West Brom Face Potential Points Deduction

cabbles · April 15

Fumbluff said:

cabbles said:

As per bob’s comments, just punish them in line with the breach of the rules. We can’t have future implications being structured into it. Where does it end

Wasn’t that Paul Miller, the other mulleted one but the one without the belly (at the time)

Yes, I’m getting late 80s Lennie Lawrence signings confused

Briston_Addick · April 15

golfaddick said:

bobmunro said:

Chris_from_Sidcup said:

Let's assume the verdict is given in the week before the final game and they're deducted -2. West Brom then appeal and the last games are played. The season ends with:

West Brom 50 points
-------------------
Oxford 49 points
Leicester 47 points

I just can't see an appeal panel upholding the -2 deduction that puts them on 48 points and sends them down. That's a decision that could ruin a club and set them back 3-4 years.

Could West Brom then take it higher and go to CAS?

Any punishment should be based on a club's breach of the rules, not on the consequences of the punishment.

We all know that but when did sensible ever play a part. West Ham survived relegation in 2007 because "it wouldn't be fair on their fans".

And not punishing properly isn't fair on the fans of all the other teams who'd played by the rules instead of breaking them.

bobmunro · April 15

golfaddick said:

bobmunro said:

Chris_from_Sidcup said:

Let's assume the verdict is given in the week before the final game and they're deducted -2. West Brom then appeal and the last games are played. The season ends with:

West Brom 50 points
-------------------
Oxford 49 points
Leicester 47 points

I just can't see an appeal panel upholding the -2 deduction that puts them on 48 points and sends them down. That's a decision that could ruin a club and set them back 3-4 years.

Could West Brom then take it higher and go to CAS?

Any punishment should be based on a club's breach of the rules, not on the consequences of the punishment.

We all know that but when did sensible ever play a part. West Ham survived relegation in 2007 because "it wouldn't be fair on their fans".

It's not about being sensible, it's about being just.

2007 was an example of it being unjust to Sheffield United and their fans.

Fumbluff · April 15

cabbles said:

Fumbluff said:

cabbles said:

As per bob’s comments, just punish them in line with the breach of the rules. We can’t have future implications being structured into it. Where does it end

Wasn’t that Paul Miller, the other mulleted one but the one without the belly (at the time)

Yes, I’m getting late 80s Lennie Lawrence signings confused

I think a proper grolly from Andy “tubs” Jones could’ve taken out any oppo defender it hit…

ElfsborgAddick · April 15

SoundAsa£ said:

Bedsaddick said:

paulsturgess said:

MartinCAFC said:

Given that the bookies have suspended relegation betting odds there must be a fair chance of a points deduction happening this season then,

Have they?! You can still bet on this … paddy power we currently 14/1 to go down

You can still get 20-1 on the Betfair Exchange

Correct me if I’m wrong but weren’t we around 250/1 to 300/1 to be relegated……only a month or so back?
I was seriously thinking of putting a couple of hundred quid on……but ElfsborgAddick talked me out of it.🤔

Good job you listened to me then mate.

KingKinsella · April 15

Diebythesword said:

The possibility that all 3 relegated teams could be teams that have had points deductions is farcical and should really bring government attention. More needs to be done to make clubs live within their means. The owners clearly don’t care about points deductions.

and not bothered by losing £55m...........

ElfsborgAddick · April 15

Fumbluff said:

cabbles said:

As per bob’s comments, just punish them in line with the breach of the rules. We can’t have future implications being structured into it. Where does it end

Wasn’t that Paul Miller, the other mulleted one but the one without the belly (at the time)

Correct, Sir Lennie booted him out after it.

The Red Robin · April 15

WrightCharlie said:

FWIW posting some of the text from an article in the Guardian:-

'West Brom could be given a points deduction that relegates them from the Championship after the season has finished as the club contest charges of breaching the English Football League’s profit and sustainability (P&S) rules.
With the Championship league season concluding on 2 May the EFL is running out of time to hear the charges against West Brom, which relate to an alleged breach of the £39m loss limit in the three-year period culminating in the 2024-25 season.
EFL sanctioning guidelines state that any punishment for a P&S breach must be applied in the campaign after it took place, which in West Brom’s case means this season, but the rulebook does not give a definitive cutoff point so it is unclear when the season ends.
The situation is complicated by the fact that West Brom are in the middle of a Championship relegation battle, with James Morrison’s side two points clear of third-bottom Oxford United with four games remaining, so even a small points deduction could send them down to League One. As well as the final round of league games there are alternative interpretations of when the season finishes, such as the Championship playoff final on 23 May or even the publication of next season’s fixtures on 25 June, with the latter date having a significant historical precedent which could give the EFL leeway to conclude the case.'

