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UK to allow driverless cars from January.
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Uber will trial robotaxis - autonomous cars with no human safety driver at the wheel - in London next spring.
The ride-hailing app will work with the UK artificial intelligence (AI) firm Wayve, which has been testing out the technology on the city's streets with human oversight, in line with current legislation.
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The transformational effect it could have on cities and suburbs too. The amount of space dedicated to car related infrastructure just to accommodate them being parked for the majority of the time. We could see much more outdoor seating for dining and eating at restaurants like in European cities. More greenery instead of parking spaces. Nicely done front gardens instead of drives. Trees giving shade to combat the urban heat island effect and improve air quality.seriously_red said:
I read about this after the Brexit vote and at that time there were predictions that 80% of urban journeys would be completed by driverless cars in ten years time... so 2026/27.jimmymelrose said:
Yes. I’ve already said to my children (oldest is 17) that it’s probably not worth bothering. I reckon that driverless cars will be available to buy by 2030 or otherwise it’ll be more like all driverless cars are effectively like taxis.uncle said:Will driving test become a thing of the past?
We are behind that curve but the use case remains the same: why learn to drive and why invest £10-30K in a car that sits around most of the time when one can simply use an Uber App or competitor to summons a driverless car for any trip? And let's not forget fuel, maintenance and insurance.
It may soon become much, much cheaper to live in a built up area?2 -
Drive DriveStefco said:
shit shit0 -
Of course our weather may dictate otherwise for outdoor dining!cantersaddick said:
The transformational effect it could have on cities and suburbs too. The amount of space dedicated to car related infrastructure just to accommodate them being parked for the majority of the time. We could see much more outdoor seating for dining and eating at restaurants like in European cities. More greenery instead of parking spaces. Nicely done front gardens instead of drives. Trees giving shade to combat the urban heat island effect and improve air quality.seriously_red said:
I read about this after the Brexit vote and at that time there were predictions that 80% of urban journeys would be completed by driverless cars in ten years time... so 2026/27.jimmymelrose said:
Yes. I’ve already said to my children (oldest is 17) that it’s probably not worth bothering. I reckon that driverless cars will be available to buy by 2030 or otherwise it’ll be more like all driverless cars are effectively like taxis.uncle said:Will driving test become a thing of the past?
We are behind that curve but the use case remains the same: why learn to drive and why invest £10-30K in a car that sits around most of the time when one can simply use an Uber App or competitor to summons a driverless car for any trip? And let's not forget fuel, maintenance and insurance.
It may soon become much, much cheaper to live in a built up area?
More seriously though if more of us use these driverless cars that will still see a lot of cars on the road and in need of infrastructure as you put it. Not sure how it translates to saved space significantly.0 -
It was in response to the suggestion of calling a driverless car via an app or subscription service rather than owning it.valleynick66 said:
Of course our weather may dictate otherwise for outdoor dining!cantersaddick said:
The transformational effect it could have on cities and suburbs too. The amount of space dedicated to car related infrastructure just to accommodate them being parked for the majority of the time. We could see much more outdoor seating for dining and eating at restaurants like in European cities. More greenery instead of parking spaces. Nicely done front gardens instead of drives. Trees giving shade to combat the urban heat island effect and improve air quality.seriously_red said:
I read about this after the Brexit vote and at that time there were predictions that 80% of urban journeys would be completed by driverless cars in ten years time... so 2026/27.jimmymelrose said:
Yes. I’ve already said to my children (oldest is 17) that it’s probably not worth bothering. I reckon that driverless cars will be available to buy by 2030 or otherwise it’ll be more like all driverless cars are effectively like taxis.uncle said:Will driving test become a thing of the past?
We are behind that curve but the use case remains the same: why learn to drive and why invest £10-30K in a car that sits around most of the time when one can simply use an Uber App or competitor to summons a driverless car for any trip? And let's not forget fuel, maintenance and insurance.
It may soon become much, much cheaper to live in a built up area?
More seriously though if more of us use these driverless cars that will still see a lot of cars on the road and in need of infrastructure as you put it. Not sure how it translates to saved space significantly.
The vast majority of cars spend more than 90% of the time parked. If we move the the above model then a) there would be far fewer cars needing to be parked as they will be off on another job for another customer and b) cars wouldn't need to be parked in residential or city centre areas as they can drive themselves to a suitable parking place in a less busy area.
Therefore more space
All round a much better allocation of resource.2 -
Hmmm. I’m not sure that in Greater London this fleet of cars can all overnight park up in country lanes further out!cantersaddick said:
It was in response to the suggestion of calling a driverless car via an app or subscription service rather than owning it.valleynick66 said:
Of course our weather may dictate otherwise for outdoor dining!cantersaddick said:
The transformational effect it could have on cities and suburbs too. The amount of space dedicated to car related infrastructure just to accommodate them being parked for the majority of the time. We could see much more outdoor seating for dining and eating at restaurants like in European cities. More greenery instead of parking spaces. Nicely done front gardens instead of drives. Trees giving shade to combat the urban heat island effect and improve air quality.seriously_red said:
I read about this after the Brexit vote and at that time there were predictions that 80% of urban journeys would be completed by driverless cars in ten years time... so 2026/27.jimmymelrose said:
Yes. I’ve already said to my children (oldest is 17) that it’s probably not worth bothering. I reckon that driverless cars will be available to buy by 2030 or otherwise it’ll be more like all driverless cars are effectively like taxis.uncle said:Will driving test become a thing of the past?
We are behind that curve but the use case remains the same: why learn to drive and why invest £10-30K in a car that sits around most of the time when one can simply use an Uber App or competitor to summons a driverless car for any trip? And let's not forget fuel, maintenance and insurance.
It may soon become much, much cheaper to live in a built up area?
