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What’s really changed then?

So what is the single most significant change that’s brought about this remarkable change in form?

Is it team selection, is it a change in routine/weekly schedule on the training pitch, is it the rooting out of a few bad apples, is it a streamlined squad? Or was it just time or something else?

Yes likely a combination but I wonder if there is something that has been most important that means it’s all ‘clicked’ into place. 
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Comments

  • I don't think you can narrow it down to one thing.

    Jones and Ramsay returning has been huge.

    Using Small and TC to give us width.

    Docherty showing us the player he is.

    The lack of injuries and general fitness meaning lots of late goals and being able to see games out.

    Leaburn returning.

    The slim lined squad meaning nearly all the players bar Gassen are in the mix.

    Macca cutting out the errors and adding some goals.

    Gilbert's corners.

    Losing A Campbell and Potts so perhaps the feeling that player are only here because they knew the gaffer has gone.

    Godden starting on a regular basis.

    Time allowing NJ's philosophy and way of playing to imbed 

    Some luck

    Other teams having a wobble or their own injuries or problems



    Yes. As I said a combination but I asked (for discussion) what the most important element is. 

    If you can’t decide then I think l that suggests we are perhaps fortunate to see this upturn in form rather more than a planned thing. 

    I’m inclined to @sam3110 suggestion of ‘fitness’. 
  • It is having a fit squad AND getting the team set-up and tactics right.   That can take time (the gelling factor). Nobody would have thought playing Thierry Small right wing would work wonders, but with him on that side and TC giving width on the left, all of a sudden we have pace that can hurt teams. The return from injury of Ramsey, Leaburn and Jones has also helped massively, and there is now real competition for places. Other players have also now had six months to settle in to not only Jones training and tactics, but to their new surroundings in south east London - it hasn't been easy for Small, Gillesphey, Edwards, Mannion, Docherty, Berry and Godden. Sadly for Ahadme it hasn't worked out, but he's only a Chuks pull hamstring away from being on the bench, and his late season input could still be important.
  • So what is the single most significant change that’s brought about this remarkable change in form?

    Is it team selection, is it a change in routine/weekly schedule on the training pitch, is it the rooting out of a few bad apples, is it a streamlined squad? Or was it just time or something else?

    Yes likely a combination but I wonder if there is something that has been most important that means it’s all ‘clicked’ into place. 
    Identifying a core team and sticking with it. The players get to know their role, instinctively know who their teammates on the pitch are, where they are, who to back up, who is going to pass the ball to them, who they can pass the ball to. Players on the bench also find it easier to come on and slot into the play. AND, everyone gets super match fit. Plus nobody wants to get dropped. 

    Big squads and chopping and changing the line ups every fucking match is counterproductive, and long may our opponents not work that one out.
  • Playing with width
    Giving players a run in the team
    Team spirit
    Fitness
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  • I also believe that the generalised answer is about fitness and strength for what Nathan Jones would describe as a 100 minute game. @PragueAddick has called it right regarding our medical/rehabilitation improvement, and we are most certainly a second half team that can see a game out strongly.
  • Talal said:
    Width
    Plus pace. Not just out wide either. Our back 3 looks transformed with Ramsay in it. He allows us to play a much higher line and sets up so many counter attacks with his ability to carry the ball out from the back.
  • I think @Chizz has hit the nail firmly on the head. The single most important change is not making a change in manager as soon as results go against us. 
  • I think the most significant thing has been him acknowledging that the entirety of the width and the attacking impetus can't come from just the wingbacks. He was so obsessed with cutting out the defensive leaking we saw last season that we were very rigid. 5 back when they attack, physical midfielders so we don't get played through, big lump up top if it needs to go. Then when we have the ball it's get it wide to the wingbacks and hope they do something. Nothing else. The problem was the wingbacks were busy doing the solid defending thing and we didn't have balance to them; Edwards isn't the quickest, he's more of a defender, Ramsay is far better as a RCB because he's not really got an attacking mindset and Tennai has been injured most of the season so it was just Small trying to get high up the pitch and it was easily snuffed out. Once Jones accepted that we needed the width to start higher up the pitch, which would allow Edwards to join the attack later, would give space for the midfield to play in and introduced a lopsided element that pulled the opposition out of their shape that we started seeing results.
  • I scoffed when others said that things would “click” eventually, but as a broad way of encapsulating the detailed analysis that others have provided it kinda feels like that’s what has happened.

