At first glance it does seem an amazing deal. As the article say one minute they are signing Carlton Cole and then...
What is weak in the argument, and most conspiracy theories, is that the link between MSI and Chelsea hasn't been proved and if that is not true the whole thing collapses.
An alternative is that the players are effectively on loan to West Ham as MSI have retained part ownership and/or secured a massive sell on clause (40-60%) so that if and when they move in the summer MSI get another lump some. But that is just more speculation.
What is does show is that all football dealings should IMHO be out in the open. Fees, agents, sell ons, owners of contracts etc etc.
"What is weak in the argument, and most conspiracy theories, is that the link between MSI and Chelsea hasn't been proved and if that is not true the whole thing collapses."
Another person behind MSI is the agent Pina Zahavi, who is certainly very well known to Jose Mourionho and Roman Abramovich. Zahavi has a fair bit of form as an agent and deal maker, he brokered the deal that took Rio Ferdinand to Man U from Leeds, negotiated his mammoth wage rise last year, as well as Veron's transfer from Lazio to Man U. Zahavi also featured in the Ashley Cole/Chelsea tapping up story - Cole, his agent met with Mourinho and Peter Kenyon, plus Zahavi at a London hotel a year or so back. Another deal he was involved in was the transfer of Louis Saha to Man U, where allegedly he earnt £750K in commission. Sven Goran Eriksson also met with Zahavi in 2003 when it was rumoured that Chelsea were interested in offering him the job as manager of Chelsea. Unfortunately for England fans everywhere that story was leaked with the consequence that SGE was forced to publically deny that he was interested in managing Chelsea and I think subsequently signed a longer contract with the FA, and at better money. Zahavi also advised Abramovich on the takeover of Chelsea and has been acting as an agent and ruining football for over two decades.
I can't believe that these two players, both highly talented have gone to WHU, a middle ranking EPL team not even in the Champion's League, for football reasons, or because WHU can offer them the highest salaries. Not with the sort of clubs like Arsenal, Man U and Real Madrid etc etc apparently after them. It doesn't make any kind of sense.
I agree BFR, can't get my head around it. Fantastic if your a Hammer though.
The situation of companies 'owning' players has been a feature in South and Central America for years. I think Shittu and Woodgate have been the only cases in this country. I really hope this is not something that will become more common here.
There are quite a few MSI alumni at various European clubs, most seem to be like WHU not top rank teams but good quality outfits, with good coaches, playing in the CL or UEFA cup. I believe Riquelme and Saviola at Barcelona are MSI graduates...
I think the investigative journalists will get their teeth into this over the next few days. Kia Joorabchian, who owns MSI, has refuted all allegations that Abramovich is financially involved and that wouldn't surprise me, what would the few million he could make from trading footballers be to someone who is a multi-billionaire? However he does want Chelsea to become European champions and what better than to have a friendly relationship with MSI to buy talented young players like Tevez, and with his habit of paying over the odds prices it's worth an agent like MSI staying friendly with him.
However not every South American star makes it in the EPL, think of Veron and Forlan who came here with great records and bombed. So what better than a bit of work experience at WHU, some UEFA football added in and then in a year or two one or both get's transferred across town.
WHU get the services of two good young players on the cheap, MSI have a return on their investment with further riches to come if they turn out to be as good as they are cracked up to be and Chelsea have two trained up players ready and waiting. Moreover they've not only kept them out the hands of Arsenal, Man U but are hopefully they will play well against them and take points off them. If in a year's time Chelsea don't buy them they'll go to an Italian or Spanish club having had their season in the European shop window, with WHU presumably benefitting from a profit sharing bonus. Everyone's a winner, except for the actual sport....
It'll be curious to see how they play against Chelsea...
"WHU get the services of two good young players on the cheap, MSI have a return on their investment with further riches to come if they turn out to be as good as they are cracked up to be and Chelsea have two trained up players ready and waiting. Moreover they've not only kept them out the hands of Arsenal, Man U but are hopefully they will play well against them and take points off them. If in a year's time Chelsea don't buy them they'll go to an Italian or Spanish club having had their season in the European shop window, with WHU presumably benefiting from a profit sharing bonus. Every one's a winner, except for the actual sport...."
But that scenario works if MSI are owned or influenced by Roman and if they are not. Chelsea can still outbid any other club in the world and so why would they worry about paying top dollar for the two now and see getting them for more than WHU have paid now as a good deal. CFC could just have easily bought them and loaned them out. The only problem being that one prem club can't take two loans from the same prem club.
