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Michael Appleton - March 2025 appointed Shrewsbury manager (p124)
Comments
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Whilst I'm a little underwhelmed I'll get behind him and see what eventuates. I'll judge him on what we see over the next dozen games. I really hope he does well for all our sakes. COYR.1
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Good luck to Micky Apples. Got to win every game and make 22 players undroppable in the process apparently.Let’s hope the EFL turn a blind eye to our unique approach to overloading on the counter attack14
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It's another "I win/you lose" irrational target being set.
If any academy player who has already appeared in the first team, even as just a sub in the paint pot cup, does well that doesn't count as they have already been "developed".
No allowance given for developing/improving them from where they are now to where they might be.
Deji and Ness have both played this season but clearly both need to be a lot better to start every week. There will be multiple reasons for that but part of MA'S job will be to take them to the next level and make raw talent consistent and reliable.
And all while having to win every game.
Good at developing players is a glib cliche as there are so many other people inputting to a player's development not least including the player themselves.
Did Garner develop JRS or was that Holden or Hayes?
So in the case of Jeremy Santos what is the measurement of "development".
Maybe a loan but then the credit will be given to the loaned club not MA.
Maybe play him v Wycombe but if he bombs then MA has stunted his development. Another "gotcha".
As I said they are "I win/you lose" targets and tell us more about the person setting them than they ever will about Appleton.27 -
The original comment was that he was 'a dud early on'. No one who watched him in the opening games can disagree with that.SomervilleAddick said:
This is the issue with a lot of fans, not just ours. If you sign a new player, get a new manager or use an academy player and they are not immediately outstanding, they’re crap. And it takes ages to get over that initial opinion.JamesSeed said:.J BLOCK said:
Bit harsh. Gave a goal away when he and … thingy… collided.
Because he wasPeanutsMolloy said:
A lot of Lifers thought Dobbo a dud early on.raytreacy69 said:
In all fairness to McGrandles I still don’t think we have seen enough of him to judge.He was good at Lincoln and did well on loan to CambridgeJac_52 said:raytreacy69 said:Very good read
interesting comments re Edun and McGrandles
If the bloke can get a team into the playoffs with McGrandles in midfield he must be some sort of miracle worker
He might yet suprise us allWas ok-ish apart from that, I thought. But he improved and looks to have improved again in the first two or three games this season.This is the same fan base that demands stability0 -
I think we have established that if we are going to get back to being a championship club (somewhere i think most agree is our natural level), we are going to have to do it the hard way - for whatever reason, we are not one of those lucky clubs who have managed to attract a ridiculously wealthy owner who is willing to throw loads at it. The selling point by methven to the funders is probably that under the last 2 ownerships at least, the club has been run by amateurs which has hampered the footballing side. The hope is that now we have Scott and Rodwell pulling the strings, the football side will be helped and the losses required to fund the club reduced at the same time by clever buying and selling - including a profit from our youth products. Now that is the traditional way of running a club and i'm fine with that. The funders will expect to lose a big chunk of what they have what they have promised for 2 years but that that gets them closer to a crack at the money shot - the prem - and the likes of luton have proved it is achievable without massive spending. The opening games clearly didn't back that 'added value by know how approach' up so a change in the 'head coach' has been made - again, fair enough. It's all on Appleton now - if he does well, Scott does well - if he fails, with Scott's players,all of that falls back onto Scott. Will Methven and the funders then replace Scott or will they look to sell? I hope Appleton does well - he could do - i'm somewhere between thinking we now have an experienced coach with a decent squad if all are fit, to thinking we have a shit set of central defenders who lack a real leader and aerial dominance so can't see how we will keep the ball out, regardless of what we do going forwards. I'm also concerned we won't see a lot of camara, which could be pivotal. I'll be getting behind things until it becomes obvious we aren't heading in the wrong direction. We should never settle for league 1 but we also have to give people a fair chance at getting us out of the division. Club's positions in the football league are a lot more transient now - you can move up and down the divisions a lot quicker now - probably due to the short term contracts and rapid turnover in squads - so i don't feel like we are now a league 1 club - i feel like we are a club still trying to get its act together after a succession of bizarre ownerships but we will get there at some point.9
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The voice of reason.Henry Irving said:It's another "I win/you lose" irrational target being set.
If any academy player who has already appeared in the first team, even as just a sub in the paint pot cup, does well that doesn't count as they have already been "developed".
No allowance given for developing/improving them from where they are now to where they might be.
Deji and Ness have both played this season but clearly both need to be a lot better to start every week. There will be multiple reasons for that but part of MA'S job will be to take them to the next level and make raw talent consistent and reliable.
And all while having to win every game.
Good at developing players is a glib cliche as there are so many other people inputting to a player's development not least including the player themselves.
Did Garner develop JRS or was that Holden or Hayes?
So in the case of Jeremy Santos what is the measurement of "development".
Maybe a loan but then the credit will be given to the loaned club not MA.
Maybe play him v Wycombe but if he bombs then MA has stunted his development. Another "gotcha".
As I said they are "I win/you lose" targets and tell us more about the person setting them than they ever will about Appleton.
One of the reasons I thought DH had to go when he did was that we were seeing very promising Academy products losing confidence and going backwards - by mistakes yes, but primarily by naive team selection and poor late game tactics ("senior" players going AWOL at times didn't help).
It's one of the best crop of youngsters we've produced in the last 20 years IMHO and, for their and CAFC's sake, we must enable them to fulfil their potential while they're with us.8 -
I’m backing Appleton to do well , law of averages means we’re gonna have someone punch above their natural weight sooner or later and this scary fruit is the man .
David Kerslake as his steady older hand as well will help .
problem is I think most of our players aren’t good enough for a promotion and that’s what’s required , so give him a chance back him with some better players and the worlds our oyster .
