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POST-MATCH THREAD: Wigan Athletic vs Charlton Athletic: Tuesday 31st October 2023 | KO 7:45PM
Comments
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I was a bit down after the game. Yes it was a victory but I have never thought we would be relegated, I need to see the proof we can get promoted. And I didn't see it on Tuesday night. I saw the proof we have some players much better than the League but there is a soft under belly that is almost predictable it will show itself at some point in a game and it always does to some extent. If I see that go, I think we will have made a major step forward and to do that, Appleton has to work out what the cause is. If it is young players, we can improve them and it is an understandable issue. If it is senior players we need to get rid.5
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Shame we don’t have a league match at the weekend to try and keep the momentum going.1
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Bizarrely looked more comfortable there than on the right.Covered_End_Lad said:Special mention to Tennai Watson who was excellent out of position at left back. We looked a lot better with him there than we have with Thomas the last few games.3 -
That’s good news. Was he tested much?Talal said:
Bizarrely looked more comfortable there than on the right.Covered_End_Lad said:Special mention to Tennai Watson who was excellent out of position at left back. We looked a lot better with him there than we have with Thomas the last few games.0 -
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This is a priority for January. Appleton has expressed the need to bring in more experience (and steel). Should be easier task than finding creative and goalscoring players, which we now have plenty of.MuttleyCAFC said:I was a bit down after the game. Yes it was a victory but I have never thought we would be relegated, I need to see the proof we can get promoted. And I didn't see it on Tuesday night. I saw the proof we have some players much better than the League but there is a soft under belly that is almost predictable it will show itself at some point in a game and it always does to some extent. If I see that go, I think we will have made a major step forward and to do that, Appleton has to work out what the cause is. If it is young players, we can improve them and it is an understandable issue. If it is senior players we need to get rid.3 -
I don't think he was tested a whole lot but others may remember better. Felt he got forward more, used the ball better and worked hard. Was like any pressure was relieved by playing on that side.se9addick said:
That’s good news. Was he tested much?Talal said:
Bizarrely looked more comfortable there than on the right.Covered_End_Lad said:Special mention to Tennai Watson who was excellent out of position at left back. We looked a lot better with him there than we have with Thomas the last few games.1 -
We played like a Championship side for 85 minutes! There was no soft underbelly in the starting XI and as for the depth, don't forget that people like Karoy Anderson (who might have been a better bet when closing out a game than Fraser) weren't even on the bench. That first half was the best half I've seen from Charlton in frankly ages. I know the water's been poisonous for a while but I'd say our glass was half full of it the other nightMuttleyCAFC said:I was a bit down after the game. Yes it was a victory but I have never thought we would be relegated, I need to see the proof we can get promoted. And I didn't see it on Tuesday night. I saw the proof we have some players much better than the League but there is a soft under belly that is almost predictable it will show itself at some point in a game and it always does to some extent. If I see that go, I think we will have made a major step forward and to do that, Appleton has to work out what the cause is. If it is young players, we can improve them and it is an understandable issue. If it is senior players we need to get rid.5 -
Agree. What's also really annoying is how many people don't understand the meaning of the word scapegoat.Covered End said:I find it so annoying that fans aren't allowed to make honest comments about a player's failings without it being called scapegoating.
Presumably, some feel we must praise every player, every game without exception, regardless of how they are performing.1 - Sponsored links:
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That’s kind of where my faith and positivity of finishing top 6 relies on. Tedic and Campbell will probably be recalled due to lack of game time and opens up spaces to try and make us defensively soundkafka said:
This is a priority for January. Appleton has expressed the need to bring in more experience (and steel). Should be easier task than finding creative and goalscoring players, which we now have plenty of.MuttleyCAFC said:I was a bit down after the game. Yes it was a victory but I have never thought we would be relegated, I need to see the proof we can get promoted. And I didn't see it on Tuesday night. I saw the proof we have some players much better than the League but there is a soft under belly that is almost predictable it will show itself at some point in a game and it always does to some extent. If I see that go, I think we will have made a major step forward and to do that, Appleton has to work out what the cause is. If it is young players, we can improve them and it is an understandable issue. If it is senior players we need to get rid.0 -
Finally!!SDAddick said:
I don't think that's true, if anything I think a lot of people are incredibly negative about some of our players who don't deserve it. As soon as a goal goes in the comments about us being shit crop up.Covered End said:I find it so annoying that fans aren't allowed to make honest comments about a player's failings without it being called scapegoating.
Presumably, some feel we must praise every player, every game without exception, regardless of how they are performing.
