The alternative is to campaign to get things changed or stand for public office & try to change things form the inside...
That is essentially my point. People (including me) moan about how draconian and totalitarian things have become but there seems little mass public will to change things politically.
That said two million odd people signed the petitition against road pricing yet they are still looking to introduce it. Ireland voted against the Lisbon Treaty so have been instructed by the masters in Brussels to vote again and get it right this time.
Fascism (that is national socialism) has crept in by stealth and as Peter Mandelson has said we now live in a post democratic era.
[cite]Posted By: LenGlover[/cite]I'm glad you've avoided being robbed violently. As I said above your attitude may be different if that changes.
Possibly, but the point I was trying to make was that as someone who is reliant on public transport, that it's not this no-go area for women late at night.
it is totalitarian in the extreme to impose an arbitary two second stopping limit at all times (if my understanding of Pickwick is correct) and then use a camera to spy on and then prosecute a man quite properly protecting his wife in a dangerous city at 10:40pm by collecting her from work.
But it's not arbitrary. Red routes are signed with the restrictions, so he should've known that no stopping was allowed, and he has the option to see and contest the footage, so it's hardly some kafkaesque nightmare of the poor innocent motorist being crushed by the state. And if he hadn't been collecting his wife from work and just stopped off to get some beers, would you have been happy for them to fine him then?
[cite]Posted By: LenGlover[/cite]I'm glad you've avoided being robbed violently. As I said above your attitude may be different if that changes.
Possibly, but the point I was trying to make was that as someone who is reliant on public transport, that it's not this no-go area for women late at night.
it is totalitarian in the extreme to impose an arbitary two second stopping limit at all times (if my understanding of Pickwick is correct) and then use a camera to spy on and then prosecute a man quite properly protecting his wife in a dangerous city at 10:40pm by collecting her from work.
But it's not arbitrary. Red routes are signed with the restrictions, so he should've known that no stopping was allowed, and he has the option to see and contest the footage, so it's hardly some kafkaesque nightmare of the poor innocent motorist being crushed by the state. And if he hadn't been collecting his wife from work and just stopped off to get some beers, would you have been happy for them to fine him then?
As I said at the outset no stopping in peak hours is understandable and reasonable to keep the traffic moving.
However I do not comprehend why such a draconian stance needs to be taken at 10:40pm when a law abiding citizen wishes to collect his wife, beer or collection of arsenal scarves:-) unless there is an intent to oppress what are perceived to be evil motorists for financial reasons.
What good reason is there to have no stopping or parking at that time of night?
It can only be to cause inconvenience and carry out a licenced mugging.
Fascism (that is national socialism) has crept in by stealth and as Peter Mandelson has said we now live in a post democratic era.
These traffic cameras are a symbol of that.
Would you like to read that back again in the morning, in the cold light of day?
Man breaks traffic regulation. Man gets sent penalty ticket. Apparently it's fascism.
You have somewhat disingenuously only quoted part of my post! The remainder sets the remark in context.
However yes I do think we are moving inexorably to a form of National socialism or fascism albeit (at the moment anyway) rather more benign than Hitler's disgusting regime.
This is a subject I could wax lyrical about for sometime but to try and summarise: The State is now interfering in areas of peoples' lives where once it would have feared to tread. One example: Underage teenage girls can now obtain contraceptives and morning after pills at their schools without the parents being consulted.
This surely is a decision that individual families should make. Some of us try to bring up their children with some sort of moral compass. Sidelining parents undermines that.
