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Tactics/ football strategy thread
Comments
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I posted this article in the Sessegnon thread as it relates to him probably playing a large proportion of his games at left back this season:
https://runningtheshowblog.wordpress.com/2021/04/18/tactical-analysis-inverted-full-backs-wrong-footed-tactics/
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If any of you buy the My Only Desire magazine, I've written a helpful Garnerball explainer in the edition that's just come out7
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Not much to add but always hilarious watching Richard Keogh trying to play out from the back for Derby. I swear every time I watched them he'd give a goal away.cabbles said:
Doesn’t mean they can pull it off though. On the face of it we have better players this year and I think we are heading in the right direction, but I truly believe that a possession based game, out from the back is for the top, top players. It requires a very high level of consistent movement and concentration. We may be building that under Garner, but as much as you point out the individuals who we have that could potentially deliver in such a style, they’re all playing in league one for a reason. It’s not just us I’m referring to, more of a general observation that the lower down the leagues you go, the harder it is to pull off such footballCafc43v3r said:
I really don't understand this argument/point of view at all.cabbles said:Certainly feels like wide players have been phased out for a long time now. I recall Lyle Taylor would take up excellent wide positions in our promotion season. Pulling players out of position and thus creating space for oncoming midfielders.Obviously no one bar Sean Dyche seems to play 4-4-2 anymore, so the old school winger certainly feels like a thing of the past, and width is, as mentioned above, provided by attacking full backs.
I’m not as into football as I was when I was younger, by that I mean watching the Prem, CL and knowing who all the up & coming players are, which means I am in a similar to boat re: modern day tactics as @RodneyCharltonTrotta, however, at our level, I think players are okay, but not necessarily good enough to adapt and adopt different formations and styles of play.Playing it out from the back is a great example. You have to have very good players, proper movement and players good and comfortable with the ball at their feet. This sort of football I believe belongs in the upper echelons of the game, and if I think back to last season, we made a lot of rudimentary mistakes, sometimes the same ones several times over. Now, the team may be shaping up to be better this year, but if playing it out from the back is our preferred approach (going by what I’ve read on here), then it comes with big risks.Overall I’m a great believer in top players being able to play adaptive and expansive styles, but the lower you go, you need to simplify it.
It's get the ball, keep the ball, create a chance. That is it. It's not complicated is it.
If we subscribe to the fact Garnerball is some complicated alien concept that's far to confusing to our mear motal players. Let's have a quick stock take.
3 players from Swindon. Obviously comfortable with it.
Dobson: Westham academy. That famous school of kick and rush.
Aneke: Aresenal academy, offered the chance to go to Barcelona.......
Inniss: Palace academy under Garner.
Fraser: a stand out player in MK Dons kick it and hope for the best team?
CBT: a cat 1 academy graduate are producing really good technical players.
Charlie Kirk: Crewe are the team John Beck wished he managed.
O'Connell: Obviously signed for his Pearce style wrestling skills, second only to Brock Lesner in that regard. Or not.
JFC: part of Poyet seniors Brighton revolution, not good enough for the prem but...
I could go on but there is no way on God's green earth this style of play is too complicated or alien to them.0 -
Have it!…..kicking the ball aimlessly out of bounds!0
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From watching on Saturday I would say it was often Clare that would pick up those kind of positions while Sessegnon played more like a traditional overlapping full back until he got into the final third where he would cut in on his right.Callumcafc said:I posted this article in the Sessegnon thread as it relates to him probably playing a large proportion of his games at left back this season:
https://runningtheshowblog.wordpress.com/2021/04/18/tactical-analysis-inverted-full-backs-wrong-footed-tactics/I think Clare really suits the role as well with his experience as both a central midfielder and right sided centre back.0 -
Callumcafc said:I posted this article in the Sessegnon thread as it relates to him probably playing a large proportion of his games at left back this season:
https://runningtheshowblog.wordpress.com/2021/04/18/tactical-analysis-inverted-full-backs-wrong-footed-tactics/
Any RB that ever plays LB struggles for Cafc. If you are two footed no Problem but I don't get the feeling that Steven Sessegnon has that much confidence in his left foot to swing over a cross from a wide position.
