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Next manager - Ben Garner confirmed (p256)

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  • hoof_it_up_to_benty
    hoof_it_up_to_benty Posts: 22,441
    edited May 2022
    I would have liked Challinor from Stockport as manager but obviously won't happen. Interesting to see how County do in L2 next season.
  • 1968CAFC said:
    I am getting very fed up with our owner.
    he does not convince me at all with his ego driven bullshit and promises.
    Actions speak louder than words/Bullshit.👎👎
    What like saving the club when no one else had the bollocks or money to take on the crooks and the financial commitment … take on a club during a pandemic that was on its knees after years of assist stripping left us with a shell of a club ..these actions you mean … people have very short memories years and years of neglect not going to be sorted in 18 months 

    The first bit is true. The second part is a fallacy.

    Regardless of how many years of neglect the key part ie assembling a competitive football team is not overly complex if you or those around you know what you are doing and shouldn't take 18 months to sort out. 

    Wigan did it. Bolton too.

    All this "take time to turn around the years of damage" might hold water if it was a complex failing business and having to unwind unknown debts and derivative contracts etc but it's not. 

    Yes there might be off the field stuff that will take a while to enhance but that is not relevant to how long it should take to assemble a squad to compete in the third tier of English football if you have people who know what they're doing.

    It's not complicated as Sandgaard himself said.

    This illusion of undoing years of neglect is a complete self perpetuating myth.

    We had Cullen, Taylor, beliek, Bauer etc under Duchatelet albeit he was an utter wrong un.

    The problem in the main is we've been mismanaged from the top down with awful owners and poor managers and owners that have hindered half decent managers like Powell, Bowyer and (who knows even  Jackson).

    What neglect and danage is there to sort out beyond getting knowledgeable people in to identify, recruit and mould competitive 3rd division side?
    Exactly - you need the right people in charge.
  • Cafc43v3r
    Cafc43v3r Posts: 21,600
    1968CAFC said:
    I am getting very fed up with our owner.
    he does not convince me at all with his ego driven bullshit and promises.
    Actions speak louder than words/Bullshit.👎👎
    What like saving the club when no one else had the bollocks or money to take on the crooks and the financial commitment … take on a club during a pandemic that was on its knees after years of assist stripping left us with a shell of a club ..these actions you mean … people have very short memories years and years of neglect not going to be sorted in 18 months 

    The first bit is true. The second part is a fallacy.

    Regardless of how many years of neglect the key part ie assembling a competitive football team is not overly complex if you or those around you know what you are doing and shouldn't take 18 months to sort out. 

    Wigan did it. Bolton too.

    All this "take time to turn around the years of damage" might hold water if it was a complex failing business and having to unwind unknown debts and derivative contracts etc but it's not. 

    Yes there might be off the field stuff that will take a while to enhance but that is not relevant to how long it should take to assemble a squad to compete in the third tier of English football if you have people who know what they're doing.

    It's not complicated as Sandgaard himself said.

    This illusion of undoing years of neglect is a complete self perpetuating myth.

    We had Cullen, Taylor, beliek, Bauer etc under Duchatelet albeit he was an utter wrong un.

    The problem in the main is we've been mismanaged from the top down with awful owners and poor managers and owners that have hindered half decent managers like Powell, Bowyer and (who knows even  Jackson).

    What neglect and danage is there to sort out beyond getting knowledgeable people in to identify, recruit and mould competitive 3rd division side?
    If you even take out the "summer of Powell" to of our other promotion winnings teams of recentish times were put together very quickly.

    Illic, Mills, Youds, Bowen, Heaney, Bright, Mendonca (7)

    And

    Purrington, Cullen, Bielik, Pratley, Taylor, Parker (6)

    All joined after the previous season finished.  That's over half the teams that started the play off finals.

    In pure first team terms 4 transfer windows in we are arguably worse off than when we started. 

    The women's team, training ground investment, fan engagement is all nice to have but it doesn't really matter if we are stuck in the middle of league 1, does it? 
  • Uboat
    Uboat Posts: 12,195
    agim said:
    Cafc43v3r said:
    It's a difficult one for Beale. On the one hand he might well want to be a manager in his own right but, on the other, he is respected as a coach and part of the Gerrard team that might one day be managing Liverpool. He's probably on very good money too and given the average longevity of a manager, the chances are that he would be sacked by us a long time before he and Gerrard part company with each other and/or with Villa. 
    Klopp isn’t going anywhere anytime soon and has just signed a new contract. You’d think Liverpool would aim higher than Gerrard as well. 
    Liverpool need to aim higher than a former champions league winning captain, who has already won silverware as manager, that came through their youth system.  However us offering a job to someone that's never been a manager or played a professional game, partly because he "knows the club" is a sign of ambition and intent.