Traditionally the individuals of this country have devolved powers to the State by the consent in the interest of creating a civilised society. We are now seeing the State taking powers for itself as I've tried to illustrate.
as said several times the pics do not show the car had stopped.
as for parking fines keeping poll tax down pleaseeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee how about not puting millions into numpty PC projects which have no proven benifit and no control . or how about TFL not paying an army of Project Managers over £400 a day for YEARS doing not very much
as for travel on the system being safe for females dont tell me a statistic ------------ get your wife / GF or sister/mum to travel on it after 11 PM.
not anti car no of course not
not a stealth tax no of corse not
red routes keep traffic moving yes they MIGHT. Shouldnt stop nope also true. When bus lanes go from 7am to 7 pm then change 100 M down the road to 24 hour and where cameras are set up ( red routes also) it stinks of tricky and catching the f**Kin motorist out.
as some one aboves wife works for TFL i wont actually say what i think of them any more !!!
[cite]Posted By: Goonerhater[/cite]as said several times the pics do not show the car had stopped.
as for parking fines keeping poll tax down pleaseeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee how about not puting millions into numpty PC projects which have no proven benifit and no control . or how about TFL not paying an army of Project Managers over £400 a day for YEARS doing not very much
as for travel on the system being safe for females dont tell me a statistic
get your wife / GF or sister/mum to travel on it after 11 PM.
not anti car no of course not
not a stealth tax no of corse not
red routes keep traffic moving yes they MIGHT. Shouldnt stop nope also true. When bus lanes go from 7am to 7 pm then change 100 M down the road to 24 hour and where cameras are set up ( red routes also) it stinks of tricky and catching the f**Kin motorist out.
as some one aboves wife works for TFL i wont actually say what i think of them any more !!!
I can tell you for certain that all the Deloittes contractors are being phased-out from the Traffic Enforcement directorate.
Re. the signs for changes in bus lanes - if there's not a sign notifying a change, then it's not enforceable and you have grounds for a (likely) successful appeal (my wife worked on the signs & lines team too...). If you don't read the signs, then that's effectively driving without due care & attention.
Back to your actual fine - where is the car? In the middle of the road or pulled right in to the kerb?
[cite]Posted By: Goonerhater[/cite]as said several times the pics do not show the car had stopped.
And if that's the case then you can contest the ticket.
as for travel on the system being safe for females dont tell me a statistic
get your wife / GF or sister/mum to travel on it after 11 PM.
Well I don't have a wife or girlfriend (I don't swing that way :-) ) and as my sister has two small children, being out after 11pm is an incredibly rare luxury for her. Mum regularly uses public transport when coming back from a night out up town (she was dead chuffed to discover that her freedom pass was valid on the night buses, so she could use it to come back from Ronnie Scott's) but as she's normally out with Dad someone's bound to argue that doesn't count. However, I'm perfectly happy to use the tube or buses alone after 11pm, which is a good job too, or I'd never be able to go to evening games.
Well the standard for stopping on double yellows to pick up a passenger is 2 minutes not 2 seconds so you should have a good chance on appeal though you will probably have to go all the way to the Parking and Traffic Appeals Service, TfL have a reputation for cutting corners like this.
I was just on gracechurch street. There was a red London buses Incident Van parked on a double red with hazards flashing. I popped into the Boots and there were the two blokes obviously from the Van as they had the TFL yellow coats on buying up a shops worth of perfume set presents.
What annoys me the most about the Boris administration is the fact that the office of Mayor of London has been instantly devalued to that of London traffic administration. It seems that all anyone talks about is BENDY BUSES.
Mayor Johnsons approach to just about anything to do with the problems facing our city is to do absolutely fuck all. The man is an embarrassment.
[cite]Posted By: Valley_floyd_red[/cite]What annoys me the most about the Boris administration is the fact that the office of Mayor of London has been instantly devalued to that ofLondon traffic administration. It seems that all anyone talks about is BENDY BUSES.
Mayor Johnsons approach to just about anything to do with the problems facing our city is to do absolutely fuck all. The man is an embarrassment.
I'm with Len and GH on this one. (And by the way Len, you come over as a un-reconstructed liberal - sorry for the insult).
