We're losing circa £8m a year so with the £12m they spent buying us the owners are approx £28m down already.
Derby reported a £14m lost last season when getting promoted so maybe £8m isn't enough although Derby also have bigger gate income and made a circa £5m profit on player sales IIRC.
Owners view is that it is a long haul, there have been issues for a long time and money has been spent (see Bromley Addicks with Methven and Carter). They also say we have the 4th or 5th biggest budget in this division.
If that is the case then clearly we are underperforming solely on that measure.
I don't know how much Pompey spent but they went up without spending what Ipswich did.
My personal view is that money has been spent just in some cases very poorly and so the squad is loaded with a number of players who aren't right for us but who are a drag on wages. Some of that was before this ownership but most since.
So spending lots of money would be great, and the owners are very rich, but spending money well is more important.
Think we are falling into this double promotion expectation again (aspiring to Ipswich). The problem with Atkins and one of the reason we hired Jones.
Powell, arguably the most successful Charlton manager since we got relegated, was un proven when he first came in. So was Bowyer. Possibily it is this double promotion expectation that is the reason we are not getting anywhere.
We're losing circa £8m a year so with the £12m they spent buying us the owners are approx £28m down already.
Derby reported a £14m lost last season when getting promoted so maybe £8m isn't enough although Derby also have bigger gate income and made a circa £5m profit on player sales IIRC.
Owners view is that it is a long haul, there have been issues for a long time and money has been spent (see Bromley Addicks with Methven and Carter). They also say we have the 4th or 5th biggest budget in this division.
If that is the case then clearly we are underperforming solely on that measure.
I don't know how much Pompey spent but they went up without spending what Ipswich did.
My personal view is that money has been spent just in some cases very poorly and so the squad is loaded with a number of players who aren't right for us but who are a drag on wages. Some of that was before this ownership but most since.
So spending lots of money would be great, and the owners are very rich, but spending money well is more important.
Exactly. With our recruitment team, we would have just done what Ipswich did in their first season with money. Spend a fortune and finish mid-table
The number 1 priority for us needs to be to sort our recruitment team out. Andy Scott has been in the job long enough now and we haven’t seen much improvement at all, if any
We're losing circa £8m a year so with the £12m they spent buying us the owners are approx £28m down already.
Derby reported a £14m lost last season when getting promoted so maybe £8m isn't enough although Derby also have bigger gate income and made a circa £5m profit on player sales IIRC.
Owners view is that it is a long haul, there have been issues for a long time and money has been spent (see Bromley Addicks with Methven and Carter). They also say we have the 4th or 5th biggest budget in this division.
If that is the case then clearly we are underperforming solely on that measure.
I don't know how much Pompey spent but they went up without spending what Ipswich did.
My personal view is that money has been spent just in some cases very poorly and so the squad is loaded with a number of players who aren't right for us but who are a drag on wages. Some of that was before this ownership but most since.
So spending lots of money would be great, and the owners are very rich, but spending money well is more important.
It was the giving TS the £12m was the first big mistake. He wanted out on a loss making business with hardly any assets, they should have paid no where near that amount
Think we are falling into this double promotion expectation again (aspiring to Ipswich). The problem with Atkins and one of the reason we hired Jones.
Powell, arguably the most successful Charlton manager since we got relegated, was un proven when he first came in. So was Bowyer. Possibily it is this double promotion expectation that is the reason we are not getting anywhere.
Does anyone have an expectation of double promotion?
Budget and spending isn’t really the problem. We have the 4th highest budget in the league and probably spent more on transfer fees than most teams at this level
Ipswich only had the money to invest because they scaled down their academy.. even then it took two seasons to see the benefit … our owners have invested large sums across the whole club not just the playing side cause the mess the last 10/12 years has left and they still have to fund the academy and womens team which is appox 4 mill a year .. …
Think we are falling into this double promotion expectation again (aspiring to Ipswich). The problem with Atkins and one of the reason we hired Jones.
Powell, arguably the most successful Charlton manager since we got relegated, was un proven when he first came in. So was Bowyer. Possibily it is this double promotion expectation that is the reason we are not getting anywhere.
Does anyone have an expectation of double promotion?
