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POST-MATCH THREAD: Portsmouth vs Charlton Athletic: Saturday 11th November 2023 | KO 3:00 PM
Comments
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Bloody international break incoming to ruin next weekend. Far too many in the early months of the season38
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I've yet to meet a football supporter who looks forward to an international break, they need to be played in 1 big block at the end of a seasonPelling1993 said:Bloody international break incoming to ruin next weekend. Far too many in the early months of the season26 -
An absolutely cracking day out. We met a few mates who are Portsmouth season ticket holders for pre-match beers and I was surprised how fatalistic they were about their prospects against us and of winning promotion. Their fear of Corey Blackett-Taylor was visceral and, in one or two cases, almost verging on terror. Suffice it to say that we did nothing to assuage those anxieties, emphasising how much Corey's end product has improved this season, although ironically he went on to have a very quiet game. One guy was regaling me with his memories of Derek Hales and Colin Powell during our 3-0 win at Fratton Park in an FA Cup replay in 1976 in front of over 30,000.
As for the game, we were under the cosh for the first 10 minutes or so but then took control and had a very good 20 minute spell, when we threatened their goal. Kamara's goal changed the momentum for the rest of the half but I felt we had played pretty well and were unfortunate to be behind. The second half was a different story, with Pompey dominating the play and we had Maynard-Brewer to thank for keeping us in the game. It was a great end to the match for us and a really exciting game of end-to-end football in front of a raucous full house. As Ron Manager would say: marvellous, isn't it.
As others have remarked, I don't think that Pompey are at the same level as Bolton but they are a well-drilled side, with plenty of experience and a couple of impressive loanees in Robertson and Kamara from Man City and Norwich respectively. Despite their excellent defensive record (only 10 league goals conceded before yesterday) they looked vulnerable on the occasions when we pressed them at the back and their disgraceful goalie and the full back ballsed it up at the end and nearly presented us with what would have been a smash and grab winner. That said, I was told that Charlton were the only team to come to Fratton Park this season and have a real go at them, so I don't think anyone could really begrudge us the point.
An excellent old school ground and my first experience of safe standing, which I thought was very good. One area that does need attention is the toilet facilities in the away end - a narrow concourse and one small urinal for 2,146 away fans is far from ideal, particularly for men of a certain vintage.
A very happy trip home on the train, with some fun chanting, my favourite being:
"Que Sera Sera, whatever will be will be, we're going to Cray Valley, Que Sera Sera".28 -
My mates and I at Fratton yesterday - cracking day - went to Portsmouth Harbour pre match - Ship Anson pub - lots of Pompey there - no issues with us, chatty, knowledgable, etc - train back to Fratton
Match - well they are a good side, but nowhere near Ipswich last season, as in league leaders - we weathered the storm first 10, then grew into it - worldie goal for them - we went into our shell
2nd half, end to end - Alfie, well, what a goal - he is mustard - and he loves CAFC - that is clear - that was a proper striker finish - high quality - how the hell he spent so long in non league 🤷
Penalty - madness by AMB, but countered by the saves he made
2nd equaliser - utter scenes in away end - deserved
BUT if only Dobbo had squared at the right time…….
It would have been a smash and grab 😀🗡️4 -
After Saturday's game, that's Jones and Hector on 4 bookings as well as May and Dobson.
Anyone know when these bookings get "written off"? Is it the end of this month?0 -
As I have said before, 19 league games. That is for 5 yellows, and then move on to 10Fortune 82nd Minute said:After Saturday's game, that's Jones and Hector on 4 bookings as well as May and Dobson.
Anyone know when these bookings get "written off"? Is it the end of this month?0 -
I keep reading about Dobson's miss at the end, unfortunately none of the highlights show it. Has anyone got a clip of it. Thank you1
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Nothing as far as i can see Ross, it wasn't really a miss by Dobson, just a slightly heavy touch from tired legs in the last minute in the box, that just put the ball too far in front of him to be able to set up Alfie for a tap in, and the chance was gone...real shame though that was...ross1 said:I keep reading about Dobson's miss at the end, unfortunately none of the highlights show it. Has anyone got a clip of it. Thank you3 -
Not a miss - he was through, but if he had squared it, rather than overrunning it (so keeper could smother) it was 99% the winning goal, with Fraser in acres on the pen spotross1 said:I keep reading about Dobson's miss at the end, unfortunately none of the highlights show it. Has anyone got a clip of it. Thank you4 -
Not stuck on the CV result. The players who played were senior players and some had little to no professionalism in that game and there's no escaping that.RonnieMoore said:
but that wasn’t these players .. don’t know why are so stuck in CV .. 11 changes 3 who had not kicked a ball in months 25 shots to 1 .. it’s called a cup tie these things happen…. Would people really swap the 4 points at Wigan and Pompey for a win v Cray Valleyking addick said:Would have happily taken a draw at Fratton Park so very pleased.
