did anyone see the 'who do you think you are' about her ancestors?
when they were tracing her grandfathers life through the first world war and they showed the footage of the men that were suffering from 'shell shock'
a real eye opener for me. i thought shell shock was a mental condition, though have heard of the 'thousand yard stare', but the scenes they showed of the soldiers suffering physically was terrible.
just shows my ignorance of it.
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I definitely would by the way.
The '1,000 yard stare' is probably what 99% of us would have been like - a complete sensory overload.
Seen a few people in the East Stand like that this season.
When I was a nipper in the 50's I asked my mother what was wrong with the man walking in front of us, his head was shaking all over the place. She whispered to me he was suffering from shell shock. The vision of him has stayed with me ever since, it is a terrible thing to suffer.
Myth.
Only 306 of the British and Commonwealth forces (no Aussies btw) were executed. Most of those for murder/rape/pillage/falling asleep on sentry duty.
Without a doubt some were executed for so called 'cowardice' - but very few.
Incidently the first soldier executed during the first world War was from the Royal West Kents - Thomas Highgate aged 19.
Mental conditions do sometimes have physical symptoms hence the shaking etc.
Gordon Corrigan disputes that people with Shell Shock were shot for cowardice in his "mud, blood and Poppycock" book BTW. Well worth reading if you are interested in that period as is Pat Barker's Regeneration trilogy.
Did you Sidcupites know that Queen Mary's Hospital was opened as a hospital for Facial Injuries in 1917?
I enjoy the Would Do You Think You Are and yes I would
Wow Harsh, I think that's a little OTT some serious beating and a stern warning but executing jesus lord almighty!!!
Imagine you are having a rest in a trench on the front line and Addickted has been left on sentry duty.
He falls asleep so there is no one to raise the alarm when some German soldiers jump into your trench and stick a bayonet in your or takes you prisoner.
Harsh maybe, necessary probably.
Most soldiers weren't shot for falling asleep on duty but a few were.
well they won't do that again.
wrong war. What do they teach you kids at School these days.
Most were sentenced to death but then had that reduced on appeal but the deterrent needed to be there.
The British Army had abolished beatings by WWI
Nick, Myth is a bit strong mate.....here is a piece (or part of) on the subject.......
During the Great (sic) War of 1914-1918 around 9 million men lost their lives in one of the greatest acts of barbarity and futility the world has ever seen. This compares to an estimated 14 million deaths during all wars in the previous century. The heroism and sacrifice of troops in the trenches is probably without parallel. However, during the war, 306 British and Commonwealth soldiers were shot on the orders of military top brass and senior officers. In contrast, the Germans only executed 25 of their own. The Americans executed none of their soldiers.
The pretexts for execution for British soldiers had a common theme: many were suffering shell shock (also called "war neurosis" or "combat stress" and now recognised as Post Traumatic Stress Disorder or PTSD), and most were deliberately picked out and convicted "as a lesson to others". Charges included desertion (walking around dazed and confused suffering from PTSD), cowardice (ditto), or insubordination (any minor action that could be pressed into service as an excuse for execution). Some were simply obeying orders to carry information from one trench to another. Most of those shot were young, defenceless and vulnerable teenagers who had volunteered for duty. They were selected, charged, and subjected to a mock trial often without defence one day, convicted, then shot at dawn the following day. Eye-witness accounts suggest many faced their death with a gallantry absent in their accusers.
Dazzler....Hitler lead the Germans in the second world war mate....in fact he served as a common soldier in WW1
Incidently the first soldier executed during the first world War was from the Royal West Kents - Thomas Highgate aged 19.[/quote]
There were full court martials with a training lawyer on the bench if it was a capital charge and as Addickted said many were for murder and rape.
I'm not saying that there were no miscarriages of justice but "they all had shell shock" is a myth.
Here is a bit more from the same piece.
General Haig, when questioned, declared that all men accused of cowardice and desertion were examined by a Medical Officer (MO) and that no soldier was sentenced to death if there was any suspicion of him suffering shell shock. The Under-Secretary of State for War also and repeatedly misled the House of Commons on this matter. In fact, most soldiers accused of cowardice and desertion were not examined by an MO, and in the few cases where a medical diagnosis of shell shock had been made, the medical evidence was rubbished or ignored and the man was convicted and shot anyway. General Haig not only signed all the death warrants but when questioned later on this issue lied repeatedly. General Haig's behaviour in choosing to murder his own men places him in the category of war criminal.