More seriously though if more of us use these driverless cars that will still see a lot of cars on the road and in need of infrastructure as you put it. Not sure how it translates to saved space significantly.
The vast majority of cars spend more than 90% if the time parked. Of we move the the above model then a) there would be far fewer cars needing to be parked as theybwill be off on another job for another customer and b) cars wouldn't need to be parked in residential or city centre areas as they can drive themselves to a suitable parking place in a less busy area.
Therefore more space
All round a much better allocation of resource.
Maybe we will build huge car parks on the borders of the M25 and see a swarm of cars all driving in to London in the early hours ready for the morning rush hour. That wound be eerie!
long term they will be the norm I’m sure but likely some time beyond that before any material change to re purposing road space.2 -
How's a driverless car going to tackle the Sun in the Sands roundabout as it comes off the a2? (especially if there are people driving at the same time)0
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There will be far fewer cars. If cars spend 90% of their time parked, in theory you need about 90% fewer cars if they’re being used all the time.valleynick66 said:
Hmmm. I’m not sure that in Greater London this fleet of cars can all overnight park up in country lanes further out!cantersaddick said:
It was in response to the suggestion of calling a driverless car via an app or subscription service rather than owning it.valleynick66 said:
Of course our weather may dictate otherwise for outdoor dining!cantersaddick said:
The transformational effect it could have on cities and suburbs too. The amount of space dedicated to car related infrastructure just to accommodate them being parked for the majority of the time. We could see much more outdoor seating for dining and eating at restaurants like in European cities. More greenery instead of parking spaces. Nicely done front gardens instead of drives. Trees giving shade to combat the urban heat island effect and improve air quality.seriously_red said:
I read about this after the Brexit vote and at that time there were predictions that 80% of urban journeys would be completed by driverless cars in ten years time... so 2026/27.jimmymelrose said:
Yes. I’ve already said to my children (oldest is 17) that it’s probably not worth bothering. I reckon that driverless cars will be available to buy by 2030 or otherwise it’ll be more like all driverless cars are effectively like taxis.uncle said:Will driving test become a thing of the past?
We are behind that curve but the use case remains the same: why learn to drive and why invest £10-30K in a car that sits around most of the time when one can simply use an Uber App or competitor to summons a driverless car for any trip? And let's not forget fuel, maintenance and insurance.
It may soon become much, much cheaper to live in a built up area?
More seriously though if more of us use these driverless cars that will still see a lot of cars on the road and in need of infrastructure as you put it. Not sure how it translates to saved space significantly.
The vast majority of cars spend more than 90% if the time parked. Of we move the the above model then a) there would be far fewer cars needing to be parked as theybwill be off on another job for another customer and b) cars wouldn't need to be parked in residential or city centre areas as they can drive themselves to a suitable parking place in a less busy area.
Therefore more space
All round a much better allocation of resource.
Maybe we will build huge car parks on the borders of the M25 and see a swarm of cars all driving in to London in the early hours ready for the morning rush hour. That wound be eerie!
long term they will be the norm I’m sure but likely some time beyond that before any material change to re purposing road space.0 - Sponsored links:
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Only if the 10% when they are being driven is evenly spaced. In fact that will be peaks of demands at commuting times but you would still see a significant reduction- I'd guess more like 50% thoughAddicksAddict said:
There will be far fewer cars. If cars spend 90% of their time parked, in theory you need about 90% fewer cars if they’re being used all the time.valleynick66 said:
Hmmm. I’m not sure that in Greater London this fleet of cars can all overnight park up in country lanes further out!cantersaddick said:
It was in response to the suggestion of calling a driverless car via an app or subscription service rather than owning it.valleynick66 said:
Of course our weather may dictate otherwise for outdoor dining!cantersaddick said:
The transformational effect it could have on cities and suburbs too. The amount of space dedicated to car related infrastructure just to accommodate them being parked for the majority of the time. We could see much more outdoor seating for dining and eating at restaurants like in European cities. More greenery instead of parking spaces. Nicely done front gardens instead of drives. Trees giving shade to combat the urban heat island effect and improve air quality.seriously_red said:
I read about this after the Brexit vote and at that time there were predictions that 80% of urban journeys would be completed by driverless cars in ten years time... so 2026/27.jimmymelrose said:
Yes. I’ve already said to my children (oldest is 17) that it’s probably not worth bothering. I reckon that driverless cars will be available to buy by 2030 or otherwise it’ll be more like all driverless cars are effectively like taxis.uncle said:Will driving test become a thing of the past?
We are behind that curve but the use case remains the same: why learn to drive and why invest £10-30K in a car that sits around most of the time when one can simply use an Uber App or competitor to summons a driverless car for any trip? And let's not forget fuel, maintenance and insurance.
It may soon become much, much cheaper to live in a built up area?
More seriously though if more of us use these driverless cars that will still see a lot of cars on the road and in need of infrastructure as you put it. Not sure how it translates to saved space significantly.
The vast majority of cars spend more than 90% if the time parked. Of we move the the above model then a) there would be far fewer cars needing to be parked as theybwill be off on another job for another customer and b) cars wouldn't need to be parked in residential or city centre areas as they can drive themselves to a suitable parking place in a less busy area.
Therefore more space
All round a much better allocation of resource.