    :smile:
    One is Liverpool, arguably the biggest club in world football. The other is Charlton Athletic.

    Take Gerrard’s name away him and he’s won something in a two team league and finished mid-table with Villa. They can do a lot better. Irrelevant anyway as Klopp isn’t going anywhere for a long time. 
    Bit harsh. At Rangers he went the whole season unbeaten and only conceded 13 goals. To go 38 games unbeaten at any level of football is impressive. 

    I think Gerrard will turn out to be a very competent manager. 
    With or without Beale?

  • Todds_right_hook
    Todds_right_hook Posts: 10,880
    Cafc43v3r said:
    1968CAFC said:
    I am getting very fed up with our owner.
    he does not convince me at all with his ego driven bullshit and promises.
    Actions speak louder than words/Bullshit.👎👎
    What like saving the club when no one else had the bollocks or money to take on the crooks and the financial commitment … take on a club during a pandemic that was on its knees after years of assist stripping left us with a shell of a club ..these actions you mean … people have very short memories years and years of neglect not going to be sorted in 18 months 

    The first bit is true. The second part is a fallacy.

    Regardless of how many years of neglect the key part ie assembling a competitive football team is not overly complex if you or those around you know what you are doing and shouldn't take 18 months to sort out. 

    Wigan did it. Bolton too.

    All this "take time to turn around the years of damage" might hold water if it was a complex failing business and having to unwind unknown debts and derivative contracts etc but it's not. 

    Yes there might be off the field stuff that will take a while to enhance but that is not relevant to how long it should take to assemble a squad to compete in the third tier of English football if you have people who know what they're doing.

    It's not complicated as Sandgaard himself said.

    This illusion of undoing years of neglect is a complete self perpetuating myth.

    We had Cullen, Taylor, beliek, Bauer etc under Duchatelet albeit he was an utter wrong un.

    The problem in the main is we've been mismanaged from the top down with awful owners and poor managers and owners that have hindered half decent managers like Powell, Bowyer and (who knows even  Jackson).

    What neglect and danage is there to sort out beyond getting knowledgeable people in to identify, recruit and mould competitive 3rd division side?
    If you even take out the "summer of Powell" to of our other promotion winnings teams of recentish times were put together very quickly.

    Illic, Mills, Youds, Bowen, Heaney, Bright, Mendonca (7)

    And

    Purrington, Cullen, Bielik, Pratley, Taylor, Parker (6)

    All joined after the previous season finished.  That's over half the teams that started the play off finals.

    In pure first team terms 4 transfer windows in we are arguably worse off than when we started. 

    The women's team, training ground investment, fan engagement is all nice to have but it doesn't really matter if we are stuck in the middle of league 1, does it? 
    Did mills and youds sign in the summer or January. Not arguing against what you are saying, it's more to do with my ageing brain
  • ricky_otto
    ricky_otto Posts: 22,600
    Cafc43v3r said:
    1968CAFC said:
    I am getting very fed up with our owner.
    he does not convince me at all with his ego driven bullshit and promises.
    Actions speak louder than words/Bullshit.👎👎
    What like saving the club when no one else had the bollocks or money to take on the crooks and the financial commitment … take on a club during a pandemic that was on its knees after years of assist stripping left us with a shell of a club ..these actions you mean … people have very short memories years and years of neglect not going to be sorted in 18 months 

    The first bit is true. The second part is a fallacy.

    Regardless of how many years of neglect the key part ie assembling a competitive football team is not overly complex if you or those around you know what you are doing and shouldn't take 18 months to sort out. 

    Wigan did it. Bolton too.

    All this "take time to turn around the years of damage" might hold water if it was a complex failing business and having to unwind unknown debts and derivative contracts etc but it's not. 

    Yes there might be off the field stuff that will take a while to enhance but that is not relevant to how long it should take to assemble a squad to compete in the third tier of English football if you have people who know what they're doing.

