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Sidcup: Hundreds of motorists fined over A20 road sign error

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  • Karim_myBagheri
    Karim_myBagheri Posts: 12,697
    Chris_from_Sidcup said:
    Rizzo said:
    I believe the 40mph limit was at least partially a result of this:

    https://youtu.be/-9F_siRXT6I

    I still think 40 is ridiculous though. Just drive to the bloody conditions!!
    I like the guy in the blue t-shirt who just casually strolls over to his car without a care in the world. His car has been semi-destroyed and he walks over as though a leaf landed on it.
    All planned. Classic insurance job. 
  • swords_alive
    swords_alive Posts: 4,258
    Chris_from_Sidcup said:
    Rizzo said:
    I believe the 40mph limit was at least partially a result of this:

    https://youtu.be/-9F_siRXT6I

    I still think 40 is ridiculous though. Just drive to the bloody conditions!!
    I like the guy in the blue t-shirt who just casually strolls over to his car without a care in the world. His car has been semi-destroyed and he walks over as though a leaf landed on it.
    Thought the same. Any spark and it's game over in a large fire ball surely. Then thought but its raining. So short sleeves in the rain was his first problem then this happens!
  • BalladMan
    BalladMan Posts: 1,113
    Does anyone else find it odd that 
    1. This footage has leaked
    2. That the people that leaked it are just sitting there laughing at the events unfolded.

    Its not clear if this is the audio of people who witnessed it, but if it is, sums up peoples empathy in 2024 that they would rather have a chuckle than help a fellow human being.   
  • Rob7Lee
    Rob7Lee Posts: 9,594
    Off_it said:
    So, now that the explanation and video are on here can we all agree that, in this particular instance, it seems there is a good reason for lowering the speed limit and it's not just a money making scheme?

    I mean, that footage is horrific.
    Whilst I broadly agree, putting up a speed camera would indicate it may have something to do with money, we don't have cameras everywhere, and oddly they put one up just as they lower the speed limit. Me thinks they knew it'd raise a fair amount of cash from those who didn't realise the change.

    The main beef though is the road sign saying 50mph but tickets (and the cameras) were set and issued for 40mph speed limit. 
  • Off_it
    Off_it Posts: 28,845
    BalladMan said:
    Does anyone else find it odd that 
    1. This footage has leaked
    2. That the people that leaked it are just sitting there laughing at the events unfolded.

    Its not clear if this is the audio of people who witnessed it, but if it is, sums up peoples empathy in 2024 that they would rather have a chuckle than help a fellow human being.   
    It's clearly CCTV footage with no audio, not a live stream.

    I agree it's a bit moronic to laugh, but then there's no end of "Crashes on camera" films out there, so some people clearly do enjoy them. But I don't think you can accuse them of doing nothing to help.
  • cantersaddick
    cantersaddick Posts: 16,911
    edited February 2024
    I live in New Eltham and get on there just by Fiveways when driving into Kent to see family. Noticed the change from 70-40 on that stretch a few months ago. Luckily I had google maps on for traffic updates and it told me it was 40. There are plenty of signs. 

    I did look into it, as it is a little annoying and found out (thanks to a bunch of articles posted on Nextdoor app) its not just as a result of the flooding but also the slip road back on to the A20 by McDonalds is too short. It no longer meets safety requirements for a 70mph road and it was reviewed after a series of accidents along there one of them serious and was a factor in the speed limit change. 

    It is annoying (particularly when others make it dangerous by deciding to either ignore it or get too close behind you when you are going 40) but I get it. Should probably have been 50 rather than 40 past Sidcup though.

    Edit. having looked for it though I cant for the life of me find the article I read about the McDonalds slip road. Maybe its been taken down and was simply speculation? 
  • cantersaddick
    cantersaddick Posts: 16,911
    Rob7Lee said:
    Off_it said:
    So, now that the explanation and video are on here can we all agree that, in this particular instance, it seems there is a good reason for lowering the speed limit and it's not just a money making scheme?