Plus I remember the vastly talented Joe Gomez struggle at LB for Cafc in the only match when he covered there, he just looked awkward trying to tackle with his left foot, the game was at the valley.
Inverted full backs make it sound clever but the difference in playing Shaw at LB compared to Trippier for England at LB meant we lost all our attacking ability with Shaw being a great attacking full back on his natural side. At every level of football I watch including the Kent League and academy football unless it a mismatch in class the team with the Right and Left back playing on their correct sides look more competent and assured and are a big assert in width and attacking football.
Please inform if you can give examples of Charlton playing a RB at LB and it being successful? We got away with it with Solly a couple of time but he looked awkward.1 -
It’s not that I don’t think teams can do it, I just think it’s become a fashionable way of playing, and you need a lot of concentration and ultimately pretty decent players. As you mention, there are a lot of players like Keogh at our level. I don’t know how comfortable the likes of Lavelle and Inniss may be playing it out from the back and how mobile and to what extent our players can create the space to make it work.ValleyGary said:
Not much to add but always hilarious watching Richard Keogh trying to play out from the back for Derby. I swear every time I watched them he'd give a goal away.cabbles said:
Doesn’t mean they can pull it off though. On the face of it we have better players this year and I think we are heading in the right direction, but I truly believe that a possession based game, out from the back is for the top, top players. It requires a very high level of consistent movement and concentration. We may be building that under Garner, but as much as you point out the individuals who we have that could potentially deliver in such a style, they’re all playing in league one for a reason. It’s not just us I’m referring to, more of a general observation that the lower down the leagues you go, the harder it is to pull off such footballCafc43v3r said:
I really don't understand this argument/point of view at all.cabbles said:Certainly feels like wide players have been phased out for a long time now. I recall Lyle Taylor would take up excellent wide positions in our promotion season. Pulling players out of position and thus creating space for oncoming midfielders.Obviously no one bar Sean Dyche seems to play 4-4-2 anymore, so the old school winger certainly feels like a thing of the past, and width is, as mentioned above, provided by attacking full backs.
I’m not as into football as I was when I was younger, by that I mean watching the Prem, CL and knowing who all the up & coming players are, which means I am in a similar to boat re: modern day tactics as @RodneyCharltonTrotta, however, at our level, I think players are okay, but not necessarily good enough to adapt and adopt different formations and styles of play.Playing it out from the back is a great example. You have to have very good players, proper movement and players good and comfortable with the ball at their feet. This sort of football I believe belongs in the upper echelons of the game, and if I think back to last season, we made a lot of rudimentary mistakes, sometimes the same ones several times over. Now, the team may be shaping up to be better this year, but if playing it out from the back is our preferred approach (going by what I’ve read on here), then it comes with big risks.Overall I’m a great believer in top players being able to play adaptive and expansive styles, but the lower you go, you need to simplify it.
It's get the ball, keep the ball, create a chance. That is it. It's not complicated is it.
If we subscribe to the fact Garnerball is some complicated alien concept that's far to confusing to our mear motal players. Let's have a quick stock take.
3 players from Swindon. Obviously comfortable with it.
Dobson: Westham academy. That famous school of kick and rush.
Aneke: Aresenal academy, offered the chance to go to Barcelona.......
Inniss: Palace academy under Garner.
Fraser: a stand out player in MK Dons kick it and hope for the best team?
CBT: a cat 1 academy graduate are producing really good technical players.
Charlie Kirk: Crewe are the team John Beck wished he managed.
O'Connell: Obviously signed for his Pearce style wrestling skills, second only to Brock Lesner in that regard. Or not.
JFC: part of Poyet seniors Brighton revolution, not good enough for the prem but...
