Personally I don't understand why a being would create a planet of people to judge and punish them.
Also don't get how a person could be the nastiest person in the world, but if they apologise God forgives them and they can live it up in heaven for eternity?!
If Jesus died for our sins, does that me if we don't sin he died for nothing?
As for the anti-evolution argument, how comes monkeys don't have different skin colours?
Hi Henry, I'm not a scientist, as you would have guessed, and I'm not pretending my post was scientific in any way.
I'm not a biblical creationist either but, as is certainly apparent, neither theory is a proven fact in the course of the total development of this planet - and I merely suggest that man's knowledge is not complete and other factors, presently dismissed, may yet come into play.
If perspective is changed, certain things seem more plausible than somehow trying to attempt making what is known fit the theory. So not feeling compelled to follow the dogma of mainstream thinking, I look around for other pieces of jigsaw.
I'm not saying evolution is something that doesn't exist - species certainly evolve within their own genus......but it doesn't appear to be the complete answer either - and to me, only part of the equation, begging new questions that science has yet to answer.
When the evolution theory is complete and incontrovertible, then please let me know.
[quote][cite]Posted By: Goonerhater[/cite]Henry the guy started the program in the class room and asking people to question .He actually said darwin was the reason he didnt believe in God.
i sorta guessed darwin was dead mate, didnt think being in a box in Westminster Abbey would actually do his tan much good.[/quote]
Well not if someone believed in ghosts or the afterlife it wouldn't : - )
Dawkin's said Darwin's book on evolution was one of the reasons he didn't believe in a God. That's Dawkins viewpoint and he's entitled to it.
Believing in a God or not believing in a God has nothing to do with good and evil. Theists and atheists are both equally capable of both IMHO
didnt say i believed in ghosts said my wife does 1,000 % and if you see her with the cutlery well better not to disagree , or the afterlife maybe get a lot closer alot quicker !
as i said true evil and true goodness is in people.
[cite]Posted By: Oggy Red[/cite]Hi Henry, I'm not a scientist, as you would have guessed, and I'm not pretending my post was scientific in any way.
I'm not a biblical creationist either but, as is certainly apparent, neither theory is a proven fact in the course of the total development of this planet - and I merely suggest that man's knowledge is not complete and other factors, presently dismissed, may yet come into play.
If perspective is changed, certain things seem more plausible than somehow trying to attempt making what is known fit the theory. So not feeling compelled to follow the dogma of mainstream thinking, I look around for other pieces of jigsaw.
I'm not saying evolution is something that doesn't exist - species certainly evolve within their own genus......but it doesn't appear to be the complete answer either - and to me, only part of the equation, begging new questions that science has yet to answer.
When the evolution theory is complete and incontrovertible, then please let me know.
Evolution exists and is true. It's not a theory it is incontrovertible fact.
it doesn't have complete answers because science rarely does. Science explains how things are not why they are in the philosophical sense.
It's like the Nasca lines in Peru that some people said couldn't be explained. Why would people draw huge pictures on the ground that they could not see? Some saw this as prove that God was an astronaut and that the lines were landing strips for space ships.
There was no evidence for this but it was a nice story. Lots of people believed it or at least liked to believe that it was unexplained and that the truth was out there.
Except as Carl Sagen said, why would a race of people who could navigate a space ship many light years across the galaxy need a flippin landing strip.
[cite]Posted By: Goonerhater[/cite]didnt say i believed in ghosts said my wife does 1,000 % and if you see her with the cutlery well better not to disagree , or the afterlife maybe get a lot closer alot quicker !
as i said true evil and true goodness is in people.
That's her view and she's free to believe that. I don't want those kitchen knives going into action on me : - )
And I totally agree. Good and evil is something in us as human beings.
Okay, Henry, nothing like a bit of healthy debate ......! ;o)
I said: "I'm not saying evolution is something that doesn't exist - species certainly evolve within their own genus......but it doesn't appear to be the complete answer either - and to me, only part of the equation, begging new questions that science has yet to answer."
You said: "Evolution exists and is true. It's not a theory it is incontrovertible fact."
