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The 2023 ICC Men's Cricket World Cup
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Serious question when was the last time Rashid and Ali were avaliable and any other spinner was picked above them? In any format?Addick Addict said:
Of course, had Stokes been able to bowl then things might have been different as we wouldn't then have picked six other seamers. But I suppose the question is whether we really needed six anyway? India only have five seamers in their squad and have picked just three in this game, one of which, Hardik Pandya, is really there to do the all rounders role. I suppose the acid test will be how many games someone like Willey will play as against how many Dawson might have played.Leuth said:Yeah, Liam Dawson feels like he should be an automatic all-formats pick in the subcontinent at least if not anywhere right now
Liam Dawson will be 34 at the start of next summer so he isn't a long term solution. Ahmed won't be 20 until the end of it.
There must be someone in the middle, somewhere?0 -
Not watching the game, so is it an absolute minefield out there or are India just bowling really well?0
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I know Kohli is a bit of a knob.
But there is something about watching the Aussies getting hammered that I find very satisfying.2 -
India have bowled exceptionally well but it is safe to say that this isn't an easy track to bat on. The truth is that they have prepared a tailor made surface and executed their disciplines to perfection.killerandflash said:Not watching the game, so is it an absolute minefield out there or are India just bowling really well?2 -
Is having a proper 50 over competition helping Australia?
Some bonkers cricket happening in it though.
ResultTasmania vs South Aust, 7th MatchThe Marsh CupTAS 435/9SOA 398Tasmania won by 37 runs0 -
You only have to look at the leading wicket takers in the CC to see why that is. That is the starting point for all spinners (no county is going to offer a white ball only contract to a spinner) which means that they have to prove themselves first in red ball. It is that mode of the game that gives them the overs needed to learn their game. But when eight out of 14 CC matches are played in April/May and September, when conditions are most suitable for seamers, spinners simply aren't going to get to do that.Cafc43v3r said:
Serious question when was the last time Rashid and Ali were avaliable and any other spinner was picked above them? In any format?Addick Addict said:
Of course, had Stokes been able to bowl then things might have been different as we wouldn't then have picked six other seamers. But I suppose the question is whether we really needed six anyway? India only have five seamers in their squad and have picked just three in this game, one of which, Hardik Pandya, is really there to do the all rounders role. I suppose the acid test will be how many games someone like Willey will play as against how many Dawson might have played.Leuth said:Yeah, Liam Dawson feels like he should be an automatic all-formats pick in the subcontinent at least if not anywhere right now
Liam Dawson will be 34 at the start of next summer so he isn't a long term solution. Ahmed won't be 20 until the end of it.
There must be someone in the middle, somewhere?
