Attention: Please take a moment to consider our terms and conditions before posting.
Savings and Investments thread
Comments
-
I have nothing but respect for those who have grafted to get where they are. I too believe in working to live, and there being dignity in all work.
What I'm saying is that even these grafts are less available now. You don't just get a job at a market or a shift at the paper mill by walking along and asking (I got a summer job at Brewer's once by doing this but that was in 2005). Job applications are a terrible whirl of automated responses and rejection. If you still somehow secure a dogsbody job it won't earn enough to cover much of anything (my brother is ongoingly experiencing this and only stays out of trouble cos he lives with our folks aged nearly 35).
Fair play to those of you who grafted, but I would say, you had the clarity of knowing graft would help you prevail. Young people now don't know that, I'd argue3 -
Can't argue with a lot of what you are saying.Leuth said:I have nothing but respect for those who have grafted to get where they are. I too believe in working to live, and there being dignity in all work.
What I'm saying is that even these grafts are less available now. You don't just get a job at a market or a shift at the paper mill by walking along and asking (I got a summer job at Brewer's once by doing this but that was in 2005). Job applications are a terrible whirl of automated responses and rejection. If you still somehow secure a dogsbody job it won't earn enough to cover much of anything (my brother is ongoingly experiencing this and only stays out of trouble cos he lives with our folks aged nearly 35).
Fair play to those of you who grafted, but I would say, you had the clarity of knowing graft would help you prevail. Young people now don't know that, I'd argue
I have a daughter of 35 and a son who's 33 and im well aware of what it's like nowadays.
My point was that in order to get anywhere in life you have to be prepared to work for it regardless of when you were born.1 -
Agree with that. My point is its a minority who don't want to work. And that work alone is not always enough now, as demonstrated by the large numbers of people in work still in poverty orneeding state support.blackpool72 said:
Can't argue with a lot of what you are saying.Leuth said:I have nothing but respect for those who have grafted to get where they are. I too believe in working to live, and there being dignity in all work.
What I'm saying is that even these grafts are less available now. You don't just get a job at a market or a shift at the paper mill by walking along and asking (I got a summer job at Brewer's once by doing this but that was in 2005). Job applications are a terrible whirl of automated responses and rejection. If you still somehow secure a dogsbody job it won't earn enough to cover much of anything (my brother is ongoingly experiencing this and only stays out of trouble cos he lives with our folks aged nearly 35).
Fair play to those of you who grafted, but I would say, you had the clarity of knowing graft would help you prevail. Young people now don't know that, I'd argue
I have a daughter of 35 and a son who's 33 and im well aware of what it's like nowadays.
My point was that in order to get anywhere in life you have to be prepared to work for it regardless of when you were born.1 -
I think the only point we disagree on is the amount of people who don't want to work.cantersaddick said:
Agree with that. My point is its a minority who don't want to work. And that work alone is not always enough now, as demonstrated by the large numbers of people in work still in poverty orneeding state support.blackpool72 said:
Can't argue with a lot of what you are saying.Leuth said:I have nothing but respect for those who have grafted to get where they are. I too believe in working to live, and there being dignity in all work.
What I'm saying is that even these grafts are less available now. You don't just get a job at a market or a shift at the paper mill by walking along and asking (I got a summer job at Brewer's once by doing this but that was in 2005). Job applications are a terrible whirl of automated responses and rejection. If you still somehow secure a dogsbody job it won't earn enough to cover much of anything (my brother is ongoingly experiencing this and only stays out of trouble cos he lives with our folks aged nearly 35).
Fair play to those of you who grafted, but I would say, you had the clarity of knowing graft would help you prevail. Young people now don't know that, I'd argue
I have a daughter of 35 and a son who's 33 and im well aware of what it's like nowadays.
My point was that in order to get anywhere in life you have to be prepared to work for it regardless of when you were born.
You say it's a small minority, I believe it's more than that.
No way of proving one way or the other so best leave it there1 -
It’s quite obvious from this that it’s Gen Z who are the cause of all our problems! Get yourselves out there and start drinking like your parents and grandparents you bunch of slackers!!! Apparently your sobriety is costing the Revenue £1.7bn a year!!! 🚫 🍺🍺 🚫😉0
-
Leuth said:I have nothing but respect for those who have grafted to get where they are. I too believe in working to live, and there being dignity in all work.
What I'm saying is that even these grafts are less available now. You don't just get a job at a market or a shift at the paper mill by walking along and asking (I got a summer job at Brewer's once by doing this but that was in 2005). Job applications are a terrible whirl of automated responses and rejection. If you still somehow secure a dogsbody job it won't earn enough to cover much of anything (my brother is ongoingly experiencing this and only stays out of trouble cos he lives with our folks aged nearly 35).
Fair play to those of you who grafted, but I would say, you had the clarity of knowing graft would help you prevail. Young people now don't know that, I'd argue
I sent both my daughters out at 16 to try to get a Saturday job. My eldest made it the 1/4 of a mile walk to McDonalds, asked for a manager, gave her CV, had a mini interview there and then and started a week later.
my youngest, a bit more shy, I went to Bromley with her, she handed in about 25 CV’s the following week she had an interview at Waitrose and a card shop and got the job at Waitrose. At uni with her new found confidence she asked at the Uni Gym if any jobs, was pretty much employed on the spot (she went every day, but of a fitness freak) and did that for 3 years. Then upon leaving uni, before going back to do an MA wanted some practical experience, walked the 300 years to Kyn care home in Bickley, knocked on the door, handed in her CV and started 6 weeks later and worked there for a year (still does shifts when back from uni, she’s working this Christmas Day).
theres plenty of work out there……2 -
We all want a society that takes care of all but this Government are literally squeezing the life out of enterprise and businesses. The last budget NI rise cost my company £160,000 p.a. I usually employ 12 new apprentices a year, this year that number is 2 !Rob7Lee said:cantersaddick said:
I completely agree that the social contract has broken down. The other side to that social contract is low pay. the minimum wage was effectively brought in as part of that social contract to say that if you worked 40 hours a week you would be able to provide for yourself and your family and not be in poverty. Unfortunately that side of the social contract has also broken down. We now have massive and growing in work poverty. Thats a real issue and for me is the main factor in why welfare has exploded. Its not that the safety net is too high its that we have had a whole generation of wage suppression which means those in work also need the safety net. Yes there will be a minority who choose not to work but thats not because the safety net is too high but because the pay is too low (otherwise they wouldn't be in poverty).Carter said:
Its a fair chunk of both in my eyesbobmunro said:Rob7Lee said:
£1100 rentcantersaddick said:
What housing costs assumption did you use in this example? was it a single parent family or 2 parent, what ages are the children? I think some pretty unrealistic and extreme assumptions will have been needed to get these figures. E.g. I think all 5 of the kids will need to be below school age and housing costs would need to be extreme.Rob7Lee said:I saw it on Twitter and immediately called bull, I then put the info myself into a benefit checker (entitled.co.uk if anyone wants to have a go and depress themselves!)
Clearly someone had worked out what the absolute maximum you could get based on circumstance.
£4,287 in benefits (made up of UC and Child allowance and council tax help). £11k a year on minimum wage/16 hours each gives you £6,120 a month.
Someone also made the point that if you also suffer with 'anxiety' (probably from having 5 kids and so much money) you can also get a brand new car on Mobility although I'm not convinced it's that simple!!
I'll get my coat......... someone turn the lights out on the way out
Not saying its impossible but its gonna be extremely unlikely to get numbers like this.
And it was discussed on the general things that annoy you thread a couple of weeks ago but anxiety alone is not enough for motability. It Needs a few other conditions/criteria to be met alongside that to become eligible.
Dual parent (hence two x minimum wage salaries x 16 hours each per week)
All school age (5-15).
I don't know the full calculation and exactly what it is made up from as it's an online calculator as linked to above.
