As Arsene Wenger said it best "if you make the class easier the pupils at the bottom of the class get better grades but are they any more clever?"
The problem is we're not producing English players better than their foreign counterparts, and untill we do we'll have a problem. By limiting foreign players all you'll be doing is lowering the quality of the 'top level' and getting a false impression. Sure you'll have more average English players playing reguarly in the Premier league to pick an England squad from... but do you really want these players representing their country anyway? It's upto the academys to improve and bring through young english talent that is a cheaper better alternative to buying foreign
The problem is, we don't produce technically good enough footballers, and the problem goes right to kids level in this country, the player with workrate is valued more then the one with a decent touch, good old calvanistic values, but at international level it doesn't work.
Carter - I agree with what your saying that some our players should experience football in other leagues. But Italy won the WC with the majority of their squad playing in Italy and teh fact of the matter is World Class players can earn more money playing in England than anywhere else so why the need to move?
What we need is a manager who has a glame plan and picks players to play to that formation.
What we've had are managers who have picked players because they play for good sides and then has tried to shoehorn them into a formation regardless of the weaknesses that are exposed elsewhere.
We've all said, and on every football football forum these words will be repesated, that Gerrard and Lampard cannot play well together. Their skills don't compliment each other and consequently they look as a unit weak - and that's our central midfield we are talking about.
For Chelsea Lampard is used to someone winning the ball for him, allowing him to get forward, for Chelsea he is world class at that. Gerrard at Liverpool is used to playing behind the strikers on a free position, doing the ball winning etc and play making, yet for England he plays too deep and simply doesn't gel with Lampard.
Joe Cole is a good player, a great footballing player in fact, but gets stuck on the left.
What we need is a manager who can stand up to the big clubs, kick those with egos out and base a future England team around a squad and a style of play that suits the players and the objectives of defending tightly, winning ball in midfield and delivering it to the strikers. With Rooney, Owen, Defoe, Bent and Crouch we have a choice of decent strikers who can be relied on to convert a decent amount of chances.
We need that manager to get a good team spirit going and get the players playing and looking forward to being able to show what they can do on the international stage. Under eriksson and then McClaren there was too much safety first football and picking players for political reasons not because of what they would actually contribute. You don't have to have a world class player in every position and that in itself is often counter-productive as McClaren has just demonstrated. For every chief, you need a few indians.
[cite]Posted By: Rothko[/cite]The problem is, we don't produce technically good enough footballers, and the problem goes right to kids level in this country, the player with workrate is valued more then the one with a decent touch, good old calvanistic values, but at international level it doesn't work.
This maybe true for this bunch of players but I thought that the long-term plan under Brooking and co is to get away from this.
Personally I think the players in the team yesterday are technically competent, maybe not the best in the world but competent. In the FAPL, the players play a high tempo game based on focus, confidence and team work. What was different between the teams yesterday is that Croatia were extemely focussed, confident and playing like a team. We were not confident by our team selection (rooky keeper, make shift back four, and one up front), didn't play as a team and this led players into techincal mistakes and ponderous play. Somehow, at least in the short term we need a manager who can get the players playing like a team with confidence.
We play high tempo in the Premiership, but technically it isn't a good league, not on a par with Spain, Italy or even Germany and Holland. In a country like ours of 50m, we should be able to produce players who can fit into a side, cause there good enough and intelligent enough. But we don't.
It's also not helped by McClaren over thinking tactically, there was no reason to change the 4-4-2 we had been playing with Barry and Gerrard, but he got himself in to a position where he played for the nil, and then didn't react to it early enough
If the Croats had a central midfielder missings, someone else could have steped in, and performed well.
[cite]Posted By: T[/cite] But Italy won the WC with the majority of their squad playing in Italy and teh fact of the matter is World Class players can earn more money playing in England than anywhere else so why the need to move?
To better yourself? Ince, Platt, Gascoigne, Walker, Beckham, Owen and Wilkins to name a few all did it and went out of the comfort zone with differing success.
If an English youngster is not getting a look in why isn't his agent/representative searching the continent for a tier 1 club in any country for his boy to ply his trade?
That would appear to be the problem though. The foreign youngsters seem to want it that bit more.
We are deluding ourselves about the quality of our players particularly strikers.
Rooney is probably world class but still has temperament issues on the International stage and of course injury issues. Owen is not wanted by the top 4 Prem clubs and was 3rd choice at Real Madrid Defoe and Bent. Splinters job at Spurs. Crouch. Likewise at Liverpool.
So yes good players but not likely to cause World class defenders too many sleepless nights.
And we are all are guilty and fall into the expectation trap that we should win these games. How many of us said we are playing Croatia, top of the group, who beat us on their patch and have already qualified. Yeah winning by 2 clear goals and finishing top of the group is quite attainable!!. No. We are not that good both individually and as a team and need the very best manager to ensure qualifications and decent results when we do. But do those best Managers want the job?
