was around him. Whilst his heart seems to be in the right place, I suspect Sandgaard has this trait.Scoham said:
True but you’d expect the better managers to have more successes than failures. Powell did a brilliant job for us and could have taken us further with enough backing, but if he came back I wouldn’t expect him to repeat that success. Partly for his ability to do it and partly because it’s unlikely so many signings would work out as well as they did.MuttleyCAFC said:He didn't have to as far as I am concerened. He impressed at Charlton. Jobs differ and good managers have failures on their CVs as well as successes.2 -
SG is head of recruitment .. gone are the days when a manager went to look at players , speak to people about him etc etc remember Curbs saying it can take up to a year for him to make a decision on a player .. now at all clubs in prem championship and most of league one who can afford it the manager just highlights the players or positions he wants and then leaves it all to the recruitment team and scouts … the first time the manager then sees the player is when he turns up for training , you don’t even get the manager and player picture together now that tells how recruitment as changedStu_of_Kunming said:
who heads up our recruitment? Is that normal?Todds_right_hook said:
I don't get this. What format?bertpalmer said:
no one decent wants to be manager under TS formatCH4RLTON said:Is this longest it’s ever taken us to appoint a new manager?
what do we do that's so different to every other club?2 -
What format we are no diff to 80% of clubsMajor said:
Told you that, have they?bertpalmer said:
no one decent wants to be manager under TS formatCH4RLTON said:Is this longest it’s ever taken us to appoint a new manager?0 -
I definitely backed Powell at the time RD came in and agree there was a great opportunity for us to really push on had the plan simply be to back him. I hoped for the same with TS and Bowyer but that felt different, Bowyer seemed to get to a point where he needed a change himself. I don’t think Powell was at that point, instead he needed backing in the window but ended up with Thuram, Nego etc.MuttleyCAFC said:
I do get what you are saying and the logic behind it. I also think Powell had his faults, a big one being too cautious within games. Similar to Southgate with England in some ways. But overall he just fitted. When he was here, the fans loved him and the players would run through brick walls for him. When you have that, it is stupid throwing it away. When he told us we had our Charlton back, we knew he got it and we loved him for it because it meant as much to him as to us. Maybe Chrissy has found it just as hard to find subsequently as we have managerially. I think it was Duchatelet's first criminal act and it basically stemmed from having a plan and throwing out opportunities to pursue it as Powell was definitely an opportunity for an open minded owner who could adapt to what was around him. Whilst his heart seems to be in the right place, I suspect Sandgaard has this trait.Scoham said:
True but you’d expect the better managers to have more successes than failures. Powell did a brilliant job for us and could have taken us further with enough backing, but if he came back I wouldn’t expect him to repeat that success. Partly for his ability to do it and partly because it’s unlikely so many signings would work out as well as they did.MuttleyCAFC said:He didn't have to as far as I am concerened. He impressed at Charlton. Jobs differ and good managers have failures on their CVs as well as successes.
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Non football people with zero experience? I doubt it.Todds_right_hook said:
Yes. I've used Wimbledon before as an example and I'll use them again. They have a committee of non football people who make all decisions on transfers and contracts.Stu_of_Kunming said:
who heads up our recruitment? Is that normal?Todds_right_hook said:
I don't get this. What format?bertpalmer said:
no one decent wants to be manager under TS formatCH4RLTON said:Is this longest it’s ever taken us to appoint a new manager?
what do we do that's so different to every other club?
its more common than you ours think. But I'm guessing that doesn't fit into most peoples ts bashing agenda.
jackson took our job knowing the set up and then again at Wimbledon. Either jj is stupid or he has a greater understanding of how football clubs are run than the members of Charlton life 🤔2 -
So why does the owner of that club say the recruitment team works in an entirely different way?RonnieMoore said:
SG is head of recruitment .. gone are the days when a manager went to look at players , speak to people about him etc etc remember Curbs saying it can take up to a year for him to make a decision on a player .. now at all clubs in prem championship and most of league one who can afford it the manager just highlights the players or positions he wants and then leaves it all to the recruitment team and scouts … the first time the manager then sees the player is when he turns up for training , you don’t even get the manager and player picture together now that tells how recruitment as changedStu_of_Kunming said:
who heads up our recruitment? Is that normal?Todds_right_hook said:
I don't get this. What format?bertpalmer said:
no one decent wants to be manager under TS formatCH4RLTON said:Is this longest it’s ever taken us to appoint a new manager?