As I say, I'm sure this is based on an extreme, but even still there should be no circumstances really where a couple with 5 children are working 16 hours a week each on minimum wage and are getting the equivalent of north of a £100k salary.
!00% agree. The benefits system is/was designed as a safety net - and those in genuine need should be supported. What it should never be is an alternative lifestyle choice, which it is for some. That's the fault of the system, not the individuals.
Just because you can do something definitely doesn't always mean you should
Being out of work is more about lack of purpose, structure and drive. I'm not talking about high performers or over achievers. Not doing that will absolutely wallop your mental health
For my part, its the societal contract, I don't mind paying tax what I can't abide is how that money is wasted and given to people who have chosen not to take part in their end of the societal contract
https://www.health.org.uk/evidence-hub/money-and-resources/poverty/in-work-poverty-trends- 65% of children and working-age adults in poverty in 2023/24 lived in families where at least one adult was working part-time or more, up from 56% in 2012/13 and 44% in 1996/97.
- 18% of children and working-age adults in poverty in 2023/24 lived in families where all adults were working and at least one adult was working full-time (referred to here as high work intensity families), which is up from 13% in 2012/13 and 9% in 1996/97.
I don't actually think Minimum wage is the real issue. We are taxing ourselves as a country to the bottom.
Go back a few pages where a lifer talked about closing their business. Now I don't know the ins and outs of that business or the numbers involved, but a clear indication was given that the increased staff costs was a real issue (the increased Min Wage, increased NI levels, no doubt things like compulsory pension contributions also).
In my view the long and short is government expenditure is simply too high. The country cannot continue to spend what it does, it needs to spend considerably less as a %. Of course there are 101 ways that can happen and of course we need to protect the most needy/vulnerable. But unless we have a grown up conversation about that, we are on a race to the very bottom.
Taking your point on minimum wage, on a 40 hour week that will be £26,500 roughly come April. Your saying that isn't enough to live on and remain outside 'poverty' - well from that amount the government are taking £4k in tax and national insurance. Why are we taxing these people who earn the absolute bare minimum? And as we know with the freeze on tax bands and the tax free amount for about another 6 years, that will only get worse assuming minimum wage continues to increase by at least inflation. By the time we get to 2031 the bands won't have really changed for 12 years, is it any wonder the lower paid (in particular but by no means exclusively) are worse off? The tax free allowance was £11k in 2016, it's now 12,570. By simple inflation that should be £15,300 and on an increase of 3.5% per annum that should be £19,000 by 2031.
We can either make some tough decisions, or we can continue the race to the bottom, which compounds year after year. I fear if we continue as is for another few years we will be past the point of it being possible to resolve, if we aren't already there.
I've all but given up that Great Britain will resolve any of these issues in my lifetime, which is why as every day passes it's becoming more and more likely I'll retire early and leave the country and my advice to my two daughters is to do the same.
The simple fact is that the only way out of this current mess is by stimulating private sector growth which just is going to happen with the policies being adopted currently. We are literally creating a race to the bottom and we have very little time to sort it out.
Like you Im hoping to be out of the country within the next 2/3 years and are advising my kids to jump ship as well. If you look at the latest net migration figures the people leaving our shores are the youngsters who can see that they have no future here. If that carries on who is going to be paying for the NHS and State Pension ?
Politics of envy is never a good road to take !1 -
Very commendable of them, of course, but my point is that even if you get these jobs, the contract situation is usually not great, ladder prospects non-existent and the pay doesn't get you particularly far either when it comes to independent living. As I say, I have a brother who does stuff like this. The notion of him leaving our parents' is fanciful. Good luck to the both of them, of course, but as someone who's done shift work even before the cost of living ballooned, it isn't independence, it's an insecure pittanceRob7Lee said:Leuth said:I have nothing but respect for those who have grafted to get where they are. I too believe in working to live, and there being dignity in all work.
What I'm saying is that even these grafts are less available now. You don't just get a job at a market or a shift at the paper mill by walking along and asking (I got a summer job at Brewer's once by doing this but that was in 2005). Job applications are a terrible whirl of automated responses and rejection. If you still somehow secure a dogsbody job it won't earn enough to cover much of anything (my brother is ongoingly experiencing this and only stays out of trouble cos he lives with our folks aged nearly 35).
Fair play to those of you who grafted, but I would say, you had the clarity of knowing graft would help you prevail. Young people now don't know that, I'd argue
I sent both my daughters out at 16 to try to get a Saturday job. My eldest made it the 1/4 of a mile walk to McDonalds, asked for a manager, gave her CV, had a mini interview there and then and started a week later.
my youngest, a bit more shy, I went to Bromley with her, she handed in about 25 CV’s the following week she had an interview at Waitrose and a card shop and got the job at Waitrose. At uni with her new found confidence she asked at the Uni Gym if any jobs, was pretty much employed on the spot (she went every day, but of a fitness freak) and did that for 3 years. Then upon leaving uni, before going back to do an MA wanted some practical experience, walked the 300 years to Kyn care home in Bickley, knocked on the door, handed in her CV and started 6 weeks later and worked there for a year (still does shifts when back from uni, she’s working this Christmas Day).
theres plenty of work out there……1 -
I think the stats I posted yesterday about high in work poverty and it doubling in the last 2 decades is pretty damning proof tbh.blackpool72 said:
I think the only point we disagree on is the amount of people who don't want to work.cantersaddick said:
Agree with that. My point is its a minority who don't want to work. And that work alone is not always enough now, as demonstrated by the large numbers of people in work still in poverty orneeding state support.blackpool72 said:
Can't argue with a lot of what you are saying.Leuth said:I have nothing but respect for those who have grafted to get where they are. I too believe in working to live, and there being dignity in all work.
What I'm saying is that even these grafts are less available now. You don't just get a job at a market or a shift at the paper mill by walking along and asking (I got a summer job at Brewer's once by doing this but that was in 2005). Job applications are a terrible whirl of automated responses and rejection. If you still somehow secure a dogsbody job it won't earn enough to cover much of anything (my brother is ongoingly experiencing this and only stays out of trouble cos he lives with our folks aged nearly 35).
Fair play to those of you who grafted, but I would say, you had the clarity of knowing graft would help you prevail. Young people now don't know that, I'd argue
I have a daughter of 35 and a son who's 33 and im well aware of what it's like nowadays.
My point was that in order to get anywhere in life you have to be prepared to work for it regardless of when you were born.
You say it's a small minority, I believe it's more than that.
No way of proving one way or the other so best leave it there1 -
Well the best way to lower work poverty is to raise the tax threshold.cantersaddick said:
I think the stats I posted yesterday about high in work poverty and it doubling in the last 2 decades is pretty damning proof tbh.blackpool72 said:
I think the only point we disagree on is the amount of people who don't want to work.cantersaddick said:
Agree with that. My point is its a minority who don't want to work. And that work alone is not always enough now, as demonstrated by the large numbers of people in work still in poverty orneeding state support.blackpool72 said:
Can't argue with a lot of what you are saying.Leuth said:I have nothing but respect for those who have grafted to get where they are. I too believe in working to live, and there being dignity in all work.
What I'm saying is that even these grafts are less available now. You don't just get a job at a market or a shift at the paper mill by walking along and asking (I got a summer job at Brewer's once by doing this but that was in 2005). Job applications are a terrible whirl of automated responses and rejection. If you still somehow secure a dogsbody job it won't earn enough to cover much of anything (my brother is ongoingly experiencing this and only stays out of trouble cos he lives with our folks aged nearly 35).
Fair play to those of you who grafted, but I would say, you had the clarity of knowing graft would help you prevail. Young people now don't know that, I'd argue
I have a daughter of 35 and a son who's 33 and im well aware of what it's like nowadays.
My point was that in order to get anywhere in life you have to be prepared to work for it regardless of when you were born.
You say it's a small minority, I believe it's more than that.
