He was left with little choice to assume power but turned down the throne on more than one occasion.
............
No, if he'd been the democrat he believed himself to be he'd have acceded to wishes of the elected majority. His invasion of Ireland was a disaster - leaving around a third of the population dead.
The Levellers were repressed by Cromwell - the leaders of the Levellers - people like John Lilburne had pointed out that despite fighting and dying for Parliament and democracy many of them were not able to vote, let alone sit in the Commons as MPs. Cromwell although he wanted the monarchy abolished refused to give voting rights to all men, had Lilburne arrested and purged the NMA of the levellers.
[cite]Posted By: BlackForestReds[/cite]He was left with little choice to assume power but turned down the throne on more than one occasion.
............
No, if he'd been the democrat he believed himself to be he'd have acceded to wishes of the elected majority. His invasion of Ireland was a disaster - leaving around a third of the population dead.
The Levellers were repressed by Cromwell - the leaders of the Levellers - people like John Lilburne had pointed out that despite fighting and dying for Parliament and democracy many of them were not able to vote, let alone sit in the Commons as MPs. Cromwell although he wanted the monarchy abolished refused to give voting rights to all men, had Lilburne arrested and purged the NMA of the levellers.
You might want to look up the Putney debates...
I did cite his repression of the Agigitators (who were mainly Levelers) in the NMA as one of his negatives.
The elected majority rufused to function as a parliament or seek re-election. He took the step to govern without them which was wrong but what alternative did he have?
Cromwell as a man of his time and so was not a democrat in any modern sense just as the levellers (most of them at least) did not call for universal sufferage but only male sufferage.
a third of the population of Ireland died? Are you sure. Certainly not killed by Cromwells army.
Dublin Uni two years ago did alot of research into Cromwell and Ireland they found that the vast majority of the legend is untrue. He was no more of a bastard to the Irish than he was to the English who didnt agree with him !
As for the famines in Ireland it amazes me that people know how many died but they have no idea of how many died in england.
Who were the Red Legs and how did they get there name ? it has f**K all to do with Jesse Wales but does have something to do with Cromwell.
[cite]Posted By: Fishnets[/cite]a third of the population of Ireland died? Are you sure. Certainly not killed by Cromwells army.
A load of tosh..
From Threadkiller's first link:
The death toll of the conflict was huge. William Petty, a Cromwellian who conducted the first scientific land and demographic survey of Ireland in the 1650s (theDown Survey), concluded that at least 400,000 people and maybe as many as 620,000 had died in Ireland between 1641 and 1653. The true figure may be lower, but the lowest suggested is about 200,000. And this in a country of only around 1.5 million inhabitants. It is estimated that about two thirds of the deaths were civilian. The Irish defeat led to the mass confiscation of Catholic owned land and the British Protestant domination of Ireland for over two centuries.
But those figures, even if true which is debatable for a period with no proper census and where most reports were propoganda for one side or the other, relate to ALL deaths in the civil wars not just those related to Cromwells invasion. They also include famine and plague figures. Famine perhaps is a by product of war by plague was random and uncontrolable in war or peace as the frequent plagues in England show.
[cite]Posted By: Riscardo[/cite]When did they repeal the Corn Laws?
1833 ish
1846.
The Corn Laws (tariffs on imported corn) were imposed in 1815 at the conclusion of the Napoleonic wars and were designed to protect the incomes of British landowners from cheap imports of grain. In years where there was a good harvest this didn't create that much of aproblem, as supply and demand kept prices relatively low, however in years where there was a poor harvest the price of corn rose artificially high and only then did it become economically viable to import corn.
One such year was 1845 and in Ireland in particular the potato crop failed meaning that they couldn't afford grain and had no potatoes to feed themselves on, which was their staple crop and this led to mass starvation, allied to which there were outbreaks of cholera. Despite the evidence of thousands of starving people in Ireland the Tory party voted first to maintian the Corn Laws, before voting to gradually repeal them. Their concern for landowners/farmer's profits was stronger than hundreds of thousands of starving paddies. Eventually they relented and repealed the Corn Laws in their entirity later that year.
At that time Ireland's population was around 8m, but many died and there were mass emigrations pretty much for the rest of the century and beyond. Ireland's population has never reached these levels since then.