Think MA has come in and is changing the mindset bit by bit ( bar Cray) and these players will keep going and going until the full time whistle. Haven't seen that for a very long time by a Charlton team.
However, there have been games where have showed grit and determination to get results against teams that have played better. It won't be overnight but a game like yesterday this team a year ago would have folded mentally last season...100%4 -
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Was at the FA Cup replay in 76. Queues were bad getting in and we missed the start. Ended up behind the goal Pompey end and had to keep quiet when the goals went in. Got chased all the way to the station and the old bill had to close the station to stop Pompey supporters getting to is. A great night though.Blucher said:An absolutely cracking day out. We met a few mates who are Portsmouth season ticket holders for pre-match beers and I was surprised how fatalistic they were about their prospects against us and of winning promotion. Their fear of Corey Blackett-Taylor was visceral and, in one or two cases, almost verging on terror. Suffice it to say that we did nothing to assuage those anxieties, emphasising how much Corey's end product has improved this season, although ironically he went on to have a very quiet game. One guy was regaling me with his memories of Derek Hales and Colin Powell during our 3-0 win at Fratton Park in an FA Cup replay in 1976 in front of over 30,000.
As for the game, we were under the cosh for the first 10 minutes or so but then took control and had a very good 20 minute spell, when we threatened their goal. Kamara's goal changed the momentum for the rest of the half but I felt we had played pretty well and were unfortunate to be behind. The second half was a different story, with Pompey dominating the play and we had Maynard-Brewer to thank for keeping us in the game. It was a great end to the match for us and a really exciting game of end-to-end football in front of a raucous full house. As Ron Manager would say: marvellous, isn't it.
As others have remarked, I don't think that Pompey are at the same level as Bolton but they are a well-drilled side, with plenty of experience and a couple of impressive loanees in Robertson and Kamara from Man City and Norwich respectively. Despite their excellent defensive record (only 10 league goals conceded before yesterday) they looked vulnerable on the occasions when we pressed them at the back and their disgraceful goalie and the full back ballsed it up at the end and nearly presented us with what would have been a smash and grab winner. That said, I was told that Charlton were the only team to come to Fratton Park this season and have a real go at them, so I don't think anyone could really begrudge us the point.
An excellent old school ground and my first experience of safe standing, which I thought was very good. One area that does need attention is the toilet facilities in the away end - a narrow concourse and one small urinal for 2,146 away fans is far from ideal, particularly for men of a certain vintage.
A very happy trip home on the train, with some fun chanting, my favourite being:
"Que Sera Sera, whatever will be will be, we're going to Cray Valley, Que Sera Sera".4 -
Video up for it now:
https://youtu.be/qyerMEPgqfI?si=CvqxVvu-CKXBNIdQ
Thoughts on the game are, Pompey were evidently the more skilled side, but you can't fault our fighting effort. The players actually bothered to play and the results paid off in the end.
Good result but we now need to win these next run of 3 games imo, all very favourable in Carlisle (a), Cheltenham (h), Cambridge (h), need 7 points minimum imo to take the pressure off the Barnsley game.
After that we then have Burton (h), Leyton Orient (a), Bristol Rovers (a) before Oxford at home. All teams in a similar position to us.
Type of games we need to find some form till January where I hope, the new owners back us
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Braziliance said:Video up for it now:https://youtu.be/qyerMEPgqfI?si=CvqxVvu-CKXBNIdQ
Thoughts on the game are, Pompey were evidently the more skilled side, but you can't fault our fighting effort. The players actually bothered to play and the results paid off in the end.
Good result but we now need to win these next run of 3 games imo, all very favourable in Carlisle (a), Cheltenham (h), Cambridge (h), need 7 points minimum imo to take the pressure off the Barnsley game.
