After the Millwall game - club reply to CAST p34, further CAST response p45

ElfsborgAddick said:

TootingRedArmy said:

It was very sensible to hold the Chelsea fans back, as per earlier post. 
Surely in future high risk matches, the stadium announcer at around 85-90 mins informs away fans they are being held back and its also put on the big screen. Fans can decide to wait in the road or stay in their seats with toilets etc.  Or just tell them in advance with clear instructions that no fans will be allowed out of the ground once they have entered, till home fans have left and expect 30mins delay.....simple surely? 
I have zero sympathy for Chelsea, Millwall or other clubs with hooligan fans being held back they have caused chaos for decades and if they are inconvencied so be it.
I hope MET Police and our club sort out communication with away fans for all future high risk matches, so our supporters are free to leave safety and without any disrupt, exactly as it should be. 

You think this was a high risk match, why?

TootingRedArmy said:

ElfsborgAddick said:

TootingRedArmy said:

ElfsborgAddick said:

TootingRedArmy said:

It was very sensible to hold the Chelsea fans back, as per earlier post. 
Surely in future high risk matches, the stadium announcer at around 85-90 mins informs away fans they are being held back and its also put on the big screen. Fans can decide to wait in the road or stay in their seats with toilets etc.  Or just tell them in advance with clear instructions that no fans will be allowed out of the ground once they have entered, till home fans have left and expect 30mins delay.....simple surely? 
I have zero sympathy for Chelsea, Millwall or other clubs with hooligan fans being held back they have caused chaos for decades and if they are inconvencied so be it.
I hope MET Police and our club sort out communication with away fans for all future high risk matches, so our supporters are free to leave safety and without any disrupt, exactly as it should be. 

You think this was a high risk match, why?

Why? Chelsea have a large hooligan element like Millwall, Leeds etc. 
Evidenced before the match down Floyd rd & police teams going in to stop them kicking off.
(one of my sons mates is a Met policeman who arrived very late & saw it & polices football games) 
i've seen Chelsea Headhunters in action, both at Valley and The Bridge to know they can't be trusted to behave. A Sat 8pm after a day of alcohol with Chelsea is of course a high risk match. I was very pleased after the match to see the road blocked with vans and large contingent of police and policehorses and get away without having to see any Chelsea fans. Likewise i'm more than happy to wait 30+ mins after the Millwall away to get the train back to London Bridge. 
It is what it is some clubs are still stuck in the dark ages and their so called fans can't be trusted to behave. 

Do you think Birmingham, Leicester and Portsmouth are high risk?

I think Chelsea & Millwall are on another level to those three! I'm not going to put them into a hooligan premier league, of who has the worse hooligans, Bushwackers, Headhunters, Zulus, Baby Squad etc.
Charlton station being the main transport point for home and away fans & of course Floyd Rd are the two places for obvious trouble so letting home fans disperse makes perfect sense 
moving fwd the Met and club need to give advance warning of arrangements post match, as should Millwall for what the arrangements are for our fixture on Jan 24th at the Den.

cafc999 said:

Has any of the MET or club confirmed that we will be held back after Millwall like normal? Maybe @castrust could enquire?

shirty5 said:

ElfsborgAddick said:

TootingRedArmy said:

ElfsborgAddick said:

TootingRedArmy said:

ElfsborgAddick said:

TootingRedArmy said:

It was very sensible to hold the Chelsea fans back, as per earlier post. 
Surely in future high risk matches, the stadium announcer at around 85-90 mins informs away fans they are being held back and its also put on the big screen. Fans can decide to wait in the road or stay in their seats with toilets etc.  Or just tell them in advance with clear instructions that no fans will be allowed out of the ground once they have entered, till home fans have left and expect 30mins delay.....simple surely? 
I have zero sympathy for Chelsea, Millwall or other clubs with hooligan fans being held back they have caused chaos for decades and if they are inconvencied so be it.
I hope MET Police and our club sort out communication with away fans for all future high risk matches, so our supporters are free to leave safety and without any disrupt, exactly as it should be. 