Maybe we will build huge car parks on the borders of the M25 and see a swarm of cars all driving in to London in the early hours ready for the morning rush hour. That wound be eerie!
long term they will be the norm I’m sure but likely some time beyond that before any material change to re purposing road space.5 -
Yes, likely about right. But thats still 50% fewer cars needing ton e parked and therefore 50% or more of existing parking spaces that can be repurposed.Jints said:
Only if the 10% when they are being driven is evenly spaced. In fact that will be peaks of demands at commuting times but you would still see a significant reduction- I'd guess more like 50% thoughAddicksAddict said:
There will be far fewer cars. If cars spend 90% of their time parked, in theory you need about 90% fewer cars if they’re being used all the time.valleynick66 said:
Hmmm. I’m not sure that in Greater London this fleet of cars can all overnight park up in country lanes further out!cantersaddick said:
It was in response to the suggestion of calling a driverless car via an app or subscription service rather than owning it.valleynick66 said:
Of course our weather may dictate otherwise for outdoor dining!cantersaddick said:
The transformational effect it could have on cities and suburbs too. The amount of space dedicated to car related infrastructure just to accommodate them being parked for the majority of the time. We could see much more outdoor seating for dining and eating at restaurants like in European cities. More greenery instead of parking spaces. Nicely done front gardens instead of drives. Trees giving shade to combat the urban heat island effect and improve air quality.seriously_red said:
I read about this after the Brexit vote and at that time there were predictions that 80% of urban journeys would be completed by driverless cars in ten years time... so 2026/27.jimmymelrose said:
Yes. I’ve already said to my children (oldest is 17) that it’s probably not worth bothering. I reckon that driverless cars will be available to buy by 2030 or otherwise it’ll be more like all driverless cars are effectively like taxis.uncle said:Will driving test become a thing of the past?
We are behind that curve but the use case remains the same: why learn to drive and why invest £10-30K in a car that sits around most of the time when one can simply use an Uber App or competitor to summons a driverless car for any trip? And let's not forget fuel, maintenance and insurance.
It may soon become much, much cheaper to live in a built up area?
More seriously though if more of us use these driverless cars that will still see a lot of cars on the road and in need of infrastructure as you put it. Not sure how it translates to saved space significantly.
The vast majority of cars spend more than 90% if the time parked. Of we move the the above model then a) there would be far fewer cars needing to be parked as theybwill be off on another job for another customer and b) cars wouldn't need to be parked in residential or city centre areas as they can drive themselves to a suitable parking place in a less busy area.
Therefore more space
All round a much better allocation of resource.
Maybe we will build huge car parks on the borders of the M25 and see a swarm of cars all driving in to London in the early hours ready for the morning rush hour. That wound be eerie!
long term they will be the norm I’m sure but likely some time beyond that before any material change to re purposing road space.0 -
I raise your sun in the sands to hyde park corner 😂 I really can't wait to see them trying to get off the picadilly slip and out onto hyde park corner. Also a number of Londons zebra crossings which have a constant stream of people where you have to pick your moment with precision to move past it.maddferrett said:How's a driverless car going to tackle the Sun in the Sands roundabout as it comes off the a2? (especially if there are people driving at the same time)1 -
But….cantersaddick said:
Yes, likely about right. But thats still 50% fewer cars needing ton e parked and therefore 50% or more of existing parking spaces that can be repurposed.Jints said:
Only if the 10% when they are being driven is evenly spaced. In fact that will be peaks of demands at commuting times but you would still see a significant reduction- I'd guess more like 50% thoughAddicksAddict said:
There will be far fewer cars. If cars spend 90% of their time parked, in theory you need about 90% fewer cars if they’re being used all the time.valleynick66 said:
Hmmm. I’m not sure that in Greater London this fleet of cars can all overnight park up in country lanes further out!cantersaddick said:
It was in response to the suggestion of calling a driverless car via an app or subscription service rather than owning it.valleynick66 said:
Of course our weather may dictate otherwise for outdoor dining!cantersaddick said:
The transformational effect it could have on cities and suburbs too. The amount of space dedicated to car related infrastructure just to accommodate them being parked for the majority of the time. We could see much more outdoor seating for dining and eating at restaurants like in European cities. More greenery instead of parking spaces. Nicely done front gardens instead of drives. Trees giving shade to combat the urban heat island effect and improve air quality.seriously_red said:
I read about this after the Brexit vote and at that time there were predictions that 80% of urban journeys would be completed by driverless cars in ten years time... so 2026/27.jimmymelrose said:
Yes. I’ve already said to my children (oldest is 17) that it’s probably not worth bothering. I reckon that driverless cars will be available to buy by 2030 or otherwise it’ll be more like all driverless cars are effectively like taxis.uncle said:Will driving test become a thing of the past?
We are behind that curve but the use case remains the same: why learn to drive and why invest £10-30K in a car that sits around most of the time when one can simply use an Uber App or competitor to summons a driverless car for any trip? And let's not forget fuel, maintenance and insurance.
It may soon become much, much cheaper to live in a built up area?
More seriously though if more of us use these driverless cars that will still see a lot of cars on the road and in need of infrastructure as you put it. Not sure how it translates to saved space significantly.
The vast majority of cars spend more than 90% if the time parked. Of we move the the above model then a) there would be far fewer cars needing to be parked as theybwill be off on another job for another customer and b) cars wouldn't need to be parked in residential or city centre areas as they can drive themselves to a suitable parking place in a less busy area.
Therefore more space
All round a much better allocation of resource.
Maybe we will build huge car parks on the borders of the M25 and see a swarm of cars all driving in to London in the early hours ready for the morning rush hour. That wound be eerie!
long term they will be the norm I’m sure but likely some time beyond that before any material change to re purposing road space.
Most parking is in side / suburban roads who maybe don’t have a driveway. I don’t see how that changes materially those areas. Likewise in city centre areas wound still be needed to arrive at / load etc.