    It's not complicated as Sandgaard himself said.

    This illusion of undoing years of neglect is a complete self perpetuating myth.

    We had Cullen, Taylor, beliek, Bauer etc under Duchatelet albeit he was an utter wrong un.

    The problem in the main is we've been mismanaged from the top down with awful owners and poor managers and owners that have hindered half decent managers like Powell, Bowyer and (who knows even  Jackson).

    What neglect and danage is there to sort out beyond getting knowledgeable people in to identify, recruit and mould competitive 3rd division side?
    If you even take out the "summer of Powell" to of our other promotion winnings teams of recentish times were put together very quickly.

    Illic, Mills, Youds, Bowen, Heaney, Bright, Mendonca (7)

    And

    Purrington, Cullen, Bielik, Pratley, Taylor, Parker (6)

    All joined after the previous season finished.  That's over half the teams that started the play off finals.

    In pure first team terms 4 transfer windows in we are arguably worse off than when we started. 

    The women's team, training ground investment, fan engagement is all nice to have but it doesn't really matter if we are stuck in the middle of league 1, does it? 
    Did mills and youds sign in the summer or January. Not arguing against what you are saying, it's more to do with my ageing brain
    I actually think they signed in March.
  • paulfox
    paulfox Posts: 2,356
    DubaiCAFC said:
    paulfox said:
    There you go, Stuart Pearce steps down as West Ham coach, it’s got to be him!!!!!😬🤣
    I have heard lots of podcast ex players playing under him, and ever single one, have said he is the worst manager they have played under. Changing rooms ran riot, no man management, tactical unaware, lacked personality! I really hope not
    I think seeing him from the outside as manager, we could have guessed that may be the situation, I’d be gutted if some how my joking ended up as fact. Loved him as a player, but not having him as a manager.
  • FishCostaFortune
    FishCostaFortune Posts: 10,773
    edited May 2022
    1968CAFC said:
    I am getting very fed up with our owner.
    he does not convince me at all with his ego driven bullshit and promises.
    Actions speak louder than words/Bullshit.👎👎
    What like saving the club when no one else had the bollocks or money to take on the crooks and the financial commitment … take on a club during a pandemic that was on its knees after years of assist stripping left us with a shell of a club ..these actions you mean … people have very short memories years and years of neglect not going to be sorted in 18 months 

    The first bit is true. The second part is a fallacy.

    Regardless of how many years of neglect the key part ie assembling a competitive football team is not overly complex if you or those around you know what you are doing and shouldn't take 18 months to sort out. 

    Wigan did it. Bolton too.

    All this "take time to turn around the years of damage" might hold water if it was a complex failing business and having to unwind unknown debts and derivative contracts etc but it's not. 

    Yes there might be off the field stuff that will take a while to enhance but that is not relevant to how long it should take to assemble a squad to compete in the third tier of English football if you have people who know what they're doing.

    It's not complicated as Sandgaard himself said.

    This illusion of undoing years of neglect is a complete self perpetuating myth.

    We had Cullen, Taylor, beliek, Bauer etc under Duchatelet albeit he was an utter wrong un.

    The problem in the main is we've been mismanaged from the top down with awful owners and poor managers and owners that have hindered half decent managers like Powell, Bowyer and (who knows even  Jackson).

    What neglect and danage is there to sort out beyond getting knowledgeable people in to identify, recruit and mould competitive 3rd division side?
    Don’t necessarily disagree with a lot of the sentiment here Rodney. 

    However I am not sure if we can really say that building a competitive football team is overly complex or not. You mention Wigan and Bolton as successes, but neglect to mention all the many other teams who have not been. If there is a simple easy solution, why is it that so many teams year after year, even those with financial backing, or are well run, have not managed to achieve the goals they wanted?