You think this was a high risk match, why?

Why? Chelsea have a large hooligan element like Millwall, Leeds etc. 
Evidenced before the match down Floyd rd & police teams going in to stop them kicking off.
(one of my sons mates is a Met policeman who arrived very late & saw it & polices football games) 
i've seen Chelsea Headhunters in action, both at Valley and The Bridge to know they can't be trusted to behave. A Sat 8pm after a day of alcohol with Chelsea is of course a high risk match. I was very pleased after the match to see the road blocked with vans and large contingent of police and policehorses and get away without having to see any Chelsea fans. Likewise i'm more than happy to wait 30+ mins after the Millwall away to get the train back to London Bridge. 
It is what it is some clubs are still stuck in the dark ages and their so called fans can't be trusted to behave. 

Do you think Birmingham, Leicester and Portsmouth are high risk?

I think Chelsea & Millwall are on another level to those three! I'm not going to put them into a hooligan premier league, of who has the worse hooligans, Bushwackers, Headhunters, Zulus, Baby Squad etc.
Charlton station being the main transport point for home and away fans & of course Floyd Rd are the two places for obvious trouble so letting home fans disperse makes perfect sense 
moving fwd the Met and club need to give advance warning of arrangements post match, as should Millwall for what the arrangements are for our fixture on Jan 24th at the Den.

Each time we played Chelsea in the Premier League there were no problems leaving the ground together.

Then my educated guess would be something untoward went on before kick off, for the Police to take the action they did. 

Was that communicated to those travelling supporters? If not then you can understand their anger and frustration of being penned in like that. 

TootingRedArmy said:

shirty5 said:

ElfsborgAddick said:

TootingRedArmy said:

ElfsborgAddick said:

TootingRedArmy said:

ElfsborgAddick said:

TootingRedArmy said:

It was very sensible to hold the Chelsea fans back, as per earlier post. 
Surely in future high risk matches, the stadium announcer at around 85-90 mins informs away fans they are being held back and its also put on the big screen. Fans can decide to wait in the road or stay in their seats with toilets etc.  Or just tell them in advance with clear instructions that no fans will be allowed out of the ground once they have entered, till home fans have left and expect 30mins delay.....simple surely? 
I have zero sympathy for Chelsea, Millwall or other clubs with hooligan fans being held back they have caused chaos for decades and if they are inconvencied so be it.
I hope MET Police and our club sort out communication with away fans for all future high risk matches, so our supporters are free to leave safety and without any disrupt, exactly as it should be. 

You think this was a high risk match, why?

Why? Chelsea have a large hooligan element like Millwall, Leeds etc. 
Evidenced before the match down Floyd rd & police teams going in to stop them kicking off.
(one of my sons mates is a Met policeman who arrived very late & saw it & polices football games) 
i've seen Chelsea Headhunters in action, both at Valley and The Bridge to know they can't be trusted to behave. A Sat 8pm after a day of alcohol with Chelsea is of course a high risk match. I was very pleased after the match to see the road blocked with vans and large contingent of police and policehorses and get away without having to see any Chelsea fans. Likewise i'm more than happy to wait 30+ mins after the Millwall away to get the train back to London Bridge. 
It is what it is some clubs are still stuck in the dark ages and their so called fans can't be trusted to behave. 

Do you think Birmingham, Leicester and Portsmouth are high risk?

I think Chelsea & Millwall are on another level to those three! I'm not going to put them into a hooligan premier league, of who has the worse hooligans, Bushwackers, Headhunters, Zulus, Baby Squad etc.
Charlton station being the main transport point for home and away fans & of course Floyd Rd are the two places for obvious trouble so letting home fans disperse makes perfect sense 
moving fwd the Met and club need to give advance warning of arrangements post match, as should Millwall for what the arrangements are for our fixture on Jan 24th at the Den.

Each time we played Chelsea in the Premier League there were no problems leaving the ground together.

Then my educated guess would be something untoward went on before kick off, for the Police to take the action they did. 

Was that communicated to those travelling supporters? If not then you can understand their anger and frustration of being penned in like that. 