No way of proving one way or the other so best leave it there
Unfortunately this budget has decided to keep the tax threshold for a further 3 years and increase out of work benefits instead.1 -
Sponsored links:
-
I have some younger friends who are turning up goose eggs in their search for meaningful employment. The odd short-lived barista gig is about as good as it gets. When you don't have a degree or an established career path it's pretty brutal out there. McDonald's is always an option, yes. I wouldn't say, given my brother's experiences there, that it's a particularly productive one3
-
I have my own theories on what's squeezing the life out of businesses (which is something I don't deny is happening). Let me ask you directly: noticed your competition? Being undercut and outperformed by anyone? Maybe a really really big MNC?AndyG said:
We all want a society that takes care of all but this Government are literally squeezing the life out of enterprise and businesses. The last budget NI rise cost my company £160,000 p.a. I usually employ 12 new apprentices a year, this year that number is 2 !Rob7Lee said:cantersaddick said:
I completely agree that the social contract has broken down. The other side to that social contract is low pay. the minimum wage was effectively brought in as part of that social contract to say that if you worked 40 hours a week you would be able to provide for yourself and your family and not be in poverty. Unfortunately that side of the social contract has also broken down. We now have massive and growing in work poverty. Thats a real issue and for me is the main factor in why welfare has exploded. Its not that the safety net is too high its that we have had a whole generation of wage suppression which means those in work also need the safety net. Yes there will be a minority who choose not to work but thats not because the safety net is too high but because the pay is too low (otherwise they wouldn't be in poverty).Carter said:
Its a fair chunk of both in my eyesbobmunro said:Rob7Lee said:
£1100 rentcantersaddick said:
What housing costs assumption did you use in this example? was it a single parent family or 2 parent, what ages are the children? I think some pretty unrealistic and extreme assumptions will have been needed to get these figures. E.g. I think all 5 of the kids will need to be below school age and housing costs would need to be extreme.Rob7Lee said:I saw it on Twitter and immediately called bull, I then put the info myself into a benefit checker (entitled.co.uk if anyone wants to have a go and depress themselves!)
Clearly someone had worked out what the absolute maximum you could get based on circumstance.
£4,287 in benefits (made up of UC and Child allowance and council tax help). £11k a year on minimum wage/16 hours each gives you £6,120 a month.
Someone also made the point that if you also suffer with 'anxiety' (probably from having 5 kids and so much money) you can also get a brand new car on Mobility although I'm not convinced it's that simple!!
I'll get my coat......... someone turn the lights out on the way out
Not saying its impossible but its gonna be extremely unlikely to get numbers like this.
And it was discussed on the general things that annoy you thread a couple of weeks ago but anxiety alone is not enough for motability. It Needs a few other conditions/criteria to be met alongside that to become eligible.
Dual parent (hence two x minimum wage salaries x 16 hours each per week)
All school age (5-15).
I don't know the full calculation and exactly what it is made up from as it's an online calculator as linked to above.
As I say, I'm sure this is based on an extreme, but even still there should be no circumstances really where a couple with 5 children are working 16 hours a week each on minimum wage and are getting the equivalent of north of a £100k salary.
!00% agree. The benefits system is/was designed as a safety net - and those in genuine need should be supported. What it should never be is an alternative lifestyle choice, which it is for some. That's the fault of the system, not the individuals.
Just because you can do something definitely doesn't always mean you should
Being out of work is more about lack of purpose, structure and drive. I'm not talking about high performers or over achievers. Not doing that will absolutely wallop your mental health
For my part, its the societal contract, I don't mind paying tax what I can't abide is how that money is wasted and given to people who have chosen not to take part in their end of the societal contract
https://www.health.org.uk/evidence-hub/money-and-resources/poverty/in-work-poverty-trends- 65% of children and working-age adults in poverty in 2023/24 lived in families where at least one adult was working part-time or more, up from 56% in 2012/13 and 44% in 1996/97.
- 18% of children and working-age adults in poverty in 2023/24 lived in families where all adults were working and at least one adult was working full-time (referred to here as high work intensity families), which is up from 13% in 2012/13 and 9% in 1996/97.
I don't actually think Minimum wage is the real issue. We are taxing ourselves as a country to the bottom.
Go back a few pages where a lifer talked about closing their business. Now I don't know the ins and outs of that business or the numbers involved, but a clear indication was given that the increased staff costs was a real issue (the increased Min Wage, increased NI levels, no doubt things like compulsory pension contributions also).
In my view the long and short is government expenditure is simply too high. The country cannot continue to spend what it does, it needs to spend considerably less as a %. Of course there are 101 ways that can happen and of course we need to protect the most needy/vulnerable. But unless we have a grown up conversation about that, we are on a race to the very bottom.
Taking your point on minimum wage, on a 40 hour week that will be £26,500 roughly come April. Your saying that isn't enough to live on and remain outside 'poverty' - well from that amount the government are taking £4k in tax and national insurance. Why are we taxing these people who earn the absolute bare minimum? And as we know with the freeze on tax bands and the tax free amount for about another 6 years, that will only get worse assuming minimum wage continues to increase by at least inflation. By the time we get to 2031 the bands won't have really changed for 12 years, is it any wonder the lower paid (in particular but by no means exclusively) are worse off? The tax free allowance was £11k in 2016, it's now 12,570. By simple inflation that should be £15,300 and on an increase of 3.5% per annum that should be £19,000 by 2031.
We can either make some tough decisions, or we can continue the race to the bottom, which compounds year after year. I fear if we continue as is for another few years we will be past the point of it being possible to resolve, if we aren't already there.
I've all but given up that Great Britain will resolve any of these issues in my lifetime, which is why as every day passes it's becoming more and more likely I'll retire early and leave the country and my advice to my two daughters is to do the same.
The simple fact is that the only way out of this current mess is by stimulating private sector growth which just is going to happen with the policies being adopted currently. We are literally creating a race to the bottom and we have very little time to sort it out.
Like you Im hoping to be out of the country within the next 2/3 years and are advising my kids to jump ship as well. If you look at the latest net migration figures the people leaving our shores are the youngsters who can see that they have no future here. If that carries on who is going to be paying for the NHS and State Pension ?
Politics of envy is never a good road to take !
1 -
You are 100% correct mate I certainly would not want to be starting out in life in todays world, employment prospects have changed so much. However this is not the fault of "greedy" employers ( Im not saying thats you saying that mate ) I mentioned in an earlier post that the last NI increase cost my company £160,000 p.a. where did I find that extra money from ? unfortunately I had no choice but to reduce the pay increases I had scheduled for our staff, that wasnt me being greedy that was taking action to ensure that the company could afford the increase, that additional money would have been paid to staff who would have in turn spend it raising additional tax revenues and having a better standard of living.Leuth said:
Very commendable of them, of course, but my point is that even if you get these jobs, the contract situation is usually not great, ladder prospects non-existent and the pay doesn't get you particularly far either when it comes to independent living. As I say, I have a brother who does stuff like this. The notion of him leaving our parents' is fanciful. Good luck to the both of them, of course, but as someone who's done shift work even before the cost of living ballooned, it isn't independence, it's an insecure pittanceRob7Lee said:Leuth said:I have nothing but respect for those who have grafted to get where they are. I too believe in working to live, and there being dignity in all work.
What I'm saying is that even these grafts are less available now. You don't just get a job at a market or a shift at the paper mill by walking along and asking (I got a summer job at Brewer's once by doing this but that was in 2005). Job applications are a terrible whirl of automated responses and rejection. If you still somehow secure a dogsbody job it won't earn enough to cover much of anything (my brother is ongoingly experiencing this and only stays out of trouble cos he lives with our folks aged nearly 35).