You heard it here first , Appleton will be our saviour3 -
The original comment (mine) was meant to convey that early form (indeed not good for Dobbo - I don't disagree with you) can lead to premature (and wrong) judgement.J BLOCK said:
The original comment was that he was 'a dud early on'. No one who watched him in the opening games can disagree with that.SomervilleAddick said:
This is the issue with a lot of fans, not just ours. If you sign a new player, get a new manager or use an academy player and they are not immediately outstanding, they’re crap. And it takes ages to get over that initial opinion.JamesSeed said:.J BLOCK said:
Bit harsh. Gave a goal away when he and … thingy… collided.
Because he wasPeanutsMolloy said:
A lot of Lifers thought Dobbo a dud early on.raytreacy69 said:
In all fairness to McGrandles I still don’t think we have seen enough of him to judge.He was good at Lincoln and did well on loan to CambridgeJac_52 said:raytreacy69 said:Very good read
interesting comments re Edun and McGrandles
If the bloke can get a team into the playoffs with McGrandles in midfield he must be some sort of miracle worker
He might yet suprise us allWas ok-ish apart from that, I thought. But he improved and looks to have improved again in the first two or three games this season.This is the same fan base that demands stability
It was a response to the judgement expressed by some here that McGrandles is a write off.
IMO we have not seen enough of him yet to make that judgement.5 -
AgreedPeanutsMolloy said:
The original comment (mine) was meant to convey that early form (indeed not good for Dobbo - I don't disagree with you) can lead to premature (and wrong) judgement.J BLOCK said:
The original comment was that he was 'a dud early on'. No one who watched him in the opening games can disagree with that.SomervilleAddick said:
This is the issue with a lot of fans, not just ours. If you sign a new player, get a new manager or use an academy player and they are not immediately outstanding, they’re crap. And it takes ages to get over that initial opinion.JamesSeed said:.J BLOCK said:
Bit harsh. Gave a goal away when he and … thingy… collided.
Because he wasPeanutsMolloy said:
A lot of Lifers thought Dobbo a dud early on.raytreacy69 said:
In all fairness to McGrandles I still don’t think we have seen enough of him to judge.He was good at Lincoln and did well on loan to CambridgeJac_52 said:raytreacy69 said:Very good read
interesting comments re Edun and McGrandles
If the bloke can get a team into the playoffs with McGrandles in midfield he must be some sort of miracle worker
He might yet suprise us allWas ok-ish apart from that, I thought. But he improved and looks to have improved again in the first two or three games this season.This is the same fan base that demands stability
It was a response to the judgement expressed by some here that McGrandles is a write off.
IMO we have not seen enough of him yet to make that judgement.1 -
Holden introduced Karoy Anderson to first team football. Then there is Campbell, Asimwe Mitchell and Ness to add to that. If they hadn’t been picked a lot of people wouldn’t have known they were ‘promising Academy products’.PeanutsMolloy said:
The voice of reason.Henry Irving said:It's another "I win/you lose" irrational target being set.
If any academy player who has already appeared in the first team, even as just a sub in the paint pot cup, does well that doesn't count as they have already been "developed".
No allowance given for developing/improving them from where they are now to where they might be.
Deji and Ness have both played this season but clearly both need to be a lot better to start every week. There will be multiple reasons for that but part of MA'S job will be to take them to the next level and make raw talent consistent and reliable.
And all while having to win every game.
Good at developing players is a glib cliche as there are so many other people inputting to a player's development not least including the player themselves.
Did Garner develop JRS or was that Holden or Hayes?
So in the case of Jeremy Santos what is the measurement of "development".
Maybe a loan but then the credit will be given to the loaned club not MA.
Maybe play him v Wycombe but if he bombs then MA has stunted his development. Another "gotcha".
As I said they are "I win/you lose" targets and tell us more about the person setting them than they ever will about Appleton.
One of the reasons I thought DH had to go when he did was that we were seeing very promising Academy products losing confidence and going backwards - by mistakes yes, but primarily by naive team selection and poor late game tactics ("senior" players going AWOL at times didn't help).
It's one of the best crop of youngsters we've produced in the last 20 years IMHO and, for their and CAFC's sake, we must enable them to fulfil their potential while they're with us.
Were we seeing those players losing confidence and going backwards?
As for mistakes, well I saw Asimwe cost us a game with a mistake, but I also saw experienced Michael Hector do the same.
If Michael Appleton is going to improve the academy products that have broken through what will that look like?
I think you can rule out picking them in the first place because that’s already been done, so what else?My answer to that question would be to make them part of a winning team that secures automatic promotion.3 - Sponsored links:
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If Appleton can give hector what’s needed to make him the dominant leader we need him to be then that will be a massive step in the right direction - got s feeling his ‘easy osey’ style won’t go down well with our tattoo gunned snarler - this could also be pivotal2
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You do know the difference between improving and picking. You honestly expect us to believe someone with your level of education and experience does genuinely not know?seth plum said:
Holden introduced Karoy Anderson to first team football. Then there is Campbell, Asimwe Mitchell and Ness to add to that. If they hadn’t been picked a lot of people wouldn’t have known they were ‘promising Academy products’.PeanutsMolloy said:
The voice of reason.Henry Irving said:It's another "I win/you lose" irrational target being set.
If any academy player who has already appeared in the first team, even as just a sub in the paint pot cup, does well that doesn't count as they have already been "developed".
No allowance given for developing/improving them from where they are now to where they might be.
Deji and Ness have both played this season but clearly both need to be a lot better to start every week. There will be multiple reasons for that but part of MA'S job will be to take them to the next level and make raw talent consistent and reliable.