    I still don’t think this a great team, certainly not on a par with the 2019 playoff winning team, but the league is poor enough that being decent might just be enough to get us up this season. 
  • I think its down to the fact that the players have brought into Nathan's philosophy of how he wants and expects them to play Football - Fitness plays a part in that too, but I dont think the likes of Greg Docherty and Macauley Gillesphey have suddenly turned into different players compared to their early season form because they're simply fitter than the opposition.

    Luton fans said at the beginning, that Jones would have a style and he'd stick by it until players got accustomed to it, that he'd make decisions we wouldnt like (Selling May), but we'd learn to accept... Think we're slowly seeing that persistence pay off.
  • Valley11 said:
    I’d also say NJ clearly used the first year of his contract to instil a defensive base and mentality.  At times it looked like that was to the detriment of any attacking flair or fluidity.

    But at some point, probably with the return of the players mentioned above, we looked more dangerous in attack. We also stopped lumping the ball. 

    I’d be interested to know if that was a directive from NJ. There was definitely a huge change in playing style from the defence hitting it long and bypassing midfield to now, where we play through the thirds. 

    Was that NJ switching things up from that first 12 months of establishing a defensive solidity? 


    This for me.

    Obviously many factors have helped, players returning, a lack of injuries, playing a settled side, but for me things mainly started to change when we stopped lumping it.
  • Honestly think the most important thing has been Ramsay returning, a ridiculously good player, him being in the back 3 coupled with Jones also coming back has in turn massively improved Gillesphey’s performances and we look so good at the back 
  • edited March 5
    Talal said:
    Width
    We've always had width in the team though... From the beginning it was always Edwards / Small on one flank, Ramsay on the other flank and Campbell further up the pitch

    Small finding some form has really helped us (He's back to the player we had last season, rather than a player that showed why he hadn't settled anywhere at the start) is helpful - But its worth remembering, he's still simply playing the Ramsay role from the start of the season, and is probably a bit more of an attacking full-back compared to Kayne. Its effectively two players out of position, on paper it doesn't look like it should work, but really does.
  • I don't think you can narrow it down to one thing.

    Jones and Ramsay returning has been huge.

    Using Small and TC to give us width.

    Docherty showing us the player he is.

    The lack of injuries and general fitness meaning lots of late goals and being able to see games out.

    Leaburn returning.

    The slim lined squad meaning nearly all the players bar Gassen are in the mix.

    Macca cutting out the errors and adding some goals.

    Gilbert's corners.

    Losing A Campbell and Potts so perhaps the feeling that player are only here because they knew the gaffer has gone.

    Godden starting on a regular basis.

    Time allowing NJ's philosophy and way of playing to imbed 

    Some luck

    Other teams having a wobble or their own injuries or problems



    Yes. As I said a combination but I asked (for discussion) what the most important element is. 

    If you can’t decide then I think l that suggests we are perhaps fortunate to see this upturn in form rather more than a planned thing. 

    I’m inclined to @sam3110 suggestion of ‘fitness’. 
    The most important element is that we have a whole number of improvements, as listed by Henry. Any one of those in isolation may not have been sufficient to see the change in form, in combination they have been.

    I know it's frustrating when you expect a discussion to pan out a certain way, and someone takes it in a different direction, but that's life.  It's been marginal gains right across the team, rather than just one thing that have made the difference. 
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  • The manager 
  • edited March 5
    sam3110 said:
    I honestly believe it's to do with fitness and a lack of injuries. 

    We are able to press teams high and maintain it for all 90 minutes, some of our players (Edwards, Coventry, Ramsay for instance) look like they could play another 90 minutes straight afterwards, and that shows in the games where we've won so many of them late on
    This. When we walked this division under SCP we had an underpin of players that were available for the majority of the season -  Wiggins (45), Morrison (45), Solly (44), Hollands (43), BWP (42), Taylor (41), Hamer (41), Jackson (36), Kermogant (36), Wagstaff (34), Green (32) and Stephens (30). 

    So we had seven players that made more than 40 appearances. Last season, the only two that did so were Dobson and May. If we then look at how the personnel has evolved, both in terms of recruitment and individual improvement, then we see that those players that are now on our team sheet from the off, actually started, as a group, very few matches by comparison -  Jones (30), Coventry (16), Small (14), Gillesphey (14), TC (12), Ramsay (3), Godden (0), Edwards (0), Berry (0) Docherty (0). 