As said a long time before any land us reclaimed to change the look and feel of areas even when such cars are commonplace.0 -
Carefully, and with due care and attention to every other road user, while deploying a 360-degree understanding of the movement of every other vehicle and pedestrian in the vicinity.maddferrett said:How's a driverless car going to tackle the Sun in the Sands roundabout as it comes off the a2? (especially if there are people driving at the same time)
In other words, far better than everyone else.2 -
it would never move then on a matchday.Chizz said:
Carefully, and with due care and attention to every other road user, while deploying a 360-degree understanding of the movement of every other vehicle and pedestrian in the vicinity.maddferrett said:How's a driverless car going to tackle the Sun in the Sands roundabout as it comes off the a2? (especially if there are people driving at the same time)
In other words, far better than everyone else.0 -
As an example of this. Northmapton has a fleet of robots where you can order from coop or Tesco (other supermarkets are available) and the robot delivers it to your house.O-Randy-Hunt said:
I raise your sun in the sands to hyde park corner 😂 I really can't wait to see them trying to get off the picadilly slip and out onto hyde park corner. Also a number of Londons zebra crossings which have a constant stream of people where you have to pick your moment with precision to move past it.maddferrett said:How's a driverless car going to tackle the Sun in the Sands roundabout as it comes off the a2? (especially if there are people driving at the same time)Fairly often, you see the robots stuck trying to cross the road ‘safely’ but the gap between cars is too small. I can see this being the case with driverless cars also, but I am sure the brains behind this have considered it (eg communication between cars so that others give right of way if a car has been waiting too long).0 -
I don’t think it’s going to be quite as transformational as people think. Certainly not in the medium term. Regardless of whether your car sits outside doing nothing for most of its life it’s still always ready and waiting at a few seconds notice. I think ordering your transport via an app and having it arrive when one becomes available might prove problematic at various times for many. I also despite the hype have serious doubts regarding the technology as it currently stands. I guess the proof of the pudding will be in the eating and it could be a smooth transition but I’m willing to bet it will be full of glitches and I’ll also bet that the trial will be pulled a good few times before it’s completely trouble free. Looking longer term there are also huge implications for jobs. All driving related jobs will be redundant. No taxi drivers, delivery drivers, bus drivers. I suppose the local plumber or electrician still needs his personal van but will he tap in an address and sit back ? I’m guessing yes. Don’t see this all impacting most of our lives for another 20 years.4
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Yes technically very challenging when human beings can jump in the way.gringo said:
it would never move then on a matchday.Chizz said:
Carefully, and with due care and attention to every other road user, while deploying a 360-degree understanding of the movement of every other vehicle and pedestrian in the vicinity.maddferrett said:How's a driverless car going to tackle the Sun in the Sands roundabout as it comes off the a2? (especially if there are people driving at the same time)
In other words, far better than everyone else.The analogy in my head for now are the robot floor cleaners you see at train stations etc. Well able to stop bumping into people but forced to become static for periods.Of course it will happen but humans will need to change behaviour too and better observe Road crossing points I expect.0 -
EventuallyChizz said:
Carefully, and with due care and attention to every other road user, while deploying a 360-degree understanding of the movement of every other vehicle and pedestrian in the vicinity.maddferrett said:How's a driverless car going to tackle the Sun in the Sands roundabout as it comes off the a2? (especially if there are people driving at the same time)
In other words, far better than everyone else.0 - Sponsored links:
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Other driverless cars maybe. Humans, not so much. I wish I could give a video of hyde park corner currently but you have to fight your way onto it from every direction and hope another driver is feeling generous. I can't see many drivers waving through a driverless vehicle unless the passengers get out and start kicking off 😂BalladMan said:
As an example of this. Northmapton has a fleet of robots where you can order from coop or Tesco (other supermarkets are available) and the robot delivers it to your house.O-Randy-Hunt said:
I raise your sun in the sands to hyde park corner 😂 I really can't wait to see them trying to get off the picadilly slip and out onto hyde park corner. Also a number of Londons zebra crossings which have a constant stream of people where you have to pick your moment with precision to move past it.maddferrett said:How's a driverless car going to tackle the Sun in the Sands roundabout as it comes off the a2? (especially if there are people driving at the same time)Fairly often, you see the robots stuck trying to cross the road ‘safely’ but the gap between cars is too small. I can see this being the case with driverless cars also, but I am sure the brains behind this have considered it (eg communication between cars so that others give right of way if a car has been waiting too long).
The easiest option is changing the layout of the road.0 -
Bet the good people of Dartford can't wait.valleynick66 said:
Hmmm. I’m not sure that in Greater London this fleet of cars can all overnight park up in country lanes further out!cantersaddick said:
It was in response to the suggestion of calling a driverless car via an app or subscription service rather than owning it.valleynick66 said:
Of course our weather may dictate otherwise for outdoor dining!cantersaddick said:
The transformational effect it could have on cities and suburbs too. The amount of space dedicated to car related infrastructure just to accommodate them being parked for the majority of the time. We could see much more outdoor seating for dining and eating at restaurants like in European cities. More greenery instead of parking spaces. Nicely done front gardens instead of drives. Trees giving shade to combat the urban heat island effect and improve air quality.seriously_red said:
I read about this after the Brexit vote and at that time there were predictions that 80% of urban journeys would be completed by driverless cars in ten years time... so 2026/27.jimmymelrose said:
Yes. I’ve already said to my children (oldest is 17) that it’s probably not worth bothering. I reckon that driverless cars will be available to buy by 2030 or otherwise it’ll be more like all driverless cars are effectively like taxis.uncle said:Will driving test become a thing of the past?
We are behind that curve but the use case remains the same: why learn to drive and why invest £10-30K in a car that sits around most of the time when one can simply use an Uber App or competitor to summons a driverless car for any trip? And let's not forget fuel, maintenance and insurance.
It may soon become much, much cheaper to live in a built up area?
More seriously though if more of us use these driverless cars that will still see a lot of cars on the road and in need of infrastructure as you put it. Not sure how it translates to saved space significantly.