To illustrate this point, below are the leading wicket takers in the CC from 30 years ago (1993). The ones in bold are the 12 spinners that took 44 or more wickets in the CC of which all bar one was qualified to play for England. This season there were two spinners that took 44 or more wickets - Harmer (not qualified) and DawsonName Balls Mdns Runs Wkts BB Ave 5wI 10wM Mushtaq Ahmed (Sm) 4167 212 1773 85 7-91 20.85 8 3 SL Watkin (Gm) 4018 144 1866 81 5-71 23.03 2 0 JE Emburey (Mx) 3976 213 1251 68 8-40 18.39 2 1 KM Curran (Nr) 2748 123 1293 67 7-47 19.29 3 0 SD Udal (Ham) 4071 167 1889 65 6-141 29.06 5 2 MP Bicknell (Sy) 2492 120 1078 63 6-43 17.11 6 2 EE Hemmings (Sx) 4100 208 1541 63 7-31 24.46 2 1 Waqar Younis (Sy) 2698 89 1407 62 6-42 22.69 4 0 CA Walsh (Gs) 3079 117 1466 62 5-59 23.64 3 0 JE Benjamin (Sy) 3698 150 1764 62 6-19 28.45 2 0 JP Taylor (Nr) 3443 169 1590 61 6-82 26.06 2 0 Wasim Akram (La) 2456 93 1137 59 8-68 19.27 5 1 CEL Ambrose (Nr) 3262 150 1207 59 6-49 20.45 2 0 PCR Tufnell (Mx) 3503 176 1210 59 8-29 20.50 3 0 AD Mullally (Le) 2839 123 1371 59 7-72 23.23 2 1 JA Afford (Nt) 4313 223 1659 57 5-64 29.10 3 0 AR Caddick (Sm) 1914 79 968 56 9-32 17.28 5 3 PJ Newport (Wo) 3054 128 1337 56 6-63 23.87 1 0 D Gough (Yor) 2753 96 1416 55 7-42 25.74 3 1 RDB Croft (Gm) 4505 224 1947 54 5-112 36.05 2 0 CL Cairns (Nt) 2471 74 1242 53 6-70 23.43 3 0 AC Cummins (Dur) 2853 88 1527 51 6-115 29.94 3 0 AP Igglesden (Kent) 2358 101 968 50 6-58 19.36 3 1 ARC Fraser (Mx) 2837 121 1219 50 7-40 24.38 1 0 JH Childs (Es) 3651 175 1466 49 6-37 29.91 3 0 PAJ DeFreitas (La) 3070 100 1578 49 7-76 32.20 4 1 IDK Salisbury (Sx) 3119 113 1736 49 5-81 35.42 2 0 RK Illingworth (Wo) 3445 200 1192 48 6-28 24.83 1 0 MA Robinson (Yor) 3000 127 1324 48 9-37 27.58 3 1 MC Ilott (Es) 2716 95 1349 48 7-85 28.10 2 0 KE Cooper (Gs) 3016 149 1233 47 5-83 26.23 1 0 PM Such (Es) 2869 110 1284 44 5-66 29.18 4 2 NMK Smith (Wk) 3374 143 1522 44 6-122 34.59 3 0
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Australia 199 all out0
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My son mentioned Fraser-McGurk's innings this morning to me - 125 off 38 balls. Absolutely ridiculous. The point he made, though, is that the wickets in Australia so much favour batsmen because of the true nature of the bounce and pace. You can literally just hit through the line of the ball without fear of movement off the pitch or that the ball is going to stop on you. It was impossible to do that for Australia today.Cafc43v3r said:Is having a proper 50 over competition helping Australia?
Some bonkers cricket happening in it though.
ResultTasmania vs South Aust, 7th MatchThe Marsh CupTAS 435/9SOA 398Tasmania won by 37 runs
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India in a bit of trouble at 2-2. Will there become a victim of their own wicket?0
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Make that 2-3!!!!0
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Has anyone ever lost 3 wickets in an ODI before a run off the bat?1
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You can't just throw your hands at balls on pitches like this. And when you're 2-2 and only need 4 an over it makes it even more ridiculous to do so.0
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Never write off The Aussies in cricket and Germany in football.0
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Or maybe not.blackpool72 said:I know Kohli is a bit of a knob.
But there is something about watching the Aussies getting hammered that I find very satisfying.2 -
Pakistan were 1-4, after 3.1 overs chasing 311 to win against West Indies in the 2015 World Cup. The first three wickets were ducks, but Shazhad had the temerity to score a run off the bat before the third wicket went. He was fourth out. For one.Cafc43v3r said:Has anyone ever lost 3 wickets in an ODI before a run off the bat?
Sri Lanka started wicket, wicket, wicket against Bangladesh in the 2003 World Cup, so Bangladesh were 0-3 after half an over.
And, famously, in a Test match, Fred Trueman reduced India to 0-4.0 -
Sri Lanka started wicket, wicket, wicket against Sri Lanka ?Chizz said:
Pakistan were 1-4, after 3.1 overs chasing 311 to win against West Indies in the 2015 World Cup. The first three wickets were ducks, but Shazhad had the temerity to score a run off the bat before the third wicket went. He was fourth out. For one.Cafc43v3r said:Has anyone ever lost 3 wickets in an ODI before a run off the bat?
