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After the Millwall game - club reply to CAST p34, further CAST response p45
Comments
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@aliwibble - After taking the picture at the bottom of Charlton Church Lane I walked along to the Rose of Denmark then into Troughton Road which had Millwall fans exiting that way. I then went back to M&S for a coffee, so don't know when the blockade of Charlton Church Lane was lifted for Charlton fans.0
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Thanks Ali I used @Off_it photo in my initial mail to Len , so he has that but I will access the 2nd one.aliwibble said:
@PragueAddick I think you can argue that while our fans weren't officially held back in the ground, the gridlock on Harvey Gardens due to sending pretty much the entire ground that way was effectively the same thing, especially for those in the West Stand - see the photo in this post from @Off_it on p20 of this thread, where fans are backed up all the way up the West Stand stairs. In addition, those fans who had schlepped all the way around to the bottom of Charlton Church Lane were held back from accessing the station by the police for some time as per this photo on p7 of the Matchday Policing Thread. @swords_alive can you remember what time they let you up to the station?PragueAddick said:Worth watching the clip of Len Duvall's exchange with Sir Mark Rowley (who declares himself a Villa fan). It starts at just before 02.48 in the video (@clive link above). It's my fault that Len leads off with the assertion that home fans were "held back" (although I wasn't the first one to mention the issue to him) and doubtless the local commander who now has to explain things to his boss, will make a great deal of that point. However, Rowley is, understandably, completely unaware of the issue, and he says, on camera, that he is surprised because his experience is "where there's separation, it's normally the other way round" (i.e. away fans kept back). That's quite a valuable admission from the Boss. Khan also confirms that it's his experience too, and he is equally unaware of a change to the normal practice. What Len doesn't say is that in all the cases he mentioned the away club is Millwall. That's understandable in that forum, but for sure that's what they will discuss behind the scenes.
Re @DOUCHER claim, I presume he is thinking of 2017. I would be very pleased if we'd be able to confirm that we were actually held back then (I wasn't there) or whether it was an earlier version of what happened this time. I am sure I've read recently that after 2017 police and Club agreed that "lessons have been learnt" (🤣) but cannot remember where I read that. Might have been the CAST website.0 -
Wasn't the route blocked off another game even before 2017? I'm thinking about 5 years previously.0
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The 1st time the police did the re routing of us was the game in March 20132
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We were held back in the ground for the one I’m thinking of - can’t confirm exactly when that was but it was the first and only time I remember it - my view is they knew we didn’t like it so sent us on a long walk instead this time but amounts to the same thingPragueAddick said:
Thanks Ali I used @Off_it photo in my initial mail to Len , so he has that but I will access the 2nd one.aliwibble said:
@PragueAddick I think you can argue that while our fans weren't officially held back in the ground, the gridlock on Harvey Gardens due to sending pretty much the entire ground that way was effectively the same thing, especially for those in the West Stand - see the photo in this post from @Off_it on p20 of this thread, where fans are backed up all the way up the West Stand stairs. In addition, those fans who had schlepped all the way around to the bottom of Charlton Church Lane were held back from accessing the station by the police for some time as per this photo on p7 of the Matchday Policing Thread. @swords_alive can you remember what time they let you up to the station?PragueAddick said:Worth watching the clip of Len Duvall's exchange with Sir Mark Rowley (who declares himself a Villa fan). It starts at just before 02.48 in the video (@clive link above). It's my fault that Len leads off with the assertion that home fans were "held back" (although I wasn't the first one to mention the issue to him) and doubtless the local commander who now has to explain things to his boss, will make a great deal of that point. However, Rowley is, understandably, completely unaware of the issue, and he says, on camera, that he is surprised because his experience is "where there's separation, it's normally the other way round" (i.e. away fans kept back). That's quite a valuable admission from the Boss. Khan also confirms that it's his experience too, and he is equally unaware of a change to the normal practice. What Len doesn't say is that in all the cases he mentioned the away club is Millwall. That's understandable in that forum, but for sure that's what they will discuss behind the scenes.
