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Unless the new owners are going to invest big time like the Ipswich.We are going nowhere.
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Not an expectation, so not an explanation.JustFloydRoad said:Think we are falling into this double promotion expectation again (aspiring to Ipswich). The problem with Atkins and one of the reason we hired Jones.
Powell, arguably the most successful Charlton manager since we got relegated, was un proven when he first came in. So was Bowyer. Possibily it is this double promotion expectation that is the reason we are not getting anywhere.
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Exactly the opposite of what they should be doing.KingKinsella said:
Takeaway from the Bromley meeting , one of many, is they intend to reduce the wage bill from £8mill to £5mill whilst improving recruitment quality. And also making economies on the Academy....someone else may remember that bit better than I can.Henry Irving said:We're losing circa £8m a year so with the £12m they spent buying us the owners are approx £28m down already.
Derby reported a £14m lost last season when getting promoted so maybe £8m isn't enough although Derby also have bigger gate income and made a circa £5m profit on player sales IIRC.
Owners view is that it is a long haul, there have been issues for a long time and money has been spent (see Bromley Addicks with Methven and Carter). They also say we have the 4th or 5th biggest budget in this division.
If that is the case then clearly we are underperforming solely on that measure.
I don't know how much Pompey spent but they went up without spending what Ipswich did.
My personal view is that money has been spent just in some cases very poorly and so the squad is loaded with a number of players who aren't right for us but who are a drag on wages. Some of that was before this ownership but most since.
So spending lots of money would be great, and the owners are very rich, but spending money well is more important.
Increase the wage bill and improve recruitment quality.
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Anyone know Oxfords wage bill last season?North Lower Neil said:
Exactly the opposite of what they should be doing.KingKinsella said:
Takeaway from the Bromley meeting , one of many, is they intend to reduce the wage bill from £8mill to £5mill whilst improving recruitment quality. And also making economies on the Academy....someone else may remember that bit better than I can.Henry Irving said:We're losing circa £8m a year so with the £12m they spent buying us the owners are approx £28m down already.
Derby reported a £14m lost last season when getting promoted so maybe £8m isn't enough although Derby also have bigger gate income and made a circa £5m profit on player sales IIRC.
Owners view is that it is a long haul, there have been issues for a long time and money has been spent (see Bromley Addicks with Methven and Carter). They also say we have the 4th or 5th biggest budget in this division.
If that is the case then clearly we are underperforming solely on that measure.
I don't know how much Pompey spent but they went up without spending what Ipswich did.
My personal view is that money has been spent just in some cases very poorly and so the squad is loaded with a number of players who aren't right for us but who are a drag on wages. Some of that was before this ownership but most since.
So spending lots of money would be great, and the owners are very rich, but spending money well is more important.
Increase the wage bill and improve recruitment quality.0 -
Think we should introduce pay to play. Get some rich fuck wits from YouTube to put up some money to play for a league side for the day.0
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Pity he could not talk to supporters stuck on Huddersfield train station on Saturday nightKBslittlesis said:Paul Elliott has just been on SSN chatting about a year long initiative with the EFL trying to find out the reasons why local diverse communities aren’t coming to watch football. He does speak well fair play.
He seems confident in our manager and squad stating no titles are won in November.2 -
Well, if Oxford are the example, Brannagan was allegedly one of the highest paid players in the league last couple of seasons as they increased it to ward off interest from Blackpool.swordfish said:
Anyone know Oxfords wage bill last season?North Lower Neil said:
Exactly the opposite of what they should be doing.KingKinsella said:
Takeaway from the Bromley meeting , one of many, is they intend to reduce the wage bill from £8mill to £5mill whilst improving recruitment quality. And also making economies on the Academy....someone else may remember that bit better than I can.Henry Irving said:We're losing circa £8m a year so with the £12m they spent buying us the owners are approx £28m down already.
