Yes, all this 'closer links with Europe' stuff is highly distressing for me. I think we should ally ourselves even more closely with the US. We already act as their early warning system for nuclear strikes, calibration ground for their own missile strikes in the event of a third world war, act as pacifier when they throw their toys out of the pram over their 'right' to oil in the middle east and are so intrinsically linked to their economy that the fact they have been selling 300,000 dollar mortgages on four room swamp shacks to hillbillies with the IQ of a carrot is somehow ruining our economy.
How about 'Massachussets East' as a state name? or, even better, what about 'Old England'?
Seriously, I'd rather be European than a yank any day of the week and, lets face it, the way things are going, sooner or later we'll have to choosie up sides. The days where a country our size could punch well above its weight are over (have been over for thirty odd years in fact) and the European economy is far, far more stable than the US one will ever be. The EU also, despite the utter bollocks that toilet paper like the Mail and Express print, has some pretty sensible legal policy - especially over things like the treatment of employees, fiscal responsibility of corporations and reigning in the power of supermarkets. Yes there are drawbacks, yes it would be very odd having to get used to different systems of local and national government and yes there would inevitably be some serious growing pains along the way. However, in the long run, I know who I would rather side with if it ever came down to a straight choice between the EU and the US.
However, for all that - and I guess wanting closer links with Europe probably puts me in a minority of one on this board - I agree with the points made about the fact that we aren't being given the referendum we were promised - that's a disgrace.
Keep the mad yanks as far away as possible, just visit California to realise how European we are!
However, we are in a small minority, partly due to xenophobia, partly due to people believing what they read in the papers (when it suits them). But as a believer in democracy, we should have that referendum, and the result would be a resounding "No", as it would be across Europe, and unlike the politicians, I would accept that.
It is a measure of the arrogance of politicians throughout the continent that France and Germany are saying press ahead regardless, and Barroso says there is still a way forward. They even want to break the rules that they make up in the first place!
The start of the thread yesterday re Ireland was would they cop sh*t for voting no and yes they did. Some of the condesending bo**ox "we respect the Irish peoples choice ------- but" was and is outrageous. As i said the "Pan Eoropeans" would be saying "yes but Ireland is a tiny % of the people of Europe" they have and are already saying it.
The EEC is about what ? * Freedom of the individual ? to let you move about maybe , but only for economic reasons. * Open borders ? as above * Security ? plzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz see above dont make me laugh. * Defending ourselves ? yes if the UK troups fight and die they will. * Rights of the individual ? still laughing * Cheaper food ? sick joke. remember when we had mountains of food and they wouldnt even let the old folks have it. * We are the second largest payers into the EU slush fund, yet we are "the bad men of Europe". * We sign up 100% to everything. The Germans and Italians still operate some control over who comes in. The Italians didnt sign up to full Human Rights (4 scum bags) charter.
As we are the second biggest payer into this jollyup4europeans we should have bigger bollox and say well we aint gona do that and if you dont like it what you gona do ? Blockade the ports ? oooo yes those nice French peeps do that at a drop of a hat. Fine us ooooo yes as they did when the French still blockaded our meat , only thing is the French refused to pay.
They only care about our money , our armed forces and our economy , as to having a say on anything you dont count and you never did !
Pull out ? where to ? I say stay in and really be the BAD MAN they label us as. Fight for every penny as the French do. Say NO F**K OFF once in awhile.
PS note never read the Mail in me life and never brought the Express either.
The comments of McShane et al rather confirm the undemocratic nature of the EU project if anybody has any lingering doubts! Bear in mind both the French and Dutch people rejected the Lisbon Treaty when it was called the European Constitution last year!
Our next (perhaps last) hope is Stuart Wheeler's judicial review. Judgement has been reserved.
[cite]Posted By: Algarveaddick[/cite]
However, we are in a small minority, partly due to xenophobia, partly due to people believing what they read in the papers (when it suits them).
I don't know whether you entirely meant this Algarve, but your comment above seems to be saying that anyone who doesn't agree with your view on this subject is either xenophobic or an idiot for believing what they read in the papers.
Whatever my views are on all of this - and although I read the debates I generally choose to keep my thoughts to myself as this is supposed to be a Charlton message board - that comes across as a bit strong.
I don't know whether you entirely meant this Algarve, but your comment above seems to be saying that anyone who doesn't agree with your view on this subject is either xenophobic or an idiot for believing what they read in the papers.
You are right Off_It, it does come across like that, sorry not quite what I meant, what I meant was that a number of people are anti-European for those reasons, but i didn't mean that applied to everyone.