Re @DOUCHER claim, I presume he is thinking of 2017. I would be very pleased if we'd be able to confirm that we were actually held back then (I wasn't there) or whether it was an earlier version of what happened this time. I am sure I've read recently that after 2017 police and Club agreed that "lessons have been learnt" (🤣) but cannot remember where I read that. Might have been the CAST website.0 -
Was the last time we played them at home with a crowd in attendance - so as not to fall foul of any lockdown scenarios0
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Prague - if I could make a suggestion - your doing a marvellous job of getting this addressed btw but if in any way there is a cost issue here which khan seemed to allude to - a solution, - next season, Millwall fans are charged an additional price on top of their ticket price by us which goes towards policing costs within their stand - these costs include for holding them back for half hour after the game. If they have a rep that means the police don’t want to let them out at the same time, they pay. If not, we all go out at the same time, no problem.
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Not allowed under EFL rules, you'd have to charge seats in the CE Lower the same priceDOUCHER said:Prague - if I could make a suggestion - your doing a marvellous job of getting this addressed btw but if in any way there is a cost issue here which khan seemed to allude to - a solution, - next season, Millwall fans are charged an additional price on top of their ticket price by us which goes towards policing costs within their stand - these costs include for holding them back for half hour after the game. If they have a rep that means the police don’t want to let them out at the same time, they pay. If not, we all go out at the same time, no problem.0 -
Ok so here it is. February 2017. CAST extracting answers from the police. Have a read. If you were at the game, and you trust your memory, it would be useful to know what you remember. The article suggests that the problem was, the police tried to let both sets of fans out together, and then when it got a bit feisty, they held back the Charlton fans (outside the stadium) Reading the article, a couple of things strike me:
1. In 2017 the actual commander on the day was willing and able to answer CAST questions directly. iN 2025, we don't even get to know his name, some other officer who wasn't even at the match answers CAST questions. Why?
2. In the very first para, the CAST report says "In particular, the Superintendent has confirmed 'I will ensure your feedback is fed into the planning for when the two teams next play each other at the Valley'." Well that went well, didn't it?
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To be fair feedback was fed in this time wasn’t it as I interpreted from the CAST update but the police chose to go with their plan.PragueAddick said:Ok so here it is. February 2017. CAST extracting answers from the police. Have a read. If you were at the game, and you trust your memory, it would be useful to know what you remember. The article suggests that the problem was, the police tried to let both sets of fans out together, and then when it got a bit feisty, they held back the Charlton fans (outside the stadium) Reading the article, a couple of things strike me:
1. In 2017 the actual commander on the day was willing and able to answer CAST questions directly. iN 2025, we don't even get to know his name, some other officer who wasn't even at the match answers CAST questions. Why?
2. In the very first para, the CAST report says "In particular, the Superintendent has confirmed 'I will ensure your feedback is fed into the planning for when the two teams next play each other at the Valley'." Well that went well, didn't it?Not sure a gap of 7 / 8 years holds much weight either.The point remains it’s a reflection on Millwall not Charlton but very poorly executed.I’m sure the commitment this time (if any) will just be to execute it better.1 -
I mean, I may be going mad here and/or mis-remembering, but I distinctly remember on a previous occasion vs Millwall the Old Bill did exactly the same thing in stopping Charlton fans going down Floyd Road and through Ransome Walk. There was potential carnage at the level crossing, but we weren't "held back" in the ground.
I even seem to remember to "official" suggestion being that if you wanted to go to the station you needed to walk up Charlton Lane, through the village and then back down Charlton Church Lane.
The complaints about the lack of segregation in Floyd Road was another time.2 -
We were definitely held in the stadium last time we played them0
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Exactly as I said earlier this occurred in March 2013, but we seem to be ignored on this. The 2017 is different to what occurred this seasonOff_it said:I mean, I may be going mad here and/or mis-remembering, but I distinctly remember on a previous occasion vs Millwall the Old Bill did exactly the same thing in stopping Charlton fans going down Floyd Road and through Ransome Walk. There was potential carnage at the level crossing, but we weren't "held back" in the ground.
I even seem to remember to "official" suggestion being that if you wanted to go to the station you needed to walk up Charlton Lane, through the village and then back down Charlton Church Lane.