Fair play to those of you who grafted, but I would say, you had the clarity of knowing graft would help you prevail. Young people now don't know that, I'd argue
I sent both my daughters out at 16 to try to get a Saturday job. My eldest made it the 1/4 of a mile walk to McDonalds, asked for a manager, gave her CV, had a mini interview there and then and started a week later.
my youngest, a bit more shy, I went to Bromley with her, she handed in about 25 CV’s the following week she had an interview at Waitrose and a card shop and got the job at Waitrose. At uni with her new found confidence she asked at the Uni Gym if any jobs, was pretty much employed on the spot (she went every day, but of a fitness freak) and did that for 3 years. Then upon leaving uni, before going back to do an MA wanted some practical experience, walked the 300 years to Kyn care home in Bickley, knocked on the door, handed in her CV and started 6 weeks later and worked there for a year (still does shifts when back from uni, she’s working this Christmas Day).
theres plenty of work out there……
One of my sons is finishing his degree this year in York to hopefully be an Actuary he is looking like getting a 1st class degree and has been applying for jobs for when he finishes in May, so far nothing, he like others will be leaving Uni with massive debt and cannot even be sure he will be able to gain employment in his chosen field. My advice to him is to start think about joining the other youngsters who are leaving this country0 -
Fair enough and I'm not saying you're a greedy employer at all, I'm saying you as a business owner are under threat by what's happening just as a member of the zero-hour precariat is, albeit to a slightly different degree. It isn't easy for anyone who isn't high up the machinery of a seriously powerful institution.AndyG said:
You are 100% correct mate I certainly would not want to be starting out in life in todays world, employment prospects have changed so much. However this is not the fault of "greedy" employers ( Im not saying thats you saying that mate ) I mentioned in an earlier post that the last NI increase cost my company £160,000 p.a. where did I find that extra money from ? unfortunately I had no choice but to reduce the pay increases I had scheduled for our staff, that wasnt me being greedy that was taking action to ensure that the company could afford the increase, that additional money would have been paid to staff who would have in turn spend it raising additional tax revenues and having a better standard of living.Leuth said:
Very commendable of them, of course, but my point is that even if you get these jobs, the contract situation is usually not great, ladder prospects non-existent and the pay doesn't get you particularly far either when it comes to independent living. As I say, I have a brother who does stuff like this. The notion of him leaving our parents' is fanciful. Good luck to the both of them, of course, but as someone who's done shift work even before the cost of living ballooned, it isn't independence, it's an insecure pittanceRob7Lee said:Leuth said:I have nothing but respect for those who have grafted to get where they are. I too believe in working to live, and there being dignity in all work.
What I'm saying is that even these grafts are less available now. You don't just get a job at a market or a shift at the paper mill by walking along and asking (I got a summer job at Brewer's once by doing this but that was in 2005). Job applications are a terrible whirl of automated responses and rejection. If you still somehow secure a dogsbody job it won't earn enough to cover much of anything (my brother is ongoingly experiencing this and only stays out of trouble cos he lives with our folks aged nearly 35).
Fair play to those of you who grafted, but I would say, you had the clarity of knowing graft would help you prevail. Young people now don't know that, I'd argue
I sent both my daughters out at 16 to try to get a Saturday job. My eldest made it the 1/4 of a mile walk to McDonalds, asked for a manager, gave her CV, had a mini interview there and then and started a week later.
my youngest, a bit more shy, I went to Bromley with her, she handed in about 25 CV’s the following week she had an interview at Waitrose and a card shop and got the job at Waitrose. At uni with her new found confidence she asked at the Uni Gym if any jobs, was pretty much employed on the spot (she went every day, but of a fitness freak) and did that for 3 years. Then upon leaving uni, before going back to do an MA wanted some practical experience, walked the 300 years to Kyn care home in Bickley, knocked on the door, handed in her CV and started 6 weeks later and worked there for a year (still does shifts when back from uni, she’s working this Christmas Day).
theres plenty of work out there……
One of my sons is finishing his degree this year in York to hopefully be an Actuary he is looking like getting a 1st class degree and has been applying for jobs for when he finishes in May, so far nothing, he like others will be leaving Uni with massive debt and cannot even be sure he will be able to gain employment in his chosen field. My advice to him is to start think about joining the other youngsters who are leaving this country
And young people shouldn't have to leave the country. That's no solution. We should be able to clean our own house0 -
Capitalism (in most people's ideation) = you supply a product or service, make sure it's good, the market will reward you thanks to inevitable demand
Monopolism (which is what we are experiencing) = you supply a product or service. You make sure it's good. Amazon or the like undercuts you and you become a boutique service at best0 -
Personally mate Im very lucky as my business works in the Social Landlord sector and we have long term Framework agreements with our clients so we are not at risk of being undercut or out performed by competitors as we are our clients sole contractor and those contracts are closed to other companies, until obviously those Frameworks are up for renewal, then who knows ?Leuth said:
I have my own theories on what's squeezing the life out of businesses (which is something I don't deny is happening). Let me ask you directly: noticed your competition? Being undercut and outperformed by anyone? Maybe a really really big MNC?AndyG said:
We all want a society that takes care of all but this Government are literally squeezing the life out of enterprise and businesses. The last budget NI rise cost my company £160,000 p.a. I usually employ 12 new apprentices a year, this year that number is 2 !Rob7Lee said:cantersaddick said:
I completely agree that the social contract has broken down. The other side to that social contract is low pay. the minimum wage was effectively brought in as part of that social contract to say that if you worked 40 hours a week you would be able to provide for yourself and your family and not be in poverty. Unfortunately that side of the social contract has also broken down. We now have massive and growing in work poverty. Thats a real issue and for me is the main factor in why welfare has exploded. Its not that the safety net is too high its that we have had a whole generation of wage suppression which means those in work also need the safety net. Yes there will be a minority who choose not to work but thats not because the safety net is too high but because the pay is too low (otherwise they wouldn't be in poverty).Carter said:
Its a fair chunk of both in my eyesbobmunro said:Rob7Lee said:
£1100 rentcantersaddick said:
What housing costs assumption did you use in this example? was it a single parent family or 2 parent, what ages are the children? I think some pretty unrealistic and extreme assumptions will have been needed to get these figures. E.g. I think all 5 of the kids will need to be below school age and housing costs would need to be extreme.Rob7Lee said:I saw it on Twitter and immediately called bull, I then put the info myself into a benefit checker (entitled.co.uk if anyone wants to have a go and depress themselves!)
Clearly someone had worked out what the absolute maximum you could get based on circumstance.
£4,287 in benefits (made up of UC and Child allowance and council tax help). £11k a year on minimum wage/16 hours each gives you £6,120 a month.
Someone also made the point that if you also suffer with 'anxiety' (probably from having 5 kids and so much money) you can also get a brand new car on Mobility although I'm not convinced it's that simple!!
I'll get my coat......... someone turn the lights out on the way out
Not saying its impossible but its gonna be extremely unlikely to get numbers like this.
And it was discussed on the general things that annoy you thread a couple of weeks ago but anxiety alone is not enough for motability. It Needs a few other conditions/criteria to be met alongside that to become eligible.
Dual parent (hence two x minimum wage salaries x 16 hours each per week)
All school age (5-15).
I don't know the full calculation and exactly what it is made up from as it's an online calculator as linked to above.
As I say, I'm sure this is based on an extreme, but even still there should be no circumstances really where a couple with 5 children are working 16 hours a week each on minimum wage and are getting the equivalent of north of a £100k salary.
!00% agree. The benefits system is/was designed as a safety net - and those in genuine need should be supported. What it should never be is an alternative lifestyle choice, which it is for some. That's the fault of the system, not the individuals.
Just because you can do something definitely doesn't always mean you should
Being out of work is more about lack of purpose, structure and drive. I'm not talking about high performers or over achievers. Not doing that will absolutely wallop your mental health
For my part, its the societal contract, I don't mind paying tax what I can't abide is how that money is wasted and given to people who have chosen not to take part in their end of the societal contract
https://www.health.org.uk/evidence-hub/money-and-resources/poverty/in-work-poverty-trends- 65% of children and working-age adults in poverty in 2023/24 lived in families where at least one adult was working part-time or more, up from 56% in 2012/13 and 44% in 1996/97.
