LOL and of course those dear salt of the earth Labour peeps have all been down the pit aint they ? they dont send their kids to public school and call em selves "socialists" do they ---Diane Abbott.
IMO they have destroyed the UK as the UK ---devolution for some but not the people of England they ignore the majority at every opertunity for any type of minority-----they operate a human rights act that protects the scum. Tough on crime and the cayses of crime----British jobs for British workers----the NONE vote on Europe----the fact that anyone who challanged their numbers on new imigration was either a racist or a nazi.----------------f**king disaster. Tories ?wave the flag when it suits them to -----better ? i doubt it---------but worse ? cant possibly be. IMO of course. T
[cite]Posted By: Airman Brown[/cite]I personally think that Brown should go, Labour should have a leadership ballot and we should probably have a general election this autumn. You can't really have a sensible General Election if one of the major parties has no permanent leader, you can't have one in late July or August by convention because of holidays and really we need to know what all incumbent MPs have been up to with their expenses before they stand again.
The political system is broken, does not have public confidence or respect and we need constitutional reform to reconnect voters with the elected politicians. Changing one set of politicians for another won't change that fundmental truth. It's very unlikely that an incoming Tory government would deliver much in that respect unless forced to do so and at the least the main parties should have to set out their stall on constitutional change in a very specific way so there is no room for backsliding. Better to have a referendum on constitutional change in tandem with the General Election, but that will take time to set up.
In terms of changing PM between elections, there's nothing new about this. People who voted for the Tories in 1987 didn't expect to get John Major from 1990 to 1992, Harold Wilson was succeeded by Jim Callaghan from 1976-79 and the Tories did it regularly in the 1950s and early 60s, with Eden succeeding Churchill, Macmillan succeeding Eden and Douglas-Home succeeding Macmillan, all without a General Election. From recollection only Eden called one quickly (or even within the following year). Of course Churchill took over from Chamberlain without an election as well, but that was during the war.
I agree with all of that AB, what kind of constitutional change do you envisage? A change to the voting system, a change to the structure of Parliament, or both?
This is the bingaddick 10 point plan to reform the constitution:
1. We need a written constitution and bill of rights. Such constitution should enshrine what we believe to be fundamental rights and where power/sovereignity rests. No constitutional changes should be made without either a referendum or a 70% majority in both Houses.
2. We need a separation of the executive and the legislature so that MPs can carry out their role as peoples representatives in holding the executive to account.
3. We need a supreme court which adjudicates on the balance of powers between the executive and the legislature and as regards which forum (national or UK) has supremacy in respect of legislation passed in each parliament.
4. We need direct elections for the Prime Minister
5. We need fixed term parliaments
I know this is pretty much the American system. We need to tweak it to make it our own, but we need to get away from the "whipping!" system and the unwritten/uncodified nature of our constitutional position.
5. I'd also dis-establish the Church of England. Might as well be done at the same time. It's anachronistic and out of place in a secular society
6. I personally would abolish the Monarchy. I'd leave decisions as to whether to sack/impeach Prime Ministers/executive members to the Supreme Court
7. I'd go for a Federal UK Parliament with fewer MPs elected to it, plus an elected Federal Upper House.
8. I'd create an English Parliament and beef up the Welsh Assembly to Parliament status so that England, Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales have identical powers. All MPs of each parliament elected under a first past the post and "top up" system as they have for the Scottish Parliament. It's working OK so use it as the model for all.
9. UK Prime Minister elected on a first past the post basis by UK wide single ballot
10. Elections to the UK Federal Parliament to be by single transferable vote system (like in Northern Ireland) where people vote their first, and second preferences and a candidate must get more than 50% of the first preference votes to be elected, otherwise the votes of the candidate with the least votes is eliminated and his votes allocated to to each of the second preferences until one candidate has over 50% of the votes.
[cite]Posted By: Airman Brown[/cite]I personally think that Brown should go, Labour should have a leadership ballot and we should probably have a general election this autumn. You can't really have a sensible General Election if one of the major parties has no permanent leader, you can't have one in late July or August by convention because of holidays and really we need to know what all incumbent MPs have been up to with their expenses before they stand again.
The political system is broken, does not have public confidence or respect and we need constitutional reform to reconnect voters with the elected politicians. Changing one set of politicians for another won't change that fundmental truth. It's very unlikely that an incoming Tory government would deliver much in that respect unless forced to do so and at the least the main parties should have to set out their stall on constitutional change in a very specific way so there is no room for backsliding. Better to have a referendum on constitutional change in tandem with the General Election, but that will take time to set up.