And all while having to win every game.
Good at developing players is a glib cliche as there are so many other people inputting to a player's development not least including the player themselves.
Did Garner develop JRS or was that Holden or Hayes?
So in the case of Jeremy Santos what is the measurement of "development".
Maybe a loan but then the credit will be given to the loaned club not MA.
Maybe play him v Wycombe but if he bombs then MA has stunted his development. Another "gotcha".
As I said they are "I win/you lose" targets and tell us more about the person setting them than they ever will about Appleton.
One of the reasons I thought DH had to go when he did was that we were seeing very promising Academy products losing confidence and going backwards - by mistakes yes, but primarily by naive team selection and poor late game tactics ("senior" players going AWOL at times didn't help).
It's one of the best crop of youngsters we've produced in the last 20 years IMHO and, for their and CAFC's sake, we must enable them to fulfil their potential while they're with us.
Were we seeing those players losing confidence and going backwards?
As for mistakes, well I saw Asimwe cost us a game with a mistake, but I also saw experienced Michael Hector do the same.
If Michael Appleton is going to improve the academy products that have broken through what will that look like?
I think you can rule out picking them in the first place because that’s already been done, so what else?My answer to that question would be to make them part of a winning team that secures automatic promotion.5 -
Do you actually ever see anything other than negativity and conspiracy ?seth plum said:I don’t think further success with the first group would be down to Michael Appleton. They’re already getting picked here and there.
If Miles Leaburn becomes an undroppable player, do you think that will be down to Michael Appleton, or would it be down to his team selection from the players he is presented with and he rates Leaburn?
As do most of us.2 -
I asked what improvements might look like beyond what we know and can see already?Cafc43v3r said:
You do know the difference between improving and picking. You honestly expect us to believe someone with your level of education and experience does genuinely not know?seth plum said:
Holden introduced Karoy Anderson to first team football. Then there is Campbell, Asimwe Mitchell and Ness to add to that. If they hadn’t been picked a lot of people wouldn’t have known they were ‘promising Academy products’.PeanutsMolloy said:
The voice of reason.Henry Irving said:It's another "I win/you lose" irrational target being set.
If any academy player who has already appeared in the first team, even as just a sub in the paint pot cup, does well that doesn't count as they have already been "developed".
No allowance given for developing/improving them from where they are now to where they might be.
Deji and Ness have both played this season but clearly both need to be a lot better to start every week. There will be multiple reasons for that but part of MA'S job will be to take them to the next level and make raw talent consistent and reliable.
And all while having to win every game.
Good at developing players is a glib cliche as there are so many other people inputting to a player's development not least including the player themselves.
Did Garner develop JRS or was that Holden or Hayes?
So in the case of Jeremy Santos what is the measurement of "development".
Maybe a loan but then the credit will be given to the loaned club not MA.
Maybe play him v Wycombe but if he bombs then MA has stunted his development. Another "gotcha".
As I said they are "I win/you lose" targets and tell us more about the person setting them than they ever will about Appleton.
One of the reasons I thought DH had to go when he did was that we were seeing very promising Academy products losing confidence and going backwards - by mistakes yes, but primarily by naive team selection and poor late game tactics ("senior" players going AWOL at times didn't help).
It's one of the best crop of youngsters we've produced in the last 20 years IMHO and, for their and CAFC's sake, we must enable them to fulfil their potential while they're with us.
Were we seeing those players losing confidence and going backwards?
As for mistakes, well I saw Asimwe cost us a game with a mistake, but I also saw experienced Michael Hector do the same.
If Michael Appleton is going to improve the academy products that have broken through what will that look like?
I think you can rule out picking them in the first place because that’s already been done, so what else?My answer to that question would be to make them part of a winning team that secures automatic promotion.
Maybe you would like to describe what an improved Tyreece Campbell (and others) would look like, I have already made one suggestion which is he would be improved if he were part of a team that secured us automatic promotion.
It is the development system under Steve Avory that had made the major contribution to the players we are discussing.2 -
As for the important stuff….. how do we do a Red and White army chant that fits his name?
Michael Appletons Red and White Army doesn’t work - the iteration is out as it’s too long.
Maybe Michael A’s Red and White Army (like we did we Alan C’s).
My OCD will be itching if we try and cram 5 syllables in.4 -
Being part of a successful team isn’t a measure that any player has improved individually. For T Campbell for example improvement could be shown by getting more goal involvements, being defensively smarter and being able to pick out passes a bit earlier. That’s not saying he’s bad at any of those things but they can be improved. It’s not necessarily something you can see with statistics either, some things you have to use your eye and judgement.seth plum said:
I asked what improvements might look like beyond what we know and can see already?Cafc43v3r said:
You do know the difference between improving and picking. You honestly expect us to believe someone with your level of education and experience does genuinely not know?seth plum said:
Holden introduced Karoy Anderson to first team football. Then there is Campbell, Asimwe Mitchell and Ness to add to that. If they hadn’t been picked a lot of people wouldn’t have known they were ‘promising Academy products’.PeanutsMolloy said:
The voice of reason.Henry Irving said:It's another "I win/you lose" irrational target being set.
If any academy player who has already appeared in the first team, even as just a sub in the paint pot cup, does well that doesn't count as they have already been "developed".
No allowance given for developing/improving them from where they are now to where they might be.
Deji and Ness have both played this season but clearly both need to be a lot better to start every week. There will be multiple reasons for that but part of MA'S job will be to take them to the next level and make raw talent consistent and reliable.
And all while having to win every game.
Good at developing players is a glib cliche as there are so many other people inputting to a player's development not least including the player themselves.
Did Garner develop JRS or was that Holden or Hayes?
So in the case of Jeremy Santos what is the measurement of "development".