After that we then have Burton (h), Leyton Orient (a), Bristol Rovers (a) before Oxford at home. All teams in a similar position to us.
Type of games we need to find some form till January where I hope, the new owners back us
Great video mate, and you reckon your old with your bad back do ya, well, in that case there is no hope for me mate...🙄2 -
I pulled it in the most ridiculous fashion as well.eastterrace6168 said:Braziliance said:Video up for it now:https://youtu.be/qyerMEPgqfI?si=CvqxVvu-CKXBNIdQ
Thoughts on the game are, Pompey were evidently the more skilled side, but you can't fault our fighting effort. The players actually bothered to play and the results paid off in the end.
Good result but we now need to win these next run of 3 games imo, all very favourable in Carlisle (a), Cheltenham (h), Cambridge (h), need 7 points minimum imo to take the pressure off the Barnsley game.
After that we then have Burton (h), Leyton Orient (a), Bristol Rovers (a) before Oxford at home. All teams in a similar position to us.
Type of games we need to find some form till January where I hope, the new owners back us
Great video mate, and you reckon your old with your bad back do ya, well, in that case there is no hope for me mate...🙄
I pulled something down from the top shelf (no not a dirty mag), a crate of Dr Peppers. Felt a funny little snap when I did and thought nothing of it.
Walked back to the car with the crate under my armpit and all of a sudden boom, back goes sharp. Sort of slung myself into the car and got indoors, felt tragic as I had to sort of throw myself into bed to avoid leaning over.
So it turns out those Dr Pepper ads back in the day were horses**t and certainly the worst can happen.0 -
I actually agree with this.agim said:Sat in the home end with some Pompey mates and basically spent the day as a "Pompey Fan" and I've got to say I'm envious of their fan base and set up down there. Packed out ground, loads of noise and a real buzz around the place. Being top of the league helps I just feel we are missing that at the moment.
Not to slag off at our fans at all as we are mostly a decent bunch and we do well.
I just couldn't help but feel a little envious walking away from Fratton Park on how animated their whole ground looked when they scored and the place being full. Last time I remember seeing us at home like that was vs Doncaster in the play offs.
You could feel a match day buzz in the area. Makes me wonder if we suffer from having a bigger ground. Years of incompetence has made our home atmosphere really suffer imo.
I don't doubt it would be a different story if we drew a side like Liverpool in the cup. I just wish we could have big crowds and a real buzz for any league fixtures.0 -
Being top of league helps no end. I went fratton park last season and there wasn't much buzz around to be honest. Only to get cowley sacked.Braziliance said:
I actually agree with this.agim said:Sat in the home end with some Pompey mates and basically spent the day as a "Pompey Fan" and I've got to say I'm envious of their fan base and set up down there. Packed out ground, loads of noise and a real buzz around the place. Being top of the league helps I just feel we are missing that at the moment.
Not to slag off at our fans at all as we are mostly a decent bunch and we do well.
I just couldn't help but feel a little envious walking away from Fratton Park on how animated their whole ground looked when they scored and the place being full. Last time I remember seeing us at home like that was vs Doncaster in the play offs.
You could feel a match day buzz in the area. Makes me wonder if we suffer from having a bigger ground. Years of incompetence has made our home atmosphere really suffer imo.
I don't doubt it would be a different story if we drew a side like Liverpool in the cup. I just wish we could have big crowds and a real buzz for any league fixtures.7 -
Couldn't be something to do with being top of the league could it, and also almost an expectance of getting something from every game, after there canny luck of getting wins in the 96th minute, as they say nothing like winning to draw in the crowds...we will get back to that, just hope it's soon though...Braziliance said:
I actually agree with this.agim said:Sat in the home end with some Pompey mates and basically spent the day as a "Pompey Fan" and I've got to say I'm envious of their fan base and set up down there. Packed out ground, loads of noise and a real buzz around the place. Being top of the league helps I just feel we are missing that at the moment.
Not to slag off at our fans at all as we are mostly a decent bunch and we do well.
I just couldn't help but feel a little envious walking away from Fratton Park on how animated their whole ground looked when they scored and the place being full. Last time I remember seeing us at home like that was vs Doncaster in the play offs.
You could feel a match day buzz in the area. Makes me wonder if we suffer from having a bigger ground. Years of incompetence has made our home atmosphere really suffer imo.