That is definitely how the board has been selling it to us over the past few years. You can see that with the frustration building up around Jones at the moment.
The trick with Ipswich is they didn't have that expectation with Keiran McKenna (being a coach of a team before joining).
Also it is very hard to imagine Charlton matching the investment Ipswich has, since they have the Ed Sheeran investment for them Although Charlton have celebrity fans, can you see any of them investing in Charlton the same way Ed Sheeran does?
What has been spent by this ownership on the playing squad has, broadly, been spent pretty poorly. The most recent transfer window highlights both poor scouting/identification of players for the roles we needed, plus this is further penalised by the fact that we also seem to give particularly attractive contracts for the wrong types of players. Whilst players like Ahadme, ACampbell, Docherty and Berry should, on paper, provide quality in areas that we needed, their consistent disappointment has been overwhelmingly obvious.
You can keep throwing money at the problem until something sticks, but essentially, it's all for naught if the players you bring in are simply not the right fit. With all of the ones I mentioned, they genuinely lack the ability to carry us out of this league, week in, week out. I think that we should have known this before we signed them and this falls to our scouting team to know this before they are signed - just because a player has played at a higher level, it doesn't mean they will fit in a competitive L1 calendar. AMitchell is the better fit for us because his character, his desire to make a difference in the areas we needed and his defensive leadership qualities. With the others, the gaps in quality of what we needed mean a disjointed team.
It needs much, much more investment in identifying players and this needs to be better coordinated with the manager. I feel NJ had a little too much control over the summer and this is where we have ended up. Our scouting needs to be better in finding the hidden gems like Kayne Ramsay from the leagues below, rather than the players on the way down from the Championship that are just looking for wages. If we could supplement the inexperience from our Academy and those hidden gems with some L1 stalwarts (akin to Alfie) that can push on, then that's where we need to focus. It's mentioned a lot when I talk to my ST friends - Peterborough keep finding players from nowhere, and we need to emulate that.
We keep getting the recruitment wrong. It needs fixing with better lower league scouts and less players just here just for the money. The poor cycles have just kept repeating and a lot that falls on Scott and, to some extent, NJ. It needs investment in both recruitment infrastructure and the genuine quality in the players we find. We can't have such a low success rate on our signings - the example with Ipswich was that they found a way to get the players they needed to get out of L1. It's all just about getting out of the mire because you need the players that are above the average L1 level.
I don't know how long these owners will keep throwing money blindly at the wall. None of the commercial plans we might have will work in L1. Everything goes back to the quality of the first team.
Ipswich only had the money to invest because they scaled down their academy.. even then it took two seasons to see the benefit … our owners have invested large sums across the whole club not just the playing side cause the mess the last 10/12 years has left and they still have to fund the academy and womens team which is appox 4 mill a year .. …
Did you check their financial reports? They lost £6.5M in 20/21, £13M in 21/22 and £18M in 22/23. Their wage bill alone rose £3M for the 21/22 season. They didn't cover anything near that by "scaling down their academy".
Think we are falling into this double promotion expectation again (aspiring to Ipswich). The problem with Atkins and one of the reason we hired Jones.
Powell, arguably the most successful Charlton manager since we got relegated, was un proven when he first came in. So was Bowyer. Possibily it is this double promotion expectation that is the reason we are not getting anywhere.
Does anyone have an expectation of double promotion?
No chance at the moment, more chance of double denim happening.
It depends on what you make of certain indicators. Is the squad better ? Well it's certainly larger, remember the start of last season when youngsters were looking like they would break through after the Millwall friendly, when it was found they weren't yet ready, our squad looked threadbare. Are the new owners still mopping up after Sandgaard ? Yes would be my answer, lack of investment in the last two seasons of his ownership and poor choices in bringing players in, is definitely leaving a hangover for the first team and behind the scenes, three examples, Charlie Kirk, Chuks Aneke and the backroom dismissals that Tommy and the missus instigated when he found out his pockets weren't nearly as deep. Are the players brought in able to get us promoted and be relied on in the championship ? Edwards, Ramsay, Coventry, REG of the players brought in, Leaburn, yes and maybe Kanu, Lloyd Jones and Anderson, so eight players with some possible in Zach Mitchell and Dixon. Certain players ages are against their long term future at Charlton, Berry and Godden come to mind but this club needs to find players of the calibre of Edwards, Ramsay and Coventry to get itself in a position to challenge, succeed and survive, I've found eight in the current squad, so another eight by next season is the challenge, so the answer is yes they do need to invest far more heavily than they have currently but that needs to align with players being moved on. The last indicator into our progress is that if players such as Luke Berry, Gillesphray, Godden are still first names on the team sheet then we probably are not going anywhere.