As you say there are MSI "products" all over Europe. They are not all being linked with Chelsea so that suggests that this is a model that MSI have used before to make money and that it does not need the involvement of Chelsea to make it work. They may well be something going on and I think it should be out in the open as I said but for me the case is far from proved.
Anyway, it's it strange to have an in-depth and informed debate. I feel that I should called someone a "twonk" just to make everyone feel at home.
I think as said above, it kind of makes sence for MSIto sell them for a lower fee with a large sell on clause 70% of any profit made on them, stick them in a shop window for a season have them playing in UEFA cup and make a second chunk of money on them when they jump to the top tier of football ladder. It will be much easier for a European club West Ham to negotiate bigger money than Corinthians next season especially if something murky comes from any investigations...
I agree that they hardly seem ideal business partners but that is just more speculation about money laundering etc.
It could just be that they see south American players as undervalued assests which can be moved on a large profits to cash rich clubs (and West Ham) in Europe. The business model works whether they are up to something dodgy or not as far as I can see.
And before anyone asks to the best of my knowledge MSI are not buying up CAFC shares prior to the club coming off AIM : )
Hi Henry (Twonk!)...I'm trying to make sense of this, nothing much adds up, and I admit I'm guessing a bit. Abramovich certainly has the money to buy these players, even at inflated fees, loan them out for a season and wait to see if they make the grade before they actually play for Chelsea and be done with it. Presumably even he can't own every single player...
The MSI alumni in Europe seem to be mostly playing at clubs of West Ham's level, as with WHU they get talented kids at a fraction of the cost and a share of the profit if they go on to become galacticos. These clubs, the likes of Mallorca, Benfica, Porto, WHU, are hardly swimming in money and have to compete with the big boys both domestically and in the European competitions and consequently are perhaps prepared to do a deal with MSI where they sign a player, train him on, give him the shop window and in return in a season or two if their transfer value rockets they get their initial stake back, plus a share of the profit, with MSI taking the rest. I imagine that when it starts to get to serious money level that the likes of Real Madrid will do business with MSI but part of the deal is that they own 100% of the player, a situation that suits MSI quite nicely as their initial investment will at that point have been repaid many times over. At these type of clubs the players will get exactly the right sort of exposure they need to develop - if however they go to a big club, they could wind up like Scott Parker, earning good money in the stands while their career falters and consequently their transfer value diminishes.
Assuming that RA isn't behind MSI but a good friend of the boss it's my guess that unofficially he get's first dibbs on any talented players on their books, in the case of Tevez he/Mourinho couldn't see a place for him on Chelsea's current roster but with several major clubs calling and Tevez presumably being ambitious and wanting to play in Europe and earn lots of money, plus Corinthians wanting to cash in their stake he sanctions a move to the UK. But, there are two problems - will Tevez make it in European and more specifically English football, and he doesn't want Tevez playing against Chelsea, ok this might seem contradictory as they'll both be playing in the EPL but I figure that will be offset by West Ham being more of a threat to Arsenal and Man U etc and therefore helping Chelsea win the EPL.
The MSI model doesn't need Chelsea to make it work, but, it needs clubs willing to pay stupid sums of money in transfer fees and there are plenty of those even in the Bosman era who are more than willing to do that - eg from yesterday, Chelsea have paid Arsenal £5m for Ashley Cole, with Gallas going the other way, as Cole was valued at £20m that effectively values Gallas at £15m, who had just one year left on his contract, in other words Arsenal could have waited a year and got Gallas for nothing, is that madness or what?
I think over the next few days we'll discover more about this deal.
West Ham's double coup full of intrigue By David Bond
West Ham pulled off the most sensational swoop of transfer deadline day as they clinched the double signing of Argentine stars Carlos Tevez and Javier Mascherano, from Corinthians in Brazil.
But while the deal was the most eye-catching, it was also the most mysterious with neither club prepared to disclose the real sums of money involved or the length of the players' contracts.
All that West Ham would say is that the deal for both players is permanent, although it is understood that the package could eventually cost them an eye-watering £60 million.
That is highly unlikely as, in return for paying a small fee for the players and covering their wages now, West Ham have agreed to hefty sell-on clauses in the event of one of the bigger clubs in the Premiership, or on the continent, making a bid. It is believed that if a £30 million bid for either is tabled, then West Ham must sell or pay Corinthians the same amount to keep them.
In return, West Ham will also get a small percentage of any sell-on fee. Corinthians are also understood to have negotiated an option to buy them back at the same price West Ham have paid.
The deal is all the more intriguing because the ownership of the players is split three ways, between Corinthians, the club's London based parent company, Media Sports Investments (MSI), and a group of investment funds.