Sri Lanka started wicket, wicket, wicket against Sri Lanka in the 2003 World Cup, so were were 0-3 after half an over.
And, famously, in a Test match, Fred Trueman reduced India to 0-4.2 -
Marsh drops Kohli. Could be a big drop too
20-3 off 7.30 -
49-3 off 15. At the same stage, Australia were 71-10
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Hate him, but Kohli is a real batsman in every regard, and this is real batsmanship from Rahul too0
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Cam Green has contributed only slightly more than Ben Stokes so far this world cup 😉2
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India win by 6 wickets with 52 balls to spare0
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The Aussies look short of spinners. Strange that Labuschagne bowls much more in Tests and in white ball cricket0
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I mentioned that I thought that Australia were "all over the place" at the start of this thread and that was as much in connection with their inability to select a balanced squad. Labuschagne wasn't in the original 15 but came into the series against SA and did well. Agar lost his place to a calf injury and rather than include someone like Sangha they opted to go with the extra batsman in the shape of Labuschagne - primarily because Head wasn't going to be fit for the start of the WC. These issues are further compounded by the form of Zampa who is very up and down at the moment.killerandflash said:The Aussies look short of spinners. Strange that Labuschagne bowls much more in Tests and in white ball cricket0 -
Sorry I missed this amongst the Cam Green/Aussie baiting.Addick Addict said:
You only have to look at the leading wicket takers in the CC to see why that is. That is the starting point for all spinners (no county is going to offer a white ball only contract to a spinner) which means that they have to prove themselves first in red ball. It is that mode of the game that gives them the overs needed to learn their game. But when eight out of 14 CC matches are played in April/May and September, when conditions are most suitable for seamers, spinners simply aren't going to get to do that.Cafc43v3r said:
Serious question when was the last time Rashid and Ali were avaliable and any other spinner was picked above them? In any format?Addick Addict said:
Of course, had Stokes been able to bowl then things might have been different as we wouldn't then have picked six other seamers. But I suppose the question is whether we really needed six anyway? India only have five seamers in their squad and have picked just three in this game, one of which, Hardik Pandya, is really there to do the all rounders role. I suppose the acid test will be how many games someone like Willey will play as against how many Dawson might have played.Leuth said:Yeah, Liam Dawson feels like he should be an automatic all-formats pick in the subcontinent at least if not anywhere right now
Liam Dawson will be 34 at the start of next summer so he isn't a long term solution. Ahmed won't be 20 until the end of it.
There must be someone in the middle, somewhere?