    I mean, that footage is horrific.
    Whilst I broadly agree, putting up a speed camera would indicate it may have something to do with money, we don't have cameras everywhere, and oddly they put one up just as they lower the speed limit. Me thinks they knew it'd raise a fair amount of cash from those who didn't realise the change.

    The main beef though is the road sign saying 50mph but tickets (and the cameras) were set and issued for 40mph speed limit. 
    Cameras were already there enforcing the previous 50 then 70 mph speed limit. They were just adjusted when the speed limit changed. There have always been cameras along that stretch of road.
  • RedRobin
    RedRobin Posts: 1,377
    Yep been done for this, waiting on a date to attend a speeding awareness course. The issue is, I knew it was 40 but didn’t know there was camera, first offence so won’t be challenging it. I feel sorry for those that have received 4/5 letters and likely to lose their licence. 
  • Rob7Lee
    Rob7Lee Posts: 9,594
    edited February 2024
    cantersaddick said:
    Rob7Lee said:
    Off_it said:
    So, now that the explanation and video are on here can we all agree that, in this particular instance, it seems there is a good reason for lowering the speed limit and it's not just a money making scheme?

    I mean, that footage is horrific.
    Whilst I broadly agree, putting up a speed camera would indicate it may have something to do with money, we don't have cameras everywhere, and oddly they put one up just as they lower the speed limit. Me thinks they knew it'd raise a fair amount of cash from those who didn't realise the change.

    The main beef though is the road sign saying 50mph but tickets (and the cameras) were set and issued for 40mph speed limit. 
    Cameras were already there enforcing the previous 50 then 70 mph speed limit. They were just adjusted when the speed limit changed. There have always been cameras along that stretch of road.
    They put a new one up.

    EDIT, the last camera heading south used to be opposite the Nuffield Health, the new camera is down by the McDonalds (it's actually an average speed so there's a camera a mile back also).
  • Braziliance
    Braziliance Posts: 8,353
    edited February 2024
    Off_it said:
    So, now that the explanation and video are on here can we all agree that, in this particular instance, it seems there is a good reason for lowering the speed limit and it's not just a money making scheme?

    I mean, that footage is horrific.
    How many times has that type of incident happened on that road though? It's just a case of a driver driving recklessly and not driving to the conditions I'd say.

    I would say the driver needs to be looked at more than the speed limit, otherwise, why weren't multiple cars doing it as well if it was down to the speed limit?

    One twat ruining it for the rest of us who like speeding, typical 
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  • Rob7Lee
    Rob7Lee Posts: 9,594
    Braziliance said:
    Off_it said:
    So, now that the explanation and video are on here can we all agree that, in this particular instance, it seems there is a good reason for lowering the speed limit and it's not just a money making scheme?

    I mean, that footage is horrific.
    How many times has that type of incident happened on that road though? It's just a case of a driver driving recklessly and not driving to the conditions I'd say.

    I would say the driver needs to be looked at more than the speed limit, otherwise, why weren't multiple cars doing it as well if it was down to the speed limit?

    One twat ruining it for the rest of us who like speeding, typical 
    https://foi.tfl.gov.uk/FOI-2679-2324/Transport%20For%20London-%20A20%20SIDCUP%20BYPASS%20ROAD%20-%20SWANLEY%20PETROL%20STATION-%20SUMMARY%20-%2028.06.2023.pdf

    About 11 in recent years to varying severity.

    You could and should argue the time and money spent on the cameras etc could have been spent on actually fixing the problem, call me a cynic but.............
  • Braziliance
    Braziliance Posts: 8,353
    Rob7Lee said:
    Braziliance said:
    Off_it said:
    So, now that the explanation and video are on here can we all agree that, in this particular instance, it seems there is a good reason for lowering the speed limit and it's not just a money making scheme?

    I mean, that footage is horrific.
    How many times has that type of incident happened on that road though? It's just a case of a driver driving recklessly and not driving to the conditions I'd say.

    I would say the driver needs to be looked at more than the speed limit, otherwise, why weren't multiple cars doing it as well if it was down to the speed limit?

