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A shared ownership model for Charlton?
Comments
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I did. I don't really care and it wasn't an amazing amount, in the hundreds, but I didn't get it back so must have lost it. I did get a certificate. Well two as I bought two lots, one for my younger brother.3
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Aren't you thinking of the share scheme?MuttleyCAFC said:I did. I don't really care and it wasn't an amazing amount, in the hundreds, but I didn't get it back so must have lost it. I did get a certificate. Well two as I bought two lots, one for my younger brother.
The VIP had benefits, and the money was returned, whereas shareholders got nothing back4 -
Maybe it was the share scheme, It was a long time ago.
I genuinely thought it was the VIP. I remember the certificates although I have lost them. 0 -
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It’s come to me
We the fans buy the valley !
new ltd company set up
5 year loans offered to supporters with repayment over 60months or you invest 5000 up front if you have the cash .
We buy the valley for say 25million and rent it to who ever we choose but the valley will always belong to the fans , That way any invester in the club will know we won’t shaft the club .We can always put a clause that we will sell for 30+ million.Everyone has voting rights.
5000 shares at £5000 each . Max shares per person 5.
rent charged @500k p.a =2%return but the valley should increase in value plus the rent could increase with success on the pitch 750k in championship, 1million plus in premier league !3 -
That was the share scheme. I got to go to the AGM and hear about the potholes.MuttleyCAFC said:Maybe it was the share scheme, It was a long time ago. I genuinely thought it was the VIP. I remember the certificates although I have lost them.4 -
I disagree.Gribbo said:We argue about the contents of a Christmas Dinner, so can't see this idea getting very far3 -
Don't know if I'm just tired... but this actually seems pretty feasible...not sure about the rent part...but the principle of the fans owning the Valley seems sound...Oligab said:.
It’s come to me
We the fans buy the valley !
new ltd company set up
5 year loans offered to supporters with repayment over 60months or you invest 5000 up front if you have the cash .
We buy the valley for say 25million and rent it to who ever we choose but the valley will always belong to the fans , That way any invester in the club will know we won’t shaft the club .We can always put a clause that we will sell for 30+ million.Everyone has voting rights.
5000 shares at £5000 each . Max shares per person 5.
rent charged @500k p.a =2%return but the valley should increase in value plus the rent could increase with success on the pitch 750k in championship, 1million plus in premier league !
Just need Roland to agree to a fair price.... oh... I see the snag....3 -
Far from being a financial whizz I know nothing about it, but wouldn’t a possibility be to stick CAFC as a publicly listed company on the share market - and raise the required multimillions to be overseen by a Board of Directors who knew what they were talking about in respect of club ownership.0
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Yes, I lost money on the VIP scheme but worth every penny to be at the back to the Valley game and to play my very small part in getting us back home!MuttleyCAFC said:There was the Valley Investment Plan where a lot of us lost money.3 -
It seems a reasonable idea - but having worked for a privately owned company that went public - it's a hugely expensive exercise that involes, bankers, legal representatives, accountants and advisors. Their legal prospectus ran to more than 200 pages.; It cost millions to float and then there is no guarantee that you'll attract investors. In the case of CAFC there is a market that is the fan base - but you really need corporates involved to realistically raise the money to make it worthwhile.Blackheathen said:Far from being a financial whizz I know nothing about it, but wouldn’t a possibility be to stick CAFC as a publicly listed company on the share market - and raise the required multimillions to be overseen by a Board of Directors who knew what they were talking about in respect of club ownership.0 - Sponsored links:
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I’d certainly be interested3
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Are you sure? Are you not getting confused with the share issue where certainly many fans lost money.thetomahawkkid said:
Yes, I lost money on the VIP scheme but worth every penny to be at the back to the Valley game and to play my very small part in getting us back home!MuttleyCAFC said:There was the Valley Investment Plan where a lot of us lost money.0 -
If only we had some German Addicks who could explain how and why their ownership model seems to work so well.So it turns out Bayern Munich’s model is ultra cheap. Between 30 and €60 a year depending on age etc290,000 member. Not sure of the demographic breakdown, but if you go for an average fee of €50 then they’re raising €14.5M a year.Many other clubs charge more, but have fewer members.