In terms of changing PM between elections, there's nothing new about this. People who voted for the Tories in 1987 didn't expect to get John Major from 1990 to 1992, Harold Wilson was succeeded by Jim Callaghan from 1976-79 and the Tories did it regularly in the 1950s and early 60s, with Eden succeeding Churchill, Macmillan succeeding Eden and Douglas-Home succeeding Macmillan, all without a General Election. From recollection only Eden called one quickly (or even within the following year). Of course Churchill took over from Chamberlain without an election as well, but that was during the war.
I agree with all of that AB, what kind of constitutional change do you envisage? A change to the voting system, a change to the structure of Parliament, or both?
This is the bingaddick 10 point plan to reform the constitution:
1. We need a written constitution and bill of rights. Such constitution should enshrine what we believe to be fundamental rights and where power/sovereignity rests. No constitutional changes should be made without either a referendum or a 70% majority in both Houses.
2. We need a separation of the executive and the legislature so that MPs can carry out their role as peoples representatives in holding the executive to account.
3. We need a supreme court which adjudicates on the balance of powers between the executive and the legislature and as regards which forum (national or UK) has supremacy in respect of legislation passed in each parliament.
4. We need direct elections for the Prime Minister
5. We need fixed term parliaments
I know this is pretty much the American system. We need to tweak it to make it our own, but we need to get away from the "whipping!" system and the unwritten/uncodified nature of our constitutional position.
5. I'd also dis-establish the Church of England. Might as well be done at the same time. It's anachronistic and out of place in a secular society
6. I personally would abolish the Monarchy. I'd leave decisions as to whether to sack/impeach Prime Ministers/executive members to the Supreme Court
7. I'd go for a Federal UK Parliament with fewer MPs elected to it, plus an elected Federal Upper House.
8. I'd create an English Parliament and beef up the Welsh Assembly to Parliament status so that England, Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales have identical powers. All MPs of each parliament elected under a first past the post and "top up" system as they have for the Scottish Parliament. It's working OK so use it as the model for all.
9. UK Prime Minister elected on a first past the post basis by UK wide single ballot
10. Elections to the UK Federal Parliament to be by single transferable vote system (like in Northern Ireland) where people vote their first, and second preferences and a candidate must get more than 50% of the first preference votes to be elected, otherwise the votes of the candidate with the least votes is eliminated and his votes allocated to to each of the second preferences until one candidate has over 50% of the votes.
Bing one day you and I should meet over a beer or 3 and chew the political cud. We may or may not agree but it is evident you have a genuine passionate interest in politics and I'd say the same of GH, BFR, Henry and of course the good Airman.
If we dont have a general election before October and the Irish vote yes on the EU treaty will we lose the right to have a referendum ?
do any of the other Parties mean what they say about allowing us to vote on the issue or will they remove their word also?
can someone please answer the questions i asked as i would really like to know the answers as the man of the house i believe i should know but i dont want to admit i dont ;-)
1. Not illegal but definitely immoral
2. The Tories only made their referendum promise to try and undermine UKIP. They will drop it if (when) the Irish vote YES
3. The only anti EU parties are UKIP and the BNP. Some English democrats claim to be anti EU but separating the UK is somewhat similar to EU regionalisation IMHO.
LG
ta very much mate we are fooooking screwed is what you are all saying if we dont get a referendum from Cameron all morale high ground that they claim to have will be long gone
My god, wasn't Blair a slippery operator if ever there was one....he kept Brown hanging on and hanging on until he saw the writing was on the wall on the home front and the rest of the world was heading to hell in a hand cart by way of a catastrophic recession and promptly said...."Here ya go then Gordon old son, I've kept my promise....it's all yours."
Talk about getting out when the going was good (or at least reasonable ).......immaculate timing and clearly by design not by luck!
[cite]Posted By: SoundAsa£[/cite]My god, wasn't Blair a slippery operator if ever there was one....he kept Brown hanging on and hanging on until he saw the writing was on the wall on the home front and the rest of the world was heading to hell in a hand cart by way of a catastrophic recession and promptly said...."Here ya go then Gordon old son, I've kept my promise....it's all yours."
Talk about getting out when the going was good (or at least reasonable ).......immaculate timing and clearly by design not by luck!
Yes I agree and have always thought exactly the same.