The response of some landlords was to forcibly clear their land of tenants, mostly because the (invariably British/Protestant) landlords weren't getting rents paid. One notorious example was Lord Lucan who cleared his land of tens of thousands of starving and disease ridden people. He later went on to greater infamy by co-organising the blunder known as the Charge of the Light Brigade - see post #1 in this thread.
That much is evident. Now your mind is made up, whatever you do don't let any facts get in the way.
There was a notorious massacre at Drogheda were after that city was a taken a number of catholics hid/took shelter in a church, only to have it burnt down while they were still inside. In addition a number of children were sold into slavery in the West Indies. Others were forciblt re-settled in areas where farmland was poor, while the good farmland was given to supporters of Cromwell who naturally were protestants. Acts like these and many other well documented massacres indicate that to me Cromwell was more of an evil bit of work inspired by his own maniacal religious beliefs rather than a soldier and a product of his times.
How many died in the famines and palgues that hit England during the same period, how many protestants died in massacres by cathlolics on protestants ?
Who were the red legs ? as you wont say i`ll tell you. They were English people transported as slaves to the colonies by Cromwell, but as usual we English dont die in massacres or famines or plagues do we ?
[cite]Posted By: Goonerhater[/cite]How many died in the famines and palgues that hit England during the same period, how many protestants died in massacres by cathlolics on protestants ?
Who were the red legs ? as you wont say i`ll tell you. They were English people transported as slaves to the colonies by Cromwell, but as usual we English dont die in massacres or famines or plagues do we ?
you as always have an open mind.
A shame yours remains locked and bolted...
The major problem was not that there was no food in Ireland - there was plenty of wheat etc just that much of what was produced was exported to the British mainland, because protectionist tariffs had kept the price of grain artificially high and therefore there was more profit in selling it to the more affluent English and anyway the Irish peasants had no money with which to buy the food and relied on the potato as their staple crop. A few generations of absent landlordism had meant that while Ireland had a booming agrarian industry most of the profits were being exported along with the grain and not re-invested in better agriculture. The rural irish subsisted on the potato which was fine until a blight afflicted the potato crop causing it to fail and this led literally to mass starvation. Allied to which the government (in Westminster) was not prepared to give food to the starving Irish on the grounds that the Irish were notoriously lazy and feckless and free food would merely encourage this trait. Neither were they in favour of repealing the Corn Laws because they felt that the profits of a small number of landlords and farmers, who mostly were also MPs and Lords, were more important than ensuring that the Irish were being fed. In essence they believed that the famine was brought on by the Irish themselves. As to why the English/Scots didn't suffer a famine in this time is simple - they had a more diversified diet, not relying on the potato and besides were benefitting from imports of Irish grain, plus England and the Scottish lowlands had developing urban industries - steel, cotton etc. The campaign to repeal the Corn Laws was mostly fought by free-trade advocates who also tended to be mill owners - what you might call the entrepreneurial middle classes - people like Richard Cobden who had extensive business empires in trade and wanted to see overseas and even internal markets open up, and so was modern Britain born.
3. You'll find the Menin Gate at Ypres. The Menin Gate was on the way out of the town of Ypres towards the front and therefore most of those who fought in the battle went through it before fighting. The Menin Gate was destroyed by shellfire but was rebuilt after WWI and now lists the names of all those in the British/Commonwealth Army who have no known graves.
Not strictly correct. It commemorates those of all Commonwealth nations (except New Zealand) who died in the Salient, in the case of United Kingdom casualties before 16 August 1917. The Memorial Panels at Tyne Cot Cemetery records the names of the missing after this date (mainly 3rd Ypres).
This thread was started in fun with a few questions about history but you have to come in with your condesending hog wash dont you ? As a typical old school socialist every person who disagrees with you is a nazi and you have the usual chip on your shouder re England. You believe you have an open mind where in fact you have the most closed mind of anyone on this board.
[cite]Posted By: Goonerhater[/cite]This thread was started in fun with a few questions about history but you have to come in with your condesending hog wash dont you ? As a typical old school socialist every person who disagrees with you is a nazi and you have the usual chip on your shouder re England. You believe you have an open mind where in fact you have the most closed mind of anyone on this board.