Maybe a loan but then the credit will be given to the loaned club not MA.
Maybe play him v Wycombe but if he bombs then MA has stunted his development. Another "gotcha".
As I said they are "I win/you lose" targets and tell us more about the person setting them than they ever will about Appleton.
One of the reasons I thought DH had to go when he did was that we were seeing very promising Academy products losing confidence and going backwards - by mistakes yes, but primarily by naive team selection and poor late game tactics ("senior" players going AWOL at times didn't help).
It's one of the best crop of youngsters we've produced in the last 20 years IMHO and, for their and CAFC's sake, we must enable them to fulfil their potential while they're with us.
Were we seeing those players losing confidence and going backwards?
As for mistakes, well I saw Asimwe cost us a game with a mistake, but I also saw experienced Michael Hector do the same.
If Michael Appleton is going to improve the academy products that have broken through what will that look like?
I think you can rule out picking them in the first place because that’s already been done, so what else?My answer to that question would be to make them part of a winning team that secures automatic promotion.
Maybe you would like to describe what an improved Tyreece Campbell (and others) would look like, I have already made one suggestion which is he would be improved if he were part of a team that secured us automatic promotion.
It is the development system under Steve Avory that had made the major contribution to the players we are discussing.4 -
Are you saying that every young player that makes it through to being on the fringes of the first team is at that point the finished article ? Not even in your most ridiculous arguments can you think that. Avory gets them through to that point and then his job is done. Most will improve naturally as they mature and some will have a ceiling they cannot break through. It is the first team manager and his first team coaches that make sure that the potential is nurtured and reached. That includes protecting the player from over selection regardless of ability and having the ability to see where the player needs additional help. Of course the first team management are heavily involved in the progression of an academy prospect once they are at the required level to be involved in first team squads.seth plum said:
I asked what improvements might look like beyond what we know and can see already?Cafc43v3r said:
You do know the difference between improving and picking. You honestly expect us to believe someone with your level of education and experience does genuinely not know?seth plum said:
Holden introduced Karoy Anderson to first team football. Then there is Campbell, Asimwe Mitchell and Ness to add to that. If they hadn’t been picked a lot of people wouldn’t have known they were ‘promising Academy products’.PeanutsMolloy said:
The voice of reason.Henry Irving said:It's another "I win/you lose" irrational target being set.
If any academy player who has already appeared in the first team, even as just a sub in the paint pot cup, does well that doesn't count as they have already been "developed".
No allowance given for developing/improving them from where they are now to where they might be.
Deji and Ness have both played this season but clearly both need to be a lot better to start every week. There will be multiple reasons for that but part of MA'S job will be to take them to the next level and make raw talent consistent and reliable.
And all while having to win every game.
Good at developing players is a glib cliche as there are so many other people inputting to a player's development not least including the player themselves.
Did Garner develop JRS or was that Holden or Hayes?
So in the case of Jeremy Santos what is the measurement of "development".
Maybe a loan but then the credit will be given to the loaned club not MA.
Maybe play him v Wycombe but if he bombs then MA has stunted his development. Another "gotcha".
As I said they are "I win/you lose" targets and tell us more about the person setting them than they ever will about Appleton.
One of the reasons I thought DH had to go when he did was that we were seeing very promising Academy products losing confidence and going backwards - by mistakes yes, but primarily by naive team selection and poor late game tactics ("senior" players going AWOL at times didn't help).
It's one of the best crop of youngsters we've produced in the last 20 years IMHO and, for their and CAFC's sake, we must enable them to fulfil their potential while they're with us.
Were we seeing those players losing confidence and going backwards?
As for mistakes, well I saw Asimwe cost us a game with a mistake, but I also saw experienced Michael Hector do the same.
If Michael Appleton is going to improve the academy products that have broken through what will that look like?
I think you can rule out picking them in the first place because that’s already been done, so what else?My answer to that question would be to make them part of a winning team that secures automatic promotion.
Maybe you would like to describe what an improved Tyreece Campbell (and others) would look like, I have already made one suggestion which is he would be improved if he were part of a team that secured us automatic promotion.
It is the development system under Steve Avory that had made the major contribution to the players we are discussing.5 -
Micky Apple’s Red and White Army.DamoNorthStand said:As for the important stuff….. how do we do a Red and White army chant that fits his name?
Michael Appletons Red and White Army doesn’t work - the iteration is out as it’s too long.
Maybe Michael A’s Red and White Army (like we did we Alan C’s).
My OCD will be itching if we try and cram 5 syllables in.6 -
I agree with you.fenaddick said:
Being part of a successful team isn’t a measure that any player has improved individually. For T Campbell for example improvement could be shown by getting more goal involvements, being defensively smarter and being able to pick out passes a bit earlier. That’s not saying he’s bad at any of those things but they can be improved. It’s not necessarily something you can see with statistics either, some things you have to use your eye and judgement.seth plum said:
I asked what improvements might look like beyond what we know and can see already?Cafc43v3r said:
You do know the difference between improving and picking. You honestly expect us to believe someone with your level of education and experience does genuinely not know?seth plum said:
Holden introduced Karoy Anderson to first team football. Then there is Campbell, Asimwe Mitchell and Ness to add to that. If they hadn’t been picked a lot of people wouldn’t have known they were ‘promising Academy products’.PeanutsMolloy said:
The voice of reason.Henry Irving said:It's another "I win/you lose" irrational target being set.
If any academy player who has already appeared in the first team, even as just a sub in the paint pot cup, does well that doesn't count as they have already been "developed".
No allowance given for developing/improving them from where they are now to where they might be.
Deji and Ness have both played this season but clearly both need to be a lot better to start every week. There will be multiple reasons for that but part of MA'S job will be to take them to the next level and make raw talent consistent and reliable.