Ipswich only had the money to invest because they scaled down their academy.. even then it took two seasons to see the benefit … our owners have invested large sums across the whole club not just the playing side cause the mess the last 10/12 years has left and they still have to fund the academy and womens team which is appox 4 mill a year .. …
Did you check their financial reports? They lost £6.5M in 20/21, £13M in 21/22 and £18M in 22/23. Their wage bill alone rose £3M for the 21/22 season. They didn't cover anything near that by "scaling down their academy".
Big investment on players (after a lot of research and knowing how the team will be expected to line up and develop), AND a VERY good manager, otherwise all the money in the world will not come close to ensuring success, i.e. promotions
I don’t think big money is needed to get out of this league, see Oxford and portsmouth
big money is needed to progress in the championship
see oxford, Portsmouth, Rotherham and Plymouth
This. Money helps but if you don't recruit well and have the wrong person at the helm you'll never get out of this league. Momentum seem to be the key . Portsmouth and Oxford had it last season and neither were world beaters but they just kept getting results. Why? well that's the 64 Thousand dollar question. All i know is we've had no form to speak of ( apart from the first few games this season and we were still poor ) for the last four years.
Methven is the stakeholder on the ground and it’s he who reports to the ownership. I would think that the money men knew perfectly well that the club was in a dreadful state when they bought it and it would take a few years to resolve those issues. All good. Where it falls over is when looking at progress for the only metric that ultimately matters. The first eleven. Get that right and everything else falls mostly into place. If this season pans out the way we’re all expecting it to then I would imagine that the owners will, want a review of what went wrong. Explanations will be needed and a good plan to remedy the problems given to the moneymen. I think it’ll buy Jones the start of next season but he’s going to have to deliver. I would also suggest that the money might want a second opinion other than Charlie’s and an American with sporting experience will be parachuted in. Anything else seems negligent.
Doesnt matter how much money we spend, its just got to be spent wisely.
Some of our most expensive incomings over recent seasons are Scott Fraser - Charlie Kirk - Gassan Ahadme
Two of our better signings of late have been Kayne Ramsay and Thierry Small, barely cost us anything.
Its why I dont care when people talk about us having the fourth biggest budget in the League - If you do your scouting properly, you can find gems on Free Transfer or for a fraction of the price that we've spent on others who havent turned out well.
The owners need to figure out why we keep signing duds from other clubs before doing anything else. Some of it must be down to incompetence but I wouldn't discount decision makers within the club taking kickbacks to take rubbish off other clubs hands. If it was my money at stake I'd be regularly setting up stings to prove/disprove exactly that.
Doesnt matter how much money we spend, its just got to be spent wisely.
Some of our most expensive incomings over recent seasons are Scott Fraser - Charlie Kirk - Gassan Ahadme
Two of our better signings of late have been Kayne Ramsay and Thierry Small, barely cost us anything.
Its why I dont care when people talk about us having the fourth biggest budget in the League - If you do your scouting properly, you can find gems on Free Transfer or for a fraction of the price that we've spent on others who havent turned out well.
Agree to an extent - I think it does help to also put your hand in your pocket, but firstly the scouting and planning well is definitely the more important of the two, and secondly I think putting that investment into better wages is more important than putting millions into transfer fees.
Look at the Powell title winning year - we spent the Jenkinson money (on Wiggins, Green, Stephens, Hamer, Morrison etc) but it was done sensibly and with forward planning - Taylor, Hollands, Kermorgant, Cort were free, Hamer and Morrison unwanted at their current clubs so cheapish.
Lyle Taylor, Tom Lockyer, George Dobson, CBT - all free transfers. Lower league contracts are short, there are a lot of good free transfers available every summer but we need to have good planning, good scouting, and be willing to offer good wages at an early stage in the transfer windows.