As per earlier post one of my sons mates is a Met policeman and saw police snatch squads going in to stop groups of Chelsea fans causing trouble down Floyd rd just before the match. Maybe there were other more serious incidents with Chelsea hooligans.

Does anyone know if Jimmy Seed PA announced to Chelsea fans that they were being held back?  A policeman with a megaphone  was shouting it clearly when i walked pass the policevans with the large group of MET blocking the road. I imagine for seasoned Chelsea fans being kept behind happens regularly and seems very sensible policing to avoid potential trouble & allow Charlton fans to leave peacefully. 

Does anyone know caused several hundred Chelsea fans to enter JS via pitch before the ground? 

PragueAddick said:

TootingRedArmy said:

shirty5 said:

ElfsborgAddick said:

TootingRedArmy said:

ElfsborgAddick said:

TootingRedArmy said:

ElfsborgAddick said:

TootingRedArmy said:

It was very sensible to hold the Chelsea fans back, as per earlier post. 
Surely in future high risk matches, the stadium announcer at around 85-90 mins informs away fans they are being held back and its also put on the big screen. Fans can decide to wait in the road or stay in their seats with toilets etc.  Or just tell them in advance with clear instructions that no fans will be allowed out of the ground once they have entered, till home fans have left and expect 30mins delay.....simple surely? 
I have zero sympathy for Chelsea, Millwall or other clubs with hooligan fans being held back they have caused chaos for decades and if they are inconvencied so be it.
I hope MET Police and our club sort out communication with away fans for all future high risk matches, so our supporters are free to leave safety and without any disrupt, exactly as it should be. 

You think this was a high risk match, why?

Why? Chelsea have a large hooligan element like Millwall, Leeds etc. 
Evidenced before the match down Floyd rd & police teams going in to stop them kicking off.
(one of my sons mates is a Met policeman who arrived very late & saw it & polices football games) 
i've seen Chelsea Headhunters in action, both at Valley and The Bridge to know they can't be trusted to behave. A Sat 8pm after a day of alcohol with Chelsea is of course a high risk match. I was very pleased after the match to see the road blocked with vans and large contingent of police and policehorses and get away without having to see any Chelsea fans. Likewise i'm more than happy to wait 30+ mins after the Millwall away to get the train back to London Bridge. 
It is what it is some clubs are still stuck in the dark ages and their so called fans can't be trusted to behave. 

Do you think Birmingham, Leicester and Portsmouth are high risk?

I think Chelsea & Millwall are on another level to those three! I'm not going to put them into a hooligan premier league, of who has the worse hooligans, Bushwackers, Headhunters, Zulus, Baby Squad etc.
Charlton station being the main transport point for home and away fans & of course Floyd Rd are the two places for obvious trouble so letting home fans disperse makes perfect sense 
moving fwd the Met and club need to give advance warning of arrangements post match, as should Millwall for what the arrangements are for our fixture on Jan 24th at the Den.

Each time we played Chelsea in the Premier League there were no problems leaving the ground together.

Then my educated guess would be something untoward went on before kick off, for the Police to take the action they did. 

Was that communicated to those travelling supporters? If not then you can understand their anger and frustration of being penned in like that. 

As per earlier post one of my sons mates is a Met policeman and saw police snatch squads going in to stop groups of Chelsea fans causing trouble down Floyd rd just before the match. Maybe there were other more serious incidents with Chelsea hooligans.

Does anyone know if Jimmy Seed PA announced to Chelsea fans that they were being held back?  A policeman with a megaphone  was shouting it clearly when i walked pass the policevans with the large group of MET blocking the road. I imagine for seasoned Chelsea fans being kept behind happens regularly and seems very sensible policing to avoid potential trouble & allow Charlton fans to leave peacefully. 

Does anyone know caused several hundred Chelsea fans to enter JS via pitch before the ground? 