Further questions are certain to be prompted by the fact that MSI last year made a bid to buy West Ham for £75 million. That bid failed but there is bound to be speculation that the Tevez and Mascherano deal is just the start of a longer-term plan which will eventually see MSI assume control at Upton Park.
Kia Joorabchian, the Iranian-born Londoner who until recently fronted MSI and ran Corinthians, denies it is part of a takeover plan and insists the deal came about because of the good relationship built up with West Ham chairman Terry Brown during negotiations. Inevitably, the Israeli agent Pini Zahavi, who is close to Brown and Joorabchian, also played his part in this extraordinary deal.
"A lot of it was to do with the relationship we had with them from last year," Joorabchian said. "That made it very easy to get the deal done."
To add to the confusion, Joorabchian says he is no longer running MSI, a company he has repeatedly denied is owned by the exiled Russian billionaire, Boris Berezovsky. He says he resigned recently following the death of his father but has retained an interest in the ownership of Tevez and Mascherano.
Joorabchian says MSI are shortly to announce that they have abandoned their plan of buying shares in football clubs outside South America, although, as a free agent, there is presumably nothing to stop him making a move for West Ham or another Premiership club.
Amid the intrigue, it was easy to overlook the fact that West Ham had pulled off a remarkable coup. Tevez, a 22-year-old striker, and midfielder Maschenrano, also 22, joined Corinthians in a combined £20 million deal when MSI bought the club two years ago. They were being chased by Manchester United and Arsenal and Tevez is believed to have been subject to a £30 million bid from a Premiership club after the World Cup.
That Corinthians and MSI rejected that bid in favour of West Ham will only arouse further suspicions about the deal but manager Alan Pardew was understandably ecstatic. "What a fantastic day for West Ham United Football Club," he said. "I have no doubt that this deal will give us a real chance to compete with the very best teams in the Premiership and in Europe."
But for all the excitement, football authorities here and in Europe will be eyeing the deal nervously amid growing suspicions that some of the world's biggest clubs are operating as a cartel in the ownership of the world's best playing talent.
That link doesn't work but here is the annoucement...
LONDON (Reuters) - West Ham United said on Friday they had a received a takeover bid, a day after they surprised the transfer market by snatching up Argentine World Cup duo Carlos Tevez and Javier Mascherano.
The West Ham board added, however, in a statement on the stock exchange that the bid was unrelated to Thursday's player coup and at a very early stage of discussion.
"The Board confirms that it has had exploratory discussions in relation to a possible bid but these discussions are at a very early stage and there can be no certainty that an offer for West Ham will be forthcoming," it said.
"The Board also confirms that there is no contractual link between the signing of the players and the bid discussions," it added.
Tevez and Mascherano were signed from Brazilian club Corinthians, whose owners, the investment group MSI, were in negotiations to buy West Ham last year although no deal went through.
Comments
What is weak in the argument, and most conspiracy theories, is that the link between MSI and Chelsea hasn't been proved and if that is not true the whole thing collapses.
An alternative is that the players are effectively on loan to West Ham as MSI have retained part ownership and/or secured a massive sell on clause (40-60%) so that if and when they move in the summer MSI get another lump some. But that is just more speculation.
What is does show is that all football dealings should IMHO be out in the open. Fees, agents, sell ons, owners of contracts etc etc.
Another person behind MSI is the agent Pina Zahavi, who is certainly very well known to Jose Mourionho and Roman Abramovich. Zahavi has a fair bit of form as an agent and deal maker, he brokered the deal that took Rio Ferdinand to Man U from Leeds, negotiated his mammoth wage rise last year, as well as Veron's transfer from Lazio to Man U. Zahavi also featured in the Ashley Cole/Chelsea tapping up story - Cole, his agent met with Mourinho and Peter Kenyon, plus Zahavi at a London hotel a year or so back. Another deal he was involved in was the transfer of Louis Saha to Man U, where allegedly he earnt £750K in commission. Sven Goran Eriksson also met with Zahavi in 2003 when it was rumoured that Chelsea were interested in offering him the job as manager of Chelsea. Unfortunately for England fans everywhere that story was leaked with the consequence that SGE was forced to publically deny that he was interested in managing Chelsea and I think subsequently signed a longer contract with the FA, and at better money. Zahavi also advised Abramovich on the takeover of Chelsea and has been acting as an agent and ruining football for over two decades.
I can't believe that these two players, both highly talented have gone to WHU, a middle ranking EPL team not even in the Champion's League, for football reasons, or because WHU can offer them the highest salaries. Not with the sort of clubs like Arsenal, Man U and Real Madrid etc etc apparently after them. It doesn't make any kind of sense.