Lot of good points from GH, although a couple don't hold water - Moving about for economic reasons is a bit of a weak argument and UK signing up 100% for everything just ain't so.
Why would you rather be a Yank GH - because they don't "talk funny"? (Smiley winky thing)
The British have not signed up for "100% of everything" - Britain hasn't signed up either for the EMU or for the Euro for example, which is probably the most visible EU thing. The UK also hasn't signed up for the Schengen agreement, the EU Working Time laws (which limit the number of hours you work at 48/week), the Police and Judicial Co-operation in criminal matters and the Fundamental rights Charter.
When it comes to opting out most of the EU has accepted "100% of everything". Denmark and the UK have opted out of more EU laws/directives than any other EU nation.
"the uk have opted out of more directives than any other " !!!! so all those real good EU countries that pay f**k all in opt in for everything ! thats a real surprise . and "opting in" dont mean u pay a gnats dick to doing anything to comply to it does it ?
When the French said they would pay the "EU" fine for still banning our meat what actually happened?
we should be the hardest of hard ball when ANYTHING is discussed re EU. What they gona do kick us out lol lol lol who will pick up our "tab".
No one ever asked me if i wanted my taxs to go improve peoples living standards in Poland, Rumania, Hungary etc or to build the motor ways in portugal and REI.
When the French said they would pay the "EU" fine for still banning our meat what actually happened?
I'm presuming your question is rhetorical...
When the BSE crisis finally subsided and British beef was judged safe (it was after all unsafe to eat for awhile) the European Court of Justice ordered France to resume imports. France contested the ruling but had no alternative in the end but to comply. France now accepts British beef imports. Whether the French actually eat British beef is a moot point, and if not who can blame them?
[cite]Posted By: Maglor[/cite]Every country should have a referendum. What happened to democracy? The only option is to vote out your MP if they don't ask for a referendum.
True, but democracy works two ways and voters should/need to be clued up on subjects before voting on them. The Lisbon Treaty document weighs in at nearly 300 pages, I wonder how many people will read a summary of it, let alone the entire thing? Very few I'd imagine. Reading some of the comments here from the usual suspects - eg that Britain has adopted every EU law and France doesn't accept British beef, both are contrary to reality, so I'd say that the real problem is that very few people either understand the EU or are prepared to put their prejudices aside for long enough to make a considered objective opinion. Under such circumstances a referendum whether it results in a vote for or against, isn't the best way to proceed, and democracy isn't best served by subjective, ill-informed opinon making. So the EU needs to sell itself better.
And yes, I'm also concerned that too many newspaper proprietors like Rupert Murdoch will continue to slant their newspapers away from the EU for reasons that best suit their personal/commercial agendas.
I am not sure on what basis the other EU countries can push forward to ratify this treaty given, I thought, that all EU countries had to pass it into their respective laws and Ireland clearly can't do this? I am pro EU and pro this treaty but against back door unconstitutional deals which by pass the fact that not all countries have ratified. It is these kind of stitch ups that gives the EU a bad name.
There is so little positive discussion about the merits of the EU and so much EU legislation in this country has been "whipped through" without proper debate which engages the public, that the time has come for an "in or out" referendum so that the arguments for and against can be properly aired and the settled will of the British people can be fixed for the next 30 years or so. I would be in favour of some kind of fixed period of say 30 years once a referendum has been held so that our membership or lack of it cannot endlessly be discussed and people know we're either in or out for 30 years until another referendum at the end of that period.
And you of course have no prejudieces do you. never have a dig at the english or our history or make anything other than a negative point about the Uk you are the last bastion of the open mind, never hurl an insult , never a condesending comment when 3 will do. Said before your an old school socialist who cant see the fact that you are in fact a racist every thing English/british bad everything anti uk good.
[cite]Posted By: Goonerhater[/cite]And you of course have no prejudieces do you. never have a dig at the english or our history or make anything other than a negative point about the Uk you are the last bastion of the open mind, never hurl an insult , never a condesending comment when 3 will do. Said before your an old school socialist who cant see the fact that you are in fact a racist every thing English/british bad everything anti uk good.
You know GH sometimes it's better to keep your mouth closed and be thought a fool, than open it and remove all doubt.
[cite]Posted By: bingaddick[/cite]There is so little positive discussion about the merits of the EU and so much EU legislation in this country has been "whipped through" without proper debate which engages the public, that the time has come for an "in or out" referendum so that the arguments for and against can be properly aired and the settled will of the British people can be fixed for the next 30 years or so. I would be in favour of some kind of fixed period of say 30 years once a referendum has been held so that our membership or lack of it cannot endlessly be discussed and people know we're either in or out for 30 years until another referendum at the end of that period.