The vast majority of cars spend more than 90% if the time parked. Of we move the the above model then a) there would be far fewer cars needing to be parked as theybwill be off on another job for another customer and b) cars wouldn't need to be parked in residential or city centre areas as they can drive themselves to a suitable parking place in a less busy area.
Therefore more space
All round a much better allocation of resource.
Maybe we will build huge car parks on the borders of the M25 and see a swarm of cars all driving in to London in the early hours ready for the morning rush hour. That wound be eerie!
long term they will be the norm I’m sure but likely some time beyond that before any material change to re purposing road space.1 -
Had a go in a couple in San Francisco. If you ask the car if it's been busy and what time it will finish, it doesn't answer. So that's good. I get the stuff about us all giving up our cars but yesterday in town I waited nearly 30 for an Uber/Bolt and so it will be hard to give up the car parked outside.0
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Fancy being in an Autonomous Vehicle on the A13, turning left onto the Blackwall Tunnel when some Tippers want to go in the same direction?What about on a motorway when a truck changes lanes without indicating?Or it turns up to pick you up and the last passenger has vomited in the back?0
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There are a number of problem areas envisaged by posters but maybe they are thinking too much like a human.
If you consider the 'Sun in the Sands' problem, driverless cars avoiding each other is straightforward. If you've seen drones doing it in 3D then driverless cars in 2D is a piece of cake.
Include human drivers in the equation then you have a few minor potential issues but this is where a major decision has to be made. If we conclude that, in the interests of safer roads provided by driverless cars, human controlled cars have to be withdrawn quicker than might have been expected.
Newer cars have so many of the features needed for driverless control built-in. They have already undergone countless miles of testing. The major difficulty is getting us humans to overcome natural reluctance.
Parking is interesting as driverless cars will do this much more efficiently whether parallel or in car parks where cars can be parked much closer together.
I think it may happen quicker than we expect.2 -
Sure it wont be immediate but there is definite scope for this to happen. Its happened in cities like Amsterdam and Paris in areas where they have discouraged car use. In places where there arent drives on street parking is common (many places have both drives and on street parking). If we move away from the car ownership model then that on street parking is not needed to the same extent at all. There will need to be some spaces for loading, unloading, delivery, pick ups etc but if these are all generally short stops then there is a massively lower need for these. So space previously given to street parking can either be given to road space to improve flow (likely to be unnecessary in many cases in suburbia) or to grass verges and trees. Or many a bit of both, street parking on one side of the road given to road space and the other side given to trees and verges with pull in spaces every 100 yards?. I saw a graphic a few months ago showing what proportion of cities are used for parked car infrastructure. Not moving cars but parked. Its a scary proportion of the land space in cities. I'll try and dig it out.valleynick66 said:
But….cantersaddick said:
Yes, likely about right. But thats still 50% fewer cars needing ton e parked and therefore 50% or more of existing parking spaces that can be repurposed.Jints said:
Only if the 10% when they are being driven is evenly spaced. In fact that will be peaks of demands at commuting times but you would still see a significant reduction- I'd guess more like 50% thoughAddicksAddict said:
There will be far fewer cars. If cars spend 90% of their time parked, in theory you need about 90% fewer cars if they’re being used all the time.valleynick66 said:
Hmmm. I’m not sure that in Greater London this fleet of cars can all overnight park up in country lanes further out!cantersaddick said:
It was in response to the suggestion of calling a driverless car via an app or subscription service rather than owning it.valleynick66 said:
Of course our weather may dictate otherwise for outdoor dining!cantersaddick said:
The transformational effect it could have on cities and suburbs too. The amount of space dedicated to car related infrastructure just to accommodate them being parked for the majority of the time. We could see much more outdoor seating for dining and eating at restaurants like in European cities. More greenery instead of parking spaces. Nicely done front gardens instead of drives. Trees giving shade to combat the urban heat island effect and improve air quality.seriously_red said:
I read about this after the Brexit vote and at that time there were predictions that 80% of urban journeys would be completed by driverless cars in ten years time... so 2026/27.jimmymelrose said:
Yes. I’ve already said to my children (oldest is 17) that it’s probably not worth bothering. I reckon that driverless cars will be available to buy by 2030 or otherwise it’ll be more like all driverless cars are effectively like taxis.uncle said:Will driving test become a thing of the past?
We are behind that curve but the use case remains the same: why learn to drive and why invest £10-30K in a car that sits around most of the time when one can simply use an Uber App or competitor to summons a driverless car for any trip? And let's not forget fuel, maintenance and insurance.
It may soon become much, much cheaper to live in a built up area?
More seriously though if more of us use these driverless cars that will still see a lot of cars on the road and in need of infrastructure as you put it. Not sure how it translates to saved space significantly.
The vast majority of cars spend more than 90% if the time parked. Of we move the the above model then a) there would be far fewer cars needing to be parked as theybwill be off on another job for another customer and b) cars wouldn't need to be parked in residential or city centre areas as they can drive themselves to a suitable parking place in a less busy area.
Therefore more space
All round a much better allocation of resource.
Maybe we will build huge car parks on the borders of the M25 and see a swarm of cars all driving in to London in the early hours ready for the morning rush hour. That wound be eerie!
long term they will be the norm I’m sure but likely some time beyond that before any material change to re purposing road space.
Most parking is in side / suburban roads who maybe don’t have a driveway. I don’t see how that changes materially those areas. Likewise in city centre areas wound still be needed to arrive at / load etc.
As said a long time before any land us reclaimed to change the look and feel of areas even when such cars are commonplace.