    One twat ruining it for the rest of us who like speeding, typical 
    https://foi.tfl.gov.uk/FOI-2679-2324/Transport%20For%20London-%20A20%20SIDCUP%20BYPASS%20ROAD%20-%20SWANLEY%20PETROL%20STATION-%20SUMMARY%20-%2028.06.2023.pdf

    About 11 in recent years to varying severity.

    You could and should argue the time and money spent on the cameras etc could have been spent on actually fixing the problem, call me a cynic but.............
    And I wonder out of how many cars passing through. 

    Driving in London is dreadful, and it gets worse every year. Feels like there's something trying to catch you out every other road in some areas. 
  • seth plum
    seth plum Posts: 53,448
    I live where fast roads from the coast and Kent suddenly hit single carriageways. In the past a lot of drivers have struggled to adjust thundering along when they reach the Lee area, and it was dangerous as a consequence. 
    Lewisham is now a 20mph Borough, and I think the roads have become safer as a result.
  • soapy_jones
    soapy_jones Posts: 21,350
    Back to the crash.  How much more catastrophic could that of been? 

    The absolute bellend driving is lucky him and his passenger, as well as anyone else in the vacinity are still here!

  • golfaddick
    golfaddick Posts: 33,624
    Using that stretch of the A20 weekly for the past 10 years I first noticed around xmas time (might have been Boxing Day) that the 50mph sign/camera heading out of London opposite Flamingos had changed to 40 (yes, I've always sped up at that point after leaving fiveways & before getting to QM Hospital. I then kept looking for the 40's to change to 50 & noticed they didnt even past the BP/Macdonald's and up to the M25 junction.

    Funny how the same stretch going the other way is still 70 until you hit the Orpington/Foots Cray junction where it reduces to 50. Does the road 5 yards the other side of the barrier not flood too then 🤔.
  • RaplhMilne
    RaplhMilne Posts: 4,601
    golfaddick said:m
    Using that stretch of the A20 weekly for the past 10 years I first noticed around xmas time (might have been Boxing Day) that the 50mph sign/camera heading out of London opposite Flamingos had changed to 40 (yes, I've always sped up at that point after leaving fiveways & before getting to QM Hospital. I then kept looking for the 40's to change to 50 & noticed they didnt even past the BP/Macdonald's and up to the M25 junction.

    Funny how the same stretch going the other way is still 70 until you hit the Orpington/Foots Cray junction where it reduces to 50. Does the road 5 yards the other side of the barrier not flood too then 🤔.
    No part of the reason for the flooding is the road is in a dip. But on top of that the London bound carriage way has a distinct slope towards the Kent bound.
  • Rizzo
    Rizzo Posts: 6,431
    edited February 2024
    cantersaddick said:
    Rob7Lee said:
    Off_it said:
    So, now that the explanation and video are on here can we all agree that, in this particular instance, it seems there is a good reason for lowering the speed limit and it's not just a money making scheme?

    I mean, that footage is horrific.
    Whilst I broadly agree, putting up a speed camera would indicate it may have something to do with money, we don't have cameras everywhere, and oddly they put one up just as they lower the speed limit. Me thinks they knew it'd raise a fair amount of cash from those who didn't realise the change.

    The main beef though is the road sign saying 50mph but tickets (and the cameras) were set and issued for 40mph speed limit. 
    Cameras were already there enforcing the previous 50 then 70 mph speed limit. They were just adjusted when the speed limit changed. There have always been cameras along that stretch of road.
    There were no cameras previously coastbound between about half a mile before the Queen Mary's roundabout and just before Junction 4 on the M20. They added the new average speed cameras up to the BP garage when they reduced the limit from 50/70 to 40. It's hard not to think there's at least an element of monetary consideration that went into that decision. 
  • shirty5
    shirty5 Posts: 19,220
    https://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/a20-sidcup-south-east-london-fines-40mph-40mph-speeding-tickets-limit-b1137040.html
  • Plaaayer
    Plaaayer Posts: 8,997
    edited February 2024
    Off_it said:
    So, now that the explanation and video are on here can we all agree that, in this particular instance, it seems there is a good reason for lowering the speed limit and it's not just a money making scheme?