As far as the difference between "honest assessment" and "scapegoating," I think Scott Fraser is a good example. We have seen him have excellent matches for Charlton, there should be no doubt about his quality but moreso about how to get the best out of him. But there has been some "Fraser's shit" starting to creep in in the last 2-3 matches. And whilst he has not played well, we know that it's not because he's a bad footballer, but rather he's out of form and I think more likely just not fully fit. And to be fair, there are a lot of people who call that out, but it does seem like he is now the weak link in the team and the reason things go poorly, and that's not really true.
What gets me the most frustrated is when people make decisions based on one to two matches, and not a group of matches or a season or previous seasons. Comments about how "it was all falling" apart under Appleton after we lost two matches (one to the team in 2nd) after two months of going unbeaten. Fraser being another good example. And I get that over the last few years, when things start to go wrong at this club that they keep going wrong and so it's easy to default to that, but it's just not always the case.
This is exactly my point. Thankfully you managed to put it across a lot better than I did
Just do not understand the writing off and stick he's getting currently.
Almost as if people don't understand dips in form or recovery from injuries. These things do take time sometimes.1 -
Yea I totally get this.thenewbie said:
I mean, he literally did just that in this case due to his injury though I get the point you are making.Curbs_Ball said:
Not sure it's worth getting annoyed about mate. It was an observation.Covered End said:I find it so annoying that fans aren't allowed to make honest comments about a player's failings without it being called scapegoating.
Presumably, some feel we must praise every player, every game without exception, regardless of how they are performing.
I don't agree with people making out he's a problem in midfield, are people not allowed to defend players without it seeming like we must praise every player?
I got flagged up for this last week after my comments on Lincoln game, just don't get why it needs to be so literal.
Fraser doesn't go from a goal scoring midfielder and a key player for us to being an 'ambling' player over night, just doesn't happen like that.
The problem is with Fraser is that even fully fit he's not a high octane energetic player so a les fit version is no real use to anyone.
Someone has touched on I see, but we have a lot of options now in midfield and there are varied options which is only going to benefit us as a team.
There will be some matches which suit having Fraser in, or anyone else for that matter, and games where he won't be suited to others, that's football isn't it.1 -
Yep I am learning this thick and fastswordfish said:
Rare for everyone to agree on player performances. Everyone allowed to give their opinion. It is a team game played over ninety minutes though, so individual player critisism might cause less annoyance to those who feel the need to respond if made within that context.Covered End said:I find it so annoying that fans aren't allowed to make honest comments about a player's failings without it being called scapegoating.
Presumably, some feel we must praise every player, every game without exception, regardless of how they are performing.
I've been guilty of criticising the criticizers before. I've now learnt it's best to let it be. Well, most of the time 😉
I have not actually posted much since iv joined the forum but already have been shot down twice for trying to back a player or 2.
I came on here originally for a bit of Charlton chat and to hear some opinions but the negative criticism at times, usually from the same people, can be quite relentless.
Been going Charlton long enough to have seen who I think, is worthy of criticism or who isn't, like I always say, as an opinion.
Just seems that some like a doom and gloom regardless.
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I know exactly what scapegoat means mate and so did you when I put into the context of what I was talking about?Croydon said:
Agree. What's also really annoying is how many people don't understand the meaning of the word scapegoat.Covered End said:I find it so annoying that fans aren't allowed to make honest comments about a player's failings without it being called scapegoating.
Presumably, some feel we must praise every player, every game without exception, regardless of how they are performing.
Not quite sure how we can be talking about Fraser in so much depth on here when we had a brilliant away win and he played 20 mins of it!0 -
It probably was but I expected it to end the way it did when we were three up and another 5 minutes and we would probably have drawn that. It doesn't happen on the odd occasion, which is the problem. We were excellent for the first 20 minutes against Lincoln and then we were terrible. We were excellent in the second half against Bolton, I thought, but were weak in the first, where the game was lost. There is definitely quality there but the other side keeps rearing its head. Even against Reading, we were excellent in the second half but rubbish in the first. We need to start seeing 90 plus minute performances if we are going to achieve anything this season. I think seeing Camara go off so upset was also a big downer. You have to feel for the bloke.Leuth said:
We played like a Championship side for 85 minutes! There was no soft underbelly in the starting XI and as for the depth, don't forget that people like Karoy Anderson (who might have been a better bet when closing out a game than Fraser) weren't even on the bench. That first half was the best half I've seen from Charlton in frankly ages. I know the water's been poisonous for a while but I'd say our glass was half full of it the other nightMuttleyCAFC said:I was a bit down after the game. Yes it was a victory but I have never thought we would be relegated, I need to see the proof we can get promoted. And I didn't see it on Tuesday night. I saw the proof we have some players much better than the League but there is a soft under belly that is almost predictable it will show itself at some point in a game and it always does to some extent. If I see that go, I think we will have made a major step forward and to do that, Appleton has to work out what the cause is. If it is young players, we can improve them and it is an understandable issue. If it is senior players we need to get rid.1 -
If that goalkeepers volley had gone in at the end it would have ended me7
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I don't believe a single person on this forum believes players should only be praised. It's a laughable unsubstantiated claim. Nothing I've read leads me to that conclusion.Curbs_Ball said:
Yep I am learning this thick and fastswordfish said:
Rare for everyone to agree on player performances. Everyone allowed to give their opinion. It is a team game played over ninety minutes though, so individual player critisism might cause less annoyance to those who feel the need to respond if made within that context.Covered End said:I find it so annoying that fans aren't allowed to make honest comments about a player's failings without it being called scapegoating.
