New formation / shape needed?

Redhenry · February 19

After the recent unconvincing performances and seeing Fevrier and Coady signing, I was thinking how can we improve and be more of an attacking threat

Maybe a 433?

Kaminski

Clarke/Ramsay Jones Bell Chambers

Docherty Coady/Coventry Rankin- Costello

Fevrier Dykes/Leaburn Campbell

Thoughts…

WSS · February 19

We already do but I just don't think we have the quality/discipline to not get absolutely dominated in midfield.

NabySarr · February 19

Not this again! We don’t have the defenders to play a back 4. Jones is one of the best defenders in the league when he’s in the middle of a back 3 so why change it? Neither Bell or Ramsay is a back 4 centre back. We also don’t have the strikers to play a 1 up top, they are all much better in a 2 than a 1. We’ve recruited for a back 3 and a front 2

Our squad is so built for 3-5-2 that it is by far our best starting formation. We’ve now got decent options at wing back, back 3 is the way to go. If we’re chasing a game then we can switch to 4-2-3-1 like we did on Tuesday

Also there is no way Carey shouldn’t be playing, he’s our goal threat

NabySarr · February 19

Also recent unconvincing performances? We’ve lost 1 game, before that it was 3 clean sheets and 7 points

Redhenry · February 19

NabySarr said:

Not this again! We don’t have the defenders to play a back 4. Jones is one of the best defenders in the league when he’s in the middle of a back 3 so why change it? Neither Bell or Ramsay is a back 4 centre back. We also don’t have the strikers to play a 1 up top, they are all much better in a 2 than a 1. We’ve recruited for a back 3 and a front 2

Our squad is so built for 3-5-2 that it is by far our best starting formation. We’ve now got decent options at wing back, back 3 is the way to go. If we’re chasing a game then we can switch to 4-2-3-1 like we did on Tuesday

Also there is no way Carey shouldn’t be playing, he’s our goal threat

We have an extra defender in midfield atm. Trying to gauge others thoughts, if u don't like it why post? Strange

Redhenry · February 19

NabySarr said:

Also recent unconvincing performances? We’ve lost 1 game, before that it was 3 clean sheets and 7 points

Maybe we are watching different games, we aren't scoring goals and should be trying something different occasionally to get us over the line IMHO

NabySarr · February 19

Redhenry said:

NabySarr said:

Not this again! We don’t have the defenders to play a back 4. Jones is one of the best defenders in the league when he’s in the middle of a back 3 so why change it? Neither Bell or Ramsay is a back 4 centre back. We also don’t have the strikers to play a 1 up top, they are all much better in a 2 than a 1. We’ve recruited for a back 3 and a front 2

Our squad is so built for 3-5-2 that it is by far our best starting formation. We’ve now got decent options at wing back, back 3 is the way to go. If we’re chasing a game then we can switch to 4-2-3-1 like we did on Tuesday

Also there is no way Carey shouldn’t be playing, he’s our goal threat

We have an extra defender in midfield atm. Trying to gauge others thoughts, if u don't like it why post? Strange

You asked for thoughts? If you didn’t want any then why ask?

I think if we played the above lineup we’d be a lot worse than we are now for the reasons I mentioned. Making us defensively weaker by playing with 2 centre backs when ours all suit a back 3, and making our strikers play up top on their own when they all suit a 2.

The positive trade off is you get Fevrier and TC on the wings. I don’t think either is anywhere near good enough for that trade off to be worth it and make us a better team by changing shape. They aren’t going to consistently score or assist goals at this level. We’d concede many more goals but I don’t think we’d score that many more

We’ve spent 2 years building a squad for 3-5-2 so it’s no surprise that our squad fits that setup far better than anything else

Bedsaddick · February 19

Too late to be messing around with the shape . Next season id like to see up play with the diamond formation as Bowyer did . It means we can actually use wingers which we’ve desperately lacked with the current formation.

NabySarr · February 19

Bedsaddick said:

Too late to be messing around with the shape . Next season id like to see up play with the diamond formation as Bowyer did . It means we can actually use wingers which we’ve desperately lacked with the current formation.

The diamond formation bowyer used has no wingers and plays with even less width than we do now

We should be sticking to 3-5-2. Improve our wing back options so that we have 2 good options on either side. If we do that and overhaul the midfield then we will be going in the right direction next season

Redhenry · February 19

NabySarr said:

Redhenry said:

NabySarr said:

Not this again! We don’t have the defenders to play a back 4. Jones is one of the best defenders in the league when he’s in the middle of a back 3 so why change it? Neither Bell or Ramsay is a back 4 centre back. We also don’t have the strikers to play a 1 up top, they are all much better in a 2 than a 1. We’ve recruited for a back 3 and a front 2

Our squad is so built for 3-5-2 that it is by far our best starting formation. We’ve now got decent options at wing back, back 3 is the way to go. If we’re chasing a game then we can switch to 4-2-3-1 like we did on Tuesday

Also there is no way Carey shouldn’t be playing, he’s our goal threat

We have an extra defender in midfield atm. Trying to gauge others thoughts, if u don't like it why post? Strange

You asked for thoughts? If you didn’t want any then why ask?