what do we do that's so different to every other club?0 -
But you can say that about manager who is successful due to having the right circumstances. Recent example, is ancelotti a good manager? He finished 10th with everton and then went to real madrid where the circumstances are more favourable and they won the league.Scoham said:
We’re going in circles but agreeing managers like Adkins have mixed records so in most cases they’re seen as reasonable managers who will succeed in the right circumstances.Cafc43v3r said:
At the same time we can't say that Adkins isn't a good manager because of his time here. Or Reading, or Hull because of exactly the same reason.Scoham said:
It’s broadly true though of course there are exceptions. If a manager is rated as a Championship level manager with the amount of managerial changes that happen they’ve got a good chance of getting another job at that level.Cafc43v3r said:
No the original point was basically past performance, or lack of, doesn't really paint any sort of picture at all, without context.Scoham said:
I’d rather we over achieved for a year or two than not achieve at all.Cafc43v3r said:
How many managers ever over achieve for more than a very short period of time though?Scoham said:
Most do yes which is why I’d rather gamble on Beale or similar than go for another Robinson or Adkins.Cafc43v3r said:
But with some exceptions most managers fall into the decent bracket, don't they?Scoham said:Cafc43v3r said:
I don't buy this good managers become bad bit at all. You have to look at the whole thing in the round. Why are managers successful in one job then fail in two. Probably because all things aren't equal.Scoham said:
Any experienced manager dropping down is doing it for a reason, if they’re that good why aren’t they managing at a higher level?CAFCDAZ said:I still think Beale is a fantastic coach, but his as untried and tested as Jacko was.
A young manager stepping up is just as big a gamble, maybe like Powell and Bowyer they’re at the right club at the right time and won’t be able to recreate the success they’ve had.
We could get a proven solid League 1 manager like Robinson but I’d rather gamble on Beale being a lot better.
There are 44 teams in the two divisions above us. Without looking I would guess that half, at least, have changed managers in the last 18 months. Did they all become bad managers? Admittedly some of them probably were never very good and just poor appointments but I suspect if you look at it most of them would have a lot of other considerations as well.
Such as the board sold their star striker in January, they had a relatively small budget, the CE was to busy getting an official noddle partner in North Korea to buy the striker they needed etc etc.Managers like players can also improve or decline, so I don’t agree that good managers are always good managers and success is mainly down to the circumstances.As balham said the issue is working out who are the genuinely good managers and who has only done well due to having circumstances in their favour.I just don’t see bringing in someone who’s had a couple of promotions from this division as any more of a guarantee than taking a chance on say Taylor or Beale. Logically getting the experienced manager makes success more likely (hence TS appointing Adkins) but we know there are plenty of examples where it doesn’t work that way in reality.
There are some who are exceptionally good or exceptionally bad but generally speaking. If you go through our managers since Curbishley, they have all ultimately failed. If you exclude the 2 who were totally unsuitable for the job and haven't had a similar job before or since, most of them have done about as well as you would expect, when you consider the circumstances haven't they?
The clear exception, in my opinion was Pardew in the championship.
If Powell came back now would you expect him to get 100+ points next season? I wouldn't. Is he a worse manager now.......
Agree on the points about our managers since Curbs. Who was the totally unsuitable one other than Fraeye? I’ve probably forgotten someone really obvious.
Powell is an example of your first point, he’ll do well if it all comes together but he’s not good enough to overachieve when the situation makes things a lot more difficult - I doubt he’d have kept that 15/16 squad in the Championship for example, very few managers would have done.
Every clubs success comes when everything comes together doesn't it?
Les Reed is the other one BTW.
Not sure what you’re saying, is it that we should go for an experienced manager rather than Beale? That was the point originally made in the first comment in this set of quotes.
Of course, wasn’t thinking as far back as Reed.
As an example you can't compare Adkins's success at Southampton with his failed here and draw the conclusion he is "yesterday's man". Different players, different owners, different opponents, different staff.
You originally said that a manager who had been at a higher level would only come here because they couldn't get a job at a higher level because they aren't good enough any more, or words to that effect.