Presumably, some feel we must praise every player, every game without exception, regardless of how they are performing.
I've been guilty of criticising the criticizers before. I've now learnt it's best to let it be. Well, most of the time 😉
I have not actually posted much since iv joined the forum but already have been shot down twice for trying to back a player or 2.
I came on here originally for a bit of Charlton chat and to hear some opinions but the negative criticism at times, usually from the same people, can be quite relentless.
Been going Charlton long enough to have seen who I think, is worthy of criticism or who isn't, like I always say, as an opinion.
Just seems that some like a doom and gloom regardless.
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Recovering from injury or not, i'm not sure Fraser will fit into the high energy, high fitness team MA likes to assemble.
He is talented but he does genuinely struggle to get it about it seems.3 -
Totally agree mate.
I don't believe a single person on this forum believes players should only be praised. It's a laughable unsubstantiated claim. Nothing I've read leads me to that conclusion.
Yep I am learning this thick and fastswordfish said:
Rare for everyone to agree on player performances. Everyone allowed to give their opinion. It is a team game played over ninety minutes though, so individual player critisism might cause less annoyance to those who feel the need to respond if made within that context.Covered End said:I find it so annoying that fans aren't allowed to make honest comments about a player's failings without it being called scapegoating.
Presumably, some feel we must praise every player, every game without exception, regardless of how they are performing.
I've been guilty of criticising the criticizers before. I've now learnt it's best to let it be. Well, most of the time 😉
I have not actually posted much since iv joined the forum but already have been shot down twice for trying to back a player or 2.
I came on here originally for a bit of Charlton chat and to hear some opinions but the negative criticism at times, usually from the same people, can be quite relentless.
Been going Charlton long enough to have seen who I think, is worthy of criticism or who isn't, like I always say, as an opinion.
Just seems that some like a doom and gloom regardless.
I mean I do get the Kirk criticism after all 0 - Sponsored links:
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I haven't seen your comment, nor have I quoted it so not sure why you assume I'm talking about you.. It's a general theme on here, criticism = scapegoating, but they are not the same thing.Curbs_Ball said:
I know exactly what scapegoat means mate and so did you when I put into the context of what I was talking about?Croydon said:
Agree. What's also really annoying is how many people don't understand the meaning of the word scapegoat.Covered End said:I find it so annoying that fans aren't allowed to make honest comments about a player's failings without it being called scapegoating.
Presumably, some feel we must praise every player, every game without exception, regardless of how they are performing.
Not quite sure how we can be talking about Fraser in so much depth on here when we had a brilliant away win and he played 20 mins of it!1 -
Because I used that word in the context that were all referring to and talking about...?
I haven't seen your comment, nor have I quoted it so not sure why you assume I'm talking about you.. It's a general theme on here, criticism = scapegoating, but they are not the same thing.
I know exactly what scapegoat means mate and so did you when I put into the context of what I was talking about?Croydon said:
Agree. What's also really annoying is how many people don't understand the meaning of the word scapegoat.Covered End said:I find it so annoying that fans aren't allowed to make honest comments about a player's failings without it being called scapegoating.
Presumably, some feel we must praise every player, every game without exception, regardless of how they are performing.
Not quite sure how we can be talking about Fraser in so much depth on here when we had a brilliant away win and he played 20 mins of it!