The generals' sterile belief was that anyone suffering shell shock was malingering. In fact in the generals' minds, shell-shock and malingering were one and the same thing. Amongst the Western nations involved in World War 1, the British Military were the furthest behind in understanding trauma, and such steps as were taken by the British Forces towards dealing with trauma were for the sole purpose of returning men to the Front as quickly as possible. So obsessed were British Generals with making accusations of cowardice and malingering that it is more likely to be projection; weak, inadequate, cowardly, but aggressive individuals project their weaknesses onto others in order to distract and divert attention away from their own weakness and inadequacy. This mentality still thrives in employers who blame employees suffering stress for not being able to cope with their job and for being weak and inadequate. Anyone indulging in a blame-the-victim strategy is revealing their own inadequacy.
Documentation on these atrocities was kept secret for 75 years and only recently have the circumstances become clear. In the intervening period, the families of these men have suffered shame, humiliation and embarrassment, compounded by the government's refusal to allow the families to mourn these men alongside their comrades. For these families, an awful guilty secret has blighted their lives and financial hardship has been heaped upon them through the actions of neighbours, landlords, employers and gossips exhibiting the prejudice of a misinformed public.
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So if 2 out of 306 is part of the most executed numbers,then it must be fair to say that a fair few innocents were also executed whilst suffering from shell shock then.
My reading around this period suggests the truth as usual lies somewhere in between. I belive that a significant number of executions for cowardice/desertion were directly related to the soldier involved suffering from shell shock. You are right that there were courts martial for those involved but reading some of the records of these the trials were brief in the extreme with little real investigation of the facts. The judgement was then generally rubber stamped all the way up to Haig and sentence carried out. There were death sentences commuted but the vast majority of these were when the accused was an officer. The average working class volunteer stood virtually no chance of having the death sentence overturned once the initial judgement had been made.
Just had a re-read of the posts.....I dont think anybody said "they all had shell shock" Did they?
On balance I have to say that Kigelia is about right...the truth falls somewhere in between, certainly from the books Ive read over the years anyway.
393 death sentences were given for sleeping on duty but only 2 were carried out and these two were not only found asleep but sitting down in the trench.
So not just nodded off while standing watching for the enemy approach but decided to sit down and have a kip.
So the other 391 were commuted to imprisonment or field punishment.
91 of those executed where already under suspended sentences for serious offences and 9 under two suspensions. Of these 40 were under suspended sentences of death and one man had already been sentenced to death twice. Can't really say that they didn't get a second chance.
And in 1920 the Southborough committee was set up to investigate shell shock and found that it was taken seriously and that medical advice was taken at court martial
That Fiona Bruce's grandfather was invalided home and given treatment for 9 months and that there were many other cases treated suggest that Shell Shock was both recognised and dealt with.
BURTON Robert Pte 10912 6/S Lancs Sleeping 19/02/1917
These are the only two who were shot for sleeping whilst on sentry - over twenty of there comrades were killed during a raid that they should have prevented. Most soldiers on sentry duty used to rest there heads on their bayonnet - if they dropped off, then the point would wake them up.
I believe only 19 people were executed for cowardice.
A lot of those people shot for 'desertion' had committed far more serious crimes.
The last person shot (4 days before the armistice) was Ernest Jackson of the Royal Fusiliers - he had deserted three times previously and only on his fourth attempt was he tried and executed.
Very true about the officers though - only one was executed - Sublatern Edwin Dyett. I recently read a book about his story, which included letters to and from home ('I'm in a little bit of bother farther, but nothing to worry about')and in his case, it certainly was a miscarriage of justice. Fascinating insight into the whole process of trial, conviction and execution. Dyett was in the Nelson Battalion of the Royal Navy and had been trying to get away from front line duty for some time because of his nervous disposition. He got lost for a day between the front line and his battalion HQ trying to deliver a messge and waited at his HQ for the rest of his battalion to return. Somone he had crossed previously reported him for deserting his post and it escalated from there.
I'm sure there were quite a few cases like him.
Sorry didnt notice this in the first post :
They really should make reading a priority in schools these days! ;o)
19 years old ......only a boy?
What was his crime - that he had to be murdered in cold blood by his own comrades.....?
anyway....
Fiona Bruce, Would you or would'nt you ? definately worth a back scuttle !
Desertion
Definately
oh.