Personally i don't get upset when we don't progress in the international arena but John Terry, Ashley Cole, Stephen Gerrard, Micheal Owen are the four i can think of off the top of my head that came through the top 4 academies in the past 10 years... Thats 4 players that would get into any national squad in the world.
Count in the other internationals that they have produced like Clichy, Fletcher, Denilson and i don't think that they'll be packing up the academies anytime soon. Wenger apparently has an outstanding crop of English players coming through the Arsenal academy now.
Besides what does it matter which academy they come through? The fact they are playing for the top 4 sides surely suggests they are the best of bunch, regardless of whether they played at West Ham or Everton between the ages of 12-17
I've seen a few reserve games of Arsenal on tele, the back end of last season and they have got a few good English players coming through, one kid in particular Jack Wiltshere who's 16 looks superb. I think he's been on the bench for them a couple of times already this season.
[cite]Posted By: T[/cite]Besides what does it matter which academy they come through? The fact they are playing for the top 4 sides surely suggests they are the best of bunch, regardless of whether they played at West Ham or Everton between the ages of 12-17
I think the point that's being made is that the 'big 4' don't directly service the English national team
The wider issue to consider is what is more important?
a) The development of players to make a league club successful
b) The development of players to make an international club successful
Unfortunately, at the moment it is a) and until the FA/UEFA/FIFA implement stricter rules for league games as well as European ones then things will never change. Something the 7 subs rule has undoubtedly been put in place for so that x number of Englishmen can sit on the bench.
Sorry but David Bentley hasn't "made it" - he 's played in 7 Internationals the vast majority of which are as subs. It rather says it all that our Manager prefers Beckham.
As for the others I probably didn't make myself clear. All those quoted I think you'll find they are nearer 30 than 25 which is why I said "in the last 10 years" i.e. who have those Clubs got that are currenty a regular in their squad who came through the ranks and are English qualified and good enough. The answer is a big fat zero.
So, that begs the question - why have an Academy at all?
It's a bit like 'keepers - I remember the time when we had 3 or 4 world class keepers. Now the top Teams wither won't blood them or don't keep them. Is that really 'cos they aren't good enough or because they are constantly striving for the finished article? Man City have Hart at the moment but with the money what's the chances he loses his place come January to a foreign International?
[quote][cite]Posted By: Chunes[/cite]Top prem clubs don't need their own academies. They can just scout other youth matches and pick the players up for 500k. Yay Defoe![/quote]
Hmmmmmm, if it wasn't for the likes of Lampard jn, Carrick, J Cole, Ferdinand I'd agree with that comment
[cite]Posted By: Chunes[/cite]Top prem clubs don't need their own academies. They can just scout other youth matches and pick the players up for 500k. Yay Defoe!
Hmmmmmm, if it wasn't for the likes of Lampard jn, Carrick, J Cole, Ferdinand I'd agree with that comment
I still don't understand why it matters? If they play for the Big 4 surely they are the best of the bunch and the top 4 are directly servicing the National side by suppling their players for the national team?
England failed to qualify for major tournments in 1972, 1974, 1976, 1978 and 1994 and i'm pretty sure that in those days the youth system of the entire first divison churned out a lot more English qualified players than they are now. So what you're asking Addick Addict is which players are coming through the top 4 academies that will be playing for England in future? In which case i have no idea as i don't know their academy sides!
I'm very much of the opinion that players find their level and cream rises. If Joe Hart is not as good as a foreign keeper then he doesn't play, and at the same time why would England want to pick a player that isn't as good as a foreign player in his position? He might have to drop down to a smaller club to learn his trade and improve as the likes of Carson, James, Kirkland have all done in their careers. Yes you might have a smaller pool to pick from than in past years but the overall quality is much much higher than before...
This was actually my very first discussion some six years ago now. A lot of water under the bridge since then but it is interesting to look at how many players the big five (I think we need to make it "five" now as Man City have to be included alongside Liverpool, Man Utd, Chelsea and Arsenal) produced and how well have England done as a result?