The complaints about the lack of segregation in Floyd Road was another time.4 -
I really don't think that's right. I think they said something like people could stay in their seats to let the congestion outside ease, and for the route to the station to be opened again, but if they'd kept the gates shut in the home areas I really think more of us would remember that!DOUCHER said:We were definitely held in the stadium last time we played them4 -
We definitely weren’t.DOUCHER said:We were definitely held in the stadium last time we played them6 -
Ok fair enough, maybe I assumed wrongly at the time then but I remember being in the north stand waiting along with thousands of others for quite a while - it all amounts to the same thing - held back / held in whilst they are free to leave - there may be bigger injustices in the world but this is still bollox by a lazy police force and possibly a club who don’t want to stump up for some in stadium policingCovered End said:
We definitely weren’t.DOUCHER said:We were definitely held in the stadium last time we played them1 -
There’s another issue here with match day police having absolutely no discretion to use common sense, or certainly not a desire to use it. A majority of us there were trying to leave when we went 3, then 4 nil down at there place a few years ago. As trains came and went on the platform above us, police kept us locked in and would only say that a decision had been made in the week that Charlton fans would be locked in after the game til Spanner’s had all gone. Typically, when the game eventually finished, they all just hung around on the platform not bothering to get on trains just to ensure we were kept longer.PragueAddick said:Ok so here it is. February 2017. CAST extracting answers from the police. Have a read. If you were at the game, and you trust your memory, it would be useful to know what you remember. The article suggests that the problem was, the police tried to let both sets of fans out together, and then when it got a bit feisty, they held back the Charlton fans (outside the stadium) Reading the article, a couple of things strike me:
1. In 2017 the actual commander on the day was willing and able to answer CAST questions directly. iN 2025, we don't even get to know his name, some other officer who wasn't even at the match answers CAST questions. Why?
2. In the very first para, the CAST report says "In particular, the Superintendent has confirmed 'I will ensure your feedback is fed into the planning for when the two teams next play each other at the Valley'." Well that went well, didn't it?If they had let us go, with 15/20 minutes to go, most of us would have been on our way back out of London Bridge before the game finished. I’ve mentioned it before, but the common sense thing to do in January is make South Bermondsey station Charlton only after the game. Let us use that and have them use New Cross/New Cross Gate after the game.3 -
The OB said they didn’t know where the keys were for the game.TelMc32 said:
There’s another issue here with match day police having absolutely no discretion to use common sense, or certainly not a desire to use it. A majority of us there were trying to leave when we went 3, then 4 nil down at there place a few years ago. As trains came and went on the platform above us, police kept us locked in and would only say that a decision had been made in the week that Charlton fans would be locked in after the game til Spanner’s had all gone. Typically, when the game eventually finished, they all just hung around on the platform not bothering to get on trains just to ensure we were kept longer.PragueAddick said:Ok so here it is. February 2017. CAST extracting answers from the police. Have a read. If you were at the game, and you trust your memory, it would be useful to know what you remember. The article suggests that the problem was, the police tried to let both sets of fans out together, and then when it got a bit feisty, they held back the Charlton fans (outside the stadium) Reading the article, a couple of things strike me:
1. In 2017 the actual commander on the day was willing and able to answer CAST questions directly. iN 2025, we don't even get to know his name, some other officer who wasn't even at the match answers CAST questions. Why?
2. In the very first para, the CAST report says "In particular, the Superintendent has confirmed 'I will ensure your feedback is fed into the planning for when the two teams next play each other at the Valley'." Well that went well, didn't it?If they had let us go, with 15/20 minutes to go, most of us would have been on our way back out of London Bridge before the game finished. I’ve mentioned it before, but the common sense thing to do in January is make South Bermondsey station Charlton only after the game. Let us use that and have them use New Cross/New Cross Gate after the game.As for the home game, where the OB forced everyone down past the Oak, when the barriers went down on the level crossing, a bottleneck started, the OB continued to force everyone down the road, causing problems.2 -
Do we know why we can’t charge them the same in the CE Upper tier or at least charge the upper blocks of the JSS the same as the CE Upper tier?fenaddick said:
Not allowed under EFL rules, you'd have to charge seats in the CE Lower the same priceDOUCHER said:Prague - if I could make a suggestion - your doing a marvellous job of getting this addressed btw but if in any way there is a cost issue here which khan seemed to allude to - a solution, - next season, Millwall fans are charged an additional price on top of their ticket price by us which goes towards policing costs within their stand - these costs include for holding them back for half hour after the game. If they have a rep that means the police don’t want to let them out at the same time, they pay. If not, we all go out at the same time, no problem.