I think if we played the above lineup we’d be a lot worse than we are now for the reasons I mentioned. Making us defensively weaker by playing with 2 centre backs when ours all suit a back 3, and making our strikers play up top on their own when they all suit a 2.
The positive trade off is you get Fevrier and TC on the wings. I don’t think either is anywhere near good enough for that trade off to be worth it and make us a better team by changing shape. They aren’t going to consistently score or assist goals at this level. We’d concede many more goals but I don’t think we’d score that many more

We’ve spent 2 years building a squad for 3-5-2 so it’s no surprise that our squad fits that setup far better than anything else

I refer to this- Not this again!

Redhenry · February 19

Currently the centre of midfield is weak

blackpool72 · February 19

Our midfield needs a complete overhaul in the summer.
Sheff Wed aside we probably have the worst midfield in the championship.
Jones won't change the system at this stage of the season anyway.
Just hope we stay up and change personel in the summer.

CodeRed · February 19

I don’t think we need to change formation, I do think it’s as simple as getting in midfielders who have an ounce of quality about them and can read the game well.

Doc, Coventry and even Carey are not playmakers. Carey is a good goalscorer but can’t be described as a proper 10 as he does not have the passing capabilities. Doc is a workhorse but let’s be real he doesn’t possess the qualities for the champ and Coventry does well defensively but is not able to pick out a good cutting edge forward pass.

When you have three midfielders who can’t pick out a goal creating pass and don’t carry the ball out then you are putting too much pressure on the wingbacks to do all of the creativeness. Grind games out, stay up and then overhaul that midfield. Jones needs to put his loyalties to the side and start making some courageous decisions for next season if we want to be competitive.

None of our midfield would be a starter for any other champ team, if we had someone like Adams from pompey who can carry a ball, be physical and control a game, we would look much better.

Redhenry · February 19

There must be a better way to get the best out of our players. The constant long ball tactic in the first half against Pompey was too predictable and boring

covered_end_junior · February 19

I wouldn't change the shape personally, we're out the relegation zone and in a position 99% of fans would have taken if offered it at the start of the season.

What I would look to do in the summer (assuming we stay up) is bring in some players more comfortable in possession, particularly in midfield.) But I've felt we needed to do that since January last year and we haven't so I'm not expecting us to do it. I think that's the next step in how we try to evolve and become a better all round side.

Jones very much seems to prioritise positioning and discipline out of possession over quality in possession (Doc being the best example) but in fairness it's worked for him so I can't complain. But that's where I think we can improve.

swords_alive · February 19

Members only please @admin? We can't be having our competitors reading these notes.

ForeverAddickted · February 19

Portsmouth was the exception in recent weeks, lets not start pretending its the norm to how we've been playing.

Both games against QPR and Stoke should have seen us out of sight by Half-Time thanks to the chances we created those days... the ball was either falling annoyingly to the wrong person in the box (which carried over into the start of the Pompey game, with Clarke's miss), or the Goalkeeper / Defence was putting in a stellar performance; the QPR game is a brilliant source of frustration, given how well Walsh / Cook played against us that day, now go and look at the goals they f**king well conceded against Blackburn, with one of them being a blatant free header.

For some reason we just didn't click against Pompey... it happens, they are human and not robots... Yet to say we solely play hoofball is a bit of an insult as well, given the move that we created, and Carey wasted on Tuesday night... Its become a bit of a lazy tag in the last few days. Maybe scewed because of the route one goal vs. Stoke.

The biggest problem on Tuesday was Pompey worked out how to suffocate us... It doesn't happen every week

Chris_from_Sidcup · February 19

There is no chance at all that Jones is changing formation after two years where we're on track to achieve the seasons aim and stay up.

If he wants to experiment with a new formation then he decides in the summer and implements it from day one of pre-season. He definitely doesn't do it now with Championship survival on the line.

swords_alive · February 19

We definitely need to address the issue exposed on Tuesday and in previous games where our wing-backs are nullified. Since losing Edwards we have had the problem and not until Clarke and Chambers recent addition have we shown promise of resolving it to play effective 3-5-2. Then Pompey show up and nullify it so effectively. So the problem evolves and so must the solution.

As @CodeRedsays above, the problem in midfield is revealed; "When you have three midfielders who can’t pick out a goal creating pass and don’t carry the ball out then you are putting too much pressure on the wingbacks to do all of the creativeness."

So what stops the return of JRC with Fullah at times alongside others, depending on the opposition, and could tactics be adapted accordingly?