I had a friendly chat with a long serving member of Chelsea Supporters Trust board, whom I know from the Olympic Stadium campaign. Old-skool fan, very much there when they were shit. He says that

- they had no prior warning of any planned hold-back
- he heard no advice at all from plod outside the ground when they were kettled (his words). He certainly didn't hear the megaphone you mention, he wondered why one was apparently not being used at the very least.
- He says (confirming some remarks from Lifers pre-game) that the Chelsea fan base has completely changed in the last 30 years. "of course" he says "we've still got some herberts, like every fan base". 
- he goes to most away games, (he prefers them to home games because he hates the corporate atmosphere at the Bridge) and says they have never been held back anywhere recently. Not at Fulham, and more strikingly not at Leeds. Both sets of fans mingling easily on the way out. 
- He says he had heard of some incident in or near the station before the game but heard that it was nothing more than verbals among herberts.
- he witnessed the mounted police at close quarters, and found it both baffling and disturbing.
- he said he spoke to the police on duty outside the station; they had been drafted in from elsewhere and were unable to help people navigate the area because they had no clue themselves (not all wanted to take the train, including him, though he knows the area anyway).

He therefore had the unfortunate impression that the general problem is "with Charlton". That was before I told him the full background to  the Millwall game, including previous years where they held us back. Then he wondered about the police with riot gear (which he said they did not actually activate) and what happened to the days when police around the two clubs pooled information, because from his POV the idea that any Chelsea came looking for serious trouble is laughable. 

He is involved with their effort to get answers with the police and mentioned that they are co-operating on this with CAST - which is very good news. The Met won't find it so easy to dismiss two coherent and determined Trusts with the same story, which is, essentially , last minute changes by the police to normal egress arrangements, giving the clubs no time to adequately inform fans. (or in this case inform them at all).

Greenhithe said:

I’ve had an idea. 

When the game finishes over there. Why don’t we ALL stay put in our seats. Don’t play their silly games of waiting and being kettled. In fact I’d love it if we all took a book to read and put our feet up. It would be hilarious. 

Imagine plod all stood there with literally no one coming down. I’d love it. 

Markg2004 said:

Baldybonce said:

Markg2004 said:

So what can we take from tonight and Met Police operation? Did they learn from Millwall?

Clearly they must've told the club all egress routes after the game would be open, the club communicated that before the match. Only for them to close the gates down Valley Grove keeping Chelsea back.

Charlton staff i spoke to didnt know the police were going to close those gates as I tried to get out there.

It is like they are making it up at times. Why do this for Chelsea and not Millwall then?

Police using their initiative?
Did you see the Chelsea mob brought in via the pitch?

That was odd, the entrance via pitch side. Fans were jumping the fencing to get into the Jimmy Seed. There was also a ruckus and a fan kicked out before reaching the stand. You'd imagine there were allowed in as it was orderly on the most part, bar the struggle to get into the stand and the lone aggressor.

PragueAddick said:

So is this a fair summary?: 

- Chelsea were “held back” but outside the stadium
- they had no prior warning this would happen, so they have the hump (understandably, I’d say)
- but we were allowed to exit normally

I wasn’t there so it would be good to get some more comments, to ensure that whatever I say to Len Duvall about this reflects a consensus of views from those who were there.

From my perspective that is pretty spot on. We were told via one of the official club videos that egression from the stadium post match would be as per normal league games. To me in the West Stand it is via the gates into Valley Grove that come out next to the Away support and up towards the station. 

I went down the stairs and towards those gates as that is my normal route. Other fans were trying to do the same. I even walked past 3 or 4 stewards who did nothing to stop me or say it was closed off. I got to the end and then was told it is closed. I asked why and the lady in green hi-vis said 'we don't know why, i work for the club and we were told it was going to be open". Whilst not verbatim, it was a don't blame us, I wanted to go that way too vibe from her.

I exited via Floyd Road instead and where the fans join up on the way to the station there was a row of police, vans etc, kitted up too stopping Chelsea leaving. CAFC fans were shouting "why didn't you do this for Millwall" etc and some were pulled to aside and spoken too. 

Whilst holding Chelsea back helped us get away quicker, we were told all normal routes open which they were not, and it seems Chelsea didn't expect to be held either.