Derby reported a £14m lost last season when getting promoted so maybe £8m isn't enough although Derby also have bigger gate income and made a circa £5m profit on player sales IIRC.
Owners view is that it is a long haul, there have been issues for a long time and money has been spent (see Bromley Addicks with Methven and Carter). They also say we have the 4th or 5th biggest budget in this division.
If that is the case then clearly we are underperforming solely on that measure.
I don't know how much Pompey spent but they went up without spending what Ipswich did.
My personal view is that money has been spent just in some cases very poorly and so the squad is loaded with a number of players who aren't right for us but who are a drag on wages. Some of that was before this ownership but most since.
So spending lots of money would be great, and the owners are very rich, but spending money well is more important.
Increase the wage bill and improve recruitment quality.
That's my point in that they could have sold him and spent a fee trying to replace him (or buying cheap, buying twice like we do), but they weren't scared to increase the wage bill for a good player.
We could have kept Dobson if we hadn't been trying to get away with a cheap wage offer.
I'm not saying pay well over the odds, but I am saying getting cheap on wages doesn't end well 90% of the time and we'll end up with the last minute signings willing to take a low wage who no one else wanted. The Simon Church, Adam Matthews, Terrell Thomas type transfers.
Wages, scouting, preparation are more important than transfer fees in getting things right.8 -
Elliott talks a load of old cobblers.KBslittlesis said:Paul Elliott has just been on SSN chatting about a year long initiative with the EFL trying to find out the reasons why local diverse communities aren’t coming to watch football. He does speak well fair play.
He seems confident in our manager and squad stating no titles are won in November.13 -
I agree. The wage bill is a consequence of the strategy, not the strategy itself.North Lower Neil said:
Well, if Oxford are the example, Brannagan was allegedly one of the highest paid players in the league last couple of seasons as they increased it to ward off interest from Blackpool.swordfish said:
Anyone know Oxfords wage bill last season?North Lower Neil said:
Exactly the opposite of what they should be doing.KingKinsella said:
Takeaway from the Bromley meeting , one of many, is they intend to reduce the wage bill from £8mill to £5mill whilst improving recruitment quality. And also making economies on the Academy....someone else may remember that bit better than I can.Henry Irving said:We're losing circa £8m a year so with the £12m they spent buying us the owners are approx £28m down already.
Derby reported a £14m lost last season when getting promoted so maybe £8m isn't enough although Derby also have bigger gate income and made a circa £5m profit on player sales IIRC.
Owners view is that it is a long haul, there have been issues for a long time and money has been spent (see Bromley Addicks with Methven and Carter). They also say we have the 4th or 5th biggest budget in this division.
If that is the case then clearly we are underperforming solely on that measure.
I don't know how much Pompey spent but they went up without spending what Ipswich did.
My personal view is that money has been spent just in some cases very poorly and so the squad is loaded with a number of players who aren't right for us but who are a drag on wages. Some of that was before this ownership but most since.
So spending lots of money would be great, and the owners are very rich, but spending money well is more important.
Increase the wage bill and improve recruitment quality.
That's my point in that they could have sold him and spent a higher fee trying to replace him (or buying cheap, buying twice like we do), but they weren't scared to increase the wage bill for a good player.
We could have kept Dobson if we hadn't been trying to get away with a cheap wage offer.
I'm not saying pay well over the odds, but I am saying getting cheap on wages doesn't end well 90% of the time and we'll end up with the last minute signings willing to take a low wage who no one else wanted. The Simon Church, Adam Matthews, Terrell Thomas type transfers.
Wages, scouting, preparation are more important than transfer fees in getting things right.1 -
I thought it was losses from £8m down to £5m rather than wages but would have to check the thread.KingKinsella said:
Takeaway from the Bromley meeting , one of many, is they intend to reduce the wage bill from £8mill to £5mill whilst improving recruitment quality. And also making economies on the Academy....someone else may remember that bit better than I can.Henry Irving said:We're losing circa £8m a year so with the £12m they spent buying us the owners are approx £28m down already.