Nothing from this lot so far suggests we're have any of that from Methven, Rodwell, Scott or Jones - signing ex-Luton players at the end of transfer windows etc won't do it.
Paul Elliott has just been on SSN chatting about a year long initiative with the EFL trying to find out the reasons why local diverse communities aren’t coming to watch football. He does speak well fair play. He seems confident in our manager and squad stating no titles are won in November.
We're losing circa £8m a year so with the £12m they spent buying us the owners are approx £28m down already.
Derby reported a £14m lost last season when getting promoted so maybe £8m isn't enough although Derby also have bigger gate income and made a circa £5m profit on player sales IIRC.
Owners view is that it is a long haul, there have been issues for a long time and money has been spent (see Bromley Addicks with Methven and Carter). They also say we have the 4th or 5th biggest budget in this division.
If that is the case then clearly we are underperforming solely on that measure.
I don't know how much Pompey spent but they went up without spending what Ipswich did.
My personal view is that money has been spent just in some cases very poorly and so the squad is loaded with a number of players who aren't right for us but who are a drag on wages. Some of that was before this ownership but most since.
So spending lots of money would be great, and the owners are very rich, but spending money well is more important.
Takeaway from the Bromley meeting , one of many, is they intend to reduce the wage bill from £8mill to £5mill whilst improving recruitment quality. And also making economies on the Academy....someone else may remember that bit better than I can.
We're losing circa £8m a year so with the £12m they spent buying us the owners are approx £28m down already.
Derby reported a £14m lost last season when getting promoted so maybe £8m isn't enough although Derby also have bigger gate income and made a circa £5m profit on player sales IIRC.
Owners view is that it is a long haul, there have been issues for a long time and money has been spent (see Bromley Addicks with Methven and Carter). They also say we have the 4th or 5th biggest budget in this division.
If that is the case then clearly we are underperforming solely on that measure.
I don't know how much Pompey spent but they went up without spending what Ipswich did.
My personal view is that money has been spent just in some cases very poorly and so the squad is loaded with a number of players who aren't right for us but who are a drag on wages. Some of that was before this ownership but most since.
So spending lots of money would be great, and the owners are very rich, but spending money well is more important.
Takeaway from the Bromley meeting , one of many, is they intend to reduce the wage bill from £8mill to £5mill whilst improving recruitment quality. And also making economies on the Academy....someone else may remember that bit better than I can.
So they want to turn water into wine? Good luck with that.
Comments
Reckon we should get this on the half time playlist at the Valley.
Derby reported a £14m lost last season when getting promoted so maybe £8m isn't enough although Derby also have bigger gate income and made a circa £5m profit on player sales IIRC.
Owners view is that it is a long haul, there have been issues for a long time and money has been spent (see Bromley Addicks with Methven and Carter). They also say we have the 4th or 5th biggest budget in this division.
If that is the case then clearly we are underperforming solely on that measure.
I don't know how much Pompey spent but they went up without spending what Ipswich did.
My personal view is that money has been spent just in some cases very poorly and so the squad is loaded with a number of players who aren't right for us but who are a drag on wages. Some of that was before this ownership but most since.
So spending lots of money would be great, and the owners are very rich, but spending money well is more important.
Powell, arguably the most successful Charlton manager since we got relegated, was un proven when he first came in. So was Bowyer. Possibily it is this double promotion expectation that is the reason we are not getting anywhere.
The number 1 priority for us needs to be to sort our recruitment team out. Andy Scott has been in the job long enough now and we haven’t seen much improvement at all, if any
Since then we've had very few good seasons and i've seen nothing recently to suggest that's about to change.
Supporting Charlton is always hard work and always will be.
Close the thread....
big money is needed to progress in the championship
see oxford, Portsmouth, Rotherham and Plymouth
The trick with Ipswich is they didn't have that expectation with Keiran McKenna (being a coach of a team before joining).
Also it is very hard to imagine Charlton matching the investment Ipswich has, since they have the Ed Sheeran investment for them
Although Charlton have celebrity fans, can you see any of them investing in Charlton the same way Ed Sheeran does?