And all while having to win every game.
Good at developing players is a glib cliche as there are so many other people inputting to a player's development not least including the player themselves.
Did Garner develop JRS or was that Holden or Hayes?
So in the case of Jeremy Santos what is the measurement of "development".
Maybe a loan but then the credit will be given to the loaned club not MA.
Maybe play him v Wycombe but if he bombs then MA has stunted his development. Another "gotcha".
As I said they are "I win/you lose" targets and tell us more about the person setting them than they ever will about Appleton.
One of the reasons I thought DH had to go when he did was that we were seeing very promising Academy products losing confidence and going backwards - by mistakes yes, but primarily by naive team selection and poor late game tactics ("senior" players going AWOL at times didn't help).
It's one of the best crop of youngsters we've produced in the last 20 years IMHO and, for their and CAFC's sake, we must enable them to fulfil their potential while they're with us.
Were we seeing those players losing confidence and going backwards?
As for mistakes, well I saw Asimwe cost us a game with a mistake, but I also saw experienced Michael Hector do the same.
If Michael Appleton is going to improve the academy products that have broken through what will that look like?
I think you can rule out picking them in the first place because that’s already been done, so what else?My answer to that question would be to make them part of a winning team that secures automatic promotion.
Maybe you would like to describe what an improved Tyreece Campbell (and others) would look like, I have already made one suggestion which is he would be improved if he were part of a team that secured us automatic promotion.
It is the development system under Steve Avory that had made the major contribution to the players we are discussing.
What intrigued me is to what extent further improvement (to Miles, Tyreece and others) would be down to more game time or more coaching.2 -
What we see at the moment is a team that has lost 4 out of 6 league games. Improvement would be the same players winning 8 games on the spin.seth plum said:
I asked what improvements might look like beyond what we know and can see already?Cafc43v3r said:
You do know the difference between improving and picking. You honestly expect us to believe someone with your level of education and experience does genuinely not know?seth plum said:
Holden introduced Karoy Anderson to first team football. Then there is Campbell, Asimwe Mitchell and Ness to add to that. If they hadn’t been picked a lot of people wouldn’t have known they were ‘promising Academy products’.PeanutsMolloy said:
The voice of reason.Henry Irving said:It's another "I win/you lose" irrational target being set.
If any academy player who has already appeared in the first team, even as just a sub in the paint pot cup, does well that doesn't count as they have already been "developed".
No allowance given for developing/improving them from where they are now to where they might be.
Deji and Ness have both played this season but clearly both need to be a lot better to start every week. There will be multiple reasons for that but part of MA'S job will be to take them to the next level and make raw talent consistent and reliable.
And all while having to win every game.
Good at developing players is a glib cliche as there are so many other people inputting to a player's development not least including the player themselves.
Did Garner develop JRS or was that Holden or Hayes?
So in the case of Jeremy Santos what is the measurement of "development".
Maybe a loan but then the credit will be given to the loaned club not MA.
Maybe play him v Wycombe but if he bombs then MA has stunted his development. Another "gotcha".
As I said they are "I win/you lose" targets and tell us more about the person setting them than they ever will about Appleton.
One of the reasons I thought DH had to go when he did was that we were seeing very promising Academy products losing confidence and going backwards - by mistakes yes, but primarily by naive team selection and poor late game tactics ("senior" players going AWOL at times didn't help).
It's one of the best crop of youngsters we've produced in the last 20 years IMHO and, for their and CAFC's sake, we must enable them to fulfil their potential while they're with us.
Were we seeing those players losing confidence and going backwards?
As for mistakes, well I saw Asimwe cost us a game with a mistake, but I also saw experienced Michael Hector do the same.
If Michael Appleton is going to improve the academy products that have broken through what will that look like?
I think you can rule out picking them in the first place because that’s already been done, so what else?My answer to that question would be to make them part of a winning team that secures automatic promotion.
Maybe you would like to describe what an improved Tyreece Campbell (and others) would look like, I have already made one suggestion which is he would be improved if he were part of a team that secured us automatic promotion.
It is the development system under Steve Avory that had made the major contribution to the players we are discussing.
I am suprised you can't see that your own demands are contrary to your assertion that the manager can't improve the players.
How do we go from losing to winning without the players improving?6 - Sponsored links:
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I think AFKA nailed it - mickey applesDamoNorthStand said:As for the important stuff….. how do we do a Red and White army chant that fits his name?
Michael Appletons Red and White Army doesn’t work - the iteration is out as it’s too long.
Maybe Michael A’s Red and White Army (like we did we Alan C’s).
My OCD will be itching if we try and cram 5 syllables in.0 -
I watched the U21’s on the stream last Friday winning at Sheffield Wednesday and was very positive about that.ShootersHillGuru said:
Do you actually ever see anything other than negativity and conspiracy ?seth plum said:I don’t think further success with the first group would be down to Michael Appleton. They’re already getting picked here and there.
If Miles Leaburn becomes an undroppable player, do you think that will be down to Michael Appleton, or would it be down to his team selection from the players he is presented with and he rates Leaburn?
As do most of us.2 -
Michael Appletons Red & White Army fits fine..doesn't it..🤷♂️DamoNorthStand said:As for the important stuff….. how do we do a Red and White army chant that fits his name?
Michael Appletons Red and White Army doesn’t work - the iteration is out as it’s too long.
Maybe Michael A’s Red and White Army (like we did we Alan C’s).
My OCD will be itching if we try and cram 5 syllables in.
I had to look up "iteration" on Google and that didn't help....🙄- the repetition of a process or utterance.
- repetition of a mathematical or computational procedure applied to the result of a previous application, typically as a means of obtaining successively closer approximations to the solution of a problem.