I could go on but there is no way on God's green earth this style of play is too complicated or alien to them.If it’s our preferred approach then so be it and I think everyone should give Garner the chance to have a crack at it, but I have my reservations.MK Dons did it very well last season at our place, so it can be done1 -
Yes, it requires the implementation of two little known secrets of peak Barcelona’s philosophy…Cafc43v3r said:
Is it really that complicated?Leuth said:If any of you buy the My Only Desire magazine, I've written a helpful Garnerball explainer in the edition that's just come out
Press high and pass well.1 -
You mean the same way Madrid and Hungary played in the 1950s?Scoham said:
Yes, it requires the implementation of two little known secrets of peak Barcelona’s philosophy…Cafc43v3r said:
Is it really that complicated?Leuth said:If any of you buy the My Only Desire magazine, I've written a helpful Garnerball explainer in the edition that's just come out
Press high and pass well.
Garnerball, as much as I actually want us to play like that, is not some sort of revolutionary tactics, system way, of playing is it?
The way some people are talking about it is akin to when Wenger got the arsenal gig or Walter Winterbottom got the England job.
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Are there? You’ll have to give me some examples.Cafc43v3r said:
You mean the same way Madrid and Hungary played in the 1950s?Scoham said:
Yes, it requires the implementation of two little known secrets of peak Barcelona’s philosophy…Cafc43v3r said:
Is it really that complicated?Leuth said:If any of you buy the My Only Desire magazine, I've written a helpful Garnerball explainer in the edition that's just come out
Press high and pass well.
Garnerball, as much as I actually want us to play like that, is not some sort of revolutionary tactics, system way, of playing is it?
The way some people are talking about it is akin to when Wenger got the arsenal gig or Walter Winterbottom got the England job.
Ive just mostly seen people either already bemoan that we will be ‘passing it around the back to much like Karl Robinson’, or excited to see a different brand of football to what we’ve recently been served being played down the valley.Not really seen anyone claim this is some revolutionary new football tactic never seen before.0 -
The younger element of club’s fanbases do this with new managers. We’re just the latest in a long line.
Kloppball, Bielsaball, Potterball, Gerrardball…
It doesn’t really mean anything and is best ignored.2 -
No, and that was kind of my not so serious point. I agree it's not revolutionary but some still see it as a style that is difficult to get right at our level. Maybe true to an extent but other clubs have made it work, it comes down to getting recruitment right (including managers and coaches).Cafc43v3r said:
You mean the same way Madrid and Hungary played in the 1950s?Scoham said:
Yes, it requires the implementation of two little known secrets of peak Barcelona’s philosophy…Cafc43v3r said:
Is it really that complicated?Leuth said:If any of you buy the My Only Desire magazine, I've written a helpful Garnerball explainer in the edition that's just come out
Press high and pass well.
Garnerball, as much as I actually want us to play like that, is not some sort of revolutionary tactics, system way, of playing is it?
The way some people are talking about it is akin to when Wenger got the arsenal gig or Walter Winterbottom got the England job.
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They have I have seen some people complain that its far to complicated and alien that our poor little players will have their little minds blown and want a good old 442.FishCostaFortune said:
Are there? You’ll have to give me some examples.Cafc43v3r said:
You mean the same way Madrid and Hungary played in the 1950s?Scoham said:
Yes, it requires the implementation of two little known secrets of peak Barcelona’s philosophy…Cafc43v3r said:
Is it really that complicated?Leuth said:If any of you buy the My Only Desire magazine, I've written a helpful Garnerball explainer in the edition that's just come out
Press high and pass well.
Garnerball, as much as I actually want us to play like that, is not some sort of revolutionary tactics, system way, of playing is it?
The way some people are talking about it is akin to when Wenger got the arsenal gig or Walter Winterbottom got the England job.