1 -
What you describe is simply what roads looked like a generation ago when homes did not typically have more than one car and many had none.cantersaddick said:
Sure it wont be immediate but there is definite scope for this to happen. Its happened in cities like Amsterdam and Paris in areas where they have discouraged car use. In places where there arent drives on street parking is common (many places have both drives and on street parking). If we move away from the car ownership model then that on street parking is not needed to the same extent at all. There will need to be some spaces for loading, unloading, delivery, pick ups etc but if these are all generally short stops then there is a massively lower need for these. So space previously given to street parking can either be given to road space to improve flow (likely to be unnecessary in many cases in suburbia) or to grass verges and trees. Or many a bit of both, street parking on one side of the road given to road space and the other side given to trees and verges with pull in spaces every 100 yards?. I saw a graphic a few months ago showing what proportion of cities are used for parked car infrastructure. Not moving cars but parked. Its a scary proportion of the land space in cities. I'll try and dig it out.valleynick66 said:
But….cantersaddick said:
Yes, likely about right. But thats still 50% fewer cars needing ton e parked and therefore 50% or more of existing parking spaces that can be repurposed.Jints said:
Only if the 10% when they are being driven is evenly spaced. In fact that will be peaks of demands at commuting times but you would still see a significant reduction- I'd guess more like 50% thoughAddicksAddict said:
There will be far fewer cars. If cars spend 90% of their time parked, in theory you need about 90% fewer cars if they’re being used all the time.valleynick66 said:
Hmmm. I’m not sure that in Greater London this fleet of cars can all overnight park up in country lanes further out!cantersaddick said:
It was in response to the suggestion of calling a driverless car via an app or subscription service rather than owning it.valleynick66 said:
Of course our weather may dictate otherwise for outdoor dining!cantersaddick said:
The transformational effect it could have on cities and suburbs too. The amount of space dedicated to car related infrastructure just to accommodate them being parked for the majority of the time. We could see much more outdoor seating for dining and eating at restaurants like in European cities. More greenery instead of parking spaces. Nicely done front gardens instead of drives. Trees giving shade to combat the urban heat island effect and improve air quality.seriously_red said:
I read about this after the Brexit vote and at that time there were predictions that 80% of urban journeys would be completed by driverless cars in ten years time... so 2026/27.jimmymelrose said:
Yes. I’ve already said to my children (oldest is 17) that it’s probably not worth bothering. I reckon that driverless cars will be available to buy by 2030 or otherwise it’ll be more like all driverless cars are effectively like taxis.uncle said:Will driving test become a thing of the past?
We are behind that curve but the use case remains the same: why learn to drive and why invest £10-30K in a car that sits around most of the time when one can simply use an Uber App or competitor to summons a driverless car for any trip? And let's not forget fuel, maintenance and insurance.
It may soon become much, much cheaper to live in a built up area?
More seriously though if more of us use these driverless cars that will still see a lot of cars on the road and in need of infrastructure as you put it. Not sure how it translates to saved space significantly.
The vast majority of cars spend more than 90% if the time parked. Of we move the the above model then a) there would be far fewer cars needing to be parked as theybwill be off on another job for another customer and b) cars wouldn't need to be parked in residential or city centre areas as they can drive themselves to a suitable parking place in a less busy area.
Therefore more space
All round a much better allocation of resource.
Maybe we will build huge car parks on the borders of the M25 and see a swarm of cars all driving in to London in the early hours ready for the morning rush hour. That wound be eerie!
long term they will be the norm I’m sure but likely some time beyond that before any material change to re purposing road space.
Most parking is in side / suburban roads who maybe don’t have a driveway. I don’t see how that changes materially those areas. Likewise in city centre areas wound still be needed to arrive at / load etc.
As said a long time before any land us reclaimed to change the look and feel of areas even when such cars are commonplace.It may well transpire and will be influenced by what happens to public transport and how affordable these shared cars are or if they become the privilege of the wealthy. Only time will tell.1 -
Yes and returning to such would be transformational and of huge benefit.valleynick66 said:
What you describe is simply what roads looked like a generation ago when homes did not typically have more than one car and many had none.cantersaddick said:
Sure it wont be immediate but there is definite scope for this to happen. Its happened in cities like Amsterdam and Paris in areas where they have discouraged car use. In places where there arent drives on street parking is common (many places have both drives and on street parking). If we move away from the car ownership model then that on street parking is not needed to the same extent at all. There will need to be some spaces for loading, unloading, delivery, pick ups etc but if these are all generally short stops then there is a massively lower need for these. So space previously given to street parking can either be given to road space to improve flow (likely to be unnecessary in many cases in suburbia) or to grass verges and trees. Or many a bit of both, street parking on one side of the road given to road space and the other side given to trees and verges with pull in spaces every 100 yards?. I saw a graphic a few months ago showing what proportion of cities are used for parked car infrastructure. Not moving cars but parked. Its a scary proportion of the land space in cities. I'll try and dig it out.valleynick66 said:
But….cantersaddick said:
Yes, likely about right. But thats still 50% fewer cars needing ton e parked and therefore 50% or more of existing parking spaces that can be repurposed.Jints said:
Only if the 10% when they are being driven is evenly spaced. In fact that will be peaks of demands at commuting times but you would still see a significant reduction- I'd guess more like 50% thoughAddicksAddict said:
There will be far fewer cars. If cars spend 90% of their time parked, in theory you need about 90% fewer cars if they’re being used all the time.valleynick66 said:
Hmmm. I’m not sure that in Greater London this fleet of cars can all overnight park up in country lanes further out!cantersaddick said:
It was in response to the suggestion of calling a driverless car via an app or subscription service rather than owning it.valleynick66 said:
Of course our weather may dictate otherwise for outdoor dining!cantersaddick said:
The transformational effect it could have on cities and suburbs too. The amount of space dedicated to car related infrastructure just to accommodate them being parked for the majority of the time. We could see much more outdoor seating for dining and eating at restaurants like in European cities. More greenery instead of parking spaces. Nicely done front gardens instead of drives. Trees giving shade to combat the urban heat island effect and improve air quality.seriously_red said:
I read about this after the Brexit vote and at that time there were predictions that 80% of urban journeys would be completed by driverless cars in ten years time... so 2026/27.jimmymelrose said:
Yes. I’ve already said to my children (oldest is 17) that it’s probably not worth bothering. I reckon that driverless cars will be available to buy by 2030 or otherwise it’ll be more like all driverless cars are effectively like taxis.uncle said:Will driving test become a thing of the past?