Dyche probably will end up getting a big championship job but is that because he isnt good enough, any more, to be a Premier League one?
In the same way we can’t assume Adkins is a great manager based on him managing a very well funded Southampton team who had various players who went on to impress at a much higher level than League 1.
That’s an assumption on Dyche but probably true due to his style of football putting Prem clubs off.
Big Mick got stick for not taking Ipswich back up but the season they sacked him they went down....
With Dyche, could he have kept Burnley up playing tiki taka? Almost certainly not. Big Sam didn't play that style when he had the players at Bolton to not. Would Dyche play like that if he had unlimited resource, I would suggest not.
Almost everyone, including the dinosaurs and yesterday's men have all the badges, circumstances are a bigger factor in success or not.1 - Sponsored links:
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I’ve had a look, there’s an article on it. Their committee has 5 members, the CEO, the head coach, the recruitment and analytics manager and two senior scouts.Stu_of_Kunming said:
Non football people with zero experience? I doubt it.Todds_right_hook said:
Yes. I've used Wimbledon before as an example and I'll use them again. They have a committee of non football people who make all decisions on transfers and contracts.Stu_of_Kunming said:
who heads up our recruitment? Is that normal?Todds_right_hook said:
I don't get this. What format?bertpalmer said:
no one decent wants to be manager under TS formatCH4RLTON said:Is this longest it’s ever taken us to appoint a new manager?
what do we do that's so different to every other club?
its more common than you ours think. But I'm guessing that doesn't fit into most peoples ts bashing agenda.
jackson took our job knowing the set up and then again at Wimbledon. Either jj is stupid or he has a greater understanding of how football clubs are run than the members of Charlton life 🤔
CEO Joe Palmer was previously a director at Shakhtar Donetsk and COO with Sheff Wed. He’s been at AFCW since 2018 first as COO and then CEO.
Will Daniels recruitment and analytics manager worked as a sports trader for Spreadex since 2003. He joined AFCW as an analyst in 2019 and moved to his current role in 2021.
No idea who the senior scouts are.
Not wildly different from what we’re doing but the CEO has been in football for a lot longer and I assume the senior scouts have decent experience in the game too.
https://www.afcwimbledon.co.uk/news/2021/april/robbo-key-to-our-football-revolution/Q: So, a football committee has been created – but who sits on it?
Joe: There’s me, Robbo, our new recruitment and analytics manager, Will Daniels, and two senior scouts.
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Not sure where Everton’s budget is but 10th can’t be miles off expectations?SamB09 said:
But you can say that about manager who is successful due to having the right circumstances. Recent example, is ancelotti a good manager? He finished 10th with everton and then went to real madrid where the circumstances are more favourable and they won the league.Scoham said:
We’re going in circles but agreeing managers like Adkins have mixed records so in most cases they’re seen as reasonable managers who will succeed in the right circumstances.Cafc43v3r said:
At the same time we can't say that Adkins isn't a good manager because of his time here. Or Reading, or Hull because of exactly the same reason.Scoham said:
It’s broadly true though of course there are exceptions. If a manager is rated as a Championship level manager with the amount of managerial changes that happen they’ve got a good chance of getting another job at that level.Cafc43v3r said:
No the original point was basically past performance, or lack of, doesn't really paint any sort of picture at all, without context.Scoham said:
I’d rather we over achieved for a year or two than not achieve at all.Cafc43v3r said:
How many managers ever over achieve for more than a very short period of time though?Scoham said:
Most do yes which is why I’d rather gamble on Beale or similar than go for another Robinson or Adkins.Cafc43v3r said:
But with some exceptions most managers fall into the decent bracket, don't they?Scoham said:Cafc43v3r said:
I don't buy this good managers become bad bit at all. You have to look at the whole thing in the round. Why are managers successful in one job then fail in two. Probably because all things aren't equal.Scoham said:
Any experienced manager dropping down is doing it for a reason, if they’re that good why aren’t they managing at a higher level?CAFCDAZ said:I still think Beale is a fantastic coach, but his as untried and tested as Jacko was.
A young manager stepping up is just as big a gamble, maybe like Powell and Bowyer they’re at the right club at the right time and won’t be able to recreate the success they’ve had.