To me, evolution appears as part of the answer.
Correct me if I'm wrong - but I get the impression that you consider it the complete answer in itself?
Maybe Carl Sagen is absolutely bang on.
But what if he's not?
[cite]Posted By: FOD[/cite]Personally I don't understand why a being would create a planet of people to judge and punish them.
That's a good question.
Doesn't sound much like the kind of God easy to get on with.
So perhaps it's not.
I'm not religious but it sounds to me like the God of the Old Testament is a very different character to the God of the New Testament.
The God of the OT sounds a bit of a megalomaniac warlord, all conquering, dictatorial, jealous ........ in fact very human.
Maybe it's the way church/religious overlords have adapted the scriptures over the years to suit their own purposes.
I'd never heard of him, Threadkiller, but curiosity killed the cat so just Googled him - Marcion of Sinope sounds very much his own man but had a huge following. I can't imagine many people thinking in the way I do ....! ;o)
My post above was just based on my own feelings and gut instinct, and was only meant as a tongue in cheek personal opinion.
So are the creationists correct or the evolutionists?
I suspect the truth, as always, is somewhere in between.
............
Hedging your bets oggy?
What we have is a "god of the gaps" theory, there are plenty of things we still don't understand about the nature of our existence which are slowly being discovered. Those things we don't understand are invariably put down to acts of god, then science comes along and offers a better explanation, and one backed up with facts and proof. Hence prior to Darwin the belief was that god had made us etc - the bible claims we were created in god's form or something similar. Evolution however has since proven that we evolved over millions of years - some say from the lung fish - into our present form, so we weren't created in god's form. There is enough evidence now for this to be a considerably more credible explanation than the old argument that a creationist god made us - give it a few more years and we'll unwrap a few more of the missing pieces. The more we discover about our existence, the more irrelevant becomes religion as a means of explaining it.
The question should really be that having disproven the biblical creationist theory why do people still believe in god? Is blind faith really that much stronger than scientifically backed knowledge?
Not hedging more bets, BFR ...... just feel neither theory offers the complete explanation.
I'm not discounting the evolution theory but perhaps it's only part of the answer ...... it certainly seems to have been given a helping hand somewhere along the line.
Man's advancement, for example, seems to have been fast forwarded at some point comparitively recently - which may go some way to explain why the logical evolution of man stops at the missing link, and then starts again with too many changes in too short a space of time.
So what is the explanation? Evolutionists are still scratching their heads over that one.
That 'man was created in God's image' surely refers to the spirit and intelligence of man - and not to be confused with physical image.
[cite]Posted By: Goonerhater[/cite]God exists
end of.
Science will one day explain everything, that still doesnt mean God dosnt exist.
He aint on the Net or in a book, he aint in a house or a building, but he is there 100%.
as said above its in FAITH not in material.
There aint no wish list like writing to Santa. Horrible stuff happens everyday. He is there tho.
No need for a "gender evaluation" either as he could be a woman but to me he is a male.
If god exists then you need to prove it...if you can't then all you have is blind faith, but without any factual evidence faith/belief isn't enough.
We have "god" because a couple of thousand years ago a bunch of religious fruitcakes in sandals sat around trying to work out a way to scare shepherds into believing them and giving them money. Sadly it's in our human nature to explain things we don't understand as being the work of a deity, we humans aren't as perfect as we would like to think we are and who knows, maybe one day evolution will do for conceit what it has done for creationism.
You might as well worship the sun, at least that exists and without it all life would cease to exist. But worshiping invisible non-existent entities or even the sun is no way to drive human knowledge forward.
I have no intention of prooving F**K all to you. You dont belive in God your choice. I do. I have no problem with the total logic of science etc what i do have a problem with is people telling me my faith (not religion) is wrong.
You need to get a flight (ill pay) to Mecca get off the plane and make sure you tell all you meet God dosnt exist .
Its faith mine and mine alone your total arogance it truely stunning " I have to prove he exists" to a net wibble like you , dont make me laugh .