The situation of companies 'owning' players has been a feature in South and Central America for years. I think Shittu and Woodgate have been the only cases in this country. I really hope this is not something that will become more common here.
I think the investigative journalists will get their teeth into this over the next few days. Kia Joorabchian, who owns MSI, has refuted all allegations that Abramovich is financially involved and that wouldn't surprise me, what would the few million he could make from trading footballers be to someone who is a multi-billionaire? However he does want Chelsea to become European champions and what better than to have a friendly relationship with MSI to buy talented young players like Tevez, and with his habit of paying over the odds prices it's worth an agent like MSI staying friendly with him.
However not every South American star makes it in the EPL, think of Veron and Forlan who came here with great records and bombed. So what better than a bit of work experience at WHU, some UEFA football added in and then in a year or two one or both get's transferred across town.
WHU get the services of two good young players on the cheap, MSI have a return on their investment with further riches to come if they turn out to be as good as they are cracked up to be and Chelsea have two trained up players ready and waiting. Moreover they've not only kept them out the hands of Arsenal, Man U but are hopefully they will play well against them and take points off them. If in a year's time Chelsea don't buy them they'll go to an Italian or Spanish club having had their season in the European shop window, with WHU presumably benefitting from a profit sharing bonus. Everyone's a winner, except for the actual sport....
It'll be curious to see how they play against Chelsea...
But that scenario works if MSI are owned or influenced by Roman and if they are not. Chelsea can still outbid any other club in the world and so why would they worry about paying top dollar for the two now and see getting them for more than WHU have paid now as a good deal. CFC could just have easily bought them and loaned them out. The only problem being that one prem club can't take two loans from the same prem club.
As you say there are MSI "products" all over Europe. They are not all being linked with Chelsea so that suggests that this is a model that MSI have used before to make money and that it does not need the involvement of Chelsea to make it work. They may well be something going on and I think it should be out in the open as I said but for me the case is far from proved.
Anyway, it's it strange to have an in-depth and informed debate. I feel that I should called someone a "twonk" just to make everyone feel at home.
this is an article about the MSI owning Corinthians and money lanudering investigations that are going on -
http://www.sambafoot.com/en/articles/48_The_Truth_behind_Corinthians_Millions_page_2.html
I think as said above, it kind of makes sence for MSIto sell them for a lower fee with a large sell on clause 70% of any profit made on them, stick them in a shop window for a season have them playing in UEFA cup and make a second chunk of money on them when they jump to the top tier of football ladder. It will be much easier for a European club West Ham to negotiate bigger money than Corinthians next season especially if something murky comes from any investigations...
I agree that they hardly seem ideal business partners but that is just more speculation about money laundering etc.
It could just be that they see south American players as undervalued assests which can be moved on a large profits to cash rich clubs (and West Ham) in Europe. The business model works whether they are up to something dodgy or not as far as I can see.
And before anyone asks to the best of my knowledge MSI are not buying up CAFC shares prior to the club coming off AIM : )
The MSI alumni in Europe seem to be mostly playing at clubs of West Ham's level, as with WHU they get talented kids at a fraction of the cost and a share of the profit if they go on to become galacticos. These clubs, the likes of Mallorca, Benfica, Porto, WHU, are hardly swimming in money and have to compete with the big boys both domestically and in the European competitions and consequently are perhaps prepared to do a deal with MSI where they sign a player, train him on, give him the shop window and in return in a season or two if their transfer value rockets they get their initial stake back, plus a share of the profit, with MSI taking the rest. I imagine that when it starts to get to serious money level that the likes of Real Madrid will do business with MSI but part of the deal is that they own 100% of the player, a situation that suits MSI quite nicely as their initial investment will at that point have been repaid many times over. At these type of clubs the players will get exactly the right sort of exposure they need to develop - if however they go to a big club, they could wind up like Scott Parker, earning good money in the stands while their career falters and consequently their transfer value diminishes.
Assuming that RA isn't behind MSI but a good friend of the boss it's my guess that unofficially he get's first dibbs on any talented players on their books, in the case of Tevez he/Mourinho couldn't see a place for him on Chelsea's current roster but with several major clubs calling and Tevez presumably being ambitious and wanting to play in Europe and earn lots of money, plus Corinthians wanting to cash in their stake he sanctions a move to the UK. But, there are two problems - will Tevez make it in European and more specifically English football, and he doesn't want Tevez playing against Chelsea, ok this might seem contradictory as they'll both be playing in the EPL but I figure that will be offset by West Ham being more of a threat to Arsenal and Man U etc and therefore helping Chelsea win the EPL.