At the time Platt, Walker, Lineker, Gascoigne,Walker, Wilkins & Ince played abroad English football couldn't compete with the wages of Italy & Spain, the quality of Serie A and La Liga were light years ahead. The premiership is as good a league and a notch up on international football and the money is as good if not better. Did Beckham go to improve his game or to promote himself? Owen struck me as a bloke who went to improve his game... Also it's interesting to note Gazza aside the players mentioned are the more cerebral footballers of the past 20 years...
Totally agree about English Youngsters... there is only a finite amount of players in the world leagues. Go and play in France, Holland, Portugal if you're released by a premierlegaue side. Whether it's something in the psyche of young english players or the ease in which they can get another go through the football league pyramid.
[cite]Posted By: T[/cite]At the time Platt, Walker, Lineker, Gascoigne,Walker, Wilkins & Ince played abroad English football couldn't compete with the wages of Italy & Spain, the quality of Serie A and La Liga were light years ahead. The premiership is as good a league and a notch up on international football and the money is as good if not better. Did Beckham go to improve his game or to promote himself? Owen struck me as a bloke who went to improve his game... Also it's interesting to note Gazza aside the players mentioned are the more cerebral footballers of the past 20 years...
Totally agree about English Youngsters... there is only a finite amount of players in the world leagues. Go and play in France, Holland, Portugal if you're released by a premierlegaue side. Whether it's something in the psyche of young english players or the ease in which they can get another go through the football league pyramid.
Language is an issue.
The stereotypical footballer is likely to have left school early at the first opportunity so will know little or nothing of any foreign languages.
On the other hand English appears to be taught in most foreign countries which makes it easier for foreigners to come here than our lot to go there.
This is an e-mail I received from my Norwegian mate, Morten, sums it up well I think.
"Hi mate
Sad to see England yesterday. They were rubbish! It has been said before; the reason the English clubs are doing well in Europe is because of the foreign stars. Whenever an English player is considered for the national team, the price goes through the roof. Good example: Aston Villas Agbonlahor is rated £15 mill when the rumour was that Arsenal could be interested. Arsenal paid 2,8mill for van Persie, 3 something for Adebaior, no wonder why Wenger don’t buy English... And in the end the English national team suffers because of this. Many of the best English players don’t play for the best clubs – and are because of that not considered for national duty, and if you are lucky to play for one of the top clubs, you are automatically in the national team.
We are back in Albufeira in March. Hope you are able to keep the bar, would be sad if you don’t."
[cite]Posted By: Rothko[/cite]We play high tempo in the Premiership, but technically it isn't a good league, not on a par with Spain, Italy or even Germany and Holland. In a country like ours of 50m, we should be able to produce players who can fit into a side, cause there good enough and intelligent enough. But we don't.
It's also not helped by McClaren over thinking tactically, there was no reason to change the 4-4-2 we had been playing with Barry and Gerrard, but he got himself in to a position where he played for the nil, and then didn't react to it early enough
If the Croats had a central midfielder missings, someone else could have steped in, and performed well.
Spain may be a more technically competent league than ours but what have they won on the international stage? - Sweet diddly!!
It isn't just about technical competence otherwise why would Greece have won the last Championship and why we have three out of four teams from the FAPL been in the Champions League semi's last year? Arsenal have a team of extremely athletic technically competent players so its not just about teamwork and physicality. Its getting the right balance of all these things. We have demonstrably failed to get that combination right over the last 40 years.
Ensuring the players of the future have better technical skills is a truely long-term project and possibly we are half-way through that. Building a national team around the strengths of the players we have now is what is needed in the short term.
i haven't read all the posts on this thread so apoligies if i'm repeating anyone.
in a nutshell, the pinnacle of club football is the champions league. out of our side last night, only 2 play regularly at that level. them 2 have proved time and again that they cannot play together. the players just aren't good enough.
Comments
As Arsene Wenger said it best "if you make the class easier the pupils at the bottom of the class get better grades but are they any more clever?"
The problem is we're not producing English players better than their foreign counterparts, and untill we do we'll have a problem. By limiting foreign players all you'll be doing is lowering the quality of the 'top level' and getting a false impression. Sure you'll have more average English players playing reguarly in the Premier league to pick an England squad from... but do you really want these players representing their country anyway? It's upto the academys to improve and bring through young english talent that is a cheaper better alternative to buying foreign
What we've had are managers who have picked players because they play for good sides and then has tried to shoehorn them into a formation regardless of the weaknesses that are exposed elsewhere.
We've all said, and on every football football forum these words will be repesated, that Gerrard and Lampard cannot play well together. Their skills don't compliment each other and consequently they look as a unit weak - and that's our central midfield we are talking about.