I'd agree with you on lack of discussion Bing. Those that hold political power and those that are in the media, never try to engage people in dialog about the real pros and cons of this or any other specific issues. Instead everyone tries to push their own narrow agenda for or against. In terms of discussing issues, all debate is forced down a blind alley around "is the EU a good or a bad thing". You are doing very well if you can find someone that is (or was) debating the contents of the treaty, especially here. Indeed, I seriously wonder if many people genuinely know what is in the treaty.
[cite]Posted By: Goonerhater[/cite] Said before your an old school socialist who cant see the fact that you are in fact a racist every thing English/british bad everything anti uk good.
I've carefully read everything BFR has written in this thread and I can't find anything in the slightest bit racist. I think that by making what appear to be unsubstantiated claims of racism you seriously undermine those that suffer from or struggle against real racism.
[cite]Posted By: Goonerhater[/cite]"the uk have opted out of more directives than any other " !!!! so all those real good EU countries that pay f**k all in opt in for everything ! thats a real surprise . and "opting in" dont mean u pay a gnats dick to doing anything to comply to it does it ?
When the French said they would pay the "EU" fine for still banning our meat what actually happened?
we should be the hardest of hard ball when ANYTHING is discussed re EU. What they gona do kick us out lol lol lol who will pick up our "tab".
No one ever asked me if i wanted my taxs to go improve peoples living standards in Poland, Rumania, Hungary etc or to build the motor ways in portugal and REI.
The bigger this club gets the less say you have.
A simple - "Sorry I was wrong about that" would have sufficed.
I'm a European and I like Europe. I like it's culture, food and history (all of which the UK of GB make as a huge contribution to other than Eurovison and Euro 2008)
Not quite so keen on all aspects of the EU but there you go. You can't have it all.
I like the US of A too. Great music, films, cities, etc etc.
We are european by definition of our location and history. The USA is generally isolationist in its economic policies and our "special relationship" if indeed it exists is not going to change that. Our natural trading partners are those that are closest and why we would want to ship frozen lamb from the other side of the world when we can by on our doorstep in europe seems like madness to me. As for a federalisation of europe, I can`t see whats intrinsically wrong with that. I would rather be a citizen of europe than a subject in Great Britain. Our laws are in reality no better than those of the French, Spanish, Germans etc. We have fewer rights here than most people think. No bill of rights or meaningful constitution. I look forward to the time when the UK joins the euro and make no mistake we will eventually.
[quote][cite]Posted By: ShootersHillGuru[/cite]We are european by definition of our location and history. The USA is generally isolationist in its economic policies and our "special relationship" if indeed it exists is not going to change that. Our natural trading partners are those that are closest and why we would want to ship frozen lamb from the other side of the world when we can by on our doorstep in europe seems like madness to me. As for a federalisation of europe, I can`t see whats intrinsically wrong with that. I would rather be a citizen of europe than a subject in Great Britain. Our laws are in reality no better than those of the French, Spanish, Germans etc. We have fewer rights here than most people think. No bill of rights or meaningful constitution. I look forward to the time when the UK joins the euro and make no mistake we will eventually.[/quote]
Although admittedly not well known we do have a Bill of Rights dating from 1689.
http://www.constitution.org/eng/eng_bor.htm
Just because our constitution is not written that does not make it not meaningful.
Our flexible unwritten constitution served this country very well indeed until quisling politicians signed over much of our decision making to the EU.
I believe I'm correct in saying that constitutionally the Houses of Parliament can still repeal the 1972 Communities Act in other words get us out of the EU in simple terms.
The Lisbon Treaty, European Constitution whatever would remove that right. There is a procedure for leaving which involves gaining the consent of other countries rather than acting unilaterally. Such a change should be putu to the people.
(sorry about the quote but links don't work in BB Code and I don't know how to quote and link properly at the same time!)
Good points Len but the problem is that we don`t live in 1689 or at the time when the Magna Carter was signed. We have to address the issues that confront us in the 21st century. I am sure that taxi drivers must carry a bale of hay at all times. Important once and never repealed but a total irrelevance to us now. In truth we don`t have as many personal rights as either the americans or many of our european neighbours because in the main their systems have been overhauled or introduced as a consequence of social upheaval. We need to do likewise.
