I thought Shilton guessed right but just couldn't drag his tired out 39-year-old across quickly enough to stop them but who knows?
what I've always thought to myself is why didn't Sir Bobby bring on Dave Pheasant for him in the 119th minute - the king of the penalty stoppers would have shurely got to one or two or them
either that or his barnet would have made the Germans stop in admiration and put them off...
lol kinch or the site of beasants barnet could have taken the germans eye off the ball and we could have nicked a late winner
was it leicester who did that against palace in the play off final, brought on some 6ft 7in freak for the penalty shoot out and then nicked a winner... something like that i htink
Why doesn't it work like that Ormiston? It works like that for every single national side the world over! The best players in their position play for the top clubs, the national side is made up from players who are the best available in their position whoever they play for. Germany, Italy and more recently Spain are the most successful European national sides, all pick from players not playing Champions league football. Last years final saw 10 English players starting the final, including holding midfielders Carrick and Hargreeves.
If we take 1996 as the year that the 'foreign invasion that ruined the national team' happened we've failed to qualify for one national tournament (08) in the 13 years after it as opposed to the 13years preceeding '96' where we failed to qualify for 2 international tournaments (94 & 84) infact our finishes in the 13years in both European cup and World Cup have been on the whole better since the foreign invasion.
Sorry your argument for me doesn't hold water, foreign players are not the issue for Englands lack of International success, never have been. Producing more better quality players and proper coaching is Englands problem and always has been.
[cite]Posted By: Ormiston Addick[/cite]The BBC and others have been spouting on about this great achievement so I thought I'd double check how many Englishmen were actually in each club's 18-man squad.
Man United - Ferdinand, Carrick, Scholes, Rooney, Foster.
Chelsea - Cole, Lampard, Terry.
Liverpool - Carragher, Gerrard, Spearing, Kelly.
Arsenal - Walcott, Gibbs.
That's a total of 14 Englishmen from the 72 players in those squads. What's more, Foster, Spearing, Kelly and Gibbs were unused subs and Walcott only came on as a late sub which means those "English" sides actually only had 9 English players in the 44 starting players - just over 20% or 1 in 5 - no wonder everybody likes Aston Villa and Martin O'Neill!!!
I find it very sad and what's more people will still ask why we are so useless when it comes to the big international tournaments, here is the answer folks.
Don't forget that none of the managers are English either...
Who was the last Englishman to manage a team in the CL?
[cite]Posted By: Ormiston Addick[/cite]The BBC and others have been spouting on about this great achievement so I thought I'd double check how many Englishmen were actually in each club's 18-man squad.
Man United - Ferdinand, Carrick, Scholes, Rooney, Foster.
Chelsea - Cole, Lampard, Terry.
Liverpool - Carragher, Gerrard, Spearing, Kelly.
Arsenal - Walcott, Gibbs.
That's a total of 14 Englishmen from the 72 players in those squads. What's more, Foster, Spearing, Kelly and Gibbs were unused subs and Walcott only came on as a late sub which means those "English" sides actually only had 9 English players in the 44 starting players - just over 20% or 1 in 5 - no wonder everybody likes Aston Villa and Martin O'Neill!!!
I find it very sad and what's more people will still ask why we are so useless when it comes to the big international tournaments, here is the answer folks.
Don't forget that none of the managers are English either...
Who was the last Englishman to manage a team in the CL?
Maybe Roy Hodgson?
And that would have been Malmo, a Swedish club.
Who was the last Englishman to manage an English Club I wonder?
I find it hard to take an interest in the champions league and never bother watching the group stages. 4 english teams being in the quarter finals kills off my interest in the competition. I don't take any pride in the premier league teams' success because i feel no link with them just like i feel no link with most of the england squad. I'd rather watch foreign teams playing each other in the champs league and all-english ties don't do it for me at all.
Above all having to hear the biased hype about the english teams is annoying.
I wanted juve, inter, roma and real madrid to win this week so it's been a bad few days!
[cite]Posted By: BBClaus[/cite]I find it hard to take an interest in the champions league and never bother watching the group stages. 4 english teams being in the quarter finals kills off my interest in the competition. I don't take any pride in the premier league teams' success because i feel no link with them just like i feel no link with most of the england squad. I'd rather watch foreign teams playing each other in the champs league and all-english ties don't do it for me at all.
Above all having to hear the biased hype about the english teams is annoying.
I wanted juve, inter, roma and real madrid to win this week so it's been a bad few days!
Spot on. Getting less and less interested as each year passes and I think I even enjoyed the Euros more last year BECAUSE we weren't in it - therefore was able to just sit back and watch it as a neutral.
Why doesn't it work like that Ormiston? It works like that for every single national side the world over! The best players in their position play for the top clubs, the national side is made up from players who are the best available in their position whoever they play for. Germany, Italy and more recently Spain are the most successful European national sides, all pick from players not playing Champions league football. Last years final saw 10 English players starting the final, including holding midfielders Carrick and Hargreeves.