    Consistency of performance and selection, allied to strong back up players, is the key. Without wishing to knock any of the players currently in the side, if we had a top class keeper, a Keillor-Dunn and a Stansfield/Kone then we would, at worst be second and at best rivalling our achievements of 2011-12 and holding our own in the Championship next season too. 
  • Chizz said:
    Here's a set of figures that are worth considering (E&OE).  I have highlighted two important ones. 

    129 
    16 
    24
    29 
    12
    20 
    16 
    74 
    118 
    13 
    34 
    17 
    32
    28 
    50 

    Some will guess what this list represents; and those who do will understand why the first and ninth are highlighted.  

    The list represents the number of league games each Charlton Manager has been in place.  The two highlighted numbers represent the tenures of Chris Powell and Lee Bowyer.  It is no coincidence at all that these two achieved promotion, while all others left the role before they delivered any success.  

    Nathan Jones is now third on the list and is showing signs that he could be the next name on the list to achieve the double of promotion and a century of league games in charge.  
    Everyone knows it takes time to harvest, harden, hone and hoist a squad, over a season.  In the last decade and a half, we've taken twelve opportunities to fail to do exactly that.  This season, we've stuck with slow, gradual success.  And it's paying off.  

    Season after season, Charlton have pulled the trigger on a manager before he's had the chance to succeed or fail.  What's changed over the last few weeks is - in my view - we haven't sacked the manager.  And that's what has caused the successes we're seeing now. 
    Third on the list ... behind Saint Christopher, Lord Bowyer ... and Gobbo.

    ;)

  • The width having TC on one side and Small the other means teams can’t really double up on both players without either sitting deep or leaving gaps elsewhere.

    Since playing this way only Birmingham have been able to handle both, nobody else has come close. Lose either to injury and then teams can double up and make it easier to go after the other.

    Many factors have contributed to the change but for me lose TC or Small you lose the width and the way we’re playing. It’s still largely the same squad that was bumbling about in mid table just a few months ago.

  • I know he's a good general, but is he lucky?
    Napoleon Bonaparte

    The dreadful Crawley game was the last time we saw Taylor and Coventry in the same team. Now, I am not saying Taylor is a bad player, far from it. I quite like him. But as soon as he was substituted, Coventry looked a different player.

    After that, Taylor was on the bench, and Coventry began to really show how good he is.

    That meant that Berry came in, as it was recognised that we needed a midfielder that could deliver in dead balls, whether from corners or free kicks.

    It also meant that Docherty was relieved of the no. 10 position, that was stopping him showing how good he could be, playing as the "box to box" midfielder.

    Then Godden had to be selected, as it was recognised that the striker could no longer be just a big lump, and had to work harder in the press, and bring others into play.

    And, most importantly, accept that a "team" may be better than a sum of all its parts.

    Which is why I won't join in the clamour to replace Berry with Gilbert. NJ sees them in training every day. Not just on match days like the fans. (And in Gilbert's case, maybe only for 20 minutes, when it's easy to look good against a tiring opposition!) 

    All those little things, that needed to coincide, that have turned our season around.

    Yes, I am saying NJ may have been lucky. But the quote above was from Napoleon Bonaparte. And he was pretty damned good at his job...
  • Putting hoofball in the bin and the acceptance from the manager that this is not working and to change it up to better style of football that suits the players that he has it his disposal
  • Agree with the fitness and having a full squad to choose from.
    Dr Will Abbott could turn out to be the best signing of this ownership groups tenure.
    I think there's something to be said for doing the basics right. Passing quality. Moving off the ball. Ball retention. They're are all the sort of things we were getting so badly wrong and manager after manager seemed to overlook problem.
    So pleased NJ had gone through it and ironed it out.
  • Our upturn in form coincided directly with Gavin Carter taking on the Chair role. It’s simply a new Chair bounce.🤣

    In honesty, he probably has had a calming influence behind the scenes - for example not responding to all the calls to sack NJ.

    Of course the main credit must lie with Nathan, the players and the backroom staff.


  • Yes, i thought it was when Non-Executive Chair of the Board: Gavin Carter read the comments on here and had a quiet word with Nathan and others. We all saw what needed to happen and Nathan realised a little while after thanks to Gavin.
  • 1 Jones finding the dressing room.
    2 Scott being frozen out. 
    3 Me growing a lucky beard.
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