Their league position should be irrelevant.

jimmymelrose · April 15

Chris_from_Sidcup said:

Let's assume the verdict is given in the week before the final game and they're deducted -2. West Brom then appeal and the last games are played. The season ends with:

West Brom 50 points
-------------------
Oxford 49 points
Leicester 47 points

I just can't see an appeal panel upholding the -2 deduction that puts them on 48 points and sends them down. That's a decision that could ruin a club and set them back 3-4 years.

Could West Brom then take it higher and go to CAS?

3-4 years isn’t ruining a club.

Briston_Addick · April 15

The Red Robin said:

WrightCharlie said:

FWIW posting some of the text from an article in the Guardian:-

'West Brom could be given a points deduction that relegates them from the Championship after the season has finished as the club contest charges of breaching the English Football League’s profit and sustainability (P&S) rules.
With the Championship league season concluding on 2 May the EFL is running out of time to hear the charges against West Brom, which relate to an alleged breach of the £39m loss limit in the three-year period culminating in the 2024-25 season.
EFL sanctioning guidelines state that any punishment for a P&S breach must be applied in the campaign after it took place, which in West Brom’s case means this season, but the rulebook does not give a definitive cutoff point so it is unclear when the season ends.
The situation is complicated by the fact that West Brom are in the middle of a Championship relegation battle, with James Morrison’s side two points clear of third-bottom Oxford United with four games remaining, so even a small points deduction could send them down to League One. As well as the final round of league games there are alternative interpretations of when the season finishes, such as the Championship playoff final on 23 May or even the publication of next season’s fixtures on 25 June, with the latter date having a significant historical precedent which could give the EFL leeway to conclude the case.'

Their league position should be irrelevant.

Not the hardest "decision tree" to draw up:

Rules broken?

YES = punishment ... and if that means relegation then so be it

NO = move along please, nothing to see here

The Red Robin · April 15

MrBurns said:

cabbles said:

Probably will be before the last game to see how much of an impact it'll have

Yep. Dodgy as.

Henry Irving · April 15

bobmunro said:

NomadicAddick said:

NabySarr said:

Chris_from_Sidcup said:

Let's assume the verdict is given in the week before the final game and they're deducted -2. West Brom then appeal and the last games are played. The season ends with:

West Brom 50 points
-------------------
Oxford 49 points
Leicester 47 points

I just can't see an appeal panel upholding the -2 deduction that puts them on 48 points and sends them down. That's a decision that could ruin a club and set them back 3-4 years.

Could West Brom then take it higher and go to CAS?

It’s a mess because if they don’t deduct it this season then you’ll have, in this scenario, Oxford’s lawyers going for the EFL for not enforcing their rules

Do we need to get a Lawyer just in case then? What's Katrien up to these days?

What about Chris Farnell - I think he's got some time on his hands.

Oh wait .....

Nick de Marco.

Top football lawyer and childhood friend of Lady Irving

Gisappointed · April 15

Any punishment has to be in the latest season they achieved an advantage, not postponed to play against sides that do not have their financial acumen.

soapy_jones · April 15

I have every confidence that the matter will be dealt with promptly, fairly and with the least amount of fuss!

NURSE!!!

PrincessFiona · April 15

Gisappointed said:

Any punishment has to be in the latest season they achieved an advantage, not postponed to play against sides that do not have their financial acumen.

how did Wednesday get away with it before?

lordromford · April 15

Ok.
Apologies for the long post, but this issue bugs me.
Bear with me. You may disagree. I’m even willing to concede this might not be workable, but hear me out.

In my opinion, the problem with these points deduction “punishments” is that the problems are so numerous as to be farcical;

As examples off the top of my head, the process for allocating the punishment is too time consuming, clubs try to game the system, offences are open to interpretation, there are too many unknowns (eg how many points deducted?), and any decision is subject to appeals, counter-appeals etc.

On top of all this, there’s the farce that is the timing of the punishments. A number of clubs can rightfully feel hard done by regarding the timing of punishments of opponents over the years. Unfortunately, I don’t think this can ever be 100% resolved because a lot of the offences won’t get found out until a season is over or nearly over.