We are behind that curve but the use case remains the same: why learn to drive and why invest £10-30K in a car that sits around most of the time when one can simply use an Uber App or competitor to summons a driverless car for any trip? And let's not forget fuel, maintenance and insurance.
It may soon become much, much cheaper to live in a built up area?
More seriously though if more of us use these driverless cars that will still see a lot of cars on the road and in need of infrastructure as you put it. Not sure how it translates to saved space significantly.
The vast majority of cars spend more than 90% if the time parked. Of we move the the above model then a) there would be far fewer cars needing to be parked as theybwill be off on another job for another customer and b) cars wouldn't need to be parked in residential or city centre areas as they can drive themselves to a suitable parking place in a less busy area.
Therefore more space
All round a much better allocation of resource.
Maybe we will build huge car parks on the borders of the M25 and see a swarm of cars all driving in to London in the early hours ready for the morning rush hour. That wound be eerie!
long term they will be the norm I’m sure but likely some time beyond that before any material change to re purposing road space.
Most parking is in side / suburban roads who maybe don’t have a driveway. I don’t see how that changes materially those areas. Likewise in city centre areas wound still be needed to arrive at / load etc.
As said a long time before any land us reclaimed to change the look and feel of areas even when such cars are commonplace.It may well transpire and will be influenced by what happens to public transport and how affordable these shared cars are or if they become the privilege of the wealthy. Only time will tell.
I've said enough on this forum about funding and improving public transport so I wont get started down that route! Given the lack of up front costs and admin such as insurance maintenance and tax these subscription services (as seen with Uber etc) have much lower barriers to entry compared with purchasing a car. Better public transport would reduce the need for them which is ideal but these are good options.0 -
If they could make longer distance drives economical rather than equivalent of an existing taxi, as well as being able to get bigger van size ones to load stuff into, I could see it really transforming.cantersaddick said:
Yes and returning to such would be transformational and of huge benefit.valleynick66 said:
What you describe is simply what roads looked like a generation ago when homes did not typically have more than one car and many had none.cantersaddick said:
Sure it wont be immediate but there is definite scope for this to happen. Its happened in cities like Amsterdam and Paris in areas where they have discouraged car use. In places where there arent drives on street parking is common (many places have both drives and on street parking). If we move away from the car ownership model then that on street parking is not needed to the same extent at all. There will need to be some spaces for loading, unloading, delivery, pick ups etc but if these are all generally short stops then there is a massively lower need for these. So space previously given to street parking can either be given to road space to improve flow (likely to be unnecessary in many cases in suburbia) or to grass verges and trees. Or many a bit of both, street parking on one side of the road given to road space and the other side given to trees and verges with pull in spaces every 100 yards?. I saw a graphic a few months ago showing what proportion of cities are used for parked car infrastructure. Not moving cars but parked. Its a scary proportion of the land space in cities. I'll try and dig it out.valleynick66 said:
But….cantersaddick said:
Yes, likely about right. But thats still 50% fewer cars needing ton e parked and therefore 50% or more of existing parking spaces that can be repurposed.Jints said:
Only if the 10% when they are being driven is evenly spaced. In fact that will be peaks of demands at commuting times but you would still see a significant reduction- I'd guess more like 50% thoughAddicksAddict said:
There will be far fewer cars. If cars spend 90% of their time parked, in theory you need about 90% fewer cars if they’re being used all the time.valleynick66 said:
Hmmm. I’m not sure that in Greater London this fleet of cars can all overnight park up in country lanes further out!cantersaddick said:
It was in response to the suggestion of calling a driverless car via an app or subscription service rather than owning it.valleynick66 said:
Of course our weather may dictate otherwise for outdoor dining!cantersaddick said:
The transformational effect it could have on cities and suburbs too. The amount of space dedicated to car related infrastructure just to accommodate them being parked for the majority of the time. We could see much more outdoor seating for dining and eating at restaurants like in European cities. More greenery instead of parking spaces. Nicely done front gardens instead of drives. Trees giving shade to combat the urban heat island effect and improve air quality.seriously_red said:
I read about this after the Brexit vote and at that time there were predictions that 80% of urban journeys would be completed by driverless cars in ten years time... so 2026/27.jimmymelrose said:
Yes. I’ve already said to my children (oldest is 17) that it’s probably not worth bothering. I reckon that driverless cars will be available to buy by 2030 or otherwise it’ll be more like all driverless cars are effectively like taxis.uncle said:Will driving test become a thing of the past?
We are behind that curve but the use case remains the same: why learn to drive and why invest £10-30K in a car that sits around most of the time when one can simply use an Uber App or competitor to summons a driverless car for any trip? And let's not forget fuel, maintenance and insurance.
It may soon become much, much cheaper to live in a built up area?
More seriously though if more of us use these driverless cars that will still see a lot of cars on the road and in need of infrastructure as you put it. Not sure how it translates to saved space significantly.
The vast majority of cars spend more than 90% if the time parked. Of we move the the above model then a) there would be far fewer cars needing to be parked as theybwill be off on another job for another customer and b) cars wouldn't need to be parked in residential or city centre areas as they can drive themselves to a suitable parking place in a less busy area.
Therefore more space
All round a much better allocation of resource.
Maybe we will build huge car parks on the borders of the M25 and see a swarm of cars all driving in to London in the early hours ready for the morning rush hour. That wound be eerie!
long term they will be the norm I’m sure but likely some time beyond that before any material change to re purposing road space.