- 18% of children and working-age adults in poverty in 2023/24 lived in families where all adults were working and at least one adult was working full-time (referred to here as high work intensity families), which is up from 13% in 2012/13 and 9% in 1996/97.
I don't actually think Minimum wage is the real issue. We are taxing ourselves as a country to the bottom.
Go back a few pages where a lifer talked about closing their business. Now I don't know the ins and outs of that business or the numbers involved, but a clear indication was given that the increased staff costs was a real issue (the increased Min Wage, increased NI levels, no doubt things like compulsory pension contributions also).
In my view the long and short is government expenditure is simply too high. The country cannot continue to spend what it does, it needs to spend considerably less as a %. Of course there are 101 ways that can happen and of course we need to protect the most needy/vulnerable. But unless we have a grown up conversation about that, we are on a race to the very bottom.
Taking your point on minimum wage, on a 40 hour week that will be £26,500 roughly come April. Your saying that isn't enough to live on and remain outside 'poverty' - well from that amount the government are taking £4k in tax and national insurance. Why are we taxing these people who earn the absolute bare minimum? And as we know with the freeze on tax bands and the tax free amount for about another 6 years, that will only get worse assuming minimum wage continues to increase by at least inflation. By the time we get to 2031 the bands won't have really changed for 12 years, is it any wonder the lower paid (in particular but by no means exclusively) are worse off? The tax free allowance was £11k in 2016, it's now 12,570. By simple inflation that should be £15,300 and on an increase of 3.5% per annum that should be £19,000 by 2031.
We can either make some tough decisions, or we can continue the race to the bottom, which compounds year after year. I fear if we continue as is for another few years we will be past the point of it being possible to resolve, if we aren't already there.
I've all but given up that Great Britain will resolve any of these issues in my lifetime, which is why as every day passes it's becoming more and more likely I'll retire early and leave the country and my advice to my two daughters is to do the same.
The simple fact is that the only way out of this current mess is by stimulating private sector growth which just is going to happen with the policies being adopted currently. We are literally creating a race to the bottom and we have very little time to sort it out.
Like you Im hoping to be out of the country within the next 2/3 years and are advising my kids to jump ship as well. If you look at the latest net migration figures the people leaving our shores are the youngsters who can see that they have no future here. If that carries on who is going to be paying for the NHS and State Pension ?
Politics of envy is never a good road to take !
I was speaking more in general re business, there is very little to encourage investment or to stimulate growth in the private sector, ourselves and other companies I deal with are thinking very carefully before commiting to additional recruitment or investment into the future as we just have no confidence to do so.
It is a simple principle that all the things we want as a society is paid for by the private sector. No growth equals less public services1 -
As I say, follow the money, follow the assets, follow the land ownership. I don't disagree that our financial system is founded upon the private sector, but I am saying that the private sector has been holed below the waterline by what was previously a broadly fair market becoming profoundly and increasingly unfair, with lack of regulation of giant corporations contributing squarely to this lack of confidence. The game is riggedAndyG said:
Personally mate Im very lucky as my business works in the Social Landlord sector and we have long term Framework agreements with our clients so we are not at risk of being undercut or out performed by competitors as we are our clients sole contractor and those contracts are closed to other companies, until obviously those Frameworks are up for renewal, then who knows ?Leuth said:
I have my own theories on what's squeezing the life out of businesses (which is something I don't deny is happening). Let me ask you directly: noticed your competition? Being undercut and outperformed by anyone? Maybe a really really big MNC?AndyG said:
We all want a society that takes care of all but this Government are literally squeezing the life out of enterprise and businesses. The last budget NI rise cost my company £160,000 p.a. I usually employ 12 new apprentices a year, this year that number is 2 !Rob7Lee said:cantersaddick said:
I completely agree that the social contract has broken down. The other side to that social contract is low pay. the minimum wage was effectively brought in as part of that social contract to say that if you worked 40 hours a week you would be able to provide for yourself and your family and not be in poverty. Unfortunately that side of the social contract has also broken down. We now have massive and growing in work poverty. Thats a real issue and for me is the main factor in why welfare has exploded. Its not that the safety net is too high its that we have had a whole generation of wage suppression which means those in work also need the safety net. Yes there will be a minority who choose not to work but thats not because the safety net is too high but because the pay is too low (otherwise they wouldn't be in poverty).Carter said:
Its a fair chunk of both in my eyesbobmunro said:Rob7Lee said:
£1100 rentcantersaddick said:
What housing costs assumption did you use in this example? was it a single parent family or 2 parent, what ages are the children? I think some pretty unrealistic and extreme assumptions will have been needed to get these figures. E.g. I think all 5 of the kids will need to be below school age and housing costs would need to be extreme.Rob7Lee said:I saw it on Twitter and immediately called bull, I then put the info myself into a benefit checker (entitled.co.uk if anyone wants to have a go and depress themselves!)
Clearly someone had worked out what the absolute maximum you could get based on circumstance.
£4,287 in benefits (made up of UC and Child allowance and council tax help). £11k a year on minimum wage/16 hours each gives you £6,120 a month.
Someone also made the point that if you also suffer with 'anxiety' (probably from having 5 kids and so much money) you can also get a brand new car on Mobility although I'm not convinced it's that simple!!
I'll get my coat......... someone turn the lights out on the way out
Not saying its impossible but its gonna be extremely unlikely to get numbers like this.
And it was discussed on the general things that annoy you thread a couple of weeks ago but anxiety alone is not enough for motability. It Needs a few other conditions/criteria to be met alongside that to become eligible.
Dual parent (hence two x minimum wage salaries x 16 hours each per week)
All school age (5-15).
I don't know the full calculation and exactly what it is made up from as it's an online calculator as linked to above.
As I say, I'm sure this is based on an extreme, but even still there should be no circumstances really where a couple with 5 children are working 16 hours a week each on minimum wage and are getting the equivalent of north of a £100k salary.
!00% agree. The benefits system is/was designed as a safety net - and those in genuine need should be supported. What it should never be is an alternative lifestyle choice, which it is for some. That's the fault of the system, not the individuals.
Just because you can do something definitely doesn't always mean you should
Being out of work is more about lack of purpose, structure and drive. I'm not talking about high performers or over achievers. Not doing that will absolutely wallop your mental health
For my part, its the societal contract, I don't mind paying tax what I can't abide is how that money is wasted and given to people who have chosen not to take part in their end of the societal contract
https://www.health.org.uk/evidence-hub/money-and-resources/poverty/in-work-poverty-trends- 65% of children and working-age adults in poverty in 2023/24 lived in families where at least one adult was working part-time or more, up from 56% in 2012/13 and 44% in 1996/97.
- 18% of children and working-age adults in poverty in 2023/24 lived in families where all adults were working and at least one adult was working full-time (referred to here as high work intensity families), which is up from 13% in 2012/13 and 9% in 1996/97.
I don't actually think Minimum wage is the real issue. We are taxing ourselves as a country to the bottom.
Go back a few pages where a lifer talked about closing their business. Now I don't know the ins and outs of that business or the numbers involved, but a clear indication was given that the increased staff costs was a real issue (the increased Min Wage, increased NI levels, no doubt things like compulsory pension contributions also).
In my view the long and short is government expenditure is simply too high. The country cannot continue to spend what it does, it needs to spend considerably less as a %. Of course there are 101 ways that can happen and of course we need to protect the most needy/vulnerable. But unless we have a grown up conversation about that, we are on a race to the very bottom.