Well, I wouldn't want to p*ss on any ones's parade, so if a man has faith in his religion, then he's absolutely entitled.
Might as well stick my neck out here - but I'm of the opinion that spirituality and religion are not necessarily the same thing.
Perhaps they can be, but my instinct tells me that spirituality is your own personal connection ....oh, I can't explain it but like GH says, it is there. You only have to let your mind go into neutral in your normal day to day world, while perhaps washing up, weeding the garden, driving, daydreaming ........
Wasn't that behind how Thomas Edison developed his version of the electric lamp?
And in matters of faith or bereavement, there are many accounts of the unexplained from which people have derived much learning and comfort.
Many people are dismissive because their own experience hasn't touched these worlds within - and quote the mantra of what can only be proven by man scientifically.
Definition of an expert? One who knows more and more, about less and less.
Our planet is just an insignificant pin prick of light in a teeming universe. If we believe that with our own knowledge of science, that everything not so far proven to us therefore doesn't exist - then we truly have our head up our own arse.
[cite]Posted By: BlackForestReds[/cite]We have "god" because a couple of thousand years ago a bunch of religious fruitcakes in sandals sat around trying to work out a way to scare shepherds into believing them and giving them money. Sadly it's in our human nature to explain things we don't understand as being the work of a deity, we humans aren't as perfect as we would like to think we are and who knows, maybe one day evolution will do for conceit what it has done for creationism.
I read something a year or so back that suggested we were 'genetically programmed' towards a belief in God. The general thrust of the peices was that you could argue that as proof of God as any Deity would be stupid not to include this kind of failesafe, or to argue for evolution as a beleif in a higher power helps the species, as it means people are predisposed to work for a common good which helps prolong their existence.
Personally speaking I have no problem with a belief in God, on some levels it is no more unbelievable than the big bang theory (although that may change in the next few years). It is a belief in organised religion that I have an issue with.
Man's advancement, for example, seems to have been fast forwarded at some point comparitively recently - which may go some way to explain why the logical evolution of man stops at the missing link, and then starts again with too many changes in too short a space of time.
.................
The assumption is that evolution works to a gradual time frame - it doesn't, it depends on a number of factors - environment, climate, genetic mutation, loss of predators and the existence of predators etc. The Cambrian explosion (ca 600 m years ago) which lasted for the better part of the next 100 m years saw an explosion in the number of organisms and their complexity (both fauna and flora) at a much faster rate than either before or after.
There are still significant gaps in our knowledge but they are gradually being filled in. With the religious argument there are no gaps - just the blanket explanation that god created everything, although some argue that evolution kicked off from that point, or that god invented the history and complexity of life as some kind of test. Again I'm drawn back to evolution as the logical explanation.
To explain the early life of the planet from a scientific perspective I recommend:
Richard Fortey is a paleontologist - working at the Natural History Museum. It's a fact based book that goes nowhere near any of the religious/philosophical arguments, because it doesn't need to, yet it renders the religious arguments pretty much obsolete. Then you have the proven Pangaea theory- continental drift etc - something else that religion fails to acknowledge explain...
All these things and all these discoveries are totally consistent - there are some gaps in our knowledge, but there are fewer than there once were but nothing once it has been discovered is inconsistent with any other discovery.
And if you want info on transitional fossils - this is a good starting point:
If you've read my posts, BFR, you would've seen that I'm not doubting that evolution hasn't happened ........it evidently has.
But I'm not convinced that there hasn't been other factors, that have influenced or interupted the course of evolution.
There's too much unexplained, too many inconsistancies in the one size fits all evolution theory.
I read something a year or so back that suggested we were 'genetically programmed' towards a belief in God.
................
That may be true, it would appear that we like to use god as some kind of comfort blanket - but we are drifting into the realms of cognitive science and behaviour not explaining if god exists. If you believe that we are genetically programmed to believe in religion then there is an irony attached - as it must be something that we evolved on the way.