So with this in mind, I would suggest a model which might be problematic, but I think would be effective.
My suggestion would be that all points deductions should be issued in the Current Season if, and only if, at the end of the season, the effect of any points deductions in the current season would directly cause the club to miss out on one or more of:
a) Promotion
b) A place in the playoffs or
c) Avoidance of relegation.
If the points deduction wouldn’t have one of these effects, they should be allocated at the beginning of the following season and would apply regardless of any consequence (or lack of) of those deductions.

Although this would mean deducted points wouldn’t be clear until the season is over, it would solve a few issues, some of which we are seeing this year:
1) Situations like Sheffield Wednesday this year. I realise it looks like I’m saying kick a man when he’s down, but frankly, the 18 points they were deducted this year were meaningless. They knew they were going down anyway because they had no players. So they took the points penalty and they’ll possibly come straight back up as if nothing happened. With this model, they’d get those points deducted next year.
2) The Leicester situation. Whether they got points deducted or not, Leicester could survive or they could go down. If they finished enough points clear of relegation (before deductions) or if they would’ve gone down anyway, their 6 point penalty should be applied at the beginning of next season. If the points penalty makes the difference, it should be applied this year. An added effect of this would be that the penalised teams would have something to play for, even if that’s just getting enough points for their relegation (or non-promotion) to be directly because of the points deduction, so they wouldn’t have a penalty the following year. Opposing teams would have nothing to lose from this either. They’d be fully aware of what they need to do in the short term to finish where they hope to.
3) The West Brom situation. This one’s more to do with what is considered to be the “current season”. I’d suggest that if the final ruling on a club’s punishment (after all appeals have been heard) is made before the final game of the season, then that season should be considered to be the “current” season. This would encourage clubs to get the matter closed sooner rather than later. If a club drags its feet, they’d risk the punishment being the next season or even the one after that. The only issue I’d have with this is that if a club is just above the relegation zone as the season draws to a close, they may then string it out. But like I say, they could then feel the effect of a points deduction for the next year or possibly two. (Alternatively, it might be better for there to be some set date during the season which is considered to be the deadline for the punishment to be in the current season. Maybe 31st March, or something.)

4) As mentioned, this shouldn’t go on indefinitely. If a points deduction is carried over to the following season, they are applied at the beginning of the season, they apply regardless of outcome and after that, the punishment is over. It would therefore be possible for a club to suffer no real consequence to breaking the rules, but they’d have to go get through up to two years, and at least one full season.

My suspicion is that this is a minefield of an idea. Maybe it needs tweaks, or maybe it’s just stupid. 🤪 But I just thought I’d put it out there. 😎

Chippycafc · April 15

I love the optimism of those who think it will happen but my gut feeling is it wont till next season...just my gut feeling. Hope i am wrong.

Crispywood · April 15

Personally doesn’t think it matters they get a 2/3 point deduction that puts them on 43/44 same as Oxford.

Oxford
Derby A
Wrexham H
Sheff Wed H
Millwall A

West Brom

Preston A
Watford H
Ipswich H
Sheff Wed A

Back West Brom to get more points than Oxford from that run in

golfaddick · April 16

Crispywood said:

Personally doesn’t think it matters they get a 2/3 point deduction that puts them on 43/44 same as Oxford.

Oxford
Derby A
Wrexham H
Sheff Wed H
Millwall A

West Brom
Preston A
Watford H
Ipswich H
Sheff Wed A

Back West Brom to get more points than Oxford from that run in

WBA playing 2 teams that we have just played & 2 that we are about to.

What the betting they will get more points out of those 4 matches than we did/will ?

Chippycafc · April 16

Oxford are on a roll also. I can see then getting enough points to overtake us. We are on a spiral downwards.

Whether we like it or not definitely need Millwall to be in with a shout of promotion on the last day.

thenewbie · April 16

Chippycafc said:

Oxford are on a roll also. I can see then getting enough points to overtake us. We are on a spiral downwards.

Whether we like it or not definitely need Millwall to be in with a shout of promotion on the last day.

Oxford are "on a roll" by winning once in five? Think that's generous.

Chris_from_Sidcup · April 16

thenewbie said:

Chippycafc said:

Oxford are on a roll also. I can see then getting enough points to overtake us. We are on a spiral downwards.

Whether we like it or not definitely need Millwall to be in with a shout of promotion on the last day.

Oxford are "on a roll" by winning once in five? Think that's generous.

15 points in their last 8 games. Only 5 teams have more in that time, and 3 of them are going for automatic promotion.