Looking at the players who have played for England in the last 12 months (and ignoring those now retired) I have come made up the below list (the player's first Club followed by current Club in brackets):
Joe Hart - Shrewsbury (Man City) Fraser Forster - Newcastle (Southampton) Ben Foster - Stoke (W B A) John Ruddy - Cambridge United (Norwich)
Phil Jagielka - Sheffield United (Everton) Gary Cahill - Aston Villa (Chelsea) Leighton Baines - Wigan (Everton) Phil Jones - Blackburn (Man Utd) John Stones - Barnsley (Everton) Calum Chambers - Southampton (Arsenal) Danny Rose - Leeds (Spurs) Glen Johnson - West Ham (Liverpool) Chris Smalling - Maidstone United (Man Utd) Luke Shaw - Southampton (Man Utd) Kyle Walker - Sheffield United (Spurs) Jon Flanagan - Liverpool (Liverpool) Kyle Walker - Sheffield United (Spurs) Steven Caulker - Spurs (Q P R) Kieran Gibbs - Wimbledon (Arsenal)
James Millner - Leeds (Man City) Jack Wilshere - Arsenal (Arsenal) Ales Oxlade-Chamberlain - Southampton (Arsenal) Jordan Henderson - Sunderland (Liverpool) Andros Townsend - Spurs (Spurs) Fabian Delph - Bradford City (Aston Villa) Ross Barkley - Everton (Everton) Adam Lallana - Southampton (Liverpool) Michael Carrick - West Ham (Man Utd) Tom Cleverley - Man Utd (Aston Villa) Ashley Young - Watford (Man Utd)
Raheem Sterling - Q P R (Liverpool) Theo Walcott - Southampton (Arsenal) Wayne Rooney - Everton (Man Utd) Danny Welbeck - Man Utd (Arsenal) Daniel Sturridge - Man City (Liverpool) Rickie Lambert - Liverpool (Liverpool) Jermain Defoe - Charlton (Toronto) Andy Carroll - Newcastle (West Ham) Jay Rodriquez - Burnley (Southampton)
That's 41 players in total and just six who started at a top five Club. Of those six, Flanagan has just one cap, Rickie Lambert (originally released without kicking a ball for Liverpool) is unlikely to feature too much in the future and Tom Cleverley's days may well be numbered too.
That leaves us with just Sturridge, Welbeck and Wilshere actually produced by a top five Club and a regular in the England squad. Wilshere is, of course, the only one of those still at his first club. And Sturridge and Welbeck left those Clubs in order to find first team football.
So Wilshere is the only member who is a regular member of the England squad who is still at his original Club.
And from that 41 our most likely PL Champions, Chelsea, have produced not one player - despite currently having a massive playing squad and no less than 26 players on loan!
Has that stat affected our ability to perform at the top? Well our performance at the World Cup would certainly suggest that it has.
But, perhaps, I should go back to my original question - why do Chelsea, Man United, Man City, Liverpool and Arsenal even bother throwing money at having an academy, certainly for anything earlier than say the age of Under 16?
It must cost them millions in terms of coaching, equipment etc etc to fund from ages Under 8 upwards which the above statistics rather prove it's money somewhat wasted.
Interesting research. I think you should send it any academy player who starts getting their head turned by the bigger clubs.
In relation to why do they bother, the academies of the top 4 must almost be self sustaining financially. They are now able to attract the cream of the crop when it comes to young prosprects from all around Europe. If some category 2 or 3 team has a young starlet then they can now legitmately take them as their own (re: Kadell Daniel). When they reach 18, they send them out on loan where their wages are paid for and in some cases will receive a fee, then when they reach 22 and realise they are not willing to gamble on putting them in their first team, they sell them to a Championship club for £2 or £3 million, take Henri Lansbury.
Chelsea are already doing this on mass. They currently have 26 players on loan around Europe. I wouldn't mind betting that none of those kids will ever see the first team. They are already recieving an income from the loaning teams and when the time is right they will recoup upwards of £30 million from selling those 26 players!
Comments
ashley cole
wes brown
to name but 3
cringe!
Not enough, but there are still players there who have "made it"
Count in the other internationals that they have produced like Clichy, Fletcher, Denilson and i don't think that they'll be packing up the academies anytime soon. Wenger apparently has an outstanding crop of English players coming through the Arsenal academy now.
Besides what does it matter which academy they come through? The fact they are playing for the top 4 sides surely suggests they are the best of bunch, regardless of whether they played at West Ham or Everton between the ages of 12-17
a) The development of players to make a league club successful
b) The development of players to make an international club successful
Unfortunately, at the moment it is a) and until the FA/UEFA/FIFA implement stricter rules for league games as well as European ones then things will never change. Something the 7 subs rule has undoubtedly been put in place for so that x number of Englishmen can sit on the bench.
As for the others I probably didn't make myself clear. All those quoted I think you'll find they are nearer 30 than 25 which is why I said "in the last 10 years" i.e. who have those Clubs got that are currenty a regular in their squad who came through the ranks and are English qualified and good enough. The answer is a big fat zero.
So, that begs the question - why have an Academy at all?
Steven Gerrard
Jamie Carragher
Nicky Butt
David Beckham
Ashley Cole
Gary Neville
Phil Neville
Paul Scholes
Michael Owen
Robbie Fowler
Steve McManaman
to name but a few.
In 5 years time how many will they have?
Hmmmmmm, if it wasn't for the likes of Lampard jn, Carrick, J Cole, Ferdinand I'd agree with that comment
He said TOP PREM CLUBS :-)
England failed to qualify for major tournments in 1972, 1974, 1976, 1978 and 1994 and i'm pretty sure that in those days the youth system of the entire first divison churned out a lot more English qualified players than they are now. So what you're asking Addick Addict is which players are coming through the top 4 academies that will be playing for England in future? In which case i have no idea as i don't know their academy sides!