Taking your point on minimum wage, on a 40 hour week that will be £26,500 roughly come April. Your saying that isn't enough to live on and remain outside 'poverty' - well from that amount the government are taking £4k in tax and national insurance. Why are we taxing these people who earn the absolute bare minimum? And as we know with the freeze on tax bands and the tax free amount for about another 6 years, that will only get worse assuming minimum wage continues to increase by at least inflation. By the time we get to 2031 the bands won't have really changed for 12 years, is it any wonder the lower paid (in particular but by no means exclusively) are worse off? The tax free allowance was £11k in 2016, it's now 12,570. By simple inflation that should be £15,300 and on an increase of 3.5% per annum that should be £19,000 by 2031.
We can either make some tough decisions, or we can continue the race to the bottom, which compounds year after year. I fear if we continue as is for another few years we will be past the point of it being possible to resolve, if we aren't already there.
I've all but given up that Great Britain will resolve any of these issues in my lifetime, which is why as every day passes it's becoming more and more likely I'll retire early and leave the country and my advice to my two daughters is to do the same.
The simple fact is that the only way out of this current mess is by stimulating private sector growth which just is going to happen with the policies being adopted currently. We are literally creating a race to the bottom and we have very little time to sort it out.
Like you Im hoping to be out of the country within the next 2/3 years and are advising my kids to jump ship as well. If you look at the latest net migration figures the people leaving our shores are the youngsters who can see that they have no future here. If that carries on who is going to be paying for the NHS and State Pension ?
Politics of envy is never a good road to take !
I was speaking more in general re business, there is very little to encourage investment or to stimulate growth in the private sector, ourselves and other companies I deal with are thinking very carefully before commiting to additional recruitment or investment into the future as we just have no confidence to do so.
It is a simple principle that all the things we want as a society is paid for by the private sector. No growth equals less public services0 -
Charlton have American zillionaire owners. But the game is rigged. We may not be able to survive as a Championship club, because the other clubs also have American zillionaire owners - richer ones. English football along with the rest of society has optimised - it's now a plaything of the American world-owner class, an artificially-inflated procession of garish Yank triumph that you'd have to be fucking insane to take on0
-
Mate I don’t disagree with you there one bit. Football in its current form is unsustainable and there will come a time when a massive re balance will have to happen. Let’s just hope we are one of the clubs left standingLeuth said:Charlton have American zillionaire owners. But the game is rigged. We may not be able to survive as a Championship club, because the other clubs also have American zillionaire owners - richer ones. English football along with the rest of society has optimised - it's now a plaything of the American world-owner class, an artificially-inflated procession of garish Yank triumph that you'd have to be fucking insane to take on1 -
Dont know how long ago you are talking about but its totally different today. I have 2 sons who have been looking for full time work over the past 12-18 months and it's very tough.Rob7Lee said:Leuth said:I have nothing but respect for those who have grafted to get where they are. I too believe in working to live, and there being dignity in all work.
What I'm saying is that even these grafts are less available now. You don't just get a job at a market or a shift at the paper mill by walking along and asking (I got a summer job at Brewer's once by doing this but that was in 2005). Job applications are a terrible whirl of automated responses and rejection. If you still somehow secure a dogsbody job it won't earn enough to cover much of anything (my brother is ongoingly experiencing this and only stays out of trouble cos he lives with our folks aged nearly 35).
Fair play to those of you who grafted, but I would say, you had the clarity of knowing graft would help you prevail. Young people now don't know that, I'd argue
I sent both my daughters out at 16 to try to get a Saturday job. My eldest made it the 1/4 of a mile walk to McDonalds, asked for a manager, gave her CV, had a mini interview there and then and started a week later.
my youngest, a bit more shy, I went to Bromley with her, she handed in about 25 CV’s the following week she had an interview at Waitrose and a card shop and got the job at Waitrose. At uni with her new found confidence she asked at the Uni Gym if any jobs, was pretty much employed on the spot (she went every day, but of a fitness freak) and did that for 3 years. Then upon leaving uni, before going back to do an MA wanted some practical experience, walked the 300 years to Kyn care home in Bickley, knocked on the door, handed in her CV and started 6 weeks later and worked there for a year (still does shifts when back from uni, she’s working this Christmas Day).
theres plenty of work out there……
You dont hand out CV's anymore, employers just dont take them. It's all done online. My youngest has been filling out his applications since College ended in May. Various interviews going nowhere. The Kings Trust got involved as he is on UC (unemployment benefit) and they set him up with TK Max. Interview at their Tooting office & gave him a 3 week trial at their Bromley store. Spent the 3 weeks mainly lugging boxes from store room to shop floor & at the end if the 3 weeks.....no job. Didnt get paid at all. Slave labour. He just yesterday started at the local Wetherspoons in the kitchen. Initially a 16 hour contract (2 days) although most likely 24 hours/3 days. 4pm-midnight. Just above minimum wage.
0 -
Sponsored links:
-
Again we agree. Our world is becoming increasingly corrupt and I truly wish we had just a few leaders who can be trusted to make the right decisions for the right reasons but that isn’t the world we live in mate unfortunatelyLeuth said:
As I say, follow the money, follow the assets, follow the land ownership. I don't disagree that our financial system is founded upon the private sector, but I am saying that the private sector has been holed below the waterline by what was previously a broadly fair market becoming profoundly and increasingly unfair, with lack of regulation of giant corporations contributing squarely to this lack of confidence. The game is riggedAndyG said:
Personally mate Im very lucky as my business works in the Social Landlord sector and we have long term Framework agreements with our clients so we are not at risk of being undercut or out performed by competitors as we are our clients sole contractor and those contracts are closed to other companies, until obviously those Frameworks are up for renewal, then who knows ?Leuth said:
I have my own theories on what's squeezing the life out of businesses (which is something I don't deny is happening). Let me ask you directly: noticed your competition? Being undercut and outperformed by anyone? Maybe a really really big MNC?AndyG said:
We all want a society that takes care of all but this Government are literally squeezing the life out of enterprise and businesses. The last budget NI rise cost my company £160,000 p.a. I usually employ 12 new apprentices a year, this year that number is 2 !Rob7Lee said:cantersaddick said:
I completely agree that the social contract has broken down. The other side to that social contract is low pay. the minimum wage was effectively brought in as part of that social contract to say that if you worked 40 hours a week you would be able to provide for yourself and your family and not be in poverty. Unfortunately that side of the social contract has also broken down. We now have massive and growing in work poverty. Thats a real issue and for me is the main factor in why welfare has exploded. Its not that the safety net is too high its that we have had a whole generation of wage suppression which means those in work also need the safety net. Yes there will be a minority who choose not to work but thats not because the safety net is too high but because the pay is too low (otherwise they wouldn't be in poverty).Carter said:
Its a fair chunk of both in my eyesbobmunro said:Rob7Lee said:
£1100 rentcantersaddick said:
What housing costs assumption did you use in this example? was it a single parent family or 2 parent, what ages are the children? I think some pretty unrealistic and extreme assumptions will have been needed to get these figures. E.g. I think all 5 of the kids will need to be below school age and housing costs would need to be extreme.Rob7Lee said:I saw it on Twitter and immediately called bull, I then put the info myself into a benefit checker (entitled.co.uk if anyone wants to have a go and depress themselves!)
Clearly someone had worked out what the absolute maximum you could get based on circumstance.
£4,287 in benefits (made up of UC and Child allowance and council tax help). £11k a year on minimum wage/16 hours each gives you £6,120 a month.
Someone also made the point that if you also suffer with 'anxiety' (probably from having 5 kids and so much money) you can also get a brand new car on Mobility although I'm not convinced it's that simple!!
I'll get my coat......... someone turn the lights out on the way out
Not saying its impossible but its gonna be extremely unlikely to get numbers like this.
And it was discussed on the general things that annoy you thread a couple of weeks ago but anxiety alone is not enough for motability. It Needs a few other conditions/criteria to be met alongside that to become eligible.
Dual parent (hence two x minimum wage salaries x 16 hours each per week)
All school age (5-15).
I don't know the full calculation and exactly what it is made up from as it's an online calculator as linked to above.
