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Shared building maintenance query

Hoping someone on here can answer this question, I have no idea and I am struggling to get an answer.

My son bought a flat in a house that is over 120 years old, there are 7 flats in total. Over the past few years, it has become apparent that the building requires a new roof, 5 quotes have been requested with the cheapest currently £58k which will leave the owners facing a bill just over 8k each.

My son has already been told by two other owners that they will not be stumping up the money.

My question is, what happens legally if that happens and say two or three owners out of the 7 refuse to pay? 

The work needs to be done because leaks/damp are becoming a big problem.

Comments

  • Is a leasehold property? If so I believe the leaseholder can take you to court if you fail to pay your part of any costs. 
  • bobmunro said:
    Does your son have a share of the freehold, or is the freehold held by a third party? If the latter then unless specified in the lease, the freeholder would normally be responsible for things like roofs.

    The devil is, as always, in the detail and getting legal advice would be the only advice I could give.
    Cheers Bob. I have just messaged him to ask the question. At this point I only know there is a management company involved, my knowledge of this type of thing is absolutely zilch.
  • edited February 25
    bobmunro said:
    Does your son have a share of the freehold, or is the freehold held by a third party? If the latter then unless specified in the lease, the freeholder would normally be responsible for things like roofs.

    The devil is, as always, in the detail and getting legal advice would be the only advice I could give.
    In theory yes, but most freeholders will word a lease to put responsibility on the leaseholders. Wear and Tear. However the management company will always overcharge annual fees to create what they call a "floating fund" for unexpected costs. They also need to issue a Section 20 notice to all residents for expenditure over £500.

     Firstly check your liability in your lease, secondly get the balance sheet of the management company and get an idea of the floating fund. Thirdly,if they bugger you about, 4 of the 7 can sack the agent and bring in a more ameniable one that will inherit the existing floating fund.

    Many managing agents (mostly thicko bullies) do not realise that service charges are not their money, but they are funds held in trust on behalf of flat owners.
  • bobmunro said:
    Does your son have a share of the freehold, or is the freehold held by a third party? If the latter then unless specified in the lease, the freeholder would normally be responsible for things like roofs.

    The devil is, as always, in the detail and getting legal advice would be the only advice I could give.
    In theory yes, but most freeholders will word a lease to put responsibility on the leaseholders. Wear and Tear. However the management company will always overcharge annual fees to create what they call a "floating fund" for unexpected costs. They also need to issue a Section 20 notice to all residents for expenditure over £500.

     Firstly check your liability in your lease, secondly get the balance sheet of the management company and get an idea of the floating fund. Thirdly,if they bugger you about, 4 of the 7 can sack the agent and bring in a more ameniable one that will inherit the existing floating fund.

    Hence my only advice being to seek legal advice!
  • Hoping someone on here can answer this question, I have no idea and I am struggling to get an answer.

    My son bought a flat in a house that is over 120 years old, there are 7 flats in total. Over the past few years, it has become apparent that the building requires a new roof, 5 quotes have been requested with the cheapest currently £58k which will leave the owners facing a bill just over 8k each.

    My son has already been told by two other owners that they will not be stumping up the money.

    My question is, what happens legally if that happens and say two or three owners out of the 7 refuse to pay? 

    The work needs to be done because leaks/damp are becoming a big problem.
    You/your son needs to check the wording in the lease.
  • bobmunro said:
    bobmunro said:
    Does your son have a share of the freehold, or is the freehold held by a third party? If the latter then unless specified in the lease, the freeholder would normally be responsible for things like roofs.

    The devil is, as always, in the detail and getting legal advice would be the only advice I could give.
    In theory yes, but most freeholders will word a lease to put responsibility on the leaseholders. Wear and Tear. However the management company will always overcharge annual fees to create what they call a "floating fund" for unexpected costs. They also need to issue a Section 20 notice to all residents for expenditure over £500.

     Firstly check your liability in your lease, secondly get the balance sheet of the management company and get an idea of the floating fund. Thirdly,if they bugger you about, 4 of the 7 can sack the agent and bring in a more ameniable one that will inherit the existing floating fund.

    Hence my only advice being to seek legal advice!
    None of my three points need the added cost of legal advice, just common sense and an amount of pragmatism.
  • bobmunro said:
    Does your son have a share of the freehold, or is the freehold held by a third party? If the latter then unless specified in the lease, the freeholder would normally be responsible for things like roofs.

    The devil is, as always, in the detail and getting legal advice would be the only advice I could give.
    In theory yes, but most freeholders will word a lease to put responsibility on the leaseholders. Wear and Tear. However the management company will always overcharge annual fees to create what they call a "floating fund" for unexpected costs. They also need to issue a Section 20 notice to all residents for expenditure over £500.

     Firstly check your liability in your lease, secondly get the balance sheet of the management company and get an idea of the floating fund. Thirdly,if they bugger you about, 4 of the 7 can sack the agent and bring in a more ameniable one that will inherit the existing floating fund.

    Many managing agents (mostly thicko bullies) do not realise that service charges are not their money, but they are funds held in trust on behalf of flat owners.
    Section 20 costs are £250 including vat. Obviously £58k exceeds this and the management company should have served stage 1 notice before obtaining quotes and now should be sending second notices. If the management company do things correctly, I don’t think leaseholders can refuse to pay. Hence bobs legal advice comment being a good suggestion.
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  • Assuming the place is in England (some of the law round this is different around the UK) then the leasehold advisory service website may be worth a look.

    They offer (time limited) free phone advice - may be worth a look / call before getting in to the realms of lawyers.
  • edited February 25
    Assuming the place is in England (some of the law round this is different around the UK) then the leasehold advisory service website may be worth a look.