We could get a proven solid League 1 manager like Robinson but I’d rather gamble on Beale being a lot better.
There are 44 teams in the two divisions above us. Without looking I would guess that half, at least, have changed managers in the last 18 months. Did they all become bad managers? Admittedly some of them probably were never very good and just poor appointments but I suspect if you look at it most of them would have a lot of other considerations as well.
Such as the board sold their star striker in January, they had a relatively small budget, the CE was to busy getting an official noddle partner in North Korea to buy the striker they needed etc etc.Managers like players can also improve or decline, so I don’t agree that good managers are always good managers and success is mainly down to the circumstances.As balham said the issue is working out who are the genuinely good managers and who has only done well due to having circumstances in their favour.I just don’t see bringing in someone who’s had a couple of promotions from this division as any more of a guarantee than taking a chance on say Taylor or Beale. Logically getting the experienced manager makes success more likely (hence TS appointing Adkins) but we know there are plenty of examples where it doesn’t work that way in reality.
There are some who are exceptionally good or exceptionally bad but generally speaking. If you go through our managers since Curbishley, they have all ultimately failed. If you exclude the 2 who were totally unsuitable for the job and haven't had a similar job before or since, most of them have done about as well as you would expect, when you consider the circumstances haven't they?
The clear exception, in my opinion was Pardew in the championship.
If Powell came back now would you expect him to get 100+ points next season? I wouldn't. Is he a worse manager now.......
Agree on the points about our managers since Curbs. Who was the totally unsuitable one other than Fraeye? I’ve probably forgotten someone really obvious.
Powell is an example of your first point, he’ll do well if it all comes together but he’s not good enough to overachieve when the situation makes things a lot more difficult - I doubt he’d have kept that 15/16 squad in the Championship for example, very few managers would have done.
Every clubs success comes when everything comes together doesn't it?
Les Reed is the other one BTW.
Not sure what you’re saying, is it that we should go for an experienced manager rather than Beale? That was the point originally made in the first comment in this set of quotes.
Of course, wasn’t thinking as far back as Reed.
As an example you can't compare Adkins's success at Southampton with his failed here and draw the conclusion he is "yesterday's man". Different players, different owners, different opponents, different staff.
You originally said that a manager who had been at a higher level would only come here because they couldn't get a job at a higher level because they aren't good enough any more, or words to that effect.
Dyche probably will end up getting a big championship job but is that because he isnt good enough, any more, to be a Premier League one?
In the same way we can’t assume Adkins is a great manager based on him managing a very well funded Southampton team who had various players who went on to impress at a much higher level than League 1.
That’s an assumption on Dyche but probably true due to his style of football putting Prem clubs off.
Big Mick got stick for not taking Ipswich back up but the season they sacked him they went down....
With Dyche, could he have kept Burnley up playing tiki taka? Almost certainly not. Big Sam didn't play that style when he had the players at Bolton to not. Would Dyche play like that if he had unlimited resource, I would suggest not.
Almost everyone, including the dinosaurs and yesterday's men have all the badges, circumstances are a bigger factor in success or not.0 -
I think its so difficult to judge from our position as fans. What you really need is to see them in their day to day role behind the scenes, which we aren't privy to. How they motivate players, provide instructions, their commitment and drive each day of the week, training, respect from the players.SamB09 said:
But you can say that about manager who is successful due to having the right circumstances. Recent example, is ancelotti a good manager? He finished 10th with everton and then went to real madrid where the circumstances are more favourable and they won the league.Scoham said:
We’re going in circles but agreeing managers like Adkins have mixed records so in most cases they’re seen as reasonable managers who will succeed in the right circumstances.Cafc43v3r said:
At the same time we can't say that Adkins isn't a good manager because of his time here. Or Reading, or Hull because of exactly the same reason.Scoham said:
It’s broadly true though of course there are exceptions. If a manager is rated as a Championship level manager with the amount of managerial changes that happen they’ve got a good chance of getting another job at that level.Cafc43v3r said:
No the original point was basically past performance, or lack of, doesn't really paint any sort of picture at all, without context.Scoham said:
I’d rather we over achieved for a year or two than not achieve at all.Cafc43v3r said:
How many managers ever over achieve for more than a very short period of time though?Scoham said:
Most do yes which is why I’d rather gamble on Beale or similar than go for another Robinson or Adkins.Cafc43v3r said:
But with some exceptions most managers fall into the decent bracket, don't they?Scoham said:Cafc43v3r said:
I don't buy this good managers become bad bit at all. You have to look at the whole thing in the round. Why are managers successful in one job then fail in two. Probably because all things aren't equal.Scoham said:
Any experienced manager dropping down is doing it for a reason, if they’re that good why aren’t they managing at a higher level?CAFCDAZ said:I still think Beale is a fantastic coach, but his as untried and tested as Jacko was.