If we take 1996 as the year that the 'foreign invasion that ruined the national team' happened we've failed to qualify for one national tournament (08) in the 13 years after it as opposed to the 13years preceeding '96' where we failed to qualify for 2 international tournaments (94 & 84) infact our finishes in the 13years in both European cup and World Cup have been on the whole better since the foreign invasion.
Sorry your argument for me doesn't hold water, foreign players are not the issue for Englands lack of International success, never have been. Producing more better quality players and proper coaching is Englands problem and always has been.
T - You are correct about the lack of proper coaching being a killer for young English footballers and leaving them miles behind their continental couterparts in terms of technique - no doubt about that.
However, I also think it is inarguable that players like Darren Bent, Defoe, Agbonlahor, Young and others would massively benefit from playing in the ECL on a regular basis and would become far better players for it. As things stand if Rooney gets injured for the next World Cup then who can England call on that has serious international level experience?
The big four have the money to buy the best players in the world in Berbatov, Torres and Drogba which makes it very, very, difficult for English players to get into those teams, especially in key positions, and as a result get the right experience to prosper in top-class international football.
I think it is impossible to expect a player to prosper at international level unless they are playing in the ECL regularly, its like expecting a rugby player to play Test Rugby without playing in the Heineken European Cup, its very hard to make that step.
Yes, players like Gerrard, Lampard and Ferdinand HAVE become much better players from playing with these high-class foreign players BUT we only have NINE Englishmen playing ECL football and you need a squad of at least 16-17 top-class players if you want to win a World Cup and we are nowhere near that.
As I said we have got the following regular ECL starters but no depth of experienced talent:
Terry and Ferdinand - who plays if one/both are injured? Upson? King? Neither are good enough.
Ashley Cole - We have seen how poor Bridge is!!!
Gerrard, Lampard and Scholes - Three great players but not much coming behind them.
Rooney - Only really got unproven players like Agbonlahor, Defoe and Bent.
At the moment there are no English players playing in the ECL at right-back (if you accept that Neville is past it), defensive midfield, left-midfield or as a goalscoring striker and they are the exact positions that remain a problem for the England side.
The foreign players bring many wonderful things to the game and I would not want to see them go but I am very worried that when the likes of Gerrard, Lampard, Terry and Ferdinand (the Golden Generation) retire that they will be replaced by foreigners and not English players.
I ask you, is it impossible to think that in 3-5 years we will have NO English players in those big four ECL sides? I don't think it is and that really worries me in terms of where our national team could be headed.
The last Champions League game I watched in full was the Manchester United final maybe 10 years ago - in Hardys, Greenwich with Razil, Charlton Charlie & Clem Snide if i recall correctly.
Absolutely no interest in it whatsoever.
I love domestic Eurpean football & often ctach Serie A, Bundesliga, La Liga etc etc - but the European stuff has f*cked up our domestic game & I cant be bothered with it.
[cite]Posted By: BBClaus[/cite]I find it hard to take an interest in the champions league and never bother watching the group stages. 4 english teams being in the quarter finals kills off my interest in the competition. I don't take any pride in the premier league teams' success because i feel no link with them just like i feel no link with most of the england squad. I'd rather watch foreign teams playing each other in the champs league and all-english ties don't do it for me at all.
Above all having to hear the biased hype about the english teams is annoying.
I wanted juve, inter, roma and real madrid to win this week so it's been a bad few days!
each to their own , i enjoy watching good footy(both legs of man utd v inter were top top quality) and the fact that charlton have played and won/drawn/lost against some of these english teams and english players playing in the competition is a testament to what level we used to play at at such a short time ago
we have next to no connection with the foreign teams and i find it bizarre/bitter that you wouldn't want an english club side to do well in europe. millwall excepted;-)
In 85 (Heysel) Liverpool has one English Player and he was a Charlton Youth product. The home counties rules meant English sides had a big advantage at the time over other european times who could only play three non-nationals.
The great Real team of the 50s had plenty of Argentines, Hungarians and Frenchmen as well
When the Lisbon Lions beat Inter I think both sides were entirely home grown. Celtic all came from within 30 miles of Glasgow and I think Italy had banned all non-Italian players at the time.
[cite]Posted By: oohaahmortimer[/cite]each to their own , i enjoy watching good footy(both legs of man utd v inter were top top quality) and the fact that charlton have played and won/drawn/lost against some of these english teams and english players playing in the competition is a testament to what level we used to play at at such a short time ago
we have next to no connection with the foreign teams and i find it bizarre/bitter that you wouldn't want an english club side to do well in europe. millwall excepted;-)
We played those teams twice a year but that's as close as our link to them got. They played in a seperate league within a league that the other 16 teams could never break into because of how money was unfairly divided. There's not much there I can relate to. Having any country's teams dominating europe is boring, it's even worse when its your own and you have to hear all the nonsense in the press about them.