[quote][cite]Posted By: ShootersHillGuru[/cite]Good points Len but the problem is that we don`t live in 1689 or at the time when the Magna Carter was signed. We have to address the issues that confront us in the 21st century. I am sure that taxi drivers must carry a bale of hay at all times. Important once and never repealed but a total irrelevance to us now. In truth we don`t have as many personal rights as either the americans or many of our european neighbours because in the main their systems have been overhauled or introduced as a consequence of social upheaval. We need to do likewise.[/quote]
The 1689 Bill of Rights has been (ab)used by The Speaker in 2008!
Comments
How about 'Massachussets East' as a state name? or, even better, what about 'Old England'?
Seriously, I'd rather be European than a yank any day of the week and, lets face it, the way things are going, sooner or later we'll have to choosie up sides. The days where a country our size could punch well above its weight are over (have been over for thirty odd years in fact) and the European economy is far, far more stable than the US one will ever be. The EU also, despite the utter bollocks that toilet paper like the Mail and Express print, has some pretty sensible legal policy - especially over things like the treatment of employees, fiscal responsibility of corporations and reigning in the power of supermarkets. Yes there are drawbacks, yes it would be very odd having to get used to different systems of local and national government and yes there would inevitably be some serious growing pains along the way. However, in the long run, I know who I would rather side with if it ever came down to a straight choice between the EU and the US.
However, for all that - and I guess wanting closer links with Europe probably puts me in a minority of one on this board - I agree with the points made about the fact that we aren't being given the referendum we were promised - that's a disgrace.
Keep the mad yanks as far away as possible, just visit California to realise how European we are!
However, we are in a small minority, partly due to xenophobia, partly due to people believing what they read in the papers (when it suits them). But as a believer in democracy, we should have that referendum, and the result would be a resounding "No", as it would be across Europe, and unlike the politicians, I would accept that.
It is a measure of the arrogance of politicians throughout the continent that France and Germany are saying press ahead regardless, and Barroso says there is still a way forward. They even want to break the rules that they make up in the first place!
No wonder the countrys up the swanny, if that's the calibre of politician at the helm.
Many of us are not anti European. We are however anti EU. Big, big difference.
The start of the thread yesterday re Ireland was would they cop sh*t for voting no and yes they did. Some of the condesending bo**ox "we respect the Irish peoples choice ------- but" was and is outrageous. As i said the "Pan Eoropeans" would be saying "yes but Ireland is a tiny % of the people of Europe" they have and are already saying it.
The EEC is about what ?
* Freedom of the individual ? to let you move about maybe , but only for economic reasons.
* Open borders ? as above
* Security ? plzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz see above dont make me laugh.
* Defending ourselves ? yes if the UK troups fight and die they will.
* Rights of the individual ? still laughing
* Cheaper food ? sick joke. remember when we had mountains of food and they wouldnt even let the old folks have it.
* We are the second largest payers into the EU slush fund, yet we are "the bad men of Europe".
* We sign up 100% to everything. The Germans and Italians still operate some control over who comes in. The Italians didnt sign up to full Human Rights (4 scum bags) charter.
As we are the second biggest payer into this jollyup4europeans we should have bigger bollox and say well we aint gona do that and if you dont like it what you gona do ? Blockade the ports ? oooo yes those nice French peeps do that at a drop of a hat. Fine us ooooo yes as they did when the French still blockaded our meat , only thing is the French refused to pay.
They only care about our money , our armed forces and our economy , as to having a say on anything you dont count and you never did !
Pull out ? where to ? I say stay in and really be the BAD MAN they label us as. Fight for every penny as the French do. Say NO F**K OFF once in awhile.
PS note never read the Mail in me life and never brought the Express either.
The comments of McShane et al rather confirm the undemocratic nature of the EU project if anybody has any lingering doubts! Bear in mind both the French and Dutch people rejected the Lisbon Treaty when it was called the European Constitution last year!
Our next (perhaps last) hope is Stuart Wheeler's judicial review. Judgement has been reserved.
http://eureferendum.blogspot.com/2008/06/stuart-wheeler.html
I don't know whether you entirely meant this Algarve, but your comment above seems to be saying that anyone who doesn't agree with your view on this subject is either xenophobic or an idiot for believing what they read in the papers.
Whatever my views are on all of this - and although I read the debates I generally choose to keep my thoughts to myself as this is supposed to be a Charlton message board - that comes across as a bit strong.
Probably wasn't entirely what you meant though.
You are right Off_It, it does come across like that, sorry not quite what I meant, what I meant was that a number of people are anti-European for those reasons, but i didn't mean that applied to everyone.