The simplest explanation is that belief is not so much the default position for the human mind but something that takes no cognitive effort to comprehend. It's something that is taught, it's comforting - all religions project the same meme - behave yourself, stay loyal, obey that particular faith and you'll enjoy eternity. Even in buddhism, which has no creator god, they preach that you'll be reincarnated to a higher form of being and awareness. Therefore it's a theory that does no harm to us and allows us to feel good about ourselves. For that look at the holier than thou members of our society - especially those that commit crime in the name of their religion. What inspired the London bombers and the Sept 11 hijackers was a belief that in their heaven they would be rewarded for their sacrifice. A christian fundamentalist who blew up an abortion clinic and killed someone (in Florida) and was subsequently executed went to his death saying that he didn't care - Jesus approved of his actions and was waiting for him. Religion succeeds because it preaches some level of comfort, but only to believers and it doesn't take much effort to believe.
[cite]Posted By: Oggy Red[/cite]If you've read my posts, BFR, you would've seen that I'm not doubting that evolution hasn't happened ........it evidently has.
But I'm not convinced that there hasn't been other factors, that have influenced or interupted the course of evolution.
There's too much unexplained, too many inconsistancies in the one size fits all evolution theory.
I appreciate that you do not doubt evolution - just that I see no evidence for god having an influence on the process - in fact the more I read about evolution the more I can appreciate that evolution supplies the answers. It isn't a linear process and does makes a few jumps, but that is because there are things we haven't yet discovered or cannot adequately explain. Look at this way - when Darwin wrote the "Origin of Species" there were many more gaps in our knowledge, yet in the intervening 150 years we've filled in many of the gaps, who's to say what the total sum of our knowledge will be in another 150 years?
I shouldn't confuse religion with spirituality, BFR. They're are not necessarily the same thing.
The Christian Fundamentalist who was executed is not typical of Christians worldwide - he was just an extremist full of hate. Same as extremists of every denomination, nation, politics or even maybe evolutionists ....? ;o)
faith -- belief dosnt take much effort ? what bolloxxx.
You read it in a book therefore it is .you READ IT, must be true u read it on WWW.Knobhead.com
FAITH is just that and to say to a World of believers "it dosnt take much effort" is just what i would expect from you.
Science says a bumble bee cant fly ooooooooooooooooooooooo ill just go let the ones know in the garden.
Faith aint in a book, or a building, its not seeable, or an 10 foot long equation, its not on the net. U dont believe not really a problem --- get off my cloud !!
[cite]Posted By: Oggy Red[/cite]If you've read my posts, BFR, you would've seen that I'm not doubting that evolution hasn't happened ........it evidently has.
But I'm not convinced that there hasn't been other factors, that have influenced or interupted the course of evolution.
There's too much unexplained, too many inconsistancies in the one size fits all evolution theory.
I appreciate that you do not doubt evolution - just that I see no evidence for god having an influence on the process - in fact the more I read about evolution the more I can appreciate that evolution supplies the answers.
It all depends on who you think the God of creation as mentioned in Genesis, really is?
To me, he sounds very human like - let alone referred to in the plural in Genesis. So maybe there was more than one god, maybe reference to beings other than the omniprescent?
In fact, with advances of knowledge and technology, man today would be more or less capable either now or in the foreseeable future of undertaking 'creation' as outlined in Genesis and written documents from ancient civilisations.
Some of the knowledge and indeed science that the ancients posessed was far in advance of what we'd expect of primitive townships and nomadic shepherds, don't you agree?
We assume man, civilisation and science is so far at the pinnacle of progression today.
What if it's all been done before and it's second time around?
Science says a bumble bee cant fly ooooooooooooooooooooooo ill just go let the ones know in the garden.
Faith aint in a book, or a building, its not seeable, or an 10 foot long equation, its not on the net. U dont believe not really a problem --- get off my cloud !!
BFR, you put your point across in your own way ......don't you think GH is putting his point across in his own way, too?
And why not?
A number of people on this thread have discussed their points open mindedly.
Have you?
Not that it matters - each of us on here are entitled to their own opinion.
Same as you.
Faith dosnt take much effort explain oooo guru of the WWW
u have in your last few post just slatted anyone with faith
how about you prooving to me and aprox 2billion believes that God dosnt exist ?
mmmmmmmmmmmmmmm waits for BFR to press various buttons to see is someone else has actually written anything about this on the net.