To illustrate this point, below are the leading wicket takers in the CC from 30 years ago (1993). The ones in bold are the 12 spinners that took 44 or more wickets in the CC of which all bar one was qualified to play for England. This season there were two spinners that took 44 or more wickets - Harmer (not qualified) and DawsonName Balls Mdns Runs Wkts BB Ave 5wI 10wM Mushtaq Ahmed (Sm) 4167 212 1773 85 7-91 20.85 8 3 SL Watkin (Gm) 4018 144 1866 81 5-71 23.03 2 0 JE Emburey (Mx) 3976 213 1251 68 8-40 18.39 2 1 KM Curran (Nr) 2748 123 1293 67 7-47 19.29 3 0 SD Udal (Ham) 4071 167 1889 65 6-141 29.06 5 2 MP Bicknell (Sy) 2492 120 1078 63 6-43 17.11 6 2 EE Hemmings (Sx) 4100 208 1541 63 7-31 24.46 2 1 Waqar Younis (Sy) 2698 89 1407 62 6-42 22.69 4 0 CA Walsh (Gs) 3079 117 1466 62 5-59 23.64 3 0 JE Benjamin (Sy) 3698 150 1764 62 6-19 28.45 2 0 JP Taylor (Nr) 3443 169 1590 61 6-82 26.06 2 0 Wasim Akram (La) 2456 93 1137 59 8-68 19.27 5 1 CEL Ambrose (Nr) 3262 150 1207 59 6-49 20.45 2 0 PCR Tufnell (Mx) 3503 176 1210 59 8-29 20.50 3 0 AD Mullally (Le) 2839 123 1371 59 7-72 23.23 2 1 JA Afford (Nt) 4313 223 1659 57 5-64 29.10 3 0 AR Caddick (Sm) 1914 79 968 56 9-32 17.28 5 3 PJ Newport (Wo) 3054 128 1337 56 6-63 23.87 1 0 D Gough (Yor) 2753 96 1416 55 7-42 25.74 3 1 RDB Croft (Gm) 4505 224 1947 54 5-112 36.05 2 0 CL Cairns (Nt) 2471 74 1242 53 6-70 23.43 3 0 AC Cummins (Dur) 2853 88 1527 51 6-115 29.94 3 0 AP Igglesden (Kent) 2358 101 968 50 6-58 19.36 3 1 ARC Fraser (Mx) 2837 121 1219 50 7-40 24.38 1 0 JH Childs (Es) 3651 175 1466 49 6-37 29.91 3 0 PAJ DeFreitas (La) 3070 100 1578 49 7-76 32.20 4 1 IDK Salisbury (Sx) 3119 113 1736 49 5-81 35.42 2 0 RK Illingworth (Wo) 3445 200 1192 48 6-28 24.83 1 0 MA Robinson (Yor) 3000 127 1324 48 9-37 27.58 3 1 MC Ilott (Es) 2716 95 1349 48 7-85 28.10 2 0 KE Cooper (Gs) 3016 149 1233 47 5-83 26.23 1 0 PM Such (Es) 2869 110 1284 44 5-66 29.18 4 2 NMK Smith (Wk) 3374 143 1522 44 6-122 34.59 3 0
This is a very new thing though, it explains the lack of 22/23 year old spinners but not the 28/29 ones.
I looked at the 2019 CCC wicket takers and Harmer and Patel were right at the top then the only spin bowlers I recognised were Leach and Bess bowling on bunsens.
Teams must use spinners in the blast? They clearly aren't "away with England". So who are they and why aren't they in the frame for England?0 -
Cafc43v3r said:
Sorry I missed this amongst the Cam Green/Aussie baiting.Addick Addict said:
You only have to look at the leading wicket takers in the CC to see why that is. That is the starting point for all spinners (no county is going to offer a white ball only contract to a spinner) which means that they have to prove themselves first in red ball. It is that mode of the game that gives them the overs needed to learn their game. But when eight out of 14 CC matches are played in April/May and September, when conditions are most suitable for seamers, spinners simply aren't going to get to do that.Cafc43v3r said:
Serious question when was the last time Rashid and Ali were avaliable and any other spinner was picked above them? In any format?Addick Addict said:
Of course, had Stokes been able to bowl then things might have been different as we wouldn't then have picked six other seamers. But I suppose the question is whether we really needed six anyway? India only have five seamers in their squad and have picked just three in this game, one of which, Hardik Pandya, is really there to do the all rounders role. I suppose the acid test will be how many games someone like Willey will play as against how many Dawson might have played.Leuth said:Yeah, Liam Dawson feels like he should be an automatic all-formats pick in the subcontinent at least if not anywhere right now
Liam Dawson will be 34 at the start of next summer so he isn't a long term solution. Ahmed won't be 20 until the end of it.
There must be someone in the middle, somewhere?