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It has to be the equivalent seat and the equivalent is the CE Lower, I presume because the JS is still one tier even with the separationMartinCAFC said:
Do we know why we can’t charge them the same in the CE Upper tier or at least charge the upper blocks of the JSS the same as the CE Upper tier?fenaddick said:
Not allowed under EFL rules, you'd have to charge seats in the CE Lower the same priceDOUCHER said:Prague - if I could make a suggestion - your doing a marvellous job of getting this addressed btw but if in any way there is a cost issue here which khan seemed to allude to - a solution, - next season, Millwall fans are charged an additional price on top of their ticket price by us which goes towards policing costs within their stand - these costs include for holding them back for half hour after the game. If they have a rep that means the police don’t want to let them out at the same time, they pay. If not, we all go out at the same time, no problem.0 -
https://charltonlife.vanillacommunity.com/discussion/53900/post-millwall-arrangements-leaving-the-ground-please-read/p28
The above is the thread for the game back in March 2013 when we had exactly the same arrangements from the Met. Should never have occurred again, and the clubs comms were almost just as bad back then7 -
This is what should be shoved in their faces.JohnnyH2 said:https://charltonlife.vanillacommunity.com/discussion/53900/post-millwall-arrangements-leaving-the-ground-please-read/p28
The above is the thread for the game back in March 2013 when we had exactly the same arrangements from the Met. Should never have occurred again, and the clubs comms were almost just as bad back then
It didn’t work that time so why use it again.
Awful.4 -
Fair point I agree but you could still make a case for it being the equivalent of the CE Upper just as much as the CE Lower especially my seat in the Upper is directly opposite the upper of the JSS and technically you have to enter the upper blocks of the JSS from the back of the stand while the lower blocks from the side. Might sound like I’m nitpicking but Hull away for example there was nothing stopping you from going between the lower priced and higher priced seats.fenaddick said:
It has to be the equivalent seat and the equivalent is the CE Lower, I presume because the JS is still one tier even with the separationMartinCAFC said:
Do we know why we can’t charge them the same in the CE Upper tier or at least charge the upper blocks of the JSS the same as the CE Upper tier?fenaddick said:
Not allowed under EFL rules, you'd have to charge seats in the CE Lower the same priceDOUCHER said:Prague - if I could make a suggestion - your doing a marvellous job of getting this addressed btw but if in any way there is a cost issue here which khan seemed to allude to - a solution, - next season, Millwall fans are charged an additional price on top of their ticket price by us which goes towards policing costs within their stand - these costs include for holding them back for half hour after the game. If they have a rep that means the police don’t want to let them out at the same time, they pay. If not, we all go out at the same time, no problem.0 -
JohnnyH2 said:https://charltonlife.vanillacommunity.com/discussion/53900/post-millwall-arrangements-leaving-the-ground-please-read/p28
The above is the thread for the game back in March 2013 when we had exactly the same arrangements from the Met. Should never have occurred again, and the clubs comms were almost just as bad back then
Haha, that's quite the read!! I'd like to read more if i had a bit more time... when i accused NLA of being the rozzer's best mate. We were all just as pissed off back then as we are after this one. It's just shit really.3 -
https://forum.charltonlife.com/discussion/54685/charlton-millwall-policing-foi-response#latest
Here is the thread where @PragueAddick put in a FOI a month afterwards.0 -
https://forum.charltonlife.com/discussion/56976/millwall-game-security#latest
This is the thread in the build up to the next home game against them after the previous nonsense0 -
https://forum.charltonlife.com/discussion/57220/why-didnt-you-come#latest
And the thread after the 2nd game and people asking why the attendance was down (this can be used next season if we play them)0 -
https://forum.charltonlife.com/discussion/57549/steve-bradshaw-and-ben-kensell-at-bromley-addicks-on-30th-october#latest
This is the thread where Steve Bradshaw spoke nonsense about it after the event0 -
All this shows is we have been here before, and yet the Met, the club, and Supporter Reps act like its never occurred before5