A young manager stepping up is just as big a gamble, maybe like Powell and Bowyer they’re at the right club at the right time and won’t be able to recreate the success they’ve had.
We could get a proven solid League 1 manager like Robinson but I’d rather gamble on Beale being a lot better.
There are 44 teams in the two divisions above us. Without looking I would guess that half, at least, have changed managers in the last 18 months. Did they all become bad managers? Admittedly some of them probably were never very good and just poor appointments but I suspect if you look at it most of them would have a lot of other considerations as well.
Such as the board sold their star striker in January, they had a relatively small budget, the CE was to busy getting an official noddle partner in North Korea to buy the striker they needed etc etc.Managers like players can also improve or decline, so I don’t agree that good managers are always good managers and success is mainly down to the circumstances.As balham said the issue is working out who are the genuinely good managers and who has only done well due to having circumstances in their favour.I just don’t see bringing in someone who’s had a couple of promotions from this division as any more of a guarantee than taking a chance on say Taylor or Beale. Logically getting the experienced manager makes success more likely (hence TS appointing Adkins) but we know there are plenty of examples where it doesn’t work that way in reality.
There are some who are exceptionally good or exceptionally bad but generally speaking. If you go through our managers since Curbishley, they have all ultimately failed. If you exclude the 2 who were totally unsuitable for the job and haven't had a similar job before or since, most of them have done about as well as you would expect, when you consider the circumstances haven't they?
The clear exception, in my opinion was Pardew in the championship.
If Powell came back now would you expect him to get 100+ points next season? I wouldn't. Is he a worse manager now.......
Agree on the points about our managers since Curbs. Who was the totally unsuitable one other than Fraeye? I’ve probably forgotten someone really obvious.
Powell is an example of your first point, he’ll do well if it all comes together but he’s not good enough to overachieve when the situation makes things a lot more difficult - I doubt he’d have kept that 15/16 squad in the Championship for example, very few managers would have done.
Every clubs success comes when everything comes together doesn't it?
Les Reed is the other one BTW.
Not sure what you’re saying, is it that we should go for an experienced manager rather than Beale? That was the point originally made in the first comment in this set of quotes.
Of course, wasn’t thinking as far back as Reed.
As an example you can't compare Adkins's success at Southampton with his failed here and draw the conclusion he is "yesterday's man". Different players, different owners, different opponents, different staff.
You originally said that a manager who had been at a higher level would only come here because they couldn't get a job at a higher level because they aren't good enough any more, or words to that effect.
Dyche probably will end up getting a big championship job but is that because he isnt good enough, any more, to be a Premier League one?
In the same way we can’t assume Adkins is a great manager based on him managing a very well funded Southampton team who had various players who went on to impress at a much higher level than League 1.
That’s an assumption on Dyche but probably true due to his style of football putting Prem clubs off.
Big Mick got stick for not taking Ipswich back up but the season they sacked him they went down....
With Dyche, could he have kept Burnley up playing tiki taka? Almost certainly not. Big Sam didn't play that style when he had the players at Bolton to not. Would Dyche play like that if he had unlimited resource, I would suggest not.
Almost everyone, including the dinosaurs and yesterday's men have all the badges, circumstances are a bigger factor in success or not.
We as fans only see the results, which as people have stated depend on circumstances and luck.1 -
Further to that, my opinion was that I felt that Adkins was out of touch with the players and a little bit in a dreamworld of positivity.
When Jacko took over I think the players felt envigorated by someone they connected with on a personal level. But I do suspect that worked against him when things started to go wrong in that he was too close. I also suspect he lost their belief with his tactical rigidity and the odd selections in the defensive positions.