To illustrate this point, below are the leading wicket takers in the CC from 30 years ago (1993). The ones in bold are the 12 spinners that took 44 or more wickets in the CC of which all bar one was qualified to play for England. This season there were two spinners that took 44 or more wickets - Harmer (not qualified) and DawsonName Balls Mdns Runs Wkts BB Ave 5wI 10wM Mushtaq Ahmed (Sm) 4167 212 1773 85 7-91 20.85 8 3 SL Watkin (Gm) 4018 144 1866 81 5-71 23.03 2 0 JE Emburey (Mx) 3976 213 1251 68 8-40 18.39 2 1 KM Curran (Nr) 2748 123 1293 67 7-47 19.29 3 0 SD Udal (Ham) 4071 167 1889 65 6-141 29.06 5 2 MP Bicknell (Sy) 2492 120 1078 63 6-43 17.11 6 2 EE Hemmings (Sx) 4100 208 1541 63 7-31 24.46 2 1 Waqar Younis (Sy) 2698 89 1407 62 6-42 22.69 4 0 CA Walsh (Gs) 3079 117 1466 62 5-59 23.64 3 0 JE Benjamin (Sy) 3698 150 1764 62 6-19 28.45 2 0 JP Taylor (Nr) 3443 169 1590 61 6-82 26.06 2 0 Wasim Akram (La) 2456 93 1137 59 8-68 19.27 5 1 CEL Ambrose (Nr) 3262 150 1207 59 6-49 20.45 2 0 PCR Tufnell (Mx) 3503 176 1210 59 8-29 20.50 3 0 AD Mullally (Le) 2839 123 1371 59 7-72 23.23 2 1 JA Afford (Nt) 4313 223 1659 57 5-64 29.10 3 0 AR Caddick (Sm) 1914 79 968 56 9-32 17.28 5 3 PJ Newport (Wo) 3054 128 1337 56 6-63 23.87 1 0 D Gough (Yor) 2753 96 1416 55 7-42 25.74 3 1 RDB Croft (Gm) 4505 224 1947 54 5-112 36.05 2 0 CL Cairns (Nt) 2471 74 1242 53 6-70 23.43 3 0 AC Cummins (Dur) 2853 88 1527 51 6-115 29.94 3 0 AP Igglesden (Kent) 2358 101 968 50 6-58 19.36 3 1 ARC Fraser (Mx) 2837 121 1219 50 7-40 24.38 1 0 JH Childs (Es) 3651 175 1466 49 6-37 29.91 3 0 PAJ DeFreitas (La) 3070 100 1578 49 7-76 32.20 4 1 IDK Salisbury (Sx) 3119 113 1736 49 5-81 35.42 2 0 RK Illingworth (Wo) 3445 200 1192 48 6-28 24.83 1 0 MA Robinson (Yor) 3000 127 1324 48 9-37 27.58 3 1 MC Ilott (Es) 2716 95 1349 48 7-85 28.10 2 0 KE Cooper (Gs) 3016 149 1233 47 5-83 26.23 1 0 PM Such (Es) 2869 110 1284 44 5-66 29.18 4 2 NMK Smith (Wk) 3374 143 1522 44 6-122 34.59 3 0
This is a very new thing though, it explains the lack of 22/23 year old spinners but not the 28/29 ones.
I looked at the 2019 CCC wicket takers and Harmer and Patel were right at the top then the only spin bowlers I recognised were Leach and Bess bowling on bunsens.
Teams must use spinners in the blast? They clearly aren't "away with England". So who are they and why aren't they in the frame for England?The playing of at least half of the fixtures in the CC early and late season has been going on for a while. This came about firstly from the emphasis on the 40/50 over comps combined with The Blast and then The Hundred taking up a fair proportion of those weeks. Spinners thrive on dry, bouncy wickets typically in June/July/August and these are the number of CC games played during that period for every decade in the last 30 years:
1993 - 12
2003 - 9
2013 - 6
2023 - 5
If we accept the premise that bowlers need to cut their teeth by bowling over after over that playing in the CC as that affords them the time to bowl both defensively and with a view to taking wickets then we probably have to accept that it is difficult for a spinner who gets a chance to bowl a maximum of 4 overs in white ball is likely to do so - any young bowler getting carted for a dozen in each of an over or two is unlikely to bowl his full allocation. So what will counties do in white ball given those circumstance? They'll utilise a batting all rounder and/or enlist the services of the established mercenary who has bags of experience e.g. Surrey (and this isn't a pop at them for once, I am just using them as an example) - who used Jacks and Narine to fulfill those roles to the detriment of the likes of Moriarty and Virdi who played one game in The Blast this season between them.