Derby reported a £14m lost last season when getting promoted so maybe £8m isn't enough although Derby also have bigger gate income and made a circa £5m profit on player sales IIRC.
Owners view is that it is a long haul, there have been issues for a long time and money has been spent (see Bromley Addicks with Methven and Carter). They also say we have the 4th or 5th biggest budget in this division.
If that is the case then clearly we are underperforming solely on that measure.
I don't know how much Pompey spent but they went up without spending what Ipswich did.
My personal view is that money has been spent just in some cases very poorly and so the squad is loaded with a number of players who aren't right for us but who are a drag on wages. Some of that was before this ownership but most since.
So spending lots of money would be great, and the owners are very rich, but spending money well is more important.
Tellingly, CM said the savings in the academy were from carrying fewer U21 players but paying those left more which seems to be the opposite of our first team0 -
See, that's fine. Would be happy with the same quality over quantity approach in the first team squad.Henry Irving said:
I thought it was losses from £8m down to £5m rather than wages but would have to check the thread.KingKinsella said:
Takeaway from the Bromley meeting , one of many, is they intend to reduce the wage bill from £8mill to £5mill whilst improving recruitment quality. And also making economies on the Academy....someone else may remember that bit better than I can.Henry Irving said:We're losing circa £8m a year so with the £12m they spent buying us the owners are approx £28m down already.
Derby reported a £14m lost last season when getting promoted so maybe £8m isn't enough although Derby also have bigger gate income and made a circa £5m profit on player sales IIRC.
Owners view is that it is a long haul, there have been issues for a long time and money has been spent (see Bromley Addicks with Methven and Carter). They also say we have the 4th or 5th biggest budget in this division.
If that is the case then clearly we are underperforming solely on that measure.
I don't know how much Pompey spent but they went up without spending what Ipswich did.
My personal view is that money has been spent just in some cases very poorly and so the squad is loaded with a number of players who aren't right for us but who are a drag on wages. Some of that was before this ownership but most since.
So spending lots of money would be great, and the owners are very rich, but spending money well is more important.
Tellingly, CM said the savings in the academy were from carrying fewer U21 players but paying those left more which seems to be the opposite of our first team
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Football side nothing to do with CM as it’s been said many times .so what’s the point of asking him ?. and Jones now in charge of recruitment and has full say who comes in and who goesguinnessaddick said:Depends on what Charlie boy has told them what he needs and what he can achieve with that. Expect questions to be fired at him soon.10 -
When we hired Atkins and Jones everyone (from the board level) said they are good because they got a team promoted twice.swordfish said:
Not an expectation, so not an explanation.JustFloydRoad said:Think we are falling into this double promotion expectation again (aspiring to Ipswich). The problem with Atkins and one of the reason we hired Jones.
Powell, arguably the most successful Charlton manager since we got relegated, was un proven when he first came in. So was Bowyer. Possibily it is this double promotion expectation that is the reason we are not getting anywhere.
Ipswich worked since the owners invested in the framework. Although they hired an unproven manager, they gave him a framework to thrive in.
I was pointing out two of the times we did this we got promoted. (Case and point: Powell and Bowyer)0 -
If a manager got another team promoted thats good but its not like they can bring that team of players with them so i'm not sure why that matters. As you point out , McKenna/Bowyer/Powell got teams promoted mainly because they had quality players to work with.JustFloydRoad said:
When we hired Atkins and Jones everyone (from the board level) said they are good because they got a team promoted twice.swordfish said:
Not an expectation, so not an explanation.JustFloydRoad said:Think we are falling into this double promotion expectation again (aspiring to Ipswich). The problem with Atkins and one of the reason we hired Jones.
Powell, arguably the most successful Charlton manager since we got relegated, was un proven when he first came in. So was Bowyer. Possibily it is this double promotion expectation that is the reason we are not getting anywhere.