    I mean, that footage is horrific.
    There’s about a 10 foot patch in that area where the water settles and you end up aquaplaning, I know because I’ve done it myself a few times so know to avoid it. Surely rather than making the whole rest of the road for about 5 miles 40mph it would be better to fix the part that’s causing the issue? You’re still going to do plenty of damage if you hit that patch of water at 40 mph. 
  • jimmymelrose
    jimmymelrose Posts: 9,750
    Chris_from_Sidcup said:
    Rizzo said:
    I believe the 40mph limit was at least partially a result of this:

    https://youtu.be/-9F_siRXT6I

    I still think 40 is ridiculous though. Just drive to the bloody conditions!!
    I like the guy in the blue t-shirt who just casually strolls over to his car without a care in the world. His car has been semi-destroyed and he walks over as though a leaf landed on it.
    Yes, but the really surprising thing is his clothing for such conditions. 
    If he was one of my children, I wouldn’t be too pleased. ;-)
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  • Boom
    Boom Posts: 1,679
    Off_it said:
    So, now that the explanation and video are on here can we all agree that, in this particular instance, it seems there is a good reason for lowering the speed limit and it's not just a money making scheme?

    I mean, that footage is horrific.
    No we can’t. Just got home and got a ticket - on the way from your gaff!
  • Off_it
    Off_it Posts: 28,845
    Boom said:
    Off_it said:
    So, now that the explanation and video are on here can we all agree that, in this particular instance, it seems there is a good reason for lowering the speed limit and it's not just a money making scheme?

    I mean, that footage is horrific.
    No we can’t. Just got home and got a ticket - on the way from your gaff!
    Not in your new motor?! 
    🤣
  • Boom
    Boom Posts: 1,679
    Yup
  • 2121
    2121 Posts: 1,186
    Thanks for this, my dad just told me he got caught here!

    will it be automatic refund u reckon? Or have to apply / contact that solicitor? 
  • Rob7Lee
    Rob7Lee Posts: 9,594
    2121 said:
    Thanks for this, my dad just told me he got caught here!

    will it be automatic refund u reckon? Or have to apply / contact that solicitor? 
    You'll need to sign up with the solicitor, as it unfolds it seems unlikely of any refunds due to where the rogue sign was.
  • Huskaris
    Huskaris Posts: 9,846
    This is currently being spoken about on LBC. Seems like this is a huge issue...
  • man_at_milletts
    man_at_milletts Posts: 5,620
    Was BBC South East at lunch time.  Old Bill and TFL don't offer much hope of rescinding tickets according to their news report.
  • Hartleypete
    Hartleypete Posts: 4,699
    edited February 2024
    man_at_milletts said:
    Was BBC South East at lunch time.  Old Bill and TFL don't offer much hope of rescinding tickets according to their news report.
    Of course not, bit like post office scandal all over, police and tfl will be very much in cahoots with each other and probably lie to the end rather than using some form of common sense.
  • swords_alive
    swords_alive Posts: 4,258
    Should be an easy matter in these days of digitisation should it not? Haven't seen today's reports to understand any of the excuses being offered but simple rule could probably be implemented such as: All tickets issued passing the camera after the offending 50mph road sign, travelling at up to 50mph to automatically be re-paid and promptly. Anyone going over 50mph but under 55mph possibly also to be repaid, and those over 55mph probably exclude from refund, depending on whatever policy positon is taken for that category.
  • Rizzo
    Rizzo Posts: 6,431
    Hartleypete said:
    man_at_milletts said:
    Was BBC South East at lunch time.  Old Bill and TFL don't offer much hope of rescinding tickets according to their news report.
    Of course not, bit like post office scandal all over, police and tfl will be very much in cahoots with each other and probably lie to the end rather than using some form of common sense.
    Get ITV to make a powerful drama about it. That normally does the trick. 

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