Who timed things the best though Blair or Curbs ? :-) (And I know Curbs would have stayed a further year)
For me there are two tragedies. Firstly the disappearance of a Labour party that once stood for ordinary people protecting them against the excesses of the rich and powerful, secondly the loss of honour and decent behaviour by too many MP's across the political spectrum which has led to the near total alienation of voters from the parliamentary system. Ironically, although Gordon Brown has lost the confidence of the nation and (predictably) the Blairites within his party, I don't want to see him go at this moment. He may have a total absence of PR skills but he undoubtedly has great experience and for me the overwhelming priority is stability to see us through the recession. I have absolutely no idea what the Conservatives would do because they still haven't told us, I do observe that GB is well respected on the wider political stage and the markets seem still to be behind him. I'm not remotely happy with Labour, but I fear the Tories much much more.
Well put stilladdicted. Cameron and his spivs haven't done anything to justify their lead in the polls. They are benefiting from Labour fatigue and in fighting added to by Gordon Brown's lack of PR skills and chariama (as pointed out by SoundAas£) . I am old enough to remember the previous Tory 'rule' where all the current economic ills were born. Brown's mistake was not doing anything about more regulation in the financial sector when he was at the Treasury. So to an extent he is paying the price now. Also remember it was him who destablised the Labour Party by back stabbibg Blair. So you 'reap what you sow'. Unfortunately it will be the country that pays by having Eton boys running things!
[cite]Posted By: Chaz Hill[/cite]Well put stilladdicted. Cameron and his spivs haven't done anything to justify their lead in the polls. They are benefiting from Labour fatigue and in fighting added to by Gordon Brown's lack of PR skills and chariama (as pointed out by SoundAas£) . I am old enough to remember the previous Tory 'rule' where all the current economic ills were born. Brown's mistake was not doing anything about more regulation in the financial sector when he was at the Treasury. So to an extent he is paying the price now. Also remember it was him who destablised the Labour Party by back stabbibg Blair. So you 'reap what you sow'. Unfortunately it will be the country that pays by having Eton boys running things!
Sterotyping nowadays is old hat Chaz....you can't put a cigarette paper between them....Eton boys blimey I haven't heard that expression since the 60's FFS!!
You may not have heard that term since the 60's but prepare yourself to hear it a lot more in the run up to the next election. I think it is a big issue (the leaders of a government all coming from a small and insulated strata of our society) and Labour should emphasise that issue big time! See a couple of quotes from a Times Online article in Oct 06 below.
'Behind the rhetoric, the reality is that Cameron’s inner circle is packed with Old Etonians like Toppo. Not since Harold Macmillan was Tory prime minister in the 1950s have Etonians held such sway.
At one point Macmillan had six in his cabinet. Among Cameron’s inner circle, no fewer than five went to his old school. They include Oliver Letwin, his head of policy; Edward Llewellyn, chief of staff; Danny Kruger, chief speechwriter; George Bridges, head of campaigns; and Zac Goldsmith, his environmental guru.
In addition, Cameron’s shadow ministerial team boasts Letwin and 12 other Old Etonians — including Hugo Swire, the culture spokesman, and Boris Johnson, the higher education spokesman.'
'Over the years Cameron’s Eton gang have helped each other to advance. Now they look towards exerting greater influence — in government.
Who is the real Cameron — is he a moderniser or is he quietly bringing back the old boy network? And is Eton an advantage or a political millstone when it comes to fighting Labour in what is likely to be a brutal new parliamentary session? John Prescott, the blustering deputy prime minister, got an early blow in: “I see a bit of ‘class’ is coming back with Cameron and his outfit, the Eton mafia. We (Labour) are always better against class. It’s the Eton mob, isn’t it?” A senior adviser to Tony Blair added: “Cameron talks the talk but if you look at what he’s actually doing, it’s the Tories back to the 1950s all over again. The whole Eton thing will play very badly with the electorate.” '
[cite]Posted By: Chaz Hill[/cite]Well put stilladdicted. Cameron and his spivs haven't done anything to justify their lead in the polls. They are benefiting from Labour fatigue and in fighting added to by Gordon Brown's lack of PR skills and chariama (as pointed out by SoundAas£) . I am old enough to remember the previous Tory 'rule' where all the current economic ills were born. Brown's mistake was not doing anything about more regulation in the financial sector when he was at the Treasury. So to an extent he is paying the price now. Also remember it was him who destablised the Labour Party by back stabbibg Blair. So you 'reap what you sow'. Unfortunately it will be the country that pays by having Eton boys running things!
Is this the same fatigue and in fighting labour benefited from when Blair became PM? complete twaddle. Come home Conservatives your country needs you.
Nice one Red in SE8. I see Cameron now has an old Etonian chum (Geordie Greig) editing the Standard who has just employed Cameron's sister in law as a columnist. Very cozy. The rag will become even more of a mouthpiece for the "man with a plan" if that is possible!