Comments
what I've always thought to myself is why didn't Sir Bobby bring on Dave Pheasant for him in the 119th minute - the king of the penalty stoppers would have shurely got to one or two or them
either that or his barnet would have made the Germans stop in admiration and put them off...
was it leicester who did that against palace in the play off final, brought on some 6ft 7in freak for the penalty shoot out and then nicked a winner... something like that i htink
If we take 1996 as the year that the 'foreign invasion that ruined the national team' happened we've failed to qualify for one national tournament (08) in the 13 years after it as opposed to the 13years preceeding '96' where we failed to qualify for 2 international tournaments (94 & 84) infact our finishes in the 13years in both European cup and World Cup have been on the whole better since the foreign invasion.
Sorry your argument for me doesn't hold water, foreign players are not the issue for Englands lack of International success, never have been. Producing more better quality players and proper coaching is Englands problem and always has been.
Don't forget that none of the managers are English either...
Who was the last Englishman to manage a team in the CL?
Maybe Roy Hodgson?
And that would have been Malmo, a Swedish club.
Who was the last Englishman to manage an English Club I wonder?
I've a feeling Bobby Robson was manager of Newcastle when they were in the CL.
Did Ray Harford manage Blackburn in the CL?
Above all having to hear the biased hype about the english teams is annoying.
I wanted juve, inter, roma and real madrid to win this week so it's been a bad few days!
Spot on. Getting less and less interested as each year passes and I think I even enjoyed the Euros more last year BECAUSE we weren't in it - therefore was able to just sit back and watch it as a neutral.
If we take 1996 as the year that the 'foreign invasion that ruined the national team' happened we've failed to qualify for one national tournament (08) in the 13 years after it as opposed to the 13years preceeding '96' where we failed to qualify for 2 international tournaments (94 & 84) infact our finishes in the 13years in both European cup and World Cup have been on the whole better since the foreign invasion.
Sorry your argument for me doesn't hold water, foreign players are not the issue for Englands lack of International success, never have been. Producing more better quality players and proper coaching is Englands problem and always has been.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
T - You are correct about the lack of proper coaching being a killer for young English footballers and leaving them miles behind their continental couterparts in terms of technique - no doubt about that.
However, I also think it is inarguable that players like Darren Bent, Defoe, Agbonlahor, Young and others would massively benefit from playing in the ECL on a regular basis and would become far better players for it. As things stand if Rooney gets injured for the next World Cup then who can England call on that has serious international level experience?
The big four have the money to buy the best players in the world in Berbatov, Torres and Drogba which makes it very, very, difficult for English players to get into those teams, especially in key positions, and as a result get the right experience to prosper in top-class international football.
I think it is impossible to expect a player to prosper at international level unless they are playing in the ECL regularly, its like expecting a rugby player to play Test Rugby without playing in the Heineken European Cup, its very hard to make that step.
Yes, players like Gerrard, Lampard and Ferdinand HAVE become much better players from playing with these high-class foreign players BUT we only have NINE Englishmen playing ECL football and you need a squad of at least 16-17 top-class players if you want to win a World Cup and we are nowhere near that.
As I said we have got the following regular ECL starters but no depth of experienced talent:
Terry and Ferdinand - who plays if one/both are injured? Upson? King? Neither are good enough.
Ashley Cole - We have seen how poor Bridge is!!!
Gerrard, Lampard and Scholes - Three great players but not much coming behind them.
Rooney - Only really got unproven players like Agbonlahor, Defoe and Bent.
At the moment there are no English players playing in the ECL at right-back (if you accept that Neville is past it), defensive midfield, left-midfield or as a goalscoring striker and they are the exact positions that remain a problem for the England side.
The foreign players bring many wonderful things to the game and I would not want to see them go but I am very worried that when the likes of Gerrard, Lampard, Terry and Ferdinand (the Golden Generation) retire that they will be replaced by foreigners and not English players.
I ask you, is it impossible to think that in 3-5 years we will have NO English players in those big four ECL sides? I don't think it is and that really worries me in terms of where our national team could be headed.
Absolutely no interest in it whatsoever.
I love domestic Eurpean football & often ctach Serie A, Bundesliga, La Liga etc etc - but the European stuff has f*cked up our domestic game & I cant be bothered with it.
each to their own , i enjoy watching good footy(both legs of man utd v inter were top top quality) and the fact that charlton have played and won/drawn/lost against some of these english teams and english players playing in the competition is a testament to what level we used to play at at such a short time ago
we have next to no connection with the foreign teams and i find it bizarre/bitter that you wouldn't want an english club side to do well in europe. millwall excepted;-)
The great Real team of the 50s had plenty of Argentines, Hungarians and Frenchmen as well
When the Lisbon Lions beat Inter I think both sides were entirely home grown. Celtic all came from within 30 miles of Glasgow and I think Italy had banned all non-Italian players at the time.
We played those teams twice a year but that's as close as our link to them got. They played in a seperate league within a league that the other 16 teams could never break into because of how money was unfairly divided. There's not much there I can relate to. Having any country's teams dominating europe is boring, it's even worse when its your own and you have to hear all the nonsense in the press about them.