I am all on board for this analysis as i think it is evidently a serious weakness with NJ and his coaching staff- even if i claim to have no tactical nous myself.

CodeRed · February 19

Redhenry said:

There must be a better way to get the best out of our players. The constant long ball tactic in the first half against Pompey was too predictable and boring

I honestly think it’s because we are so static, if you watch us closely we don’t tend to move to find spaces so when the defence don’t see a good option they result to go long as they don’t want to hold the ball for long.

Only problem with that is we don’t tend to win the second balls as the pompey game showed us. So it just comes straight back, I do believe our midfield is what restricts us.

mendonca · February 19

I wouldn’t change the shape now, but when we didn’t have wingbacks I always felt we should’ve used Bree at LB, like we did in his final game. He wasn’t great, but I felt we could’ve ground out an extra point or two.

4‑2‑3‑1 made more sense at the time, because it would’ve let us use TC, Apter, Fullah and Onel to press from higher up rather than sticking them in fullback roles.

Mistakes from those players in defensive positions have cost us points. There’s no guarantee it wouldn’t have happened in a different shape, but at the time it all felt a bit too stubborn.

NabySarr · February 19

swords_alive said:

We definitely need to address the issue exposed on Tuesday and in previous games where our wing-backs are nullified. Since losing Edwards we have had the problem and not until Clarke and Chambers recent addition have we shown promise of resolving it to play effective 3-5-2. Then Pompey show up and nullify it so effectively. So the problem evolves and so must the solution.

As @CodeRedsays above, the problem in midfield is revealed; "When you have three midfielders who can’t pick out a goal creating pass and don’t carry the ball out then you are putting too much pressure on the wingbacks to do all of the creativeness."

So what stops the return of JRC with Fullah at times alongside others, depending on the opposition, and could tactics be adapted accordingly?

I am all on board for this analysis as i think it is evidently a serious weakness with NJ and his coaching staff- even if i claim to have no tactical nous myself.

Out of possession they aren’t trusted to do their jobs so they don’t get picked. If they did we’d be worse off defensively. Costello doesn’t cover enough ground, Fullah is still very young so won’t know where to be

When we struggle to create like Tuesday, we don’t try and pass through teams and break them down. We instead go more and more direct, fans will moan about this when it doesn’t work like on Tuesday, but the truth is over the last 2 years it has worked quite a lot and we’ve got a lot of late goals from it

We all know we need to overhaul the midfield with better footballers. The problem is that a midfielder that does all that Jones wants without the ball, but is also good on the ball, is not a realistic signing for a league 1 team or a newly promoted championship team. If we stay up, we will hopefully then be able to attract this level of player in the summer and then we can start to play better football. But signing those kind of players is not easy to do and it’s not cheap either

Sword65pf · February 19

I wonder if we miss out on the profile of midfielder that a lot of us are talking about due to NJ’s style of play?, if so how do we evolve?, will NJ himself evolve? I think when bringing up what he’s done for us is fine and deserved, however that was a style and philosophy that for want of better words, got away with due to the quality in league 1, we are already seeing mixed results in the championship, obviously hampered by integral injuries, but that’s not been the case all season for example the Pompey game, we were arguably full strength. Nathan has been great, but I think if he stays stubborn with the way he is doing things it may not end well.

carly burn · February 19

It always boggles my mind when we say we can't play a player there because they can't play in that position.

I get it if you're asking and attacking left winger to play centre half. But come on. These are paid professionals!
They should be adaptable and competent at any adaptation within reason.
if it's the case that they can't then they are simply not good enough.

Todds_right_hook · February 19

Redhenry said:

After the recent unconvincing performances and seeing Fevrier and Coady signing, I was thinking how can we improve and be more of an attacking threat
Maybe a 433?
Kaminski
Clarke/Ramsay Jones Bell Chambers
Docherty Coady/Coventry Rankin- Costello
Fevrier Dykes/Leaburn Campbell
Thoughts…

I don’t need we need a formation change, we need flexibility to adapt to game situations and to allow players to play their natural games

using Campbell as an example, he played outside in a 4–2-3-1/4-4-2 second half on Tuesday and didn’t get a kick.

We need to mix it up as we are too easy to play against and very predictable

NabySarr · February 19

Sword65pf said:

I wonder if we miss out on the profile of midfielder that a lot of us are talking about due to NJ’s style of play?, if so how do we evolve?, will NJ himself evolve? I think when bringing up what he’s done for us is fine and deserved, however that was a style and philosophy that for want of better words, got away with due to the quality in league 1, we are already seeing mixed results in the championship, obviously hampered by integral injuries, but that’s not been the case all season for example the Pompey game, we were arguably full strength. Nathan has been great, but I think if he stays stubborn with the way he is doing things it may not end well.