Go on take a real leap of errrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr FAITH and come out with ur own thought not some one elses.
Ps BFR what is it fella ? Is it that although i have dislexia i have a degree ? or have worked in some very high profile positions ? or get asked to help / work all over the World ? or i have paid for my house already ? or the fact i have actually had a life? must be something there i know ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- your jealous mate aint u !!!! lol ur jealous of little old Kidbrooke GH ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh no worries mate someone has to sit in a pair of old boxers in front of a PC looking at the net all day -- i mean we cant all have a life !!
PSS look up humour and humility while your at it you might just learn something.
[cite]Posted By: Goonerhater[/cite]Science says a bumble bee cant fly ooooooooooooooooooooooo ill just go let the ones know in the garden.
Using a science myth from the 30's is not the best way to make your argument. Nor is asking someone to prove that something does not exist.
I agree that faith is a very difficult thing to have, I am envious of those that have it. That does not mean I have to agree with what you have faith in.
this is an interesting discussion but as is always likely it has begun to degenerate into something else.
This site purports to come up with some scientific evidence to disprove or at least question Darwin's theory.
As somebody who obtained science "O" level at the lowest pass grade before many of you were born I make no claim to argue with any great authority on the scientific aspects.
However it has been proved beyond reasonable doubt that planks of argument like "Piltdown Man" have been shown to be fraudulent yet none of the "Pro Darwin lobby" have addressed such issues. Furthermore although Darwin speaks of EVOLUTION of life to the best of my knowledge he does not address ORIGIN of life which leaves a major unanswered question.
My own position for what it is worth is that there is undeniably a force presently beyond human understanding that created the earth. I'm happy for simplicity to refer to that unknown force as "God" as are Christians, Muslims, and Jews. Other religions refer to gods as opposed to God but the meaning is the same. They understand and respect (worship) something beyond their understanding.
Very hard to properly address such deep issues in a few lines on a messageboard.
Comments
Also don't get how a person could be the nastiest person in the world, but if they apologise God forgives them and they can live it up in heaven for eternity?!
If Jesus died for our sins, does that me if we don't sin he died for nothing?
As for the anti-evolution argument, how comes monkeys don't have different skin colours?
i sorta guessed darwin was dead mate, didnt think being in a box in Westminster Abbey would actually do his tan much good.
I'm not a biblical creationist either but, as is certainly apparent, neither theory is a proven fact in the course of the total development of this planet - and I merely suggest that man's knowledge is not complete and other factors, presently dismissed, may yet come into play.
If perspective is changed, certain things seem more plausible than somehow trying to attempt making what is known fit the theory. So not feeling compelled to follow the dogma of mainstream thinking, I look around for other pieces of jigsaw.
I'm not saying evolution is something that doesn't exist - species certainly evolve within their own genus......but it doesn't appear to be the complete answer either - and to me, only part of the equation, begging new questions that science has yet to answer.
When the evolution theory is complete and incontrovertible, then please let me know.
i sorta guessed darwin was dead mate, didnt think being in a box in Westminster Abbey would actually do his tan much good.[/quote]
Well not if someone believed in ghosts or the afterlife it wouldn't : - )
Dawkin's said Darwin's book on evolution was one of the reasons he didn't believe in a God. That's Dawkins viewpoint and he's entitled to it.
Believing in a God or not believing in a God has nothing to do with good and evil. Theists and atheists are both equally capable of both IMHO
as i said true evil and true goodness is in people.
Evolution exists and is true. It's not a theory it is incontrovertible fact.
it doesn't have complete answers because science rarely does. Science explains how things are not why they are in the philosophical sense.
It's like the Nasca lines in Peru that some people said couldn't be explained. Why would people draw huge pictures on the ground that they could not see? Some saw this as prove that God was an astronaut and that the lines were landing strips for space ships.
There was no evidence for this but it was a nice story. Lots of people believed it or at least liked to believe that it was unexplained and that the truth was out there.