Ipswich worked since the owners invested in the framework. Although they hired an unproven manager, they gave him a framework to thrive in.
I was pointing out two of the times we did this we got promoted. (Case and point: Powell and Bowyer)0 -
You can’t say Bowyer had good framework to work with. The recruitment was basically him and Gallen and the coaching was basically him and JJ. He also was only appointment because he did well and was cheap unlike McKenna who was pretty well thought of and coaching in the PL.JustFloydRoad said:
When we hired Atkins and Jones everyone (from the board level) said they are good because they got a team promoted twice.swordfish said:
Not an expectation, so not an explanation.JustFloydRoad said:Think we are falling into this double promotion expectation again (aspiring to Ipswich). The problem with Atkins and one of the reason we hired Jones.
Powell, arguably the most successful Charlton manager since we got relegated, was un proven when he first came in. So was Bowyer. Possibily it is this double promotion expectation that is the reason we are not getting anywhere.
Ipswich worked since the owners invested in the framework. Although they hired an unproven manager, they gave him a framework to thrive in.
I was pointing out two of the times we did this we got promoted. (Case and point: Powell and Bowyer)
I actually agree with your broader point but the framework at Charlton has basically been broken since Curbs left2 -
New owners always say all sorts of things. I don’t think many (any) Charlton fans have any expectation of achieving back to back promotions. If they do they need their head checked.JustFloydRoad said:
That is definitely how the board has been selling it to us over the past few years. You can see that with the frustration building up around Jones at the moment.se9addick said:
Does anyone have an expectation of double promotion?JustFloydRoad said:Think we are falling into this double promotion expectation again (aspiring to Ipswich). The problem with Atkins and one of the reason we hired Jones.
Powell, arguably the most successful Charlton manager since we got relegated, was un proven when he first came in. So was Bowyer. Possibily it is this double promotion expectation that is the reason we are not getting anywhere.
The trick with Ipswich is they didn't have that expectation with Keiran McKenna (being a coach of a team before joining).
Also it is very hard to imagine Charlton matching the investment Ipswich has, since they have the Ed Sheeran investment for them
Although Charlton have celebrity fans, can you see any of them investing in Charlton the same way Ed Sheeran does?
I don’t think Sheeran has put in that much btw, less than some of our main backers I would expect.
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How many times are you going to repeat this rubbish.RonnieMoore said:
Football side nothing to do with CM as it’s been said many times .so what’s the point of asking him ?. and Jones now in charge of recruitment and has full say who comes in and who goesguinnessaddick said:Depends on what Charlie boy has told them what he needs and what he can achieve with that. Expect questions to be fired at him soon.2 -
Because their families european team supporting is rooted in the tv coverage that got in the country of origin.KBslittlesis said:Paul Elliott has just been on SSN chatting about a year long initiative with the EFL trying to find out the reasons why local diverse communities aren’t coming to watch football. He does speak well fair play.
He seems confident in our manager and squad stating no titles are won in November.0 -
Should read they got.0
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JustFloydRoad said:
At least give us a YouTube video to talk aboutValleyDan said:Discus
https://youtu.be/8zwEFyHCnTM?feature=shared
’If it failed or succeeded, it’s on me’
There’s a nomination for this year's grammatically awful YouTube video heading.
Is English grammar not taught at school in the UK anymore?
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In our case I would hazard a guess it's because we're shit. Christ, even our lifelong fans don't want to go and watch us.KBslittlesis said:Paul Elliott has just been on SSN chatting about a year long initiative with the EFL trying to find out the reasons why local diverse communities aren’t coming to watch football. He does speak well fair play.
He seems confident in our manager and squad stating no titles are won in November.2 -
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Ah time for this.
Back in preseason we've had the owners praised for their investment at sparrows and sending Jones off to his fav holiday, then declared a bunch of skintgaards trying to make cheap buck because Birmingham spunked millions on player's.