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  • Swisdom
    Swisdom Posts: 14,977
    It’s not just the team that needs to recover from its neglect.  The fact we have pretty much a skeleton staff in the background doesn’t help the professionalism of the club sometimes and that’s something else it gets lambasted for.

    it is being addressed I believe but it’s not an overnight fix
  • The Red Robin
    The Red Robin Posts: 26,126
    Swisdom said:
    It’s not just the team that needs to recover from its neglect.  The fact we have pretty much a skeleton staff in the background doesn’t help the professionalism of the club sometimes and that’s something else it gets lambasted for.

    it is being addressed I believe but it’s not an overnight fix
    He’s owned the club for almost two years now. 
  • RodneyCharltonTrotta
    RodneyCharltonTrotta Posts: 14,827
    edited May 2022
    1968CAFC said:
    I am getting very fed up with our owner.
    he does not convince me at all with his ego driven bullshit and promises.
    Actions speak louder than words/Bullshit.👎👎
    What like saving the club when no one else had the bollocks or money to take on the crooks and the financial commitment … take on a club during a pandemic that was on its knees after years of assist stripping left us with a shell of a club ..these actions you mean … people have very short memories years and years of neglect not going to be sorted in 18 months 

    The first bit is true. The second part is a fallacy.

    Regardless of how many years of neglect the key part ie assembling a competitive football team is not overly complex if you or those around you know what you are doing and shouldn't take 18 months to sort out. 

    Wigan did it. Bolton too.

    All this "take time to turn around the years of damage" might hold water if it was a complex failing business and having to unwind unknown debts and derivative contracts etc but it's not. 

    Yes there might be off the field stuff that will take a while to enhance but that is not relevant to how long it should take to assemble a squad to compete in the third tier of English football if you have people who know what they're doing.

    It's not complicated as Sandgaard himself said.

    This illusion of undoing years of neglect is a complete self perpetuating myth.

    We had Cullen, Taylor, beliek, Bauer etc under Duchatelet albeit he was an utter wrong un.

    The problem in the main is we've been mismanaged from the top down with awful owners and poor managers and owners that have hindered half decent managers like Powell, Bowyer and (who knows even  Jackson).

    What neglect and danage is there to sort out beyond getting knowledgeable people in to identify, recruit and mould competitive 3rd division side?
    Don’t necessarily disagree with a lot of the sentiment here Rodney. 

    However I am not sure if we can really say that building a competitive football team is overly complex or not. You mention Wigan and Bolton as successes, but neglect to mention all the many other teams who have not been. If there is a simple easy solution, why is it that so many teams year after year, even those with financial backing, or are well run, have not managed to achieve the goals they wanted?


    We had a relatively successful campaign under Duchatelet with play off victory and a hugely successful one under Jiminez and Co for the 101 points season despite both ownerships being detrimental for the overall well being of the club.

    They did get the football right at points despite the unignorable abundance of negatives.


    Ironically whilst TS may be good for the overall well being of the club it is countered considerably if we don't get the fundamental aspect ie men's first team right. 

    Agree it is not easy but it is about giving yourself the best chance of success.

    One key aspect perhaps being having experienced and knowledgeable people in place setting and driving the football strategy. We currently have a significant gap in this respect and therefore making the challenge unnecessarily more difficult.
  • ShootersHillGuru
    ShootersHillGuru Posts: 50,619
    1968CAFC said:
    I am getting very fed up with our owner.
    he does not convince me at all with his ego driven bullshit and promises.
    Actions speak louder than words/Bullshit.👎👎
    100% agree with this. What exactly apart from saving the club from oblivion and pouring £8 million a year into a bottomless pit has this Roman ego driven bullshitter ever done for us ? 
  • Solidgone
    Solidgone Posts: 10,206
    edited May 2022
    Swisdom said:
    It’s not just the team that needs to recover from its neglect.  The fact we have pretty much a skeleton staff in the background doesn’t help the professionalism of the club sometimes and that’s something else it gets lambasted for.

    it is being addressed I believe but it’s not an overnight fix
    He’s owned the club for almost two years now. 
    Yeah, and we should at least have made a top four place in the premiership. We are fucked! ;)
  • Redrobo
    Redrobo Posts: 11,330
    Swisdom said:
    It’s not just the team that needs to recover from its neglect.  The fact we have pretty much a skeleton staff in the background doesn’t help the professionalism of the club sometimes and that’s something else it gets lambasted for.

    it is being addressed I believe but it’s not an overnight fix
    He’s owned the club for almost two years now. 
    A year and a half and has done a remarkable job so far, but still a lot to be done to restore our Club.
    Really hoping we can put a good side together so we don’t have to drag the negativity along.
  • Redrobo said:
    Swisdom said:
    It’s not just the team that needs to recover from its neglect.  The fact we have pretty much a skeleton staff in the background doesn’t help the professionalism of the club sometimes and that’s something else it gets lambasted for.

    it is being addressed I believe but it’s not an overnight fix
    He’s owned the club for almost two years now. 
    A year and a half and has done a remarkable job so far, but still a lot to be done to restore our Club.
    Really hoping we can put a good side together so we don’t have to drag the negativity along.
    I don't see how he has done a remarkable job at all. But I do look at the men's first team as the priority indicator of the club's progress and everything else is secondary. 