General theme on here, relentless criticism = trying to find a negative on everything
Like I say, we won away from home, really good performance and people still talk about some players, Fraser in this example, who hardly did anything in 20 mins to even warrant a comment. So, in a football context, a "scapegoat" - a reason to have a moan.0 -
I would take a learning that we have to keep trying to score more, even when we are two or three up. We cannot defend a lead or even a nil nil with a cautious mindset. We have to play to the strengths of the team and indeed the clear weaknesses. Maybe we can change that in January, but there are a lot of games until then.0
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In January we need a centre back to partner Jones, the more the season goes on, the more I think Jones could improve. Hector on the other hand just doesn't seem to be our solution.
There are loads of good centre backs in this league, a fair few whos contracts are up in the summer so we could test their clubs resolves.
Chey Dunkley, Will Aimson, Carl Piergianni and Ryan Tafazolli. The first 3 all occupy spots in the top 10 of who scored player ratings, usually not a bad website to go by. I've been impressed by Dunkley & Piergianni in particular when we played them.
For those interested, May, CBT and Dobson, they rank 11th, 12th and 18th as a comparison.
January is huge, need to focus on staying in touching distance of the play-offs and exploit the players who contracts are coming to a close just like others will do to us when the time comes.5 -
I think hector has been "better" as of late but I digress, I'm surprised that you didn't mention abbey in your centre backs list there0
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I genuinely don't have a clue as to what comment you're on about. If I had an issue with what you specifically had said, I'd have quoted you or @ you. It really isn't that deep.Curbs_Ball said:
Because I used that word in the context that were all referring to and talking about...?
I haven't seen your comment, nor have I quoted it so not sure why you assume I'm talking about you.. It's a general theme on here, criticism = scapegoating, but they are not the same thing.
I know exactly what scapegoat means mate and so did you when I put into the context of what I was talking about?Croydon said:
Agree. What's also really annoying is how many people don't understand the meaning of the word scapegoat.Covered End said:I find it so annoying that fans aren't allowed to make honest comments about a player's failings without it being called scapegoating.
Presumably, some feel we must praise every player, every game without exception, regardless of how they are performing.
Not quite sure how we can be talking about Fraser in so much depth on here when we had a brilliant away win and he played 20 mins of it!
General theme on here, relentless criticism = trying to find a negative on everything
Like I say, we won away from home, really good performance and people still talk about some players, Fraser in this example, who hardly did anything in 20 mins to even warrant a comment. So, in a football context, a "scapegoat" - a reason to have a moan.0 -
Agree with Braziliance and expect we'll also see the likes of Chem Campbell and Abankwah return to their clubs and at least one will be replaced by a steely, aggressive midfielder who can help us sit in.0
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Can we return season-long loanees in January or would it only be if parent club recalled them?Chunes said:Agree with Braziliance and expect we'll also see the likes of Chem Campbell and Abankwah return to their clubs and at least one will be replaced by a steely, aggressive midfielder who can help us sit in.0 -
Doubt we are the target market for a highly rated 21 yo Club captain.LTKapal said:I think hector has been "better" as of late but I digress, I'm surprised that you didn't mention abbey in your centre backs list there
Maybe in 12 years time, then we can still pretend he's at his best.0 -
Faye, Traore, Lepoint.charltonbob said:
Faye wasn't even the worst player in that team, I give you Djimi TraoreFumbluff said:
I agree Faye was atrocious but come on Lepoint….Bedsaddick said:
Do you mean Amdy Faye. If so i agree. The worst player i have ever seen play for Charlton and that's a hell of a list to top.Athletico Charlton said:Kirk up there with Amdy Toure as one of my least favourite Charlton players ever, he is an utter disgrace; completely spineless player who is nicking a living.
Fraser I have always liked but we lost the midfield when he appeared and he was at partial fault for both goals.
Tedic came on and Shirtliff said something like, you want to see Tedic running hard to keep the ball in Wigan's half, he ambled around letting a knackered but forever willing Alfie May do all the running and closing down.
Could do with replacing all 3 of them in Jan.
First half was an absolute joy to watch and some of our footy was great, the defence was on the front foot. Most of the second half was quite even, their subs made a difference. Louis Watson is a proper diamond of a player, would love to get him perm but he will play for Luton in the Champ next season I imagine.
3 points is all that matters ultimately, and finally a win away - great for the 400 odd fans who travelled in the wet, stormy weather.
I thought Tickle, Humphreys, Asgaard and Goodi(?) All looked good for them.
In fact i'm sure Faye played a few games at centre back & wasn't too bad but overall another waste of money. What was it £4.5 million for Faye & Traore ?Another in the pantheon of duds - Pavel Abbott.
His displays are forever etched in my memory unfortunately.
Youve kicked me off now - JFH anyone.0