I'm very much of the opinion that players find their level and cream rises. If Joe Hart is not as good as a foreign keeper then he doesn't play, and at the same time why would England want to pick a player that isn't as good as a foreign player in his position? He might have to drop down to a smaller club to learn his trade and improve as the likes of Carson, James, Kirkland have all done in their careers. Yes you might have a smaller pool to pick from than in past years but the overall quality is much much higher than before...
Whoops, missed that bit. Saw the word Judus, sorry Mini Paul Ince, Sorry Def*e and had to respond.
Where the top 20 or so players in each age group were obliged to spend time away from their clubs on a regular basis training as a group.
Looking at the players who have played for England in the last 12 months (and ignoring those now retired) I have come made up the below list (the player's first Club followed by current Club in brackets):
Joe Hart - Shrewsbury (Man City)
Fraser Forster - Newcastle (Southampton)
Ben Foster - Stoke (W B A)
John Ruddy - Cambridge United (Norwich)
Phil Jagielka - Sheffield United (Everton)
Gary Cahill - Aston Villa (Chelsea)
Leighton Baines - Wigan (Everton)
Phil Jones - Blackburn (Man Utd)
John Stones - Barnsley (Everton)
Calum Chambers - Southampton (Arsenal)
Danny Rose - Leeds (Spurs)
Glen Johnson - West Ham (Liverpool)
Chris Smalling - Maidstone United (Man Utd)
Luke Shaw - Southampton (Man Utd)
Kyle Walker - Sheffield United (Spurs)
Jon Flanagan - Liverpool (Liverpool)
Kyle Walker - Sheffield United (Spurs)
Steven Caulker - Spurs (Q P R)
Kieran Gibbs - Wimbledon (Arsenal)
James Millner - Leeds (Man City)
Jack Wilshere - Arsenal (Arsenal)
Ales Oxlade-Chamberlain - Southampton (Arsenal)
Jordan Henderson - Sunderland (Liverpool)
Andros Townsend - Spurs (Spurs)
Fabian Delph - Bradford City (Aston Villa)
Ross Barkley - Everton (Everton)
Adam Lallana - Southampton (Liverpool)
Michael Carrick - West Ham (Man Utd)
Tom Cleverley - Man Utd (Aston Villa)
Ashley Young - Watford (Man Utd)
Raheem Sterling - Q P R (Liverpool)
Theo Walcott - Southampton (Arsenal)
Wayne Rooney - Everton (Man Utd)
Danny Welbeck - Man Utd (Arsenal)
Daniel Sturridge - Man City (Liverpool)
Rickie Lambert - Liverpool (Liverpool)
Jermain Defoe - Charlton (Toronto)
Andy Carroll - Newcastle (West Ham)
Jay Rodriquez - Burnley (Southampton)
That's 41 players in total and just six who started at a top five Club. Of those six, Flanagan has just one cap, Rickie Lambert (originally released without kicking a ball for Liverpool) is unlikely to feature too much in the future and Tom Cleverley's days may well be numbered too.
That leaves us with just Sturridge, Welbeck and Wilshere actually produced by a top five Club and a regular in the England squad. Wilshere is, of course, the only one of those still at his first club. And Sturridge and Welbeck left those Clubs in order to find first team football.
So Wilshere is the only member who is a regular member of the England squad who is still at his original Club.
And from that 41 our most likely PL Champions, Chelsea, have produced not one player - despite currently having a massive playing squad and no less than 26 players on loan!
Has that stat affected our ability to perform at the top? Well our performance at the World Cup would certainly suggest that it has.
But, perhaps, I should go back to my original question - why do Chelsea, Man United, Man City, Liverpool and Arsenal even bother throwing money at having an academy, certainly for anything earlier than say the age of Under 16?
It must cost them millions in terms of coaching, equipment etc etc to fund from ages Under 8 upwards which the above statistics rather prove it's money somewhat wasted.
In relation to why do they bother, the academies of the top 4 must almost be self sustaining financially. They are now able to attract the cream of the crop when it comes to young prosprects from all around Europe. If some category 2 or 3 team has a young starlet then they can now legitmately take them as their own (re: Kadell Daniel).
When they reach 18, they send them out on loan where their wages are paid for and in some cases will receive a fee, then when they reach 22 and realise they are not willing to gamble on putting them in their first team, they sell them to a Championship club for £2 or £3 million, take Henri Lansbury.
Chelsea are already doing this on mass. They currently have 26 players on loan around Europe. I wouldn't mind betting that none of those kids will ever see the first team. They are already recieving an income from the loaning teams and when the time is right they will recoup upwards of £30 million from selling those 26 players!