Lot of good points from GH, although a couple don't hold water - Moving about for economic reasons is a bit of a weak argument and UK signing up 100% for everything just ain't so.
Why would you rather be a Yank GH - because they don't "talk funny"? (Smiley winky thing)
When it comes to opting out most of the EU has accepted "100% of everything". Denmark and the UK have opted out of more EU laws/directives than any other EU nation.
When the French said they would pay the "EU" fine for still banning our meat what actually happened?
we should be the hardest of hard ball when ANYTHING is discussed re EU. What they gona do kick us out lol lol lol who will pick up our "tab".
No one ever asked me if i wanted my taxs to go improve peoples living standards in Poland, Rumania, Hungary etc or to build the motor ways in portugal and REI.
The bigger this club gets the less say you have.
I'm presuming your question is rhetorical...
When the BSE crisis finally subsided and British beef was judged safe (it was after all unsafe to eat for awhile) the European Court of Justice ordered France to resume imports. France contested the ruling but had no alternative in the end but to comply. France now accepts British beef imports. Whether the French actually eat British beef is a moot point, and if not who can blame them?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/2341997.stm
So, in essence the EU, via the ECJ forced France to accept British beef.
True, but democracy works two ways and voters should/need to be clued up on subjects before voting on them. The Lisbon Treaty document weighs in at nearly 300 pages, I wonder how many people will read a summary of it, let alone the entire thing? Very few I'd imagine. Reading some of the comments here from the usual suspects - eg that Britain has adopted every EU law and France doesn't accept British beef, both are contrary to reality, so I'd say that the real problem is that very few people either understand the EU or are prepared to put their prejudices aside for long enough to make a considered objective opinion. Under such circumstances a referendum whether it results in a vote for or against, isn't the best way to proceed, and democracy isn't best served by subjective, ill-informed opinon making. So the EU needs to sell itself better.
And yes, I'm also concerned that too many newspaper proprietors like Rupert Murdoch will continue to slant their newspapers away from the EU for reasons that best suit their personal/commercial agendas.
There is so little positive discussion about the merits of the EU and so much EU legislation in this country has been "whipped through" without proper debate which engages the public, that the time has come for an "in or out" referendum so that the arguments for and against can be properly aired and the settled will of the British people can be fixed for the next 30 years or so. I would be in favour of some kind of fixed period of say 30 years once a referendum has been held so that our membership or lack of it cannot endlessly be discussed and people know we're either in or out for 30 years until another referendum at the end of that period.
You know GH sometimes it's better to keep your mouth closed and be thought a fool, than open it and remove all doubt.
Lol ;-)
I'd agree with you on lack of discussion Bing. Those that hold political power and those that are in the media, never try to engage people in dialog about the real pros and cons of this or any other specific issues. Instead everyone tries to push their own narrow agenda for or against. In terms of discussing issues, all debate is forced down a blind alley around "is the EU a good or a bad thing". You are doing very well if you can find someone that is (or was) debating the contents of the treaty, especially here. Indeed, I seriously wonder if many people genuinely know what is in the treaty.
I've carefully read everything BFR has written in this thread and I can't find anything in the slightest bit racist. I think that by making what appear to be unsubstantiated claims of racism you seriously undermine those that suffer from or struggle against real racism.
A simple - "Sorry I was wrong about that" would have sufficed.
Not quite so keen on all aspects of the EU but there you go. You can't have it all.
I like the US of A too. Great music, films, cities, etc etc.
http://www.rogerhelmer.com/chirac.asp
Although admittedly not well known we do have a Bill of Rights dating from 1689.
http://www.constitution.org/eng/eng_bor.htm
Just because our constitution is not written that does not make it not meaningful.
Our flexible unwritten constitution served this country very well indeed until quisling politicians signed over much of our decision making to the EU.
I believe I'm correct in saying that constitutionally the Houses of Parliament can still repeal the 1972 Communities Act in other words get us out of the EU in simple terms.
The Lisbon Treaty, European Constitution whatever would remove that right. There is a procedure for leaving which involves gaining the consent of other countries rather than acting unilaterally. Such a change should be putu to the people.
(sorry about the quote but links don't work in BB Code and I don't know how to quote and link properly at the same time!)
The 1689 Bill of Rights has been (ab)used by The Speaker in 2008!
http://p10.hostingprod.com/@spyblog.org.uk/blog/foia/ogc_gateway_reviews_of_the_identity_cards_programme/
Link doesn't work but address works.