Except as Carl Sagen said, why would a race of people who could navigate a space ship many light years across the galaxy need a flippin landing strip.
That's her view and she's free to believe that. I don't want those kitchen knives going into action on me : - )
And I totally agree. Good and evil is something in us as human beings.
I said: "I'm not saying evolution is something that doesn't exist - species certainly evolve within their own genus......but it doesn't appear to be the complete answer either - and to me, only part of the equation, begging new questions that science has yet to answer."
You said: "Evolution exists and is true. It's not a theory it is incontrovertible fact."
To me, evolution appears as part of the answer.
Correct me if I'm wrong - but I get the impression that you consider it the complete answer in itself?
Maybe Carl Sagen is absolutely bang on.
But what if he's not?
I doubt if he knows for sure.
That's a good question.
Doesn't sound much like the kind of God easy to get on with.
So perhaps it's not.
I'm not religious but it sounds to me like the God of the Old Testament is a very different character to the God of the New Testament.
The God of the OT sounds a bit of a megalomaniac warlord, all conquering, dictatorial, jealous ........ in fact very human.
Maybe it's the way church/religious overlords have adapted the scriptures over the years to suit their own purposes.
It has been known, you know.
My post above was just based on my own feelings and gut instinct, and was only meant as a tongue in cheek personal opinion.
So not meaning to upset anyone. Sorry if I have.
I suspect the truth, as always, is somewhere in between.
............
Hedging your bets oggy?
What we have is a "god of the gaps" theory, there are plenty of things we still don't understand about the nature of our existence which are slowly being discovered. Those things we don't understand are invariably put down to acts of god, then science comes along and offers a better explanation, and one backed up with facts and proof. Hence prior to Darwin the belief was that god had made us etc - the bible claims we were created in god's form or something similar. Evolution however has since proven that we evolved over millions of years - some say from the lung fish - into our present form, so we weren't created in god's form. There is enough evidence now for this to be a considerably more credible explanation than the old argument that a creationist god made us - give it a few more years and we'll unwrap a few more of the missing pieces. The more we discover about our existence, the more irrelevant becomes religion as a means of explaining it.
The question should really be that having disproven the biblical creationist theory why do people still believe in god? Is blind faith really that much stronger than scientifically backed knowledge?
And anyone see the programme? Any thoughts?
Science will one day explain everything, that still doesnt mean God dosnt exist.
He aint on the Net or in a book, he aint in a house or a building, but he is there 100%.
as said above its in FAITH not in material.
There aint no wish list like writing to Santa. Horrible stuff happens everyday. He is there tho.
No need for a "gender evaluation" either as he could be a woman but to me he is a male.
I'm not discounting the evolution theory but perhaps it's only part of the answer ...... it certainly seems to have been given a helping hand somewhere along the line.
Man's advancement, for example, seems to have been fast forwarded at some point comparitively recently - which may go some way to explain why the logical evolution of man stops at the missing link, and then starts again with too many changes in too short a space of time.
So what is the explanation? Evolutionists are still scratching their heads over that one.
That 'man was created in God's image' surely refers to the spirit and intelligence of man - and not to be confused with physical image.
If god exists then you need to prove it...if you can't then all you have is blind faith, but without any factual evidence faith/belief isn't enough.
We have "god" because a couple of thousand years ago a bunch of religious fruitcakes in sandals sat around trying to work out a way to scare shepherds into believing them and giving them money. Sadly it's in our human nature to explain things we don't understand as being the work of a deity, we humans aren't as perfect as we would like to think we are and who knows, maybe one day evolution will do for conceit what it has done for creationism.
You might as well worship the sun, at least that exists and without it all life would cease to exist. But worshiping invisible non-existent entities or even the sun is no way to drive human knowledge forward.
You need to get a flight (ill pay) to Mecca get off the plane and make sure you tell all you meet God dosnt exist .
Its faith mine and mine alone your total arogance it truely stunning " I have to prove he exists" to a net wibble like you , dont make me laugh .
Might as well stick my neck out here - but I'm of the opinion that spirituality and religion are not necessarily the same thing.