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No they are not necessarily the finished article but they are well on their way.ShootersHillGuru said:
Are you saying that every young player that makes it through to being on the fringes of the first team is at that point the finished article ? Not even in your most ridiculous arguments can you think that. Avory gets them through to that point and then his job is done. Most will improve naturally as they mature and some will have a ceiling they cannot break through. It is the first team manager and his first team coaches that make sure that the potential is nurtured and reached. That includes protecting the player from over selection regardless of ability and having the ability to see where the player needs additional help. Of course the first team management are heavily involved in the progression of an academy prospect once they are at the required level to be involved in first team squads.seth plum said:
I asked what improvements might look like beyond what we know and can see already?Cafc43v3r said:
You do know the difference between improving and picking. You honestly expect us to believe someone with your level of education and experience does genuinely not know?seth plum said:
Holden introduced Karoy Anderson to first team football. Then there is Campbell, Asimwe Mitchell and Ness to add to that. If they hadn’t been picked a lot of people wouldn’t have known they were ‘promising Academy products’.PeanutsMolloy said:
The voice of reason.Henry Irving said:It's another "I win/you lose" irrational target being set.
If any academy player who has already appeared in the first team, even as just a sub in the paint pot cup, does well that doesn't count as they have already been "developed".
No allowance given for developing/improving them from where they are now to where they might be.
Deji and Ness have both played this season but clearly both need to be a lot better to start every week. There will be multiple reasons for that but part of MA'S job will be to take them to the next level and make raw talent consistent and reliable.
And all while having to win every game.
Good at developing players is a glib cliche as there are so many other people inputting to a player's development not least including the player themselves.
Did Garner develop JRS or was that Holden or Hayes?
So in the case of Jeremy Santos what is the measurement of "development".
Maybe a loan but then the credit will be given to the loaned club not MA.
Maybe play him v Wycombe but if he bombs then MA has stunted his development. Another "gotcha".
As I said they are "I win/you lose" targets and tell us more about the person setting them than they ever will about Appleton.
One of the reasons I thought DH had to go when he did was that we were seeing very promising Academy products losing confidence and going backwards - by mistakes yes, but primarily by naive team selection and poor late game tactics ("senior" players going AWOL at times didn't help).
It's one of the best crop of youngsters we've produced in the last 20 years IMHO and, for their and CAFC's sake, we must enable them to fulfil their potential while they're with us.
Were we seeing those players losing confidence and going backwards?
As for mistakes, well I saw Asimwe cost us a game with a mistake, but I also saw experienced Michael Hector do the same.
If Michael Appleton is going to improve the academy products that have broken through what will that look like?
I think you can rule out picking them in the first place because that’s already been done, so what else?My answer to that question would be to make them part of a winning team that secures automatic promotion.
Maybe you would like to describe what an improved Tyreece Campbell (and others) would look like, I have already made one suggestion which is he would be improved if he were part of a team that secured us automatic promotion.
It is the development system under Steve Avory that had made the major contribution to the players we are discussing.
One feature of the appointment of Michael Appleton that has been promoted is this young player thing, so I have been asking the question how that is going to happen and what it would look like.
Is the young player manoeuvre a red herring and a distraction, as in we remain mired as an indifferent lower league club but never mind we have lots of saleable young players?3 -
it’s going to be different for each player, but it’s down to MA to find the balance for each player. That’s the key thing in developing young playersseth plum said:
I agree with you.fenaddick said:
Being part of a successful team isn’t a measure that any player has improved individually. For T Campbell for example improvement could be shown by getting more goal involvements, being defensively smarter and being able to pick out passes a bit earlier. That’s not saying he’s bad at any of those things but they can be improved. It’s not necessarily something you can see with statistics either, some things you have to use your eye and judgement.seth plum said:
I asked what improvements might look like beyond what we know and can see already?Cafc43v3r said:
You do know the difference between improving and picking. You honestly expect us to believe someone with your level of education and experience does genuinely not know?seth plum said:
Holden introduced Karoy Anderson to first team football. Then there is Campbell, Asimwe Mitchell and Ness to add to that. If they hadn’t been picked a lot of people wouldn’t have known they were ‘promising Academy products’.PeanutsMolloy said:
The voice of reason.Henry Irving said:It's another "I win/you lose" irrational target being set.
If any academy player who has already appeared in the first team, even as just a sub in the paint pot cup, does well that doesn't count as they have already been "developed".
No allowance given for developing/improving them from where they are now to where they might be.
Deji and Ness have both played this season but clearly both need to be a lot better to start every week. There will be multiple reasons for that but part of MA'S job will be to take them to the next level and make raw talent consistent and reliable.
And all while having to win every game.
Good at developing players is a glib cliche as there are so many other people inputting to a player's development not least including the player themselves.
Did Garner develop JRS or was that Holden or Hayes?
So in the case of Jeremy Santos what is the measurement of "development".
Maybe a loan but then the credit will be given to the loaned club not MA.
Maybe play him v Wycombe but if he bombs then MA has stunted his development. Another "gotcha".
As I said they are "I win/you lose" targets and tell us more about the person setting them than they ever will about Appleton.
One of the reasons I thought DH had to go when he did was that we were seeing very promising Academy products losing confidence and going backwards - by mistakes yes, but primarily by naive team selection and poor late game tactics ("senior" players going AWOL at times didn't help).
It's one of the best crop of youngsters we've produced in the last 20 years IMHO and, for their and CAFC's sake, we must enable them to fulfil their potential while they're with us.
Were we seeing those players losing confidence and going backwards?
As for mistakes, well I saw Asimwe cost us a game with a mistake, but I also saw experienced Michael Hector do the same.