Most parking is in side / suburban roads who maybe don’t have a driveway. I don’t see how that changes materially those areas. Likewise in city centre areas wound still be needed to arrive at / load etc.
As said a long time before any land us reclaimed to change the look and feel of areas even when such cars are commonplace.It may well transpire and will be influenced by what happens to public transport and how affordable these shared cars are or if they become the privilege of the wealthy. Only time will tell.
I've said enough on this forum about funding and improving public transport so I wont get started down that route! Given the lack of up front costs and admin such as insurance maintenance and tax these subscription services (as seen with Uber etc) have much lower barriers to entry compared with purchasing a car. Better public transport would reduce the need for them which is ideal but these are good options.
Could supercharge the move to electric, if let's say, you go 300 miles in car A then get out a service station, hope straight into car B and get going...
If both of the above could happen I would consider giving up my car.1 -
I think we all agree it’s a positive. Cynically I worry the commerciality will mean it might not be cheaper than personal ownership however. Lots of vested interests to accommodate.Huskaris said:
If they could make longer distance drives economical rather than equivalent of an existing taxi, as well as being able to get bigger van size ones to load stuff into, I could see it really transforming.cantersaddick said:
Yes and returning to such would be transformational and of huge benefit.valleynick66 said:
What you describe is simply what roads looked like a generation ago when homes did not typically have more than one car and many had none.cantersaddick said:
Sure it wont be immediate but there is definite scope for this to happen. Its happened in cities like Amsterdam and Paris in areas where they have discouraged car use. In places where there arent drives on street parking is common (many places have both drives and on street parking). If we move away from the car ownership model then that on street parking is not needed to the same extent at all. There will need to be some spaces for loading, unloading, delivery, pick ups etc but if these are all generally short stops then there is a massively lower need for these. So space previously given to street parking can either be given to road space to improve flow (likely to be unnecessary in many cases in suburbia) or to grass verges and trees. Or many a bit of both, street parking on one side of the road given to road space and the other side given to trees and verges with pull in spaces every 100 yards?. I saw a graphic a few months ago showing what proportion of cities are used for parked car infrastructure. Not moving cars but parked. Its a scary proportion of the land space in cities. I'll try and dig it out.valleynick66 said:
But….cantersaddick said:
Yes, likely about right. But thats still 50% fewer cars needing ton e parked and therefore 50% or more of existing parking spaces that can be repurposed.Jints said:
Only if the 10% when they are being driven is evenly spaced. In fact that will be peaks of demands at commuting times but you would still see a significant reduction- I'd guess more like 50% thoughAddicksAddict said:
There will be far fewer cars. If cars spend 90% of their time parked, in theory you need about 90% fewer cars if they’re being used all the time.valleynick66 said:
Hmmm. I’m not sure that in Greater London this fleet of cars can all overnight park up in country lanes further out!cantersaddick said:
It was in response to the suggestion of calling a driverless car via an app or subscription service rather than owning it.valleynick66 said:
Of course our weather may dictate otherwise for outdoor dining!cantersaddick said:
The transformational effect it could have on cities and suburbs too. The amount of space dedicated to car related infrastructure just to accommodate them being parked for the majority of the time. We could see much more outdoor seating for dining and eating at restaurants like in European cities. More greenery instead of parking spaces. Nicely done front gardens instead of drives. Trees giving shade to combat the urban heat island effect and improve air quality.seriously_red said:
I read about this after the Brexit vote and at that time there were predictions that 80% of urban journeys would be completed by driverless cars in ten years time... so 2026/27.jimmymelrose said:
Yes. I’ve already said to my children (oldest is 17) that it’s probably not worth bothering. I reckon that driverless cars will be available to buy by 2030 or otherwise it’ll be more like all driverless cars are effectively like taxis.uncle said:Will driving test become a thing of the past?
We are behind that curve but the use case remains the same: why learn to drive and why invest £10-30K in a car that sits around most of the time when one can simply use an Uber App or competitor to summons a driverless car for any trip? And let's not forget fuel, maintenance and insurance.
It may soon become much, much cheaper to live in a built up area?
More seriously though if more of us use these driverless cars that will still see a lot of cars on the road and in need of infrastructure as you put it. Not sure how it translates to saved space significantly.
The vast majority of cars spend more than 90% if the time parked. Of we move the the above model then a) there would be far fewer cars needing to be parked as theybwill be off on another job for another customer and b) cars wouldn't need to be parked in residential or city centre areas as they can drive themselves to a suitable parking place in a less busy area.
Therefore more space
All round a much better allocation of resource.
Maybe we will build huge car parks on the borders of the M25 and see a swarm of cars all driving in to London in the early hours ready for the morning rush hour. That wound be eerie!
long term they will be the norm I’m sure but likely some time beyond that before any material change to re purposing road space.
Most parking is in side / suburban roads who maybe don’t have a driveway. I don’t see how that changes materially those areas. Likewise in city centre areas wound still be needed to arrive at / load etc.
As said a long time before any land us reclaimed to change the look and feel of areas even when such cars are commonplace.It may well transpire and will be influenced by what happens to public transport and how affordable these shared cars are or if they become the privilege of the wealthy. Only time will tell.
I've said enough on this forum about funding and improving public transport so I wont get started down that route! Given the lack of up front costs and admin such as insurance maintenance and tax these subscription services (as seen with Uber etc) have much lower barriers to entry compared with purchasing a car. Better public transport would reduce the need for them which is ideal but these are good options.
Could supercharge the move to electric, if let's say, you go 300 miles in car A then get out a service station, hope straight into car B and get going...
If both of the above could happen I would consider giving up my car.Regardless it’s going to happen (driverless) in some form because technology is moving at a huge pace and that is good.0