Red routes? Fine at rush hour but late evening when there's no traffic about - ridiculous
I got caught on a speed camera a while ago in some road works on the A12, exceeding the limit. I can understand why they would want to restrict speed to protect a site and it's work force. This though was a night, there was no traffic around, the site was deserted and nothing happened there (as far as I could tell) for weeks. There was no need to restrict the speed in my view but I got caught.
We now live in a surveillance society. They passed laws recently to allow surveillance to take place. It was stated as being to do with terrorism/national security. Has it just been used for that? Has it b*llox, councils have been using it to catch dogs sh*tting on the pavement.
Freedoms which have been hard won, are being overriden by that part of the political establishment who like to be autocratic, namely those in Government, rather than those in Parliament.
I listened to Blunkett on the radio yesterday. Oh he's plausible alright. He was talking about ID cards and putting a benign spin on them, backed up by the typical view you get when they want us to swallow their illiberal ideas, namely that if people object, they'll just make passports compulsory for everyone. The thing is, at the moment
1. I don't have to have a passport (although I've got one)
2. I don't have to produce that document to a police officer just because he fancies to stop and question me
Why do we have to justify what we are doing to the state law enforcers? What about Colin Stagg, who was harassed, arrested and "fitted up" for something he didn't do on the say so of our wonderful boys in blue. It's too easy to say, if you haven't done anything wrong, you have nothing to fear.
If you do away with all the checks and balances in our system which have developed over hundreds of years, then it depends on the good will of the government in power, not to abuse that power. That's why these things are important and we seem to have sleep walked into an authoritarian trap.
I am becoming alarmed at bad and draconian laws which are being passed, it seems, almost daily to erode our hard won civil liberties.
1. Anti terrorism laws which are used to arrest pensioners shouting protest at Labour Conferences
2. Anti terrorist police used to arrest and search an MP who was pursuing his legitimate role in holding the government to account and whilst under Commons priviledge
3. 30 days detention without trial (and trying to increase it)
4. House arrest/banning orders
5. Use of serious crime/money laundering legistation intended to deal with serious organised crime and terrorism being used against ordinary individuals.
6. Plans for GCHQ to monitor all phone calls and e mails.
If you want an example of how these kind of laws can be abused to cow certain sections of the population, look no further than Apartheid South Africa. They had many of these kind of laws to support an immoral racist regime.
The system to me is bust and we need a new consitutional settlement which codifies the balance of power between the executive and the legislature so that our rights as citizens to live free of persecution are re-enshrined in constitutional law. If we don't then I fear for our freedom in this "post democratic" society.
[cite]Posted By: bingaddick[/cite]
Red routes? Fine at rush hour but late evening when there's no traffic about - ridiculous
I got caught on a speed camera a while ago in some road works on the A12, exceeding the limit. I can understand why they would want to restrict speed to protect a site and it's work force. This though was a night, there was no traffic around, the site was deserted and nothing happened there (as far as I could tell) for weeks. There was no need to restrict the speed in my view but I got caught.
I fully agree that the hours of operation of the red routes need to be reviewed & probably shouldn't go beyond 10pm, but the fact is that they do & are well signposted. GH broke the rules & got caught. Simple as.
Your point about getting caught in the roadworks...basically, all roads are assessed & basically "licensed" to operate at a set speed limit due to the coditions of the road & surrounding area. As soon as those conditions change (such as a lane being taken-out for roadworks), the speed limit will get changed (albeit temporarily) because the road isn't as safe as it's supposed to be. If the change in speed limit wasn't properly signed at the start of the roadworks, you'd have cause for complaint. Again, this is a criminal offence (speeding) rather than a civil one (red routes/parking tickets/bus lanes/banned turns)
As I've said above, I've been caught & fined too, so I'm not saying this as some kind of rules freak sat on a high horse.
I would just like to add that if a bit of 'Common sense' was used when issuing fines etc to people for various traffic 'offences' people would be far more accepting of it in my view. Someone doing 45mph outside a school at 8.45am would get the same fine as someone doing same speed at same place at 3.00am is that right, if you are a parent I cannot believe you would say that it is.