If Michael Appleton is going to improve the academy products that have broken through what will that look like?
I think you can rule out picking them in the first place because that’s already been done, so what else?My answer to that question would be to make them part of a winning team that secures automatic promotion.
Maybe you would like to describe what an improved Tyreece Campbell (and others) would look like, I have already made one suggestion which is he would be improved if he were part of a team that secured us automatic promotion.
It is the development system under Steve Avory that had made the major contribution to the players we are discussing.
What intrigued me is to what extent further improvement (to Miles, Tyreece and others) would be down to more game time or more coaching.2 -
But you know the truth that they are just words that any club uses on revealing a new manager or new signing.seth plum said:
No they are not necessarily the finished article but they are well on their way.ShootersHillGuru said:
Are you saying that every young player that makes it through to being on the fringes of the first team is at that point the finished article ? Not even in your most ridiculous arguments can you think that. Avory gets them through to that point and then his job is done. Most will improve naturally as they mature and some will have a ceiling they cannot break through. It is the first team manager and his first team coaches that make sure that the potential is nurtured and reached. That includes protecting the player from over selection regardless of ability and having the ability to see where the player needs additional help. Of course the first team management are heavily involved in the progression of an academy prospect once they are at the required level to be involved in first team squads.seth plum said:
I asked what improvements might look like beyond what we know and can see already?Cafc43v3r said:
You do know the difference between improving and picking. You honestly expect us to believe someone with your level of education and experience does genuinely not know?seth plum said:
Holden introduced Karoy Anderson to first team football. Then there is Campbell, Asimwe Mitchell and Ness to add to that. If they hadn’t been picked a lot of people wouldn’t have known they were ‘promising Academy products’.PeanutsMolloy said:
The voice of reason.Henry Irving said:It's another "I win/you lose" irrational target being set.
If any academy player who has already appeared in the first team, even as just a sub in the paint pot cup, does well that doesn't count as they have already been "developed".
No allowance given for developing/improving them from where they are now to where they might be.
Deji and Ness have both played this season but clearly both need to be a lot better to start every week. There will be multiple reasons for that but part of MA'S job will be to take them to the next level and make raw talent consistent and reliable.
And all while having to win every game.
Good at developing players is a glib cliche as there are so many other people inputting to a player's development not least including the player themselves.
Did Garner develop JRS or was that Holden or Hayes?
So in the case of Jeremy Santos what is the measurement of "development".
Maybe a loan but then the credit will be given to the loaned club not MA.
Maybe play him v Wycombe but if he bombs then MA has stunted his development. Another "gotcha".
As I said they are "I win/you lose" targets and tell us more about the person setting them than they ever will about Appleton.
One of the reasons I thought DH had to go when he did was that we were seeing very promising Academy products losing confidence and going backwards - by mistakes yes, but primarily by naive team selection and poor late game tactics ("senior" players going AWOL at times didn't help).
It's one of the best crop of youngsters we've produced in the last 20 years IMHO and, for their and CAFC's sake, we must enable them to fulfil their potential while they're with us.
Were we seeing those players losing confidence and going backwards?
As for mistakes, well I saw Asimwe cost us a game with a mistake, but I also saw experienced Michael Hector do the same.
If Michael Appleton is going to improve the academy products that have broken through what will that look like?
I think you can rule out picking them in the first place because that’s already been done, so what else?My answer to that question would be to make them part of a winning team that secures automatic promotion.
Maybe you would like to describe what an improved Tyreece Campbell (and others) would look like, I have already made one suggestion which is he would be improved if he were part of a team that secured us automatic promotion.
It is the development system under Steve Avory that had made the major contribution to the players we are discussing.
One feature of the appointment of Michael Appleton that has been promoted is this young player thing, so I have been asking the question how that is going to happen and what it would look like.
Is the young player manoeuvre a red herring and a distraction, as in we remain mired as an indifferent lower league club but never mind we have lots of saleable young players?
Its the same as an corporate BS 'Mission Statement' or 'Values'. Just words.
UNTIL of course when actions occur and in the case of Charlton that means wining more than losing and heading back up the table. Then we will see another set of meaningless words about how we did it / who is to take credit etc. No analysis is needed.
We've appointed someone else who is currently 'ordinary' & until results pick up no one is fully sold on him.0 -
I agree about corporate BS, and also agree about judging on results.valleynick66 said:
But you know the truth that they are just words that any club uses on revealing a new manager or new signing.seth plum said:
No they are not necessarily the finished article but they are well on their way.ShootersHillGuru said:
Are you saying that every young player that makes it through to being on the fringes of the first team is at that point the finished article ? Not even in your most ridiculous arguments can you think that. Avory gets them through to that point and then his job is done. Most will improve naturally as they mature and some will have a ceiling they cannot break through. It is the first team manager and his first team coaches that make sure that the potential is nurtured and reached. That includes protecting the player from over selection regardless of ability and having the ability to see where the player needs additional help. Of course the first team management are heavily involved in the progression of an academy prospect once they are at the required level to be involved in first team squads.seth plum said:
I asked what improvements might look like beyond what we know and can see already?Cafc43v3r said:
You do know the difference between improving and picking. You honestly expect us to believe someone with your level of education and experience does genuinely not know?seth plum said:
Holden introduced Karoy Anderson to first team football. Then there is Campbell, Asimwe Mitchell and Ness to add to that. If they hadn’t been picked a lot of people wouldn’t have known they were ‘promising Academy products’.PeanutsMolloy said:
The voice of reason.Henry Irving said:It's another "I win/you lose" irrational target being set.
If any academy player who has already appeared in the first team, even as just a sub in the paint pot cup, does well that doesn't count as they have already been "developed".