Alwaysneil · April 16

About time they started losing then

Chippycafc · April 16

thenewbie said:

Chippycafc said:

Oxford are on a roll also. I can see then getting enough points to overtake us. We are on a spiral downwards.

Whether we like it or not definitely need Millwall to be in with a shout of promotion on the last day.

Oxford are "on a roll" by winning once in five? Think that's generous.

Last 8 games 5 wins 2 draws 1 defeat to Southampton. Think most people would say that's on a roll. Ours is probably the reverse of that without checking. Had we not scored in injury time against them that would be 6-1-1. Pompey scored a late equaliser too so they would have been above us.

Wander what that would be called mini roll.

Crispywood · April 16

Chris_from_Sidcup said:

thenewbie said:

Chippycafc said:

Oxford are on a roll also. I can see then getting enough points to overtake us. We are on a spiral downwards.

Whether we like it or not definitely need Millwall to be in with a shout of promotion on the last day.

Oxford are "on a roll" by winning once in five? Think that's generous.

15 points in their last 8 games. Only 5 teams have more in that time, and 3 of them are going for automatic promotion.

Think it’s important to consider they’re played 1 top 10 team in that time which they lost and half their games were against relegation scrappers.

They have 3 top 8 teams in their next 4

fenlandaddick · April 16

Have they relegated them yet... 🤣

MuttleyCAFC · 6:44AM

What I understand is that this is relating to interest payments by the former owner which pushes them beyond the threshold. There have been discussions before this was announced between the club and the EFL as to whether it is relevant to include them. The EFL has decided it is and it is up to a panel to make a final decision. It will absolutely happen this season if a points deduction is decided. It could be as little as 3 points which would currently have WBA in the relegation places. If it is, it would suit the EFL if the decision is made quickly rather than at a time where the 3 points could be inconsequential. It is not great for all clubs down there as I'm sure WBA will appeal and if those points change anything, it will be a real mess if they win that appeal. I suppose a club that would have gone down otherwise would take that. Hopefully we keep clear of all of this nonsense.

Chris_from_Sidcup · 6:58AM

MuttleyCAFC said:

What I understand is that this is relating to interest payments by the former owner which pushes them beyond the threshold. There have been discussions before this was announced between the club and the EFL as to whether it is relevant to include them. The EFL has decided it is and it is up to a panel to make a final decision. It will absolutely happen this season if a points deduction is decided. It could be as little as 3 points which would currently have WBA in the relegation places. If it is, it would suit the EFL if the decision is made quickly rather than at a time where the 3 points could be inconsequential. It is not great for all clubs down there as I'm sure WBA will appeal and if those points change anything, it will be a real mess if they win that appeal. I suppose a club that would have gone down otherwise would take that. Hopefully we keep clear of all of this nonsense.

If Sheff Weds can still be getting fucked over by issues related to their former owner, then West Brom can too.

Interest payments are still outgoings and should be accounted for.

MuttleyCAFC · 7:16AM

Chris_from_Sidcup said:

MuttleyCAFC said:

What I understand is that this is relating to interest payments by the former owner which pushes them beyond the threshold. There have been discussions before this was announced between the club and the EFL as to whether it is relevant to include them. The EFL has decided it is and it is up to a panel to make a final decision. It will absolutely happen this season if a points deduction is decided. It could be as little as 3 points which would currently have WBA in the relegation places. If it is, it would suit the EFL if the decision is made quickly rather than at a time where the 3 points could be inconsequential. It is not great for all clubs down there as I'm sure WBA will appeal and if those points change anything, it will be a real mess if they win that appeal. I suppose a club that would have gone down otherwise would take that. Hopefully we keep clear of all of this nonsense.

If Sheff Weds can still be getting fucked over by issues related to their former owner, then West Brom can too.

Interest payments are still outgoings and should be accounted for.

That is the league's position I think. Whilst it has only recently been announced, discussions between WBA and the EFL have been going on longer. The accounts were submitted in December. Seeing as the EFL have decided the payments are relevant, I think it is a good bet that WBA will get a points deduction, the question being how many and when this season.

stackitsteve · 9:51AM

Sky Sports have a lot more faith in us than any of our fans.

During the discussion on West Brom (5 or 6 minutes of which has been uploaded to YouTube) they never mention us once. They do however, repeatedly mention the “five clubs on tenterhooks waiting for a decision”

West Brom Face Potential Points Deduction

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