Ive just mostly seen people either already bemoan that we will be ‘passing it around the back to much like Karl Robinson’, or excited to see a different brand of football to what we’ve recently been served being played down the valley.Not really seen anyone claim this is some revolutionary new football tactic never seen before.0 -
That’s great PR for him and wonderfully alluring for the easily persuaded - but the reality is they finished 6th and if not for a strong late run of form of four wins from five would have missed the Play Offs.Scoham said:A reminder of Swindon’s stats last season which give a feel of the type of football Garner will be looking to play:
Indeed, they were only two points ahead of 9th placed Tranmere at the end of the season.
If we want to talk stats then also worth noting that no other team in the top ten conceded more than the 54 goals Swindon let in - and a home record of 9-7-7 won’t go down well at The Valley this season either.
I wish the guy nothing but the best but Charlton in League One ain’t Swindon in League Two, this is a very different ball game with completely different expectations.2 -
He also had to make a squad in a very short amount of time with no real pre-season together last year, to have that challenge and then the output he got is encouraging especially as he's had a full pre-season with us and majority of the squadOrmiston_Addick said:
That’s great PR for him and wonderfully alluring for the easily persuaded - but the reality is they finished 6th and if not for a strong late run of form of four wins from five would have missed the Play Offs.Scoham said:A reminder of Swindon’s stats last season which give a feel of the type of football Garner will be looking to play:
Indeed, they were only two points ahead of 9th placed Tranmere at the end of the season.
If we want to talk stats then also worth noting that no other team in the top ten conceded more than the 54 goals Swindon let in - and a home record of 9-7-7 won’t go down well at The Valley this season either.
I wish the guy nothing but the best but Charlton in League One ain’t Swindon in League Two, this is a very different ball game with completely different expectations.
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Ormiston_Addick said:
That’s great PR for him and wonderfully alluring for the easily persuaded - but the reality is they finished 6th and if not for a strong late run of form of four wins from five would have missed the Play Offs.Scoham said:A reminder of Swindon’s stats last season which give a feel of the type of football Garner will be looking to play:
Indeed, they were only two points ahead of 9th placed Tranmere at the end of the season.
If we want to talk stats then also worth noting that no other team in the top ten conceded more than the 54 goals Swindon let in - and a home record of 9-7-7 won’t go down well at The Valley this season either.
I wish the guy nothing but the best but Charlton in League One ain’t Swindon in League Two, this is a very different ball game with completely different expectations.
In football, form comes and goes. If Swindon hadn't lost 3 in 5 prior, they wouldn't have needed those four wins to make the playoffs.
While they were only two points ahead of Tranmere in 9th, they were also only three points off of automatic promotion. Depends which way up or down the table you want to look. Without that wobble in April, they could've been promoted automatically.
And although they conceded the most goals in the top 10, their overall goal difference (+23) was the third best in the league behind Forest Green (1st, +31) and Exeter (2nd, +24).2 -
They were also only 3 points off automatic promotion and that could come down to a few mistakes in a defeat by a single goal.Ormiston_Addick said:
That’s great PR for him and wonderfully alluring for the easily persuaded - but the reality is they finished 6th and if not for a strong late run of form of four wins from five would have missed the Play Offs.Scoham said:A reminder of Swindon’s stats last season which give a feel of the type of football Garner will be looking to play:
Indeed, they were only two points ahead of 9th placed Tranmere at the end of the season.
If we want to talk stats then also worth noting that no other team in the top ten conceded more than the 54 goals Swindon let in - and a home record of 9-7-7 won’t go down well at The Valley this season either.
I wish the guy nothing but the best but Charlton in League One ain’t Swindon in League Two, this is a very different ball game with completely different expectations.