For Chelsea Lampard is used to someone winning the ball for him, allowing him to get forward, for Chelsea he is world class at that. Gerrard at Liverpool is used to playing behind the strikers on a free position, doing the ball winning etc and play making, yet for England he plays too deep and simply doesn't gel with Lampard.
Joe Cole is a good player, a great footballing player in fact, but gets stuck on the left.
What we need is a manager who can stand up to the big clubs, kick those with egos out and base a future England team around a squad and a style of play that suits the players and the objectives of defending tightly, winning ball in midfield and delivering it to the strikers. With Rooney, Owen, Defoe, Bent and Crouch we have a choice of decent strikers who can be relied on to convert a decent amount of chances.
We need that manager to get a good team spirit going and get the players playing and looking forward to being able to show what they can do on the international stage. Under eriksson and then McClaren there was too much safety first football and picking players for political reasons not because of what they would actually contribute. You don't have to have a world class player in every position and that in itself is often counter-productive as McClaren has just demonstrated. For every chief, you need a few indians.
This maybe true for this bunch of players but I thought that the long-term plan under Brooking and co is to get away from this.
Personally I think the players in the team yesterday are technically competent, maybe not the best in the world but competent. In the FAPL, the players play a high tempo game based on focus, confidence and team work. What was different between the teams yesterday is that Croatia were extemely focussed, confident and playing like a team. We were not confident by our team selection (rooky keeper, make shift back four, and one up front), didn't play as a team and this led players into techincal mistakes and ponderous play. Somehow, at least in the short term we need a manager who can get the players playing like a team with confidence.
It's also not helped by McClaren over thinking tactically, there was no reason to change the 4-4-2 we had been playing with Barry and Gerrard, but he got himself in to a position where he played for the nil, and then didn't react to it early enough
If the Croats had a central midfielder missings, someone else could have steped in, and performed well.
To better yourself? Ince, Platt, Gascoigne, Walker, Beckham, Owen and Wilkins to name a few all did it and went out of the comfort zone with differing success.
If an English youngster is not getting a look in why isn't his agent/representative searching the continent for a tier 1 club in any country for his boy to ply his trade?
That would appear to be the problem though. The foreign youngsters seem to want it that bit more.
Rooney is probably world class but still has temperament issues on the International stage and of course injury issues.
Owen is not wanted by the top 4 Prem clubs and was 3rd choice at Real Madrid
Defoe and Bent. Splinters job at Spurs.
Crouch. Likewise at Liverpool.
So yes good players but not likely to cause World class defenders too many sleepless nights.
And we are all are guilty and fall into the expectation trap that we should win these games. How many of us said we are playing Croatia, top of the group, who beat us on their patch and have already qualified. Yeah winning by 2 clear goals and finishing top of the group is quite attainable!!. No. We are not that good both individually and as a team and need the very best manager to ensure qualifications and decent results when we do. But do those best Managers want the job?
Totally agree about English Youngsters... there is only a finite amount of players in the world leagues. Go and play in France, Holland, Portugal if you're released by a premierlegaue side. Whether it's something in the psyche of young english players or the ease in which they can get another go through the football league pyramid.
Language is an issue.
The stereotypical footballer is likely to have left school early at the first opportunity so will know little or nothing of any foreign languages.
On the other hand English appears to be taught in most foreign countries which makes it easier for foreigners to come here than our lot to go there.
And i make you right Len. language is a factor. But it's an English problem rather than a football one...
"Hi mate
Sad to see England yesterday. They were rubbish! It has been said before; the reason the English clubs are doing well in Europe is because of the foreign stars. Whenever an English player is considered for the national team, the price goes through the roof. Good example: Aston Villas Agbonlahor is rated £15 mill when the rumour was that Arsenal could be interested. Arsenal paid 2,8mill for van Persie, 3 something for Adebaior, no wonder why Wenger don’t buy English... And in the end the English national team suffers because of this. Many of the best English players don’t play for the best clubs – and are because of that not considered for national duty, and if you are lucky to play for one of the top clubs, you are automatically in the national team.
We are back in Albufeira in March. Hope you are able to keep the bar, would be sad if you don’t."
He could actually use his left foot during his time in Madrid
Spain may be a more technically competent league than ours but what have they won on the international stage? - Sweet diddly!!
It isn't just about technical competence otherwise why would Greece have won the last Championship and why we have three out of four teams from the FAPL been in the Champions League semi's last year? Arsenal have a team of extremely athletic technically competent players so its not just about teamwork and physicality. Its getting the right balance of all these things. We have demonstrably failed to get that combination right over the last 40 years.
Ensuring the players of the future have better technical skills is a truely long-term project and possibly we are half-way through that. Building a national team around the strengths of the players we have now is what is needed in the short term.
in a nutshell, the pinnacle of club football is the champions league.
out of our side last night, only 2 play regularly at that level. them 2 have proved time and again that they cannot play together.
the players just aren't good enough.