As I say, I'm sure this is based on an extreme, but even still there should be no circumstances really where a couple with 5 children are working 16 hours a week each on minimum wage and are getting the equivalent of north of a £100k salary.
!00% agree. The benefits system is/was designed as a safety net - and those in genuine need should be supported. What it should never be is an alternative lifestyle choice, which it is for some. That's the fault of the system, not the individuals.
Just because you can do something definitely doesn't always mean you should
Being out of work is more about lack of purpose, structure and drive. I'm not talking about high performers or over achievers. Not doing that will absolutely wallop your mental health
For my part, its the societal contract, I don't mind paying tax what I can't abide is how that money is wasted and given to people who have chosen not to take part in their end of the societal contract
https://www.health.org.uk/evidence-hub/money-and-resources/poverty/in-work-poverty-trends- 65% of children and working-age adults in poverty in 2023/24 lived in families where at least one adult was working part-time or more, up from 56% in 2012/13 and 44% in 1996/97.
- 18% of children and working-age adults in poverty in 2023/24 lived in families where all adults were working and at least one adult was working full-time (referred to here as high work intensity families), which is up from 13% in 2012/13 and 9% in 1996/97.
I don't actually think Minimum wage is the real issue. We are taxing ourselves as a country to the bottom.
Go back a few pages where a lifer talked about closing their business. Now I don't know the ins and outs of that business or the numbers involved, but a clear indication was given that the increased staff costs was a real issue (the increased Min Wage, increased NI levels, no doubt things like compulsory pension contributions also).
In my view the long and short is government expenditure is simply too high. The country cannot continue to spend what it does, it needs to spend considerably less as a %. Of course there are 101 ways that can happen and of course we need to protect the most needy/vulnerable. But unless we have a grown up conversation about that, we are on a race to the very bottom.
Taking your point on minimum wage, on a 40 hour week that will be £26,500 roughly come April. Your saying that isn't enough to live on and remain outside 'poverty' - well from that amount the government are taking £4k in tax and national insurance. Why are we taxing these people who earn the absolute bare minimum? And as we know with the freeze on tax bands and the tax free amount for about another 6 years, that will only get worse assuming minimum wage continues to increase by at least inflation. By the time we get to 2031 the bands won't have really changed for 12 years, is it any wonder the lower paid (in particular but by no means exclusively) are worse off? The tax free allowance was £11k in 2016, it's now 12,570. By simple inflation that should be £15,300 and on an increase of 3.5% per annum that should be £19,000 by 2031.
We can either make some tough decisions, or we can continue the race to the bottom, which compounds year after year. I fear if we continue as is for another few years we will be past the point of it being possible to resolve, if we aren't already there.
I've all but given up that Great Britain will resolve any of these issues in my lifetime, which is why as every day passes it's becoming more and more likely I'll retire early and leave the country and my advice to my two daughters is to do the same.
The simple fact is that the only way out of this current mess is by stimulating private sector growth which just is going to happen with the policies being adopted currently. We are literally creating a race to the bottom and we have very little time to sort it out.
Like you Im hoping to be out of the country within the next 2/3 years and are advising my kids to jump ship as well. If you look at the latest net migration figures the people leaving our shores are the youngsters who can see that they have no future here. If that carries on who is going to be paying for the NHS and State Pension ?
Politics of envy is never a good road to take !
I was speaking more in general re business, there is very little to encourage investment or to stimulate growth in the private sector, ourselves and other companies I deal with are thinking very carefully before commiting to additional recruitment or investment into the future as we just have no confidence to do so.
It is a simple principle that all the things we want as a society is paid for by the private sector. No growth equals less public services0 -
bobmunro said:cantersaddick said:
Did it cost significantly more than rent/mortgage "back in the day"? Were both parents expected to work full time just to avoid being I'm poverty "back in the day"?bobmunro said:cantersaddick said:
Yeah you don't actually get 30 hours. You get a voucher for what the government deems should be enough to pay for 30 hours. The reality is if you go to even a middle of the road nursery you have to top that up significantly.shine166 said:
30 hours PW if you earn under 100k but that doesn't cover food or outings (the park/forrest school). Bang average nurserys are £70 per day where I am without the extras.Rob7Lee said:
I think what people are saying (and I'm very much generalising here) is don't ask me to pay for your decisions, i.e. whether thats someone being lazy and not working as you mention, someone having children etc etc.cantersaddick said:
I don't think that is what people were alluding to. Most of the comments on here have been around people being lazy and no working at all. Not a family working as much as they can with childcare. And in the situation I described I dont see how having less support would help the situation. Bit I can see how either higher pay or cheaper childcare would help.Rob7Lee said:
Is that not something many are alluding to. In your example a couple decide to have a baby, can't then afford the childcare so one goes part time/gives up work, the state then has to step in and help financially. In my view thats not what the welfare system was designed for, at least not to the level it is.cantersaddick said:
With children below school age unless you have family help around you sometimes one parent working full time or both part time is all they can manage. If you're on minimum wage the cost of childcare is prohibitive to working beyond that.ForestHillAddick said:
Agree with that, but from your stats 82% of households in poverty have only one adult in full time work or two adults in part time work at most.cantersaddick said:
Where we are talking about children (in the context of the 2 child limit) we have to remember that childcare is a factor. Unless we are going to make breakfast clubs, after school clubs and pre school aged childcare free (I'm in favour) we cant expect both parents to be working full time. The cost of childcare currently is prohibitive to that.ForestHillAddick said:
Well to me those stats read that the vast majority (82%) of households living in poverty are under underemployed.cantersaddick said:
Not sure that really changes the story from how I read them. Still pretty stark. 35% is ridiculously low and goes against the narrative that its a majority of people who are lazy and not working. If it was all about work vs lazy then that number would be massively higher. One parent working part time to manage childcare arrangements should not be something that pushes a family into poverty.ForestHillAddick said:
Just to play devil's advocate a bit on these DWP stats. Surely the same stats presented in a different way lead to a different implication. If I were to say:cantersaddick said:
I completely agree that the social contract has broken down. The other side to that social contract is low pay. the minimum wage was effectively brought in as part of that social contract to say that if you worked 40 hours a week you would be able to provide for yourself and your family and not be in poverty. Unfortunately that side of the social contract has also broken down. We now have massive and growing in work poverty. Thats a real issue and for me is the main factor in why welfare has exploded. Its not that the safety net is too high its that we have had a whole generation of wage suppression which means those in work also need the safety net. Yes there will be a minority who choose not to work but thats not because the safety net is too high but because the pay is too low (otherwise they wouldn't be in poverty).Carter said:
Its a fair chunk of both in my eyesbobmunro said:Rob7Lee said:
£1100 rentcantersaddick said:
What housing costs assumption did you use in this example? was it a single parent family or 2 parent, what ages are the children? I think some pretty unrealistic and extreme assumptions will have been needed to get these figures. E.g. I think all 5 of the kids will need to be below school age and housing costs would need to be extreme.Rob7Lee said:I saw it on Twitter and immediately called bull, I then put the info myself into a benefit checker (entitled.co.uk if anyone wants to have a go and depress themselves!)
Clearly someone had worked out what the absolute maximum you could get based on circumstance.
£4,287 in benefits (made up of UC and Child allowance and council tax help). £11k a year on minimum wage/16 hours each gives you £6,120 a month.
Someone also made the point that if you also suffer with 'anxiety' (probably from having 5 kids and so much money) you can also get a brand new car on Mobility although I'm not convinced it's that simple!!
I'll get my coat......... someone turn the lights out on the way out
Not saying its impossible but its gonna be extremely unlikely to get numbers like this.
And it was discussed on the general things that annoy you thread a couple of weeks ago but anxiety alone is not enough for motability. It Needs a few other conditions/criteria to be met alongside that to become eligible.
Dual parent (hence two x minimum wage salaries x 16 hours each per week)
All school age (5-15).