I don't doubt it would be a different story if we drew a side like Liverpool in the cup. I just wish we could have big crowds and a real buzz for any league fixtures.2 -
Yeah fair points, I am only speaking of the times when I go there and how good it looks.
I know of at least 10 people that would go to Charlton if we were in the championship or playing well. Not ideal but that's the nature of the game I suppose.
Oh to emphasise as well, their goalie is an utter bellend. I can't get over how he went down when May went near him and put his leg up. Was the most pathetic attempt at play acting I've ever seen. 2-2 was the least he deserved.2 -
If we had a defence we would be unbeatable , no problem going forward but the back line are shaky , should have nicked it at the end as well but a very poor touch , good away point lads2
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Would you consider us selling Dobson and CBT, and bringing in some freebies as the Owners backing us?
That's all I can see happen sadly:(1 -
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Another good day out at Portsmouth and liked the safe standing.
I thought they looked a good team with all you need to go up on this league. They controlled the midfield and in turn controlled the game for large parts. They are strong and physical and can play, the number 8 was the best player on the pitch. I think we did do well against them though and could have nicked it at the end, Dobbo looked gutted with himself after the final whistle.
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I would say we need more. I think our midfield, as much as they show fight, lack creativity and a real control of the game. Bolton, Portsmouth and Lincoln controlled the game a bit more in the middle and did more with the ball. We tend to only have the ball more when chasing results from behind. The midfield is a big reason we are struggling to keep clean sheets along with the defenders. I can confidently say it has nothing to do with our strikers defensive duties as Leaburn and especially May are fairly relentless.Mezza07 said:If we had a defence we would be unbeatable , no problem going forward but the back line are shaky , should have nicked it at the end as well but a very poor touch , good away point lads
I also think as much as Tyreece and especially CBT are having good seasons, they don't do enough off the ball. Tyreece shirks a bit and CBT doesn't support the fullback enough at times. It's no coincidence Lincoln and Portsmouth had such a comfortable time down our left side. I look at Boltons wide players, Pompeys and Lincolns for that particular game and they just seemed to offer more. Again I ain't saying Corey is the problem at all but when both of your wingers don't defend it is a problem if your team don't control the ball in the middle of the park.
Full backs are a bit of a concern for me also, I feel like none of then are showing enough. They're all better at attacking than 1 on 1 defending which is a problem when we play so attacking on the wings. I can't rate any of them near a prime Solly or Dijksteel though, wingers look too effective against us in a fair few games this season.
We have some really good players for this level but I think we need a few more bodies in. A new left back, right back, centre back, creative midfielder and maybe even another striker. Our bench looks weak atm and not many players could come on to make a difference. Fortunately it was McGrandles this time but we certainly lack strength in depth.
I reckon we could sneak play offs and have a chance at winning them as it is a lottery, but regardless of promotion or staying here next season, we are going to need quite the rebuild imho.14 -
That kind of rebuild won’t happen in a January window. I’d focus on CB, LB and RW.Braziliance said:
I would say we need more. I think our midfield, as much as they show fight, lack creativity and a real control of the game. Bolton, Portsmouth and Lincoln controlled the game a bit more in the middle and did more with the ball. We tend to only have the ball more when chasing results from behind. The midfield is a big reason we are struggling to keep clean sheets along with the defenders. I can confidently say it has nothing to do with our strikers defensive duties as Leaburn and especially May are fairly relentless.Mezza07 said:If we had a defence we would be unbeatable , no problem going forward but the back line are shaky , should have nicked it at the end as well but a very poor touch , good away point lads
I also think as much as Tyreece and especially CBT are having good seasons, they don't do enough off the ball. Tyreece shirks a bit and CBT doesn't support the fullback enough at times. It's no coincidence Lincoln and Portsmouth had such a comfortable time down our left side. I look at Boltons wide players, Pompeys and Lincolns for that particular game and they just seemed to offer more. Again I ain't saying Corey is the problem at all but when both of your wingers don't defend it is a problem if your team don't control the ball in the middle of the park.
Full backs are a bit of a concern for me also, I feel like none of then are showing enough. They're all better at attacking than 1 on 1 defending which is a problem when we play so attacking on the wings. I can't rate any of them near a prime Solly or Dijksteel though, wingers look too effective against us in a fair few games this season.