The "Jones out" thread is full of comments blaming the owners and board for our position because they didn't show enough ambition and spend big because we won't get promoted without serious dough.....But, then we have the Jan window thread where we "need to do a Peterborough" and recruit smarter as there's gems to be found and look at table topping Wycombe having spent 0 pounds on transfers "why can't we do that? You don't need to spend big just smart recruiting." Often from the same posters arguing for both approaches across the different threads.
Some teams have got out of this league throwing money at it.
Some teams have got out of this league not throwing money at it.
Both approaches saw them recruiting the players they needed and knew how to use.
One team once got promoted out of this league by spending and finishing top and then again via the playoffs on freebies and loans.....
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Another example of a team promoted last season and what it costs Derby county.
The following figures courtesy of Kieran Macguire
Revenue £19.4 million, wages £22.0 million . Loss £18.8 million before player sales. Loss before tax £14.2 million. Loans from Owners £47.9 million
This is for the23/24 season.0 -
KBslittlesis said:Paul Elliott has just been on SSN chatting about a year long initiative with the EFL trying to find out the reasons why local diverse communities aren’t coming to watch football. He does speak well
Seriously...it's obvious.
In our specific case and many other efl clubs Most non Charlton fans aren't gonna spend limited funds to pay £26 each to sit and watch shit football in a shit league when they've no connection to the club other than locality and it's more glamorous/ interesting to armchair 'support' the multitude of London premier league sides or Liverpool or Manchester United.
I imagine a large element of the "local diverse community" are maybe immigrants and if I moved to Milan or Barcelona I'd more than likely adopt AC milan or Barcelona as my team over an expensive serie C side that I'd never heard of before just cos they're nearby.
If we got to the top flight and stayed there or even promoted we'd pick up more local diverse support.
There's no science to it and unbelievable the EFL have spent the past 12 months as it's blatantly obvious.
I doubt Arsenal or Tottenham struggle to attract diverse locals and if they do its probably because locals don't have £80 to shell out for a ticket every fortnight.
Ticket prices are likely the main prohibitor coupled in our case with the extremley shit value for money experience. Let's face it the only reason I turn up week in week out is out of a deranged sense of loyalty, duty and continuation of historical family tradition.
Bet in other countries where locals flood to games it's probably a lot cheaper and affordable than in England.9 -
Wish I had mentioned Derby's losses : - )msomerton said:Another example of a team promoted last season and what it costs Derby county.
The following figures courtesy of Kieran Macguire
Revenue £19.4 million, wages £22.0 million . Loss £18.8 million before player sales. Loss before tax £14.2 million. Loans from Owners £47.9 million
This is for the23/24 season.0 -
Do locals flood to third tier games in other countries though? Genuine question as I just don't know.RodneyCharltonTrotta said:KBslittlesis said:Paul Elliott has just been on SSN chatting about a year long initiative with the EFL trying to find out the reasons why local diverse communities aren’t coming to watch football. He does speak well
Bet in other countries where locals flood to games it's probably a lot cheaper and affordable than in England.
Either way, as you say, I bet the cost is cheaper. And I also bet they pay the players lower wages!0 -
Sure they are all factors but the idea is to ask the people for different backgrounds why they aren't coming rather than people like most on here, who are white and are already coming.RodneyCharltonTrotta said:KBslittlesis said:Paul Elliott has just been on SSN chatting about a year long initiative with the EFL trying to find out the reasons why local diverse communities aren’t coming to watch football. He does speak well
Seriously...it's obvious.
In our specific case and many other efl clubs Most non Charlton fans aren't gonna spend limited funds to pay £26 each to sit and watch shit football in a shit league when they've no connection to the club other than locality and it's more glamorous/ interesting to armchair 'support' the multitude of London premier league sides or Liverpool or Manchester United.