Which brings me onto this year's Blast. This is a list of the top 40 wicket takers and the highlighted ones are those that are spinners that are qualified to play for England:
Henry (Som) - 31
Green (Som) - 30
Chappell (Derbs) - 26
Zaman Khan (Derbs) - 25
Sams (Essex) - 25
Sowter (Durh) - 25
Brown (Worcs) - 24
Stewart (Kent) - 24
Ellis (Hants) - 23
Critchley (Essex) - 23
Afridi (Notts) - 22
Hogan (Kent) - 22
Turner (Hants) - 21
Mousley (Warwick) - 21
Thompson (Yorks) - 20
Narine (Surrey) - 20
Scrimshaw (Derbs) - 20
Harmer (Essex) - 20
Usama Mir (Worcs) - 19
Tye (Hants) - 19
McIlroy (Glam) - 19
Taylor (Northants) - 18
C Overton (Som) - 18
Mills (Suss) - 18
Wood (Lancs) - 18
Smith (Glouc) - 18
Heldreich (Northants) - 17
Parkinson (Leics) - 17
Hatzoglou (Glam) - 17
Raine (Durh) - 16
Willey (Northants) - 16
S Curran (Surrey) 16
Cook (Essex) - 16
D'Oliveira (Worcs) - 15
Gregory (Som) - 15
Parnell (Durh) - 15
Jordan (Surrey) - 15
Wood (Hants) - 15
Payne (Glouc) - 15
Sanderson (Northants) - 15
So we have half a dozen or so English qualified spinners in the top 40 that took 15 or more wickets in The Blast. None jump of the page as ready to send to a WC with a couple being raw 22 year olds and most of the others are too old or not good enough/bowling is their second string discipline. We've already established that Dawson is the only English qualified spinner to have taken 40 or more wickets in the CC.
It doesn't make economic sense for counties to invest heavily in spinners when they might get a maximum of half a dozen games in the CC and those bowlers not have developed as a result the control and skillset to perform at the top level in white ball. And that means that counties might only carry two spinners on their books. Look at Kent - they have signed Matt Parkinson from Lancs (who also played on loan at Kent) and have Qadri already contracted. Nijjar played for them at the end of the season on loan and having been released by Essex is available to sign. But does it really make economic sense to do so when they could take a loan in again if one or other gets injured or sign a Chahal as they did on a short term deal as they also did? Talking about Parkinson, he played for Lancs, Durham and Kent this season in three different comps. He should have been playing both red and white ball for Lancs and knocking on that England door. But like Moriarty, Virdi, Nijjar etc etc, spinners really aren't in favour right now and it takes a special kind of cricketer to bounce back when door after door keeps slamming. Every team has up to four specialist batsmen and as many as four seamers but some teams in the CC don't have a single specialist spinner.
That is why we have no obvious England spinners. You rightly mentioned Rehan Ahmed but just look at how he performed in County cricket this season from limited exposure. In the CC he took 8 wickets at 66.12 in Division 2, in The Blast he took 9 wickets at 44.33 and in The Hundred he took 9 wickets at 19.33. So, our current England squad spinner took 26 wickets in all forms of domestic cricket this season. He's 19 and should be bowling over after over learning his craft. We know what the answer is as to why he isn't. When it comes to England, he's an over protected species (remember how we called up Moeen for the Ashes) and for his County he it totally underused.
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The Netherlands have won the toss and elected to field against NZ. A surprise result would be somewhat useful for us.
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NZ off to a flyer
0-0 off 3 overs0 -
So much for that lol1