We have some really good players for this level but I think we need a few more bodies in. A new left back, right back, centre back, creative midfielder and maybe even another striker. Our bench looks weak atm and not many players could come on to make a difference. Fortunately it was McGrandles this time but we certainly lack strength in depth.
I reckon we could sneak play offs and have a chance at winning them as it is a lottery, but regardless of promotion or staying here next season, we are going to need quite the rebuild imho.We’ve got 2 good right backs, Watson is looking better now he’s fitter, and Asiimwe is young so will improve and we shouldn’t sign a right back to block his pathway.We have too many central midfielders as it is, and in Watson and Fraser we have 2 creative midfielders. Fraser looked a bit better on Saturday so hopefully he will be his normal self soon
Thinking about it I would probably like another striker too actually, if we send Tedic back we could probably upgrade there and get someone we actually trust to be good enough to start games3 -
Hear what you are saying Braziliance and on the surface we don't look good or organised in several positions, but is it just a case of shipping out and shipping in replacements, I'm not convinced, and the problem could lie on the training ground and the people involved in training these apparent failures....
Agreed we need support for Alfie, but the rest...not so sure, but agree some experience is needed to be instilled into the squad...1 -
Probably our biggest squad imbalance is the fact that three of our highest earners, who should be key players, aren't adding any value to the team. Aneke, Camara and Kirk. Two of those will likely still be here next season and we'll be in the same scenario.5
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Oh yeah no chance, I will be gobsmacked if we make any kind of statement signing in January. I did notice that Clarke-Harris was an unused substitute in Peterbroughs 5 nil win over Cambridge, might be preparing for life without him..never know. I think that would be the kind of signing that could see us over the line but I suspect a side like Derby will pick him up.NabySarr said:
That kind of rebuild won’t happen in a January window. I’d focus on CB, LB and RW.Braziliance said:
I would say we need more. I think our midfield, as much as they show fight, lack creativity and a real control of the game. Bolton, Portsmouth and Lincoln controlled the game a bit more in the middle and did more with the ball. We tend to only have the ball more when chasing results from behind. The midfield is a big reason we are struggling to keep clean sheets along with the defenders. I can confidently say it has nothing to do with our strikers defensive duties as Leaburn and especially May are fairly relentless.Mezza07 said:If we had a defence we would be unbeatable , no problem going forward but the back line are shaky , should have nicked it at the end as well but a very poor touch , good away point lads
I also think as much as Tyreece and especially CBT are having good seasons, they don't do enough off the ball. Tyreece shirks a bit and CBT doesn't support the fullback enough at times. It's no coincidence Lincoln and Portsmouth had such a comfortable time down our left side. I look at Boltons wide players, Pompeys and Lincolns for that particular game and they just seemed to offer more. Again I ain't saying Corey is the problem at all but when both of your wingers don't defend it is a problem if your team don't control the ball in the middle of the park.
Full backs are a bit of a concern for me also, I feel like none of then are showing enough. They're all better at attacking than 1 on 1 defending which is a problem when we play so attacking on the wings. I can't rate any of them near a prime Solly or Dijksteel though, wingers look too effective against us in a fair few games this season.
We have some really good players for this level but I think we need a few more bodies in. A new left back, right back, centre back, creative midfielder and maybe even another striker. Our bench looks weak atm and not many players could come on to make a difference. Fortunately it was McGrandles this time but we certainly lack strength in depth.
I reckon we could sneak play offs and have a chance at winning them as it is a lottery, but regardless of promotion or staying here next season, we are going to need quite the rebuild imho.We’ve got 2 good right backs, Watson is looking better now he’s fitter, and Asiimwe is young so will improve and we shouldn’t sign a right back to block his pathway.We have too many central midfielders as it is, and in Watson and Fraser we have 2 creative midfielders. Fraser looked a bit better on Saturday so hopefully he will be his normal self soon
Thinking about it I would probably like another striker too actually, if we send Tedic back we could probably upgrade there and get someone we actually trust to be good enough to start games
I think Pan getting injured was a huge loss, kind of player that has the engine and ball carrying capabilities for those bigger games. We don't have enough player at the club who can do it except maybe Louie Watson and sporadically Dobbo when he turns into a dribbling machine.
Without sounding toxic and writing them off, I do hope we can send back the likes of Tedic and get Kirk off the books, happy to be wrong but don't see them contributing.