I imagine a large element of the "local diverse community" are maybe immigrants and if I moved to Milan or Barcelona I'd more than likely adopt AC milan or Barcelona as my team over an expensive serie C side that I'd never heard of before just cos they're nearby.
If we got to the top flight and stayed there or even promoted we'd pick up more local diverse support.
There's no science to it and unbelievable the EFL have spent the past 12 months as it's blatantly obvious.
I doubt Arsenal or Tottenham struggle to attract diverse locals and if they do its probably because locals don't have £80 to shell out for a ticket every fortnight.
Ticket prices are likely the main prohibitor coupled in our case with the extremley shit value for money experience. Let's face it the only reason I turn up week in week out is out of a deranged sense of loyalty, duty and continuation of historical family tradition.
Bet in other countries where locals flood to games it's probably a lot cheaper and affordable than in England.
Personally, I don't think there is one but a multitude of reasons but unless you ask, you're not going to find out.
And as Elliott says, with 10k empty seats there is a business case for getting this right not just a nice to have EDI reason.
Also Charlton have been chosen to lead on this with the results than shared across the EFL.
As someone who handed out leaflets on the first ever Red, White and Black day I'm quite proud of that.5 -
Henry Irving said:
Sure they are all factors but the idea is to ask the people for different backgrounds why they aren't coming rather than people like most on here, who are white and are already coming.RodneyCharltonTrotta said:KBslittlesis said:Paul Elliott has just been on SSN chatting about a year long initiative with the EFL trying to find out the reasons why local diverse communities aren’t coming to watch football. He does speak well
Seriously...it's obvious.
In our specific case and many other efl clubs Most non Charlton fans aren't gonna spend limited funds to pay £26 each to sit and watch shit football in a shit league when they've no connection to the club other than locality and it's more glamorous/ interesting to armchair 'support' the multitude of London premier league sides or Liverpool or Manchester United.
I imagine a large element of the "local diverse community" are maybe immigrants and if I moved to Milan or Barcelona I'd more than likely adopt AC milan or Barcelona as my team over an expensive serie C side that I'd never heard of before just cos they're nearby.
If we got to the top flight and stayed there or even promoted we'd pick up more local diverse support.
There's no science to it and unbelievable the EFL have spent the past 12 months as it's blatantly obvious.
I doubt Arsenal or Tottenham struggle to attract diverse locals and if they do its probably because locals don't have £80 to shell out for a ticket every fortnight.
Ticket prices are likely the main prohibitor coupled in our case with the extremley shit value for money experience. Let's face it the only reason I turn up week in week out is out of a deranged sense of loyalty, duty and continuation of historical family tradition.
Bet in other countries where locals flood to games it's probably a lot cheaper and affordable than in England.
Personally, I don't think there is one but a multitude of reasons but unless you ask, you're not going to find out.
And as Elliott says, with 10k empty seats there is a business case for getting this right not just a nice to have EDI reason.
Also Charlton have been chosen to lead on this with the results than shared across the EFL.
As someone who handed out leaflets on the first ever Red, White and Black day I'm quite proud of that.
Fair points.0 -
The bloke is just full of shit, Charltons version of Sol Campbell.JohnnyH2 said:
Pity he could not talk to supporters stuck on Huddersfield train station on Saturday nightKBslittlesis said:Paul Elliott has just been on SSN chatting about a year long initiative with the EFL trying to find out the reasons why local diverse communities aren’t coming to watch football. He does speak well fair play.
He seems confident in our manager and squad stating no titles are won in November.1 -
When did they become "the Ipswich"?1
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Many times by you & that is it.RonnieMoore said:
Football side nothing to do with CM as it’s been said many times .so what’s the point of asking him ?. and Jones now in charge of recruitment and has full say who comes in and who goesguinnessaddick said:Depends on what Charlie boy has told them what he needs and what he can achieve with that. Expect questions to be fired at him soon.
Bugger I've bitten & he's got want he wants
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