[cite]Posted By: Valley_floyd_red[/cite]What annoys me the most about the Boris administration is the fact that the office of Mayor of London has been instantly devalued to that ofLondon traffic administration. It seems that all anyone talks about is BENDY BUSES.
Mayor Johnsons approach to just about anything to do with the problems facing our city is to do absolutely fuck all. The man is an embarrassment.
Such as spending money on a bus that London doesn't need, but scrapping future extension to the DLR and more criminally Rape crisis centres which he promised to put in place.
Got done in a "boxjunction" in Battersea acouple of weeks back; As I entered the box I had aclear exit (travelling at about 4/5 miles an hour.) 2 poxy vans then come up the inside, in the buslane, and pull infront of me,causing the front wheels on my van to stop in the junction. Have written to appeal against it, but not holding my breath.
I bet those on here calling for "discretion" and "common sense" are the same ones who moan about a "lack of consistency" when it comes to something like, oh .... I dunno - football refereeing decisions! (thought I'd at least mention the game on a football discussion board!)
[cite]Posted By: miserableold-ish git[/cite]Got done in a "boxjunction" in Battersea acouple of weeks back;
As I entered the box I had aclear exit (travelling at about 4/5 miles an hour.)
2 poxy vans then come up the inside, in the buslane, and pull infront of me,causing the front wheels on my van to stop in the junction.
Have written to appeal against it, but not holding my breath.
If you are perfectly sure that there was a clear exit from the box junction prior to these two vans speeding up your inside then cutting in front of you, you can't possibly lose. If there is the slightest ambiguity about it, you won't win. I believe that ALL box junction cases have to be backed up with video (not photographic) evidence - though I could bw wrong on that. If I'm right, there's video evidence, and if you've not done what a lot of motorists do (convince themselves they were in the right when they weren't) I'd say you have a near certainty of winning your appeal (though you may have to take it to PATAS to do so as local autorities regularly refuse appeals simply because they don't want to admit they were in the wrong issuing the ticket in the first place)
Box junctions do need to be backe up by video evidence and they also need to be square or rectangular, there are a huge number on the ground which are unenforceable.
Thanks "Leroy" and "Pickwick"; Got one picture with my "fine" showing the 1st van infront of me outside the box,(over the far side), but the 2nd half and half/in and out. Will write aletter requesting more photos and/or videos. Thanks again. P.
I'd also add that Bing and I have almost diametrically opposite views on the EU and its effect on the UK. (We have had a few good discussions in the past on here) yet we find ourselves in agreement re the erosion of our freedoms.
That should tell people something about the evils of camera suveillance unless it is for genuine security/protection reasons.
ps Bing, unreconstructed Liberal is not an insult at all. I voted for the old Liberal party in the days before the two Davids got together for their "surge" and the SDP "gang of 4" came on the bandwagon.
Comments
That is essentially my point. People (including me) moan about how draconian and totalitarian things have become but there seems little mass public will to change things politically.
That said two million odd people signed the petitition against road pricing yet they are still looking to introduce it. Ireland voted against the Lisbon Treaty so have been instructed by the masters in Brussels to vote again and get it right this time.
Fascism (that is national socialism) has crept in by stealth and as Peter Mandelson has said we now live in a post democratic era.
These traffic cameras are a symbol of that.
Would you like to read that back again in the morning, in the cold light of day?
Man breaks traffic regulation. Man gets sent penalty ticket. Apparently it's fascism.
But it's not arbitrary. Red routes are signed with the restrictions, so he should've known that no stopping was allowed, and he has the option to see and contest the footage, so it's hardly some kafkaesque nightmare of the poor innocent motorist being crushed by the state. And if he hadn't been collecting his wife from work and just stopped off to get some beers, would you have been happy for them to fine him then?
As I said at the outset no stopping in peak hours is understandable and reasonable to keep the traffic moving.