This thread was started in fun with a few questions about history but you have to come in with your condesending hog wash dont you ? As a typical old school socialist every person who disagrees with you is a nazi and you have the usual chip on your shouder re England
............
Good grief, you've gone off on one agai haven't you? Where do I call you a "nazi" - and on that should I get upset because someone with the brains and erudition of a sea cucumber calls me a a "typical old school socialist"? Please note that I did give you the benefit of a long and reasonably detailed reply knowing full well that I was totally wasting my time, something you've just confirmed. As for me being anti-English, sadly matey not everything the English have done throughout history has been 100% honourable, perfidious Albion and all that.
I'll not bother any more with this thread, but I would advise you to seek some urgent medical assistance for your thin skin and/or your need to resort to invective whenever anyone slightly better informed (which is most of us) *dares* to disagree with you.
BFR, you said "make your own minds up" I did and then you had a go at me.
I also think you are mixing up your famines. The potato famine was a lot later. The web is good but I think you rely on it a little too much as a source document.
bfr only mentions the potato famine in relation to the repeal of the corn laws and he gives the dates in the 1840's.
i think it was you who actually made the connection with the deaths of the high percentage of the irish population at the hands of cromwell, as that of famine.
Comments
............
No, if he'd been the democrat he believed himself to be he'd have acceded to wishes of the elected majority. His invasion of Ireland was a disaster - leaving around a third of the population dead.
The Levellers were repressed by Cromwell - the leaders of the Levellers - people like John Lilburne had pointed out that despite fighting and dying for Parliament and democracy many of them were not able to vote, let alone sit in the Commons as MPs. Cromwell although he wanted the monarchy abolished refused to give voting rights to all men, had Lilburne arrested and purged the NMA of the levellers.
You might want to look up the Putney debates...
I did cite his repression of the Agigitators (who were mainly Levelers) in the NMA as one of his negatives.
The elected majority rufused to function as a parliament or seek re-election. He took the step to govern without them which was wrong but what alternative did he have?
Cromwell as a man of his time and so was not a democrat in any modern sense just as the levellers (most of them at least) did not call for universal sufferage but only male sufferage.
a third of the population of Ireland died? Are you sure. Certainly not killed by Cromwells army.
A load of tosh..
As for the famines in Ireland it amazes me that people know how many died but they have no idea of how many died in england.
Who were the Red Legs and how did they get there name ? it has f**K all to do with Jesse Wales but does have something to do with Cromwell.
link 2
1833 ish
From Threadkiller's first link:
The death toll of the conflict was huge. William Petty, a Cromwellian who conducted the first scientific land and demographic survey of Ireland in the 1650s (theDown Survey), concluded that at least 400,000 people and maybe as many as 620,000 had died in Ireland between 1641 and 1653. The true figure may be lower, but the lowest suggested is about 200,000. And this in a country of only around 1.5 million inhabitants. It is estimated that about two thirds of the deaths were civilian. The Irish defeat led to the mass confiscation of Catholic owned land and the British Protestant domination of Ireland for over two centuries.
Make your own minds up...
I've made my mind up, thanks.
I believe in justice
I believe in vengeance
I believe in getting the b*stards, getting the b*stards
1846.
The Corn Laws (tariffs on imported corn) were imposed in 1815 at the conclusion of the Napoleonic wars and were designed to protect the incomes of British landowners from cheap imports of grain. In years where there was a good harvest this didn't create that much of aproblem, as supply and demand kept prices relatively low, however in years where there was a poor harvest the price of corn rose artificially high and only then did it become economically viable to import corn.
One such year was 1845 and in Ireland in particular the potato crop failed meaning that they couldn't afford grain and had no potatoes to feed themselves on, which was their staple crop and this led to mass starvation, allied to which there were outbreaks of cholera. Despite the evidence of thousands of starving people in Ireland the Tory party voted first to maintian the Corn Laws, before voting to gradually repeal them. Their concern for landowners/farmer's profits was stronger than hundreds of thousands of starving paddies. Eventually they relented and repealed the Corn Laws in their entirity later that year.
At that time Ireland's population was around 8m, but many died and there were mass emigrations pretty much for the rest of the century and beyond. Ireland's population has never reached these levels since then.