Membership benefits from a Bundesliga Forum:
’Being a member has a few advantages in general; the main ones being discounts on season tickets, two free match tickets, priority in getting tickets for top and away matches, discount on merchandise and then some other small stuff like club magazine etc. A full membership with voting right obviously gives you a direct say in how the club is run so there's that. Back when I became a member I was living nearby and going to matches from time to time but to be honest I never had a chance to use any of the membership benefits anyway (other than free stadium tour). For me it's just about supporting the club and being part of it hence why I'm still a paying member and probably will be for life (depending on how silly the cost gets of course).’
‘Basically a quarterly member magazine, a right of first refusal at matches that are supposed to be sold out, even at a lower price, and of course you may give a person you trust a mandate to execute your voting rights at the annual member assembly.’3 -
A lot of us felt we were well and truly taken to the cleaners with the share issues. Unlike the VIP scheme which was largely just an upfront 5 or 10 year season ticket, we were shareholders and part owners. We received no benefits at all. I’m not sure of exact amount, but I think I had over £1000 in. An lost every penny without any thanks from the club.
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Imagine EFL checking 'source of funds' for 5000 shareholders ...1
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I'd just send them a picture of all of the change in the center console of my car and hope they don't know that coins in America aren't worth very much.dicktracey said:Imagine EFL checking 'source of funds' for 5000 shareholders ...0 -
So I'm a big believer in fan ownership and representation at board level in football. I think clubs are public utilities, and should be treated differently than normal businesses.
I believe that during the Roland era @castrust looked into a fan ownership model and said it just wasn't feasible. I'm snitch tagging them here because I would like their perspective, and maybe they can show us some of the work they've done.
I'll admit that I haven't read through all of the posts, so I apologize if this has been covered, but supporters having a stake in the club doesn't necessarily have to be binary--i.e. either we all own the club or we don't. If Sangaard is taking external investment, then that sets the barrier to entry far lower than whatever the club costs plus operating costs. In my mind, the question becomes: how much would it take to get some sort of a "participatory share?" In a normal business, this would mean something like a voting seat on a Board of Directors. I don't know that Charlton have a Board of Directors, so I don't know what form this would take. But it would basically amount to formalizing a fan voice in major club decisions.
If this were something that we wanted to seriously consider, I would happily volunteer my time. I have some experience with ESOPs (not the same, but there can be some common threads) that might be helpful.0 -
This. I had some shares- not a huge amount - but enough to feel royally pissed off when I got a letter saying, oh by the way your shares are worthless now.RaplhMilne said:A lot of us felt we were well and truly taken to the cleaners with the share issues. Unlike the VIP scheme which was largely just an upfront 5 or 10 year season ticket, we were shareholders and part owners. We received no benefits at all. I’m not sure of exact amount, but I think I had over £1000 in. An lost every penny without any thanks from the club.
Once bitten , twice shy and all that.1 -
Yes agree - can’t remember what I wrote off. Didn’t mind except, like you, felt there was never any real statement of thanks…RaplhMilne said:A lot of us felt we were well and truly taken to the cleaners with the share issues. Unlike the VIP scheme which was largely just an upfront 5 or 10 year season ticket, we were shareholders and part owners. We received no benefits at all. I’m not sure of exact amount, but I think I had over £1000 in. An lost every penny without any thanks from the club.1 -
This whole thread is born out of frustration. Frustration with the way successive owners have treated the club. There has to be a better ownership model out there. God knows what it is, but it must be out there somewhere.SDAddick said:So I'm a big believer in fan ownership and representation at board level in football. I think clubs are public utilities, and should be treated differently than normal businesses.
I believe that during the Roland era @castrust looked into a fan ownership model and said it just wasn't feasible. I'm snitch tagging them here because I would like their perspective, and maybe they can show us some of the work they've done.
I'll admit that I haven't read through all of the posts, so I apologize if this has been covered, but supporters having a stake in the club doesn't necessarily have to be binary--i.e. either we all own the club or we don't. If Sangaard is taking external investment, then that sets the barrier to entry far lower than whatever the club costs plus operating costs. In my mind, the question becomes: how much would it take to get some sort of a "participatory share?" In a normal business, this would mean something like a voting seat on a Board of Directors. I don't know that Charlton have a Board of Directors, so I don't know what form this would take. But it would basically amount to formalizing a fan voice in major club decisions.