Mixed results? We are outperforming our budget, that’s pretty good results to me. This season has so far been a huge success and a different style would have most likely seen worse results

I’m not sure why so many are writing off Jones being able to improve us season after season at this level. Look at the evidence from his career, he did exactly that with Luton so why is he now too stubborn to do it here?

Redhenry · February 19

ForeverAddickted said:

Portsmouth was the exception in recent weeks, lets not start pretending its the norm to how we've been playing.
Both games against QPR and Stoke should have seen us out of sight by Half-Time thanks to the chances we created those days... the ball was either falling annoyingly to the wrong person in the box (which carried over into the start of the Pompey game, with Clarke's miss), or the Goalkeeper / Defence was putting in a stellar performance; the QPR game is a brilliant source of frustration, given how well Walsh / Cook played against us that day, now go and look at the goals they f**king well conceded against Blackburn, with one of them being a blatant free header.
For some reason we just didn't click against Pompey... it happens, they are human and not robots... Yet to say we solely play hoofball is a bit of an insult as well, given the move that we created, and Carey wasted on Tuesday night... Its become a bit of a lazy tag in the last few days. Maybe scewed because of the route one goal vs. Stoke.
The biggest problem on Tuesday was Pompey worked out how to suffocate us... It doesn't happen every week

If, buts and maybes. Four points from a possible nine from three home games and I quote Cawley, we have not netted more than once at home since October 18

Redhenry · February 19

Todds_right_hook said:

Redhenry said:

After the recent unconvincing performances and seeing Fevrier and Coady signing, I was thinking how can we improve and be more of an attacking threat
Maybe a 433?
Kaminski
Clarke/Ramsay Jones Bell Chambers
Docherty Coady/Coventry Rankin- Costello
Fevrier Dykes/Leaburn Campbell
Thoughts…

I don’t need we need a formation change, we need flexibility to adapt to game situations and to allow players to play their natural games

using Campbell as an example, he played outside in a 4–2-3-1/4-4-2 second half on Tuesday and didn’t get a kick.

We need to mix it up as we are too easy to play against and very predictable

I agree @ToddS_right_hook

NabySarr · February 19

Redhenry said:

ForeverAddickted said:

Portsmouth was the exception in recent weeks, lets not start pretending its the norm to how we've been playing.
Both games against QPR and Stoke should have seen us out of sight by Half-Time thanks to the chances we created those days... the ball was either falling annoyingly to the wrong person in the box (which carried over into the start of the Pompey game, with Clarke's miss), or the Goalkeeper / Defence was putting in a stellar performance; the QPR game is a brilliant source of frustration, given how well Walsh / Cook played against us that day, now go and look at the goals they f**king well conceded against Blackburn, with one of them being a blatant free header.
For some reason we just didn't click against Pompey... it happens, they are human and not robots... Yet to say we solely play hoofball is a bit of an insult as well, given the move that we created, and Carey wasted on Tuesday night... Its become a bit of a lazy tag in the last few days. Maybe scewed because of the route one goal vs. Stoke.
The biggest problem on Tuesday was Pompey worked out how to suffocate us... It doesn't happen every week

If, buts and maybes. Four points from a possible nine from three home games and I quote Cawley, we have not netted more than once at home since October 18

1.3 points per game at home is pretty much what you’d expect from a side at the lower end of the table. It’s hardly an unacceptable outcome that warrants scrapping the setup and starting all over again

Scoham · February 19

Mixed results is strange way to look at it - if we were more consistent we’d be comfortable in mid table or higher.

With our bottom 3 budget we’re doing as well as we could have realistically hoped.

With the way we play, we should grind out enough narrow wins and some draws to stay up.

If we tried to play attractive or more attacking football I do think we’d be lower in the table.

Whether we stay up or go down I do want to see us improve the midfield. JRC I assume hasn’t done enough on the defensive side to get a regular place. Fullah understandably isn’t trusted at his age, though I do want to see either come off the bench at least over Berry.

With us widening our scouting I hope we can find an all round midfielder or two who offer the defensive stuff while improving us on the ball. Kelman and Godden can both finish if they get the service, there’s more to come from Leaburn, and Dykes looks solid at this level in a way Olaofe didn’t. You always want to sign a better striker if you can, but the midfield is where we can really improve this team, if we do that the strikers may have more end product than they’ve shown so far this season.

Crispywood · February 19

1) We have 2 wingers, 1 who has been abused for zero end product and 1 who a L1 team didn’t think was good enough.
2) We only have Jones and Sichenje who can play in a 4 (Burke always injured) and even then Jones has proved he’s better in a 3 and we have no clue if Sichenje is ready.

I don’t get why people’s automatic response when we’re struggling is change formation and suddenly we go 10 unbeaten. If you have a bottom 3 budget and a poorer squad at this level you’re going to struggle regardless. So just do whatever you can to get results which Jones is doing.

New formation / shape needed?

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