However I do not comprehend why such a draconian stance needs to be taken at 10:40pm when a law abiding citizen wishes to collect his wife, beer or collection of arsenal scarves:-) unless there is an intent to oppress what are perceived to be evil motorists for financial reasons.
What good reason is there to have no stopping or parking at that time of night?
It can only be to cause inconvenience and carry out a licenced mugging.
You have somewhat disingenuously only quoted part of my post! The remainder sets the remark in context.
However yes I do think we are moving inexorably to a form of National socialism or fascism albeit (at the moment anyway) rather more benign than Hitler's disgusting regime.
This is a subject I could wax lyrical about for sometime but to try and summarise: The State is now interfering in areas of peoples' lives where once it would have feared to tread. One example: Underage teenage girls can now obtain contraceptives and morning after pills at their schools without the parents being consulted.
This surely is a decision that individual families should make. Some of us try to bring up their children with some sort of moral compass. Sidelining parents undermines that.
Traditionally the individuals of this country have devolved powers to the State by the consent in the interest of creating a civilised society. We are now seeing the State taking powers for itself as I've tried to illustrate.
I can only see it getting worse.
as for parking fines keeping poll tax down pleaseeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee how about not puting millions into numpty PC projects which have no proven benifit and no control . or how about TFL not paying an army of Project Managers over £400 a day for YEARS doing not very much
as for travel on the system being safe for females dont tell me a statistic ------------ get your wife / GF or sister/mum to travel on it after 11 PM.
not anti car no of course not
not a stealth tax no of corse not
red routes keep traffic moving yes they MIGHT. Shouldnt stop nope also true. When bus lanes go from 7am to 7 pm then change 100 M down the road to 24 hour and where cameras are set up ( red routes also) it stinks of tricky and catching the f**Kin motorist out.
as some one aboves wife works for TFL i wont actually say what i think of them any more !!!
Re. the signs for changes in bus lanes - if there's not a sign notifying a change, then it's not enforceable and you have grounds for a (likely) successful appeal (my wife worked on the signs & lines team too...). If you don't read the signs, then that's effectively driving without due care & attention.
Back to your actual fine - where is the car? In the middle of the road or pulled right in to the kerb?
Well I don't have a wife or girlfriend (I don't swing that way :-) ) and as my sister has two small children, being out after 11pm is an incredibly rare luxury for her. Mum regularly uses public transport when coming back from a night out up town (she was dead chuffed to discover that her freedom pass was valid on the night buses, so she could use it to come back from Ronnie Scott's) but as she's normally out with Dad someone's bound to argue that doesn't count. However, I'm perfectly happy to use the tube or buses alone after 11pm, which is a good job too, or I'd never be able to go to evening games.
Thought you'd like it you bike riding car hater ! :-)
I love it, swings from conspriacy theroies, to sensible post, to utter loonacy.
Len Glover = Woolworths Jermey Clarkson ;o)
I was just on gracechurch street. There was a red London buses Incident Van parked on a double red with hazards flashing. I popped into the Boots and there were the two blokes obviously from the Van as they had the TFL yellow coats on buying up a shops worth of perfume set presents.
It made me laugh.
Mayor Johnsons approach to just about anything to do with the problems facing our city is to do absolutely fuck all. The man is an embarrassment.
Whatever
I'm with Len and GH on this one. (And by the way Len, you come over as a un-reconstructed liberal - sorry for the insult).
Red routes? Fine at rush hour but late evening when there's no traffic about - ridiculous
I got caught on a speed camera a while ago in some road works on the A12, exceeding the limit. I can understand why they would want to restrict speed to protect a site and it's work force. This though was a night, there was no traffic around, the site was deserted and nothing happened there (as far as I could tell) for weeks. There was no need to restrict the speed in my view but I got caught.
We now live in a surveillance society. They passed laws recently to allow surveillance to take place. It was stated as being to do with terrorism/national security. Has it just been used for that? Has it b*llox, councils have been using it to catch dogs sh*tting on the pavement.