The MSI model doesn't need Chelsea to make it work, but, it needs clubs willing to pay stupid sums of money in transfer fees and there are plenty of those even in the Bosman era who are more than willing to do that - eg from yesterday, Chelsea have paid Arsenal £5m for Ashley Cole, with Gallas going the other way, as Cole was valued at £20m that effectively values Gallas at £15m, who had just one year left on his contract, in other words Arsenal could have waited a year and got Gallas for nothing, is that madness or what?
I think over the next few days we'll discover more about this deal.
West Ham's double coup full of intrigue
By David Bond
West Ham pulled off the most sensational swoop of transfer deadline day as they clinched the double signing of Argentine stars Carlos Tevez and Javier Mascherano, from Corinthians in Brazil.
But while the deal was the most eye-catching, it was also the most mysterious with neither club prepared to disclose the real sums of money involved or the length of the players' contracts.
All that West Ham would say is that the deal for both players is permanent, although it is understood that the package could eventually cost them an eye-watering £60 million.
That is highly unlikely as, in return for paying a small fee for the players and covering their wages now, West Ham have agreed to hefty sell-on clauses in the event of one of the bigger clubs in the Premiership, or on the continent, making a bid. It is believed that if a £30 million bid for either is tabled, then West Ham must sell or pay Corinthians the same amount to keep them.
In return, West Ham will also get a small percentage of any sell-on fee. Corinthians are also understood to have negotiated an option to buy them back at the same price West Ham have paid.
The deal is all the more intriguing because the ownership of the players is split three ways, between Corinthians, the club's London based parent company, Media Sports Investments (MSI), and a group of investment funds.
Further questions are certain to be prompted by the fact that MSI last year made a bid to buy West Ham for £75 million. That bid failed but there is bound to be speculation that the Tevez and Mascherano deal is just the start of a longer-term plan which will eventually see MSI assume control at Upton Park.
Kia Joorabchian, the Iranian-born Londoner who until recently fronted MSI and ran Corinthians, denies it is part of a takeover plan and insists the deal came about because of the good relationship built up with West Ham chairman Terry Brown during negotiations. Inevitably, the Israeli agent Pini Zahavi, who is close to Brown and Joorabchian, also played his part in this extraordinary deal.
"A lot of it was to do with the relationship we had with them from last year," Joorabchian said. "That made it very easy to get the deal done."
To add to the confusion, Joorabchian says he is no longer running MSI, a company he has repeatedly denied is owned by the exiled Russian billionaire, Boris Berezovsky. He says he resigned recently following the death of his father but has retained an interest in the ownership of Tevez and Mascherano.
Joorabchian says MSI are shortly to announce that they have abandoned their plan of buying shares in football clubs outside South America, although, as a free agent, there is presumably nothing to stop him making a move for West Ham or another Premiership club.
Amid the intrigue, it was easy to overlook the fact that West Ham had pulled off a remarkable coup. Tevez, a 22-year-old striker, and midfielder Maschenrano, also 22, joined Corinthians in a combined £20 million deal when MSI bought the club two years ago. They were being chased by Manchester United and Arsenal and Tevez is believed to have been subject to a £30 million bid from a Premiership club after the World Cup.
That Corinthians and MSI rejected that bid in favour of West Ham will only arouse further suspicions about the deal but manager Alan Pardew was understandably ecstatic. "What a fantastic day for West Ham United Football Club," he said. "I have no doubt that this deal will give us a real chance to compete with the very best teams in the Premiership and in Europe."
But for all the excitement, football authorities here and in Europe will be eyeing the deal nervously amid growing suspicions that some of the world's biggest clubs are operating as a cartel in the ownership of the world's best playing talent.
Chelsea's new feeder club?
LONDON (Reuters) - West Ham United said on Friday they had a received a takeover bid, a day after they surprised the transfer market by snatching up Argentine World Cup duo Carlos Tevez and Javier Mascherano.
The West Ham board added, however, in a statement on the stock exchange that the bid was unrelated to Thursday's player coup and at a very early stage of discussion.
"The Board confirms that it has had exploratory discussions in relation to a possible bid but these discussions are at a very early stage and there can be no certainty that an offer for West Ham will be forthcoming," it said.
"The Board also confirms that there is no contractual link between the signing of the players and the bid discussions," it added.
Tevez and Mascherano were signed from Brazilian club Corinthians, whose owners, the investment group MSI, were in negotiations to buy West Ham last year although no deal went through.
Pardon me. I fixed it...