If this were something that we wanted to seriously consider, I would happily volunteer my time. I have some experience with ESOPs (not the same, but there can be some common threads) that might be helpful.0 - Sponsored links:
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The thing about the shares being wiped out was that I'm sure it was not long after the Zabeel takeover fell through.
So we went from potentially getting a decent return on our shares from Zabeel to losing the lot within a few months (or so it seemed).
Still, I didn't really buy my shares to get a return.2 -
I can't think of any fundamental flaw with this: effectively a real estate fund, with a low rate of return, which hopefully would discourage non-fans from investing.Oligab said:.
It’s come to me
We the fans buy the valley !
new ltd company set up
5 year loans offered to supporters with repayment over 60months or you invest 5000 up front if you have the cash .
We buy the valley for say 25million and rent it to who ever we choose but the valley will always belong to the fans , That way any invester in the club will know we won’t shaft the club .We can always put a clause that we will sell for 30+ million.Everyone has voting rights.
5000 shares at £5000 each . Max shares per person 5.
rent charged @500k p.a =2%return but the valley should increase in value plus the rent could increase with success on the pitch 750k in championship, 1million plus in premier league !
The devil is in the detail, I'm sure, e.g. running costs and maintenance of the ground, plus fund admin such as making payments to shareholders, handling buying and selling of shares, etc. So maybe not much left if anything from the rent.
But certainly it feels safer than other options.0 -
I like it, but you won’t get The Valley for £25M. More like £50M+.Arthur_Trudgill said:
I can't think of any fundamental flaw with this: effectively a real estate fund, with a low rate of return, which hopefully would discourage non-fans from investing.Oligab said:.
It’s come to me
We the fans buy the valley !
new ltd company set up
5 year loans offered to supporters with repayment over 60months or you invest 5000 up front if you have the cash .
We buy the valley for say 25million and rent it to who ever we choose but the valley will always belong to the fans , That way any invester in the club will know we won’t shaft the club .We can always put a clause that we will sell for 30+ million.Everyone has voting rights.
5000 shares at £5000 each . Max shares per person 5.
rent charged @500k p.a =2%return but the valley should increase in value plus the rent could increase with success on the pitch 750k in championship, 1million plus in premier league !
The devil is in the detail, I'm sure, e.g. running costs and maintenance of the ground, plus fund admin such as making payments to shareholders, handling buying and selling of shares, etc. So maybe not much left if anything from the rent.
But certainly it feels safer than other options.1 -
PWR the last page and a half.
Why just not sell 5,000 season tickets at what ever price you need to raise to cover 49% of the total costs every year and give those season ticket holders, 49% of the votes?
I'll tell you why, because you will never sell all those season tickets.
You could buy 49% of the club, quite easily IMO. You could never fund it.1 -
I’ve been thinking for a while, what if supporters established a fund with the sole objective of acquiring the valley and preserving it in perpetuity for its current / rightful use. In theory possible at the moment as presumably RD would sell with the lease in place (putting the obstacle of his valuation to one side).
Exit would be a sale back to the club, say once decent ownership in place (maybe measured against CAST’s charter) with some sort of valuation metric trigger, maybe all investors get their nominal investment back - not inconceivable in prem.
Sale back could be covenanted to prevent use for anything other than football, preventing separation from the football business ever again etc.
obvs there’s a lot of detail beneath all of that, it would take time to build the fund and there are costs, but it is something fans could actually do and begin now..2 -
Funds could be raised by adding an additional £1 or 50p (optional) to every home ticket. This money set aside for the fans part ownership? 🧐0
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It’s just very difficult to raise £50M. If the sum was a more manageable (and more realistic) £20M we might be in with a fighting chance. Adding a quid to ticket prices would have to be done by the club, or whoever owns it, and you’d find that difficult to police.dickad1 said:I’ve been thinking for a while, what if supporters established a fund with the sole objective of acquiring the valley and preserving it in perpetuity for its current / rightful use. In theory possible at the moment as presumably RD would sell with the lease in place (putting the obstacle of his valuation to one side).