Freedoms which have been hard won, are being overriden by that part of the political establishment who like to be autocratic, namely those in Government, rather than those in Parliament.
I listened to Blunkett on the radio yesterday. Oh he's plausible alright. He was talking about ID cards and putting a benign spin on them, backed up by the typical view you get when they want us to swallow their illiberal ideas, namely that if people object, they'll just make passports compulsory for everyone. The thing is, at the moment
1. I don't have to have a passport (although I've got one)
2. I don't have to produce that document to a police officer just because he fancies to stop and question me
Why do we have to justify what we are doing to the state law enforcers? What about Colin Stagg, who was harassed, arrested and "fitted up" for something he didn't do on the say so of our wonderful boys in blue. It's too easy to say, if you haven't done anything wrong, you have nothing to fear.
If you do away with all the checks and balances in our system which have developed over hundreds of years, then it depends on the good will of the government in power, not to abuse that power. That's why these things are important and we seem to have sleep walked into an authoritarian trap.
I am becoming alarmed at bad and draconian laws which are being passed, it seems, almost daily to erode our hard won civil liberties.
1. Anti terrorism laws which are used to arrest pensioners shouting protest at Labour Conferences
2. Anti terrorist police used to arrest and search an MP who was pursuing his legitimate role in holding the government to account and whilst under Commons priviledge
3. 30 days detention without trial (and trying to increase it)
4. House arrest/banning orders
5. Use of serious crime/money laundering legistation intended to deal with serious organised crime and terrorism being used against ordinary individuals.
6. Plans for GCHQ to monitor all phone calls and e mails.
If you want an example of how these kind of laws can be abused to cow certain sections of the population, look no further than Apartheid South Africa. They had many of these kind of laws to support an immoral racist regime.
The system to me is bust and we need a new consitutional settlement which codifies the balance of power between the executive and the legislature so that our rights as citizens to live free of persecution are re-enshrined in constitutional law. If we don't then I fear for our freedom in this "post democratic" society.
Your point about getting caught in the roadworks...basically, all roads are assessed & basically "licensed" to operate at a set speed limit due to the coditions of the road & surrounding area. As soon as those conditions change (such as a lane being taken-out for roadworks), the speed limit will get changed (albeit temporarily) because the road isn't as safe as it's supposed to be. If the change in speed limit wasn't properly signed at the start of the roadworks, you'd have cause for complaint. Again, this is a criminal offence (speeding) rather than a civil one (red routes/parking tickets/bus lanes/banned turns)
As I've said above, I've been caught & fined too, so I'm not saying this as some kind of rules freak sat on a high horse.
Such as spending money on a bus that London doesn't need, but scrapping future extension to the DLR and more criminally Rape crisis centres which he promised to put in place.
As I entered the box I had aclear exit (travelling at about 4/5 miles an hour.)
2 poxy vans then come up the inside, in the buslane, and pull infront of me,causing the front wheels on my van to stop in the junction.
Have written to appeal against it, but not holding my breath.
I bet those on here calling for "discretion" and "common sense" are the same ones who moan about a "lack of consistency" when it comes to something like, oh .... I dunno - football refereeing decisions! (thought I'd at least mention the game on a football discussion board!)
Merry Christmas!
Got one picture with my "fine" showing the 1st van infront of me outside the box,(over the far side), but the 2nd half and half/in and out.
Will write aletter requesting more photos and/or videos.
Thanks again.
P.
I'd also add that Bing and I have almost diametrically opposite views on the EU and its effect on the UK. (We have had a few good discussions in the past on here) yet we find ourselves in agreement re the erosion of our freedoms.
That should tell people something about the evils of camera suveillance unless it is for genuine security/protection reasons.
ps Bing, unreconstructed Liberal is not an insult at all. I voted for the old Liberal party in the days before the two Davids got together for their "surge" and the SDP "gang of 4" came on the bandwagon.