January will be an interesting window for sure2 -
Yeah I am not sure if we will, more hoping so, I think we have a fair few players that are high end of this league, but to get promoted we just need a bit more qualify, right now I see us finishing anywhere between 5th to 10th. Peterborough are exceeding my expectations, so are Stevenage massively and I have to be honest and say I didn't expect Oxford to be doing so well. Had Bolton, Derby and Portsmouth nailed on for top6 with Barnsley also likely.eastterrace6168 said:Hear what you are saying Braziliance and on the surface we don't look good or organised in several positions, but is it just a case of shipping out and shipping in replacements, I'm not convinced, and the problem could lie on the training ground and the people involved in training these apparent failures....
Agreed we need support for Alfie, but the rest...not so sure, but agree some experience is needed to be instilled into the squad...
Right now I'd say the top3 probably won't change (as in wont drop out of the top6) so we are fighting it out with a minimum of 5 sides for 3 slots, maybe 2. Going to be tough.1 -
So, if you say that Peterborough, Stevenage, and Oxford are exceeding expectations, which I agree with you on, is this because they have better players on paper than us, i'm not so sure on that one, or is it the infrastructure at the club, and the way the training regime is set up that just gets the best out of these players,....i'd say it is probably the latter.Braziliance said:
Yeah I am not sure if we will, more hoping so, I think we have a fair few players that are high end of this league, but to get promoted we just need a bit more qualify, right now I see us finishing anywhere between 5th to 10th. Peterborough are exceeding my expectations, so are Stevenage massively and I have to be honest and say I didn't expect Oxford to be doing so well. Had Bolton, Derby and Portsmouth nailed on for top6 with Barnsley also likely.eastterrace6168 said:Hear what you are saying Braziliance and on the surface we don't look good or organised in several positions, but is it just a case of shipping out and shipping in replacements, I'm not convinced, and the problem could lie on the training ground and the people involved in training these apparent failures....
Agreed we need support for Alfie, but the rest...not so sure, but agree some experience is needed to be instilled into the squad...
Right now I'd say the top3 probably won't change (as in wont drop out of the top6) so we are fighting it out with a minimum of 5 sides for 3 slots, maybe 2. Going to be tough.0 -
It doesn’t matter who we have in defence if we’re going to allow players unmarked on the edge of the box at corners!
It’s so frustrating that we still can’t get the basics right.
We have everyone back when defending corners. I can’t remember Alfie winning a defensive header!
This is the sort of stuff that needs sorting.6 -
I don't know if we can keep blaming the coaching, although obviously it will play a part. Take last year for instance. We had MacG in goal, Innis in defence, both now L2. Stockley & Bonne. Albie Morgan. Could coaching turn that lot into a good team, I'm not sure.eastterrace6168 said:
So, if you say that Peterborough, Stevenage, and Oxford are exceeding expectations, which I agree with you on, is this because they have better players on paper than us, i'm not so sure on that one, or is it the infrastructure at the club, and the way the training regime is set up that just gets the best out of these players,....i'd say it is probably the latter.Braziliance said:
Yeah I am not sure if we will, more hoping so, I think we have a fair few players that are high end of this league, but to get promoted we just need a bit more qualify, right now I see us finishing anywhere between 5th to 10th. Peterborough are exceeding my expectations, so are Stevenage massively and I have to be honest and say I didn't expect Oxford to be doing so well. Had Bolton, Derby and Portsmouth nailed on for top6 with Barnsley also likely.eastterrace6168 said:Hear what you are saying Braziliance and on the surface we don't look good or organised in several positions, but is it just a case of shipping out and shipping in replacements, I'm not convinced, and the problem could lie on the training ground and the people involved in training these apparent failures....
Agreed we need support for Alfie, but the rest...not so sure, but agree some experience is needed to be instilled into the squad...
Right now I'd say the top3 probably won't change (as in wont drop out of the top6) so we are fighting it out with a minimum of 5 sides for 3 slots, maybe 2. Going to be tough.
I might be wrong but I don't think any of the coaching staff from that year are even around this year either. Scott has cleared them out.
I'm not gonna pretend I know anything about Stevenage, but teams like Peterborough and Oxford and have had consistency in their recruitment for years, while we've been signing players who've proven they're not good enough.
Some of the coaching has no doubt been dreadful. Set pieces for example.0