The response of some landlords was to forcibly clear their land of tenants, mostly because the (invariably British/Protestant) landlords weren't getting rents paid. One notorious example was Lord Lucan who cleared his land of tens of thousands of starving and disease ridden people. He later went on to greater infamy by co-organising the blunder known as the Charge of the Light Brigade - see post #1 in this thread.
That much is evident. Now your mind is made up, whatever you do don't let any facts get in the way.
There was a notorious massacre at Drogheda were after that city was a taken a number of catholics hid/took shelter in a church, only to have it burnt down while they were still inside. In addition a number of children were sold into slavery in the West Indies. Others were forciblt re-settled in areas where farmland was poor, while the good farmland was given to supporters of Cromwell who naturally were protestants. Acts like these and many other well documented massacres indicate that to me Cromwell was more of an evil bit of work inspired by his own maniacal religious beliefs rather than a soldier and a product of his times.
Who were the red legs ? as you wont say i`ll tell you. They were English people transported as slaves to the colonies by Cromwell, but as usual we English dont die in massacres or famines or plagues do we ?
you as always have an open mind.
A shame yours remains locked and bolted...
The major problem was not that there was no food in Ireland - there was plenty of wheat etc just that much of what was produced was exported to the British mainland, because protectionist tariffs had kept the price of grain artificially high and therefore there was more profit in selling it to the more affluent English and anyway the Irish peasants had no money with which to buy the food and relied on the potato as their staple crop. A few generations of absent landlordism had meant that while Ireland had a booming agrarian industry most of the profits were being exported along with the grain and not re-invested in better agriculture. The rural irish subsisted on the potato which was fine until a blight afflicted the potato crop causing it to fail and this led literally to mass starvation. Allied to which the government (in Westminster) was not prepared to give food to the starving Irish on the grounds that the Irish were notoriously lazy and feckless and free food would merely encourage this trait. Neither were they in favour of repealing the Corn Laws because they felt that the profits of a small number of landlords and farmers, who mostly were also MPs and Lords, were more important than ensuring that the Irish were being fed. In essence they believed that the famine was brought on by the Irish themselves. As to why the English/Scots didn't suffer a famine in this time is simple - they had a more diversified diet, not relying on the potato and besides were benefitting from imports of Irish grain, plus England and the Scottish lowlands had developing urban industries - steel, cotton etc. The campaign to repeal the Corn Laws was mostly fought by free-trade advocates who also tended to be mill owners - what you might call the entrepreneurial middle classes - people like Richard Cobden who had extensive business empires in trade and wanted to see overseas and even internal markets open up, and so was modern Britain born.
3. You'll find the Menin Gate at Ypres. The Menin Gate was on the way out of the town of Ypres towards the front and therefore most of those who fought in the battle went through it before fighting. The Menin Gate was destroyed by shellfire but was rebuilt after WWI and now lists the names of all those in the British/Commonwealth Army who have no known graves.
Not strictly correct. It commemorates those of all Commonwealth nations (except New Zealand) who died in the Salient, in the case of United Kingdom casualties before 16 August 1917. The Memorial Panels at Tyne Cot Cemetery records the names of the missing after this date (mainly 3rd Ypres).
bit harsh on threadkiller ;-0
............
Good grief, you've gone off on one agai haven't you? Where do I call you a "nazi" - and on that should I get upset because someone with the brains and erudition of a sea cucumber calls me a a "typical old school socialist"? Please note that I did give you the benefit of a long and reasonably detailed reply knowing full well that I was totally wasting my time, something you've just confirmed. As for me being anti-English, sadly matey not everything the English have done throughout history has been 100% honourable, perfidious Albion and all that.
I'll not bother any more with this thread, but I would advise you to seek some urgent medical assistance for your thin skin and/or your need to resort to invective whenever anyone slightly better informed (which is most of us) *dares* to disagree with you.
Have fun...
I also think you are mixing up your famines. The potato famine was a lot later. The web is good but I think you rely on it a little too much as a source document.
i think it was you who actually made the connection with the deaths of the high percentage of the irish population at the hands of cromwell, as that of famine.
and what to things will happen if we hear the sound of Drakes drum ?
why are prison wardens called screws ?
Panama, off the coast somewhere
It beats during problematic times, e.g. before both world wars