    But I appreciate others look at broader aspects.
  • Richard J
    Richard J Posts: 8,031
    Iir addick1956 said:
    Cafc43v3r said:
    1968CAFC said:
    I am getting very fed up with our owner.
    he does not convince me at all with his ego driven bullshit and promises.
    Actions speak louder than words/Bullshit.👎👎
    What like saving the club when no one else had the bollocks or money to take on the crooks and the financial commitment … take on a club during a pandemic that was on its knees after years of assist stripping left us with a shell of a club ..these actions you mean … people have very short memories years and years of neglect not going to be sorted in 18 months 

    The first bit is true. The second part is a fallacy.

    Regardless of how many years of neglect the key part ie assembling a competitive football team is not overly complex if you or those around you know what you are doing and shouldn't take 18 months to sort out. 

    Wigan did it. Bolton too.

    All this "take time to turn around the years of damage" might hold water if it was a complex failing business and having to unwind unknown debts and derivative contracts etc but it's not. 

    Yes there might be off the field stuff that will take a while to enhance but that is not relevant to how long it should take to assemble a squad to compete in the third tier of English football if you have people who know what they're doing.

    It's not complicated as Sandgaard himself said.

    This illusion of undoing years of neglect is a complete self perpetuating myth.

    We had Cullen, Taylor, beliek, Bauer etc under Duchatelet albeit he was an utter wrong un.

    The problem in the main is we've been mismanaged from the top down with awful owners and poor managers and owners that have hindered half decent managers like Powell, Bowyer and (who knows even  Jackson).

    What neglect and danage is there to sort out beyond getting knowledgeable people in to identify, recruit and mould competitive 3rd division side?
    If you even take out the "summer of Powell" to of our other promotion winnings teams of recentish times were put together very quickly.

    Illic, Mills, Youds, Bowen, Heaney, Bright, Mendonca (7)

    And

    Purrington, Cullen, Bielik, Pratley, Taylor, Parker (6)

    All joined after the previous season finished.  That's over half the teams that started the play off finals.

    In pure first team terms 4 transfer windows in we are arguably worse off than when we started. 

    The women's team, training ground investment, fan engagement is all nice to have but it doesn't really matter if we are stuck in the middle of league 1, does it? 
    Did mills and youds sign in the summer or January. Not arguing against what you are saying, it's more to do with my ageing brain
    I actually think they signed in March.
    Illic and maybe Heaney too. Youds was Dec time I think
    This was pre transfer windows.

    Iirc Mills and Youds did sign in March for the late push. 
  • Stu_of_Kunming
    Stu_of_Kunming Posts: 17,116
    Redrobo said:
    Swisdom said:
    It’s not just the team that needs to recover from its neglect.  The fact we have pretty much a skeleton staff in the background doesn’t help the professionalism of the club sometimes and that’s something else it gets lambasted for.

    it is being addressed I believe but it’s not an overnight fix
    He’s owned the club for almost two years now. 
    A year and a half and has done a remarkable job so far, but still a lot to be done to restore our Club.
    Really hoping we can put a good side together so we don’t have to drag the negativity along.
    First team has gone backwards 
    None of the pie in the sky outside revenue has materialised 
    Reduced ST numbers 
    Free ticket fiasco
    Ridiculous staff turnover across the club 


    I’m not sure how the job has been remarkable, as someone living abroad I love the much improved CAFCTV, but how many people will actually care about that? 
  • soapboxsam
    soapboxsam Posts: 23,229
    edited May 2022
    How we need a youngish intelligence Manager/coach to come along with a strategy to compete in League 1 while developing a style of play that can be functional when needs be and flair when possible and build a club. 

    That can only happen if Thomas Sandgaard allows the new man to have the casting vote on incoming players and backs the guy with support. Also Thomas needs to as well!