I don't think it's a big stretch to think he could learn from his time at Swindon and with different players we're not likely to get exactly the same outcomes as Swindon
I'll be impressed if we're the top goalscorers in the league while regularly dominating possession, it would be a step forward from the football we've seen over the last couple of years.2 -
That interview worries me a bit. Pep can buy players to fit what he needs. Money no object. I strongly believe at our level with our resources you play a system that best suits what you have and what you can get. The article quotes reputable coaches Garner worked with and he says he didn't agree with their football philosophy. He says he doesn't watch other styles he doesn't like?Scoham said:
I just can't see much improvement on last season as I think the owner has made a similar mistake. I really want to be proven wrong. For me, everything rests on Garner and I hope he rams my doubts down my throat.0 - Sponsored links:
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Win the midfield and you will win the game more often than not. If they put 5 in there put 6 in there, always outnumber never get outnumbered0
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Looking forward to seeing Garner-ball at home tomorrow. I’m finding it very interesting watching Clare this season, definitely not being used as a traditional full back. Noticed against Accrington an interesting rotation when we are playing out from the back Clare often comes central with the right central midfielder (Morgan) moving out to the right flankNabySarr said:
From watching on Saturday I would say it was often Clare that would pick up those kind of positions while Sessegnon played more like a traditional overlapping full back until he got into the final third where he would cut in on his right.Callumcafc said:I posted this article in the Sessegnon thread as it relates to him probably playing a large proportion of his games at left back this season:
https://runningtheshowblog.wordpress.com/2021/04/18/tactical-analysis-inverted-full-backs-wrong-footed-tactics/I think Clare really suits the role as well with his experience as both a central midfielder and right sided centre back.1 -
Charlton xG and xA numbers so far this season (via Opta) (League games only)
Accrington 2.63 - 1.14 Charlton
Charlton 1.60 - 1.13 Derby
Sheff Wed 0.72 - 0.64 Charlton
Charlton 2.68 - 0.51 Plymouth
Goals scored: 8
Expected goals: 6.1
Goals conceded: 4
Expected goals: 5.0
Stockley xG: 1.5
Blackett-Taylor xG: 1.2
Rak-Sakyi xG: 0.8
Kirk xG: 0.7
Fraser xG: 0.5
Morgan xG: 0.4
Leaburn xG: 0.3
McGrandles xG: 0.2
Jaiyesimi xG: 0.2
Clare xG: 0.1
Payne xG: 0.1
Morgan xA: 0.6
Payne xA: 0.5
Sessegnon xA: 0.5
Kirk xA: 0.4
Blackett-Taylor xA: 0.3
Fraser xA: 0.3
Jaiyesimi xA: 0.2
Clare xA: 0.2
Dobson xA: 0.1
Stockley xA: 0.1
Rak-Sakyi xA: 0.1
Leaburn xA: 0.1
xG+xA per 90:
Blackett-Taylor 0.55
Stockley 0.43
Kirk 0.41
Jaiyesimi 0.40
Morgan 0.26
Fraser 0.23
Sessegnon: 0.20
Clare 0.07
Dobson 0.03
O'Connell 0.02
Clayden 0.01
Inniss 0.010 -
Opta also has an xGOT (xG On Target) stat which helps to identify players that are regularly hitting the target at a rate higher than the average. If your xGOT number is higher than your xG number, you are getting more shots on target than the stats would anticipate (sign of a good striker?). Conversely if your xGOT number is lower than xG, you're being wasteful.
This stat can also be helpful for rating goalkeeper performance by removing all the fluff of off-target shots.
Here are Charlton's xGOT numbers so far:
Accrington 2.64 - 1.76 Charlton
Charlton 1.57 - 0.38 Derby
Sheff Wed 0.52 - 0.20 Charlton
Charlton 3.24 - 0.91 Plymouth
Goals scored: 8
xG On Target: 6.8
Goals conceded: 4
xG On Target: 4.5
(Wollacott has prevented 0.5 goals so far, 6th best in the league)
xGOT-xG (positive is more clinical, negative is more wasteful):
Stockley: +0.2
Leaburn: +0.8
Blackett-Taylor: -0.2
Rak-Sakyi: +0.1
Fraser: +0.4
Clare: +0.5
Morgan: -0.1
Kirk: -0.6
O'Connell: 0.10