Exit would be a sale back to the club, say once decent ownership in place (maybe measured against CAST’s charter) with some sort of valuation metric trigger, maybe all investors get their nominal investment back - not inconceivable in prem.
Sale back could be covenanted to prevent use for anything other than football, preventing separation from the football business ever again etc.
obvs there’s a lot of detail beneath all of that, it would take time to build the fund and there are costs, but it is something fans could actually do and begin now..
The tragedy is the Duchâtelet bought the club for (a reported) £14M.
Raising that sum would have been far more straightforward.If only a more enlightened buyer had come along with the best interests of the club at heart, rather than Duchâtelet.1 -
Barcelona do a similar membership scheme.JamesSeed said:If only we had some German Addicks who could explain how and why their ownership model seems to work so well.So it turns out Bayern Munich’s model is ultra cheap. Between 30 and €60 a year depending on age etc290,000 member. Not sure of the demographic breakdown, but if you go for an average fee of €50 then they’re raising €14.5M a year.Many other clubs charge more, but have fewer members.
Membership benefits from a Bundesliga Forum:
’Being a member has a few advantages in general; the main ones being discounts on season tickets, two free match tickets, priority in getting tickets for top and away matches, discount on merchandise and then some other small stuff like club magazine etc. A full membership with voting right obviously gives you a direct say in how the club is run so there's that. Back when I became a member I was living nearby and going to matches from time to time but to be honest I never had a chance to use any of the membership benefits anyway (other than free stadium tour). For me it's just about supporting the club and being part of it hence why I'm still a paying member and probably will be for life (depending on how silly the cost gets of course).’
‘Basically a quarterly member magazine, a right of first refusal at matches that are supposed to be sold out, even at a lower price, and of course you may give a person you trust a mandate to execute your voting rights at the annual member assembly.’
https://9campnou.com/how-to-become-fc-barcelona-socio/#:~:text=Currently, in 2022, there are,gold to buy the club.
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Thanks Chris.‘FC Barcelona doesn’t belong to just one person but socios – members. Currently, in 2022, there are around 143,000 socios but this number changes every year.
Members have also an influence on the functioning of FC Barcelona. First of all, it’s because of them there can be no sheik who comes to Catalonia with a bag of gold to buy the club. It’s a good thing. Also, if we’re run by a horrible president like Bartomeu, socios can prepare a vote of no confidence and get him out of the club.
So if FC Barcelona is a democracy then logically we need elections to choose our Presidente. And that’s exactly what happens every few years. The current president is Joan Laporta who won the last elections in March 2021.
Finally, if there is a crucial decision to be made regarding FC Barcelona’s future the board can call for a referendum. The last two were about the change of the club’s crest (dismissed, thank God) and the construction of Espai Barça(approved). There is also a General Assembly (Asamblea General de Socios) to which you can be randomly chosen if you’d been a socio for at least 5 years.’
How to become an FC Barcelona socio (member) in 2022
It’s quite easy actually. The 3-year waiting period introduced by Sandro Rosell has been scrapped and it has been permitted to become a by filling out an online form.
ALL YOU NEED TO DO IS FILL OUT AN ONLINE FORM. After a couple of days, you’ll get a confirmation to your email and the Club will send you the welcome package via mail.
1. Is it worth it to become an FC Barcelona socio?
I think it is. Apart from being a club member and having a real influence on FC Barcelona politics, you will get discounts for tickets and the ability to buy them in a pre-sale for the most anticipated games like El Clásico. After a few years more you’ll have the ability to vote in the referendums and you can get elected as a socio compromisario).
Members also have Barça TV for free as well as some local discounts like in the Catalan theme park Port Aventura.Recently with the introduction of online voting, you don’t even have to live in Spain to make an influence.
2. How much does being a member cost and what are the required documents?
Currently in 2022, the socio membership fee costs 195 EUR per year, paid in full in December or January of every year. Regarding the documents like I wrote above you only really need your ID and a bank account number so that the Club can charge you automatically like with every subscription in the world.
As soon as you become a socio you’ll get a welcome pack for starters which is a nice gesture.
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Valley Gold revisited from 1989 and the VIP from 1991/1992. Worked back then but too much money to be raised now
Nice idea but sadly pie in the sky0