Perhaps they can be, but my instinct tells me that spirituality is your own personal connection ....oh, I can't explain it but like GH says, it is there. You only have to let your mind go into neutral in your normal day to day world, while perhaps washing up, weeding the garden, driving, daydreaming ........
Wasn't that behind how Thomas Edison developed his version of the electric lamp?
And in matters of faith or bereavement, there are many accounts of the unexplained from which people have derived much learning and comfort.
Many people are dismissive because their own experience hasn't touched these worlds within - and quote the mantra of what can only be proven by man scientifically.
Definition of an expert? One who knows more and more, about less and less.
Our planet is just an insignificant pin prick of light in a teeming universe. If we believe that with our own knowledge of science, that everything not so far proven to us therefore doesn't exist - then we truly have our head up our own arse.
I read something a year or so back that suggested we were 'genetically programmed' towards a belief in God. The general thrust of the peices was that you could argue that as proof of God as any Deity would be stupid not to include this kind of failesafe, or to argue for evolution as a beleif in a higher power helps the species, as it means people are predisposed to work for a common good which helps prolong their existence.
Personally speaking I have no problem with a belief in God, on some levels it is no more unbelievable than the big bang theory (although that may change in the next few years). It is a belief in organised religion that I have an issue with.
.................
The assumption is that evolution works to a gradual time frame - it doesn't, it depends on a number of factors - environment, climate, genetic mutation, loss of predators and the existence of predators etc. The Cambrian explosion (ca 600 m years ago) which lasted for the better part of the next 100 m years saw an explosion in the number of organisms and their complexity (both fauna and flora) at a much faster rate than either before or after.
There are still significant gaps in our knowledge but they are gradually being filled in. With the religious argument there are no gaps - just the blanket explanation that god created everything, although some argue that evolution kicked off from that point, or that god invented the history and complexity of life as some kind of test. Again I'm drawn back to evolution as the logical explanation.
To explain the early life of the planet from a scientific perspective I recommend:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Life-Unauthorized-Biography-R-Fortey/dp/000638420X
Richard Fortey is a paleontologist - working at the Natural History Museum. It's a fact based book that goes nowhere near any of the religious/philosophical arguments, because it doesn't need to, yet it renders the religious arguments pretty much obsolete. Then you have the proven Pangaea theory- continental drift etc - something else that religion fails to acknowledge explain...
All these things and all these discoveries are totally consistent - there are some gaps in our knowledge, but there are fewer than there once were but nothing once it has been discovered is inconsistent with any other discovery.
And if you want info on transitional fossils - this is a good starting point:
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-transitional.html
It may be that one day we'll find the missing link, but if we don't, it doesn't invalidate evolution.
But I'm not convinced that there hasn't been other factors, that have influenced or interupted the course of evolution.
There's too much unexplained, too many inconsistancies in the one size fits all evolution theory.
................
That may be true, it would appear that we like to use god as some kind of comfort blanket - but we are drifting into the realms of cognitive science and behaviour not explaining if god exists. If you believe that we are genetically programmed to believe in religion then there is an irony attached - as it must be something that we evolved on the way.
The simplest explanation is that belief is not so much the default position for the human mind but something that takes no cognitive effort to comprehend. It's something that is taught, it's comforting - all religions project the same meme - behave yourself, stay loyal, obey that particular faith and you'll enjoy eternity. Even in buddhism, which has no creator god, they preach that you'll be reincarnated to a higher form of being and awareness. Therefore it's a theory that does no harm to us and allows us to feel good about ourselves. For that look at the holier than thou members of our society - especially those that commit crime in the name of their religion. What inspired the London bombers and the Sept 11 hijackers was a belief that in their heaven they would be rewarded for their sacrifice. A christian fundamentalist who blew up an abortion clinic and killed someone (in Florida) and was subsequently executed went to his death saying that he didn't care - Jesus approved of his actions and was waiting for him. Religion succeeds because it preaches some level of comfort, but only to believers and it doesn't take much effort to believe.