No allowance given for developing/improving them from where they are now to where they might be.
Deji and Ness have both played this season but clearly both need to be a lot better to start every week. There will be multiple reasons for that but part of MA'S job will be to take them to the next level and make raw talent consistent and reliable.
And all while having to win every game.
Good at developing players is a glib cliche as there are so many other people inputting to a player's development not least including the player themselves.
Did Garner develop JRS or was that Holden or Hayes?
So in the case of Jeremy Santos what is the measurement of "development".
Maybe a loan but then the credit will be given to the loaned club not MA.
Maybe play him v Wycombe but if he bombs then MA has stunted his development. Another "gotcha".
As I said they are "I win/you lose" targets and tell us more about the person setting them than they ever will about Appleton.
One of the reasons I thought DH had to go when he did was that we were seeing very promising Academy products losing confidence and going backwards - by mistakes yes, but primarily by naive team selection and poor late game tactics ("senior" players going AWOL at times didn't help).
It's one of the best crop of youngsters we've produced in the last 20 years IMHO and, for their and CAFC's sake, we must enable them to fulfil their potential while they're with us.
Were we seeing those players losing confidence and going backwards?
As for mistakes, well I saw Asimwe cost us a game with a mistake, but I also saw experienced Michael Hector do the same.
If Michael Appleton is going to improve the academy products that have broken through what will that look like?
I think you can rule out picking them in the first place because that’s already been done, so what else?My answer to that question would be to make them part of a winning team that secures automatic promotion.
Maybe you would like to describe what an improved Tyreece Campbell (and others) would look like, I have already made one suggestion which is he would be improved if he were part of a team that secured us automatic promotion.
It is the development system under Steve Avory that had made the major contribution to the players we are discussing.
One feature of the appointment of Michael Appleton that has been promoted is this young player thing, so I have been asking the question how that is going to happen and what it would look like.
Is the young player manoeuvre a red herring and a distraction, as in we remain mired as an indifferent lower league club but never mind we have lots of saleable young players?
Its the same as an corporate BS 'Mission Statement' or 'Values'. Just words.
UNTIL of course when actions occur and in the case of Charlton that means wining more than losing and heading back up the table. Then we will see another set of meaningless words about how we did it / who is to take credit etc. No analysis is needed.
We've appointed someone else who is currently 'ordinary' & until results pick up no one is fully sold on him.
The reason I am sneered at is because I want a very high level of results that others call unrealistic.
0 -
I have almost reached rock bottom with this club and coming close to switching off the life support. If MA can concentrate on the defence and with a consistent starting eleven then this might produce a result or two that will hopefully move me further away from the switch.1
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By deploying the players in a winning formation.Cafc43v3r said:
What we see at the moment is a team that has lost 4 out of 6 league games. Improvement would be the same players winning 8 games on the spin.seth plum said:
I asked what improvements might look like beyond what we know and can see already?Cafc43v3r said:
You do know the difference between improving and picking. You honestly expect us to believe someone with your level of education and experience does genuinely not know?seth plum said:
Holden introduced Karoy Anderson to first team football. Then there is Campbell, Asimwe Mitchell and Ness to add to that. If they hadn’t been picked a lot of people wouldn’t have known they were ‘promising Academy products’.PeanutsMolloy said:
The voice of reason.Henry Irving said:It's another "I win/you lose" irrational target being set.
If any academy player who has already appeared in the first team, even as just a sub in the paint pot cup, does well that doesn't count as they have already been "developed".
No allowance given for developing/improving them from where they are now to where they might be.
Deji and Ness have both played this season but clearly both need to be a lot better to start every week. There will be multiple reasons for that but part of MA'S job will be to take them to the next level and make raw talent consistent and reliable.
And all while having to win every game.
Good at developing players is a glib cliche as there are so many other people inputting to a player's development not least including the player themselves.
Did Garner develop JRS or was that Holden or Hayes?
So in the case of Jeremy Santos what is the measurement of "development".
Maybe a loan but then the credit will be given to the loaned club not MA.
Maybe play him v Wycombe but if he bombs then MA has stunted his development. Another "gotcha".
As I said they are "I win/you lose" targets and tell us more about the person setting them than they ever will about Appleton.
One of the reasons I thought DH had to go when he did was that we were seeing very promising Academy products losing confidence and going backwards - by mistakes yes, but primarily by naive team selection and poor late game tactics ("senior" players going AWOL at times didn't help).
It's one of the best crop of youngsters we've produced in the last 20 years IMHO and, for their and CAFC's sake, we must enable them to fulfil their potential while they're with us.
Were we seeing those players losing confidence and going backwards?
As for mistakes, well I saw Asimwe cost us a game with a mistake, but I also saw experienced Michael Hector do the same.
If Michael Appleton is going to improve the academy products that have broken through what will that look like?
I think you can rule out picking them in the first place because that’s already been done, so what else?My answer to that question would be to make them part of a winning team that secures automatic promotion.
Maybe you would like to describe what an improved Tyreece Campbell (and others) would look like, I have already made one suggestion which is he would be improved if he were part of a team that secured us automatic promotion.
It is the development system under Steve Avory that had made the major contribution to the players we are discussing.
I am suprised you can't see that your own demands are contrary to your assertion that the manager can't improve the players.
How do we go from losing to winning without the players improving?4 -
Appletons red and white army fits it quite nicelyDOUCHER said:
I think AFKA nailed it - mickey applesDamoNorthStand said:As for the important stuff….. how do we do a Red and White army chant that fits his name?
Michael Appletons Red and White Army doesn’t work - the iteration is out as it’s too long.
Maybe Michael A’s Red and White Army (like we did we Alan C’s).
My OCD will be itching if we try and cram 5 syllables in.6