    The crowd at the ground or on social media need to accept the 5 year plan as it was presented by Thomas when he first took over was bravado and totally unrealistic.

    I believe Thomas Sandgaard is a decent man with an ego; I'm not into rock music, (now) but will put up with that malarkey as long as the football side is well run and we see a competitive side who play with an edge. 

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  • JamesSeed
    JamesSeed Posts: 17,380
    DubaiCAFC said:
    paulfox said:
    There you go, Stuart Pearce steps down as West Ham coach, it’s got to be him!!!!!😬🤣
    I have heard lots of podcast ex players playing under him, and ever single one, have said he is the worst manager they have played under. Changing rooms ran riot, no man management, tactical unaware, lacked personality! I really hope not
    He was a massive Lurkers fan. No way would he put up with Sandgaard’s pomp rock. 
  • JohnnyH2
    JohnnyH2 Posts: 5,342
    Redrobo said:
    Swisdom said:
    It’s not just the team that needs to recover from its neglect.  The fact we have pretty much a skeleton staff in the background doesn’t help the professionalism of the club sometimes and that’s something else it gets lambasted for.

    it is being addressed I believe but it’s not an overnight fix
    He’s owned the club for almost two years now. 
    A year and a half and has done a remarkable job so far, but still a lot to be done to restore our Club.
    Really hoping we can put a good side together so we don’t have to drag the negativity along.
    What has so far been remarkable in the job done so far?

    He will always get huge credit for saving the club. In no way am I comparing him to theses owners but the same was also said of Fryer, Slater/Jimmenz and RD in terms of saving the club
  • arny23394
    arny23394 Posts: 1,180
    Redrobo said:
    Swisdom said:
    It’s not just the team that needs to recover from its neglect.  The fact we have pretty much a skeleton staff in the background doesn’t help the professionalism of the club sometimes and that’s something else it gets lambasted for.

    it is being addressed I believe but it’s not an overnight fix
    He’s owned the club for almost two years now. 
    A year and a half and has done a remarkable job so far, but still a lot to be done to restore our Club.
    Really hoping we can put a good side together so we don’t have to drag the negativity along.
    On what planet has he done a remarkable job? 

    Fair play to him for buying us and putting his hard earned money in, but really, he’s doing a shit job - we just finished in the bottom half of league one ffs.
  • FAVADDICK
    FAVADDICK Posts: 584
    Remarkable job 

    4th manager is 2 years 
    One of the worse seasons going 
    Separated from stadium and training ground
    No manager 
    Poor appointments behind scenes ( roddy etc) 

    Yup remarkable job 👏
  • CafcWest
    CafcWest Posts: 6,167
    FAVADDICK said:
    Remarkable job 

    4th manager is 2 years 
    One of the worse seasons going 
    Separated from stadium and training ground
    No manager 
    Poor appointments behind scenes ( roddy etc) 

    Yup remarkable job 👏
    And still no fans wi-fi switched back on!
  • RonnieMoore
    RonnieMoore Posts: 4,496
    FAVADDICK said:
    Remarkable job 

    4th manager is 2 years 
    One of the worse seasons going 
    Separated from stadium and training ground
    No manager 
    Poor appointments behind scenes ( roddy etc) 

    Yup remarkable job 👏
    Bowyer left on his own accord .. 



  • Oggy Red
    Oggy Red Posts: 44,954
    The knives are out for poor old Thomas, I see.
    He's a newbie at this game, that's pretty obvious, seemingly confusing running a football club with running a business.


    However, one thing really surprises me: when he was in the process of buying the club, doing due dilligence, etc ....... he told us he went to the best financial advisors in London, people who'd been long involved with football club finance and had built a fine reputation doing so.

    I can't quite understand why he didn't also do that with the football club side of things?
    I know he trusted Ged Roddy - but he needed to talk to other experienced CEOs, chairmen, etc ......maybe he did, but he does seem to have followed his own path regardless.

    Often the best starting point is working to the tried and tested, leaning on the experience of staff that know the job inside out, keeping things simple.
    Maybe he did but saw too much that needed reorganising?

    At this stage, I don't doubt his good intentions.
  • BR7_addick
    BR7_addick Posts: 10,210
    If you’re gonna do a bullet point analysis of TS’s performance as owner at least be grown up enough to include “spent 8m of his own money to keep us afloat” as well, let’s not get all agendafied.