It's a fine line for a manager between connecting personally and maintaining authority.1 -
10th with Everton was good and few at the club wanted him to leaveSamB09 said:
But you can say that about manager who is successful due to having the right circumstances. Recent example, is ancelotti a good manager? He finished 10th with everton and then went to real madrid where the circumstances are more favourable and they won the league.Scoham said:
We’re going in circles but agreeing managers like Adkins have mixed records so in most cases they’re seen as reasonable managers who will succeed in the right circumstances.Cafc43v3r said:
At the same time we can't say that Adkins isn't a good manager because of his time here. Or Reading, or Hull because of exactly the same reason.Scoham said:
It’s broadly true though of course there are exceptions. If a manager is rated as a Championship level manager with the amount of managerial changes that happen they’ve got a good chance of getting another job at that level.Cafc43v3r said:
No the original point was basically past performance, or lack of, doesn't really paint any sort of picture at all, without context.Scoham said:
I’d rather we over achieved for a year or two than not achieve at all.Cafc43v3r said:
How many managers ever over achieve for more than a very short period of time though?Scoham said:
Most do yes which is why I’d rather gamble on Beale or similar than go for another Robinson or Adkins.Cafc43v3r said:
But with some exceptions most managers fall into the decent bracket, don't they?Scoham said:Cafc43v3r said:
I don't buy this good managers become bad bit at all. You have to look at the whole thing in the round. Why are managers successful in one job then fail in two. Probably because all things aren't equal.Scoham said:
Any experienced manager dropping down is doing it for a reason, if they’re that good why aren’t they managing at a higher level?CAFCDAZ said:I still think Beale is a fantastic coach, but his as untried and tested as Jacko was.
A young manager stepping up is just as big a gamble, maybe like Powell and Bowyer they’re at the right club at the right time and won’t be able to recreate the success they’ve had.
We could get a proven solid League 1 manager like Robinson but I’d rather gamble on Beale being a lot better.
There are 44 teams in the two divisions above us. Without looking I would guess that half, at least, have changed managers in the last 18 months. Did they all become bad managers? Admittedly some of them probably were never very good and just poor appointments but I suspect if you look at it most of them would have a lot of other considerations as well.
Such as the board sold their star striker in January, they had a relatively small budget, the CE was to busy getting an official noddle partner in North Korea to buy the striker they needed etc etc.Managers like players can also improve or decline, so I don’t agree that good managers are always good managers and success is mainly down to the circumstances.As balham said the issue is working out who are the genuinely good managers and who has only done well due to having circumstances in their favour.I just don’t see bringing in someone who’s had a couple of promotions from this division as any more of a guarantee than taking a chance on say Taylor or Beale. Logically getting the experienced manager makes success more likely (hence TS appointing Adkins) but we know there are plenty of examples where it doesn’t work that way in reality.
There are some who are exceptionally good or exceptionally bad but generally speaking. If you go through our managers since Curbishley, they have all ultimately failed. If you exclude the 2 who were totally unsuitable for the job and haven't had a similar job before or since, most of them have done about as well as you would expect, when you consider the circumstances haven't they?
The clear exception, in my opinion was Pardew in the championship.
If Powell came back now would you expect him to get 100+ points next season? I wouldn't. Is he a worse manager now.......
Agree on the points about our managers since Curbs. Who was the totally unsuitable one other than Fraeye? I’ve probably forgotten someone really obvious.
Powell is an example of your first point, he’ll do well if it all comes together but he’s not good enough to overachieve when the situation makes things a lot more difficult - I doubt he’d have kept that 15/16 squad in the Championship for example, very few managers would have done.
Every clubs success comes when everything comes together doesn't it?
Les Reed is the other one BTW.
Not sure what you’re saying, is it that we should go for an experienced manager rather than Beale? That was the point originally made in the first comment in this set of quotes.
Of course, wasn’t thinking as far back as Reed.
As an example you can't compare Adkins's success at Southampton with his failed here and draw the conclusion he is "yesterday's man". Different players, different owners, different opponents, different staff.
You originally said that a manager who had been at a higher level would only come here because they couldn't get a job at a higher level because they aren't good enough any more, or words to that effect.
Dyche probably will end up getting a big championship job but is that because he isnt good enough, any more, to be a Premier League one?