You can keep throwing money at the problem until something sticks, but essentially, it's all for naught if the players you bring in are simply not the right fit. With all of the ones I mentioned, they genuinely lack the ability to carry us out of this league, week in, week out. I think that we should have known this before we signed them and this falls to our scouting team to know this before they are signed - just because a player has played at a higher level, it doesn't mean they will fit in a competitive L1 calendar. AMitchell is the better fit for us because his character, his desire to make a difference in the areas we needed and his defensive leadership qualities. With the others, the gaps in quality of what we needed mean a disjointed team.
It needs much, much more investment in identifying players and this needs to be better coordinated with the manager. I feel NJ had a little too much control over the summer and this is where we have ended up. Our scouting needs to be better in finding the hidden gems like Kayne Ramsay from the leagues below, rather than the players on the way down from the Championship that are just looking for wages. If we could supplement the inexperience from our Academy and those hidden gems with some L1 stalwarts (akin to Alfie) that can push on, then that's where we need to focus. It's mentioned a lot when I talk to my ST friends - Peterborough keep finding players from nowhere, and we need to emulate that.
We keep getting the recruitment wrong. It needs fixing with better lower league scouts and less players just here just for the money. The poor cycles have just kept repeating and a lot that falls on Scott and, to some extent, NJ. It needs investment in both recruitment infrastructure and the genuine quality in the players we find. We can't have such a low success rate on our signings - the example with Ipswich was that they found a way to get the players they needed to get out of L1. It's all just about getting out of the mire because you need the players that are above the average L1 level.
I don't know how long these owners will keep throwing money blindly at the wall. None of the commercial plans we might have will work in L1. Everything goes back to the quality of the first team.
Are the new owners still mopping up after Sandgaard ? Yes would be my answer, lack of investment in the last two seasons of his ownership and poor choices in bringing players in, is definitely leaving a hangover for the first team and behind the scenes, three examples, Charlie Kirk, Chuks Aneke and the backroom dismissals that Tommy and the missus instigated when he found out his pockets weren't nearly as deep. Are the players brought in able to get us promoted and be relied on in the championship ? Edwards, Ramsay, Coventry, REG of the players brought in, Leaburn, yes and maybe Kanu, Lloyd Jones and Anderson, so eight players with some possible in Zach Mitchell and Dixon.
Certain players ages are against their long term future at Charlton, Berry and Godden come to mind but this club needs to find players of the calibre of Edwards, Ramsay and Coventry to get itself in a position to challenge, succeed and survive, I've found eight in the current squad, so another eight by next season is the challenge, so the answer is yes they do need to invest far more heavily than they have currently but that needs to align with players being moved on. The last indicator into our progress is that if players such as Luke Berry, Gillesphray, Godden are still first names on the team sheet then we probably are not going anywhere.
That's cheating 😁
Momentum seem to be the key . Portsmouth and Oxford had it last season and neither were world beaters but they just kept getting results. Why? well that's the 64 Thousand dollar question. All i know is we've had no form to speak of ( apart from the first few games this season and we were still poor ) for the last four years.
Some of our most expensive incomings over recent seasons are Scott Fraser - Charlie Kirk - Gassan Ahadme
Two of our better signings of late have been Kayne Ramsay and Thierry Small, barely cost us anything.
Its why I dont care when people talk about us having the fourth biggest budget in the League - If you do your scouting properly, you can find gems on Free Transfer or for a fraction of the price that we've spent on others who havent turned out well.
Look at the Powell title winning year - we spent the Jenkinson money (on Wiggins, Green, Stephens, Hamer, Morrison etc) but it was done sensibly and with forward planning - Taylor, Hollands, Kermorgant, Cort were free, Hamer and Morrison unwanted at their current clubs so cheapish.
Lyle Taylor, Tom Lockyer, George Dobson, CBT - all free transfers. Lower league contracts are short, there are a lot of good free transfers available every summer but we need to have good planning, good scouting, and be willing to offer good wages at an early stage in the transfer windows.
Nothing from this lot so far suggests we're have any of that from Methven, Rodwell, Scott or Jones - signing ex-Luton players at the end of transfer windows etc won't do it.
He seems confident in our manager and squad stating no titles are won in November.