I don't know the full calculation and exactly what it is made up from as it's an online calculator as linked to above.
As I say, I'm sure this is based on an extreme, but even still there should be no circumstances really where a couple with 5 children are working 16 hours a week each on minimum wage and are getting the equivalent of north of a £100k salary.
!00% agree. The benefits system is/was designed as a safety net - and those in genuine need should be supported. What it should never be is an alternative lifestyle choice, which it is for some. That's the fault of the system, not the individuals.
Just because you can do something definitely doesn't always mean you should
Being out of work is more about lack of purpose, structure and drive. I'm not talking about high performers or over achievers. Not doing that will absolutely wallop your mental health
For my part, its the societal contract, I don't mind paying tax what I can't abide is how that money is wasted and given to people who have chosen not to take part in their end of the societal contract
https://www.health.org.uk/evidence-hub/money-and-resources/poverty/in-work-poverty-trends- 65% of children and working-age adults in poverty in 2023/24 lived in families where at least one adult was working part-time or more, up from 56% in 2012/13 and 44% in 1996/97.
- 18% of children and working-age adults in poverty in 2023/24 lived in families where all adults were working and at least one adult was working full-time (referred to here as high work intensity families), which is up from 13% in 2012/13 and 9% in 1996/97.
35% of children and working age adults living in poverty live in families with no working adult
82% of children and working aged adults living in poverty lived in families where either one adult was working full time with remaining adult(s) not working, OR no adults are in full time work
Then the exact same stats would support the other side of the argument no?
I suppose it's all a matter of perspective then I guess.
To me that would suggest that either one adult could take up part time work again or one adult could move from part time to full time, which would still leave one adult in each household part time to help with childcare.
I think the safety net was designed for those 18% (admittedly, plus a good few more for whom circumstance has changed for the worse).
I agree for some they are likely under employed but it's just not as black and white as people make out. And that's before we even get to thinks like zero hour contracts and insecure working meaning a large number of people dip in and out of needing support.
We also in the main seem to have lost that overarching drive/desire to graft to earn more, my parents/in laws was collecting the pools in the evening, driving as a wedding chauffeur etc all on top of the day job, my mum when she gave up the day job initially did cleaning in the evenings in offices when my dad got in. In my day it was a few evenings in the week in bars, doing weddings at weekends, sometimes overtime at the weekend etc. A lot of my mates dads did cabbing in the evenings and weekends. My mum was a dinner lady at one point and a lot of the other ladies also did the night shift in Sainsburys re-stocking shelves. People found ways to make more to try and make ends meet....... probably because there was no state alternative. I can't honestly remember the last person I knew to do anything like that.
On your second paragraph. I don't think that's gone anywhere. Hustle culture is a massive thing. It's just moved online now. My wife (despite earning more than me) has an etsy business that pays for our phones, internet and subscriptions. I have a little side hustle selling woodwork online that I pick up as and when (selling a lot of mini wooden Christmas trees right now). Lots of our friends have something. My sister in law has a legal background so did loads of online proof reading while on maternity leave. There have been multiple threads on here about side hustles. It definitely still exists just is less visible. It's all over social media targetted at young people.
Equally I still think we should strive for a world where people don't need second jobs to survive.
isnt there already 30 hours free childcare a week for lower earners? Plus 15 for everyone at a certain age?
The side hustle you refer to, may be present (and I know a few of my daughters friends who do solely that, so less side, more hustle), but I don’t see it in certain circles, unless we can start to get people out of needing benefits, the cost is only going one way and it’s already unsustainable at its current levels.
maybe it’s just me, but the last 20 years has been a race to the bottom, we seem to be continuing on that path and it’s getting worse not better. Unless someone gets a grip on things, we’re heading for an even more unpleasant time.
instead we tinker with Cash ISA’s and tax on savings 🙈
Luckily I have 2 side hustle, my Art and buying selling trading cards/pokemon or even a 30k gig wouldn't be enough to do more than the basics
And if you work full time you've got to cover another probably 20 hours a week to cover you 10 additional working hours plus commute to and from the nursery for pick up and drop off. And if your trains are delayed so you're late picking them up you get a fine.
Fuck me - we had to cover all of it back in the day. Everybody wants jam on it as well.When we bought our first house my net pay was swallowed up by the mortgage and we lived on my wife's pay. When we started a family we decided that it would be better for our children for my wife to stay home while I went to work during the day. I would get home from work at around 7pm and my wife and I passed like ships in the night as she went off to do the night shift five nights x 8 hours per week stacking shelves in Tescos. She would get home around six in the morning just in time for me to leave for work. Total amount of benefit from the state, child care paid for etc...? The square root of fuck all.Back in the day.
Interested to know, if you were starting in the equivalent role pay wise today as you had when you bought your first house, whether you would be able to buy that same house today.
Your story sounds like my parents one, they bought their house in 1976. He would not have been able to afford the same house from about 1990 onwards. Someone starting out in his profession now would be lucky to afford a flat0 -
Send me a PM, believe our graduate programme is still open (for start next September) and we have a stream :AndyG said:
You are 100% correct mate I certainly would not want to be starting out in life in todays world, employment prospects have changed so much. However this is not the fault of "greedy" employers ( Im not saying thats you saying that mate ) I mentioned in an earlier post that the last NI increase cost my company £160,000 p.a. where did I find that extra money from ? unfortunately I had no choice but to reduce the pay increases I had scheduled for our staff, that wasnt me being greedy that was taking action to ensure that the company could afford the increase, that additional money would have been paid to staff who would have in turn spend it raising additional tax revenues and having a better standard of living.Leuth said:
Very commendable of them, of course, but my point is that even if you get these jobs, the contract situation is usually not great, ladder prospects non-existent and the pay doesn't get you particularly far either when it comes to independent living. As I say, I have a brother who does stuff like this. The notion of him leaving our parents' is fanciful. Good luck to the both of them, of course, but as someone who's done shift work even before the cost of living ballooned, it isn't independence, it's an insecure pittanceRob7Lee said:Leuth said:I have nothing but respect for those who have grafted to get where they are. I too believe in working to live, and there being dignity in all work.
What I'm saying is that even these grafts are less available now. You don't just get a job at a market or a shift at the paper mill by walking along and asking (I got a summer job at Brewer's once by doing this but that was in 2005). Job applications are a terrible whirl of automated responses and rejection. If you still somehow secure a dogsbody job it won't earn enough to cover much of anything (my brother is ongoingly experiencing this and only stays out of trouble cos he lives with our folks aged nearly 35).
Fair play to those of you who grafted, but I would say, you had the clarity of knowing graft would help you prevail. Young people now don't know that, I'd argue
I sent both my daughters out at 16 to try to get a Saturday job. My eldest made it the 1/4 of a mile walk to McDonalds, asked for a manager, gave her CV, had a mini interview there and then and started a week later.
my youngest, a bit more shy, I went to Bromley with her, she handed in about 25 CV’s the following week she had an interview at Waitrose and a card shop and got the job at Waitrose. At uni with her new found confidence she asked at the Uni Gym if any jobs, was pretty much employed on the spot (she went every day, but of a fitness freak) and did that for 3 years. Then upon leaving uni, before going back to do an MA wanted some practical experience, walked the 300 years to Kyn care home in Bickley, knocked on the door, handed in her CV and started 6 weeks later and worked there for a year (still does shifts when back from uni, she’s working this Christmas Day).
theres plenty of work out there……
One of my sons is finishing his degree this year in York to hopefully be an Actuary he is looking like getting a 1st class degree and has been applying for jobs for when he finishes in May, so far nothing, he like others will be leaving Uni with massive debt and cannot even be sure he will be able to gain employment in his chosen field. My advice to him is to start think about joining the other youngsters who are leaving this country
Insurance Actuarial Consulting & Reinsurance Analytics Graduate Programme
0