I appreciate that you do not doubt evolution - just that I see no evidence for god having an influence on the process - in fact the more I read about evolution the more I can appreciate that evolution supplies the answers. It isn't a linear process and does makes a few jumps, but that is because there are things we haven't yet discovered or cannot adequately explain. Look at this way - when Darwin wrote the "Origin of Species" there were many more gaps in our knowledge, yet in the intervening 150 years we've filled in many of the gaps, who's to say what the total sum of our knowledge will be in another 150 years?
The Christian Fundamentalist who was executed is not typical of Christians worldwide - he was just an extremist full of hate. Same as extremists of every denomination, nation, politics or even maybe evolutionists ....? ;o)
You read it in a book therefore it is .you READ IT, must be true u read it on WWW.Knobhead.com
FAITH is just that and to say to a World of believers "it dosnt take much effort" is just what i would expect from you.
Science says a bumble bee cant fly ooooooooooooooooooooooo ill just go let the ones know in the garden.
Faith aint in a book, or a building, its not seeable, or an 10 foot long equation, its not on the net. U dont believe not really a problem --- get off my cloud !!
It all depends on who you think the God of creation as mentioned in Genesis, really is?
To me, he sounds very human like - let alone referred to in the plural in Genesis. So maybe there was more than one god, maybe reference to beings other than the omniprescent?
In fact, with advances of knowledge and technology, man today would be more or less capable either now or in the foreseeable future of undertaking 'creation' as outlined in Genesis and written documents from ancient civilisations.
Some of the knowledge and indeed science that the ancients posessed was far in advance of what we'd expect of primitive townships and nomadic shepherds, don't you agree?
We assume man, civilisation and science is so far at the pinnacle of progression today.
What if it's all been done before and it's second time around?
I ask for proof and GH replies with a barely literate rant...
Plus ca change...
BFR, you put your point across in your own way ......don't you think GH is putting his point across in his own way, too?
And why not?
A number of people on this thread have discussed their points open mindedly.
Have you?
Not that it matters - each of us on here are entitled to their own opinion.
Same as you.
Other than that, it's been a good debate.
u have in your last few post just slatted anyone with faith
how about you prooving to me and aprox 2billion believes that God dosnt exist ?
mmmmmmmmmmmmmmm waits for BFR to press various buttons to see is someone else has actually written anything about this on the net.
Go on take a real leap of errrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr FAITH and come out with ur own thought not some one elses.
Ps BFR what is it fella ?
Is it that although i have dislexia i have a degree ? or have worked in some very high profile positions ? or get asked to help / work all over the World ? or i have paid for my house already ? or the fact i have actually had a life?
must be something there i know ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- your jealous mate aint u !!!! lol ur jealous of little old Kidbrooke GH ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh no worries mate someone has to sit in a pair of old boxers in front of a PC looking at the net all day -- i mean we cant all have a life !!
PSS look up humour and humility while your at it you might just learn something.
Using a science myth from the 30's is not the best way to make your argument. Nor is asking someone to prove that something does not exist.
I agree that faith is a very difficult thing to have, I am envious of those that have it. That does not mean I have to agree with what you have faith in.
this is an interesting discussion but as is always likely it has begun to degenerate into something else.
This site purports to come up with some scientific evidence to disprove or at least question Darwin's theory.
As somebody who obtained science "O" level at the lowest pass grade before many of you were born I make no claim to argue with any great authority on the scientific aspects.
However it has been proved beyond reasonable doubt that planks of argument like "Piltdown Man" have been shown to be fraudulent yet none of the "Pro Darwin lobby" have addressed such issues. Furthermore although Darwin speaks of EVOLUTION of life to the best of my knowledge he does not address ORIGIN of life which leaves a major unanswered question.
My own position for what it is worth is that there is undeniably a force presently beyond human understanding that created the earth. I'm happy for simplicity to refer to that unknown force as "God" as are Christians, Muslims, and Jews. Other religions refer to gods as opposed to God but the meaning is the same. They understand and respect (worship) something beyond their understanding.
Very hard to properly address such deep issues in a few lines on a messageboard.