In the same way we can’t assume Adkins is a great manager based on him managing a very well funded Southampton team who had various players who went on to impress at a much higher level than League 1.
That’s an assumption on Dyche but probably true due to his style of football putting Prem clubs off.
Big Mick got stick for not taking Ipswich back up but the season they sacked him they went down....
With Dyche, could he have kept Burnley up playing tiki taka? Almost certainly not. Big Sam didn't play that style when he had the players at Bolton to not. Would Dyche play like that if he had unlimited resource, I would suggest not.
Almost everyone, including the dinosaurs and yesterday's men have all the badges, circumstances are a bigger factor in success or not.0 -
That's your choice but it happens! I'm not saying it's right but it happens. The Wimbledon committee decided to sell their star striker to Wrexham instead of paying him an extra 2k a month. That back fired!!Stu_of_Kunming said:
Non football people with zero experience? I doubt it.Todds_right_hook said:
Yes. I've used Wimbledon before as an example and I'll use them again. They have a committee of non football people who make all decisions on transfers and contracts.Stu_of_Kunming said:
who heads up our recruitment? Is that normal?Todds_right_hook said:
I don't get this. What format?bertpalmer said:
no one decent wants to be manager under TS formatCH4RLTON said:Is this longest it’s ever taken us to appoint a new manager?
what do we do that's so different to every other club?
its more common than you ours think. But I'm guessing that doesn't fit into most peoples ts bashing agenda.
jackson took our job knowing the set up and then again at Wimbledon. Either jj is stupid or he has a greater understanding of how football clubs are run than the members of Charlton life 🤔0 -
Well?0
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Hole in the ground full of water...do i get a prizetheeenorth said:Well?
5 -
I doubt the scouts are “non-football” people, as previously described, and the head coach is part of the committee. You could equate that to the recruitment structure at Charlton in 2011.Scoham said:
I’ve had a look, there’s an article on it. Their committee has 5 members, the CEO, the head coach, the recruitment and analytics manager and two senior scouts.Stu_of_Kunming said:
Non football people with zero experience? I doubt it.Todds_right_hook said:
Yes. I've used Wimbledon before as an example and I'll use them again. They have a committee of non football people who make all decisions on transfers and contracts.Stu_of_Kunming said:
who heads up our recruitment? Is that normal?Todds_right_hook said:
I don't get this. What format?bertpalmer said:
no one decent wants to be manager under TS formatCH4RLTON said:Is this longest it’s ever taken us to appoint a new manager?
what do we do that's so different to every other club?
its more common than you ours think. But I'm guessing that doesn't fit into most peoples ts bashing agenda.
jackson took our job knowing the set up and then again at Wimbledon. Either jj is stupid or he has a greater understanding of how football clubs are run than the members of Charlton life 🤔
CEO Joe Palmer was previously a director at Shakhtar Donetsk and COO with Sheff Wed. He’s been at AFCW since 2018 first as COO and then CEO.
Will Daniels recruitment and analytics manager worked as a sports trader for Spreadex since 2003. He joined AFCW as an analyst in 2019 and moved to his current role in 2021.
No idea who the senior scouts are.
Not wildly different from what we’re doing but the CEO has been in football for a lot longer and I assume the senior scouts have decent experience in the game too.
https://www.afcwimbledon.co.uk/news/2021/april/robbo-key-to-our-football-revolution/Q: So, a football committee has been created – but who sits on it?
Joe: There’s me, Robbo, our new recruitment and analytics manager, Will Daniels, and two senior scouts.
That structure didn’t include Jimenez/Slater although there’s no reason it couldn’t have included someone holding the purse strings. Varney would have been a proxy for them, as well as being otherwise involved. Chris Powell was at the heart of it.
The key there is balance and variety. Not having a manager/head coach is obviously a handicap.1 -
AFC Wimbledon started in 2002 as a Phoenix from the Ashes club in the 9th tier and are the first club started in the 21st century to achieve League status.
Diversity in business skills made it possible, combined with Football skills on their journey from the Combined Counties League-9th tier to the dizzy heights of League 1 and finally getting back to 250 yards from the stadium of Wimbledon fc.
A minor set back in League 2 but a great opportunity for Johnnie Jackson.
I admire the Dons trust that made it possible.8