    They offer (time limited) free phone advice - may be worth a look / call before getting in to the realms of lawyers.
    They've helped me a couple of times. Think they asked for a copy of the lease as part of the process which was fair enough but a chore as it was so big. Fortunately i was able to scan it and send directly from a printer at work.  

    Agree with Gisappointed too in that you should be able to read the lease to at least get the gist of the key terms and relationships it covers, then also how to sharpen what ever questions you need to ask from an advisor. Most leases in England are the very similar in structure. If you have a managing agent, then they are in effect working for the Freeholder. They collect and administer service charges and maintenance works for which they bill periodically.

    The section 20 process requires that for works over a threshold (where each flat would incur costs of £250 or more each i think, as here), then they need to invite quotes, and follow the set down process. The management agency will also be responsible for following up collection of all costs from each leaseholder )this is done on an account basis, and not all will run a sink fund or surplus Your son should have had accounts from the last service charge period to see if there is a fund.

    The Managing agent can also advise what they can do about a leaseholder who won't or can't pay. Ultimately those individuals may need to be told by the management agency that 'this is the process and that's the amount due', or they will maybe carry out interim work, pausing the main works and work out payment plans, or maybe those that can't pay could borrow or have to sell up (not your son's problem directly). If he has an AGM coming up attend it and get involved in the discussion, or ask for an extra-ordinary meeting to be called as those sums are significant, and questions/ issues can then be aired at the meeting.

    Myself, i'd have a quiet word with the managing agent in the first instance, if possible, just to ask directly what they'd do to get the works moving when there are some who can't or won't be able to pay. 
  • edited February 25
    You can use apps such as 'Doc scanner' on your mobile to take pictures of documents, and then turn into pdf. The software lets you adjust the images taken, I use them it regularly and get good results
  • Thanks everyone for your helpful replies.

    His flat is leasehold, he has just sent me a copy but I am struggling to see anything regarding owners refusing to pay for repairs.

    Fortunately, my son is in a position where he can pay his share. His concerns at the moment are what happens if one or more owners refuse to pay because firstly, the roof is in need of being replaced ASAP and secondly, without 100% of the money, would the repair actually take place or if it does go ahead, who covers the financial shortfall?

    From my understanding, the management company appear to be doing everything correctly, there has been letters in advance explaining what work is required, an AGM was held (which is where my son first heard about the two threatening to not pay) and surveys along with the quotes have been forwarded to the owners.

    Regarding a floating fund, my son said this has never amounted to much, the maintenance charge was only £45pm but has recently gone up to nearer £90. Last year a significant amount was spent on repairs, decorating of the communal areas and work to the grounds/parking area so its a depleted pot.

    I think for the moment we will wait and see what happens, it may be that the two owners are just mouthing off and when push comes to shove, they will pay up. If not, my son has a friend that works in the solicitors he used for the conveyancing so hopefully she will come in handy!

    Thanks again for all the tips. 
     
  • The monthly charge of £45/90 pm is very low. Should really be paying an annual amount into a sinking fund so at least a contribution can be made towards major outlays. The management company will take action against those refusing to pay, this should be covered in the lease. Lease may also provide a provision for interest to be added to amounts outstanding once they fall due for payment.  The lease is the rule book, other tenants cannot just decide they won’t pay. 
  • edited February 26
    Don't forget stockportaddick, that the Managing company is there to do a job. Usually they have experience in these things- it's what they do ('block management', and usually sales and lettings as well, depending on their business model). They collect management fees for this as part of the service charges (will be in the accounts), and maybe fees on top for organising the works and (perhaps) project managing them. If they are bigger they will usually have in-house accountants and legal advisors, or access to these if smaller (and usually billed back to the leaseholders per the lease if dispute occurs- but that's not so relevant for now). 

    If they are not doing what they should in line with the lease, i.e. producing annual accounts and administering maintenance, you can complain about them but I'd consider that a separate topic for now. Dispute resolution will be covered by the lease, but as said, we are not there yet.

    I think your son need not worry too much as it seems a simple question to the managing company directly should allay his concern, - worded as you have "without 100% of the money, would the repair actually take place or if it does go ahead, who covers the financial shortfall?", or i'd put it perhaps a little more directly- 'what will you do to make sure the others pay their share?' 
  • Don't forget stockportaddick, that the Managing company is there to do a job. Usually they have experience in these things- it's what they do ('block management', and usually sales and lettings as well, depending on their business model). They collect management fees for this as part of the service charges (will be in the accounts), and maybe fees on top for organising the works and (perhaps) project managing them. If they are bigger they will usually have in-house accountants and legal advisors, or access to these if smaller (and usually billed back to the leaseholders per the lease if dispute occurs- but that's not so relevant for now). 

    If they are not doing what they should in line with the lease, i.e. producing annual accounts and administering maintenance, you can complain about them but I'd consider that a separate topic for now. Dispute resolution will be covered by the lease, but as said, we are not there yet.

    I think your son need not worry too much as it seems a simple question to the managing company directly should allay his concern, - worded as you have "without 100% of the money, would the repair actually take place or if it does go ahead, who covers the financial shortfall?", or i'd put it perhaps a little more directly- 'what will you do to make sure the others pay their share?' 
    This is going to be his next move. He will be a lot more confident approaching them now after hearing the very helpful comments on here.
  • edited February 27
    I'm pretty sure (without seeing the lease) that responsibility for ordering the repairs is with the management company, and any tenant refusing to pay will be their responsibility, nothing to do with other leaseholders.

    Refusniks could lose their property.

    Also £45 pa doesn't sound feasible as a service charge. This would generate £300-£400 for management company which wouldn't cover their costs. I suspect this is ground rent, and repairs are shared by the seven.

    Read the lease or take Bob's advise and get a property lawyer involved


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