Not sure what we need from the tories nothstandsteve. Any idea what Dave has in his "plan"? Nobody else seems to.
i don't care who it is or what they do but anyone other than curbs please. it's all gone stale,they've taken us as far as they can and we need someone to take us to the next level.
Dear Lord please FFS ------------how the f**k can ANYONE be worse than this lot of ? Old Labour now tell us the reason they are so f**ked is they aint left/socialist enough !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! yes thats it then please do go ultra left/total socialist-- sounds like a sound plan that.
every one of them should be put against a wall and shot---id buy the gun and the amo.
sorry Len couldnt have "nice" chat with the far left it would end in tears.
[cite]Posted By: nth london addick[/cite]listening to Paddy Pantsdown on Thursday question time i would have him as PM
Not my favourite person.
I've encountered him in the workplace albeit thirty years ago now. He tried (unsuccessfully) to humiliate a youngster (me) in order to try and show what a big man he was.
Comments
IMO they have destroyed the UK as the UK ---devolution for some but not the people of England they ignore the majority at every opertunity for any type of minority-----they operate a human rights act that protects the scum. Tough on crime and the cayses of crime----British jobs for British workers----the NONE vote on Europe----the fact that anyone who challanged their numbers on new imigration was either a racist or a nazi.----------------f**king disaster. Tories ?wave the flag when it suits them to -----better ? i doubt it---------but worse ? cant possibly be. IMO of course.
T
I agree with all of that AB, what kind of constitutional change do you envisage? A change to the voting system, a change to the structure of Parliament, or both?
This is the bingaddick 10 point plan to reform the constitution:
1. We need a written constitution and bill of rights. Such constitution should enshrine what we believe to be fundamental rights and where power/sovereignity rests. No constitutional changes should be made without either a referendum or a 70% majority in both Houses.
2. We need a separation of the executive and the legislature so that MPs can carry out their role as peoples representatives in holding the executive to account.
3. We need a supreme court which adjudicates on the balance of powers between the executive and the legislature and as regards which forum (national or UK) has supremacy in respect of legislation passed in each parliament.
4. We need direct elections for the Prime Minister
5. We need fixed term parliaments
I know this is pretty much the American system. We need to tweak it to make it our own, but we need to get away from the "whipping!" system and the unwritten/uncodified nature of our constitutional position.
5. I'd also dis-establish the Church of England. Might as well be done at the same time. It's anachronistic and out of place in a secular society
6. I personally would abolish the Monarchy. I'd leave decisions as to whether to sack/impeach Prime Ministers/executive members to the Supreme Court
7. I'd go for a Federal UK Parliament with fewer MPs elected to it, plus an elected Federal Upper House.
8. I'd create an English Parliament and beef up the Welsh Assembly to Parliament status so that England, Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales have identical powers. All MPs of each parliament elected under a first past the post and "top up" system as they have for the Scottish Parliament. It's working OK so use it as the model for all.
9. UK Prime Minister elected on a first past the post basis by UK wide single ballot
10. Elections to the UK Federal Parliament to be by single transferable vote system (like in Northern Ireland) where people vote their first, and second preferences and a candidate must get more than 50% of the first preference votes to be elected, otherwise the votes of the candidate with the least votes is eliminated and his votes allocated to to each of the second preferences until one candidate has over 50% of the votes.
Bing one day you and I should meet over a beer or 3 and chew the political cud. We may or may not agree but it is evident you have a genuine passionate interest in politics and I'd say the same of GH, BFR, Henry and of course the good Airman.
LG
ta very much mate we are fooooking screwed is what you are all saying if we dont get a referendum from Cameron all morale high ground that they claim to have will be long gone
Talk about getting out when the going was good (or at least reasonable ).......immaculate timing and clearly by design not by luck!
Yes I agree and have always thought exactly the same.
Who timed things the best though Blair or Curbs ? :-) (And I know Curbs would have stayed a further year)
Sterotyping nowadays is old hat Chaz....you can't put a cigarette paper between them....Eton boys blimey I haven't heard that expression since the 60's FFS!!
'Behind the rhetoric, the reality is that Cameron’s inner circle is packed with Old Etonians like Toppo. Not since Harold Macmillan was Tory prime minister in the 1950s have Etonians held such sway.
At one point Macmillan had six in his cabinet. Among Cameron’s inner circle, no fewer than five went to his old school. They include Oliver Letwin, his head of policy; Edward Llewellyn, chief of staff; Danny Kruger, chief speechwriter; George Bridges, head of campaigns; and Zac Goldsmith, his environmental guru.
In addition, Cameron’s shadow ministerial team boasts Letwin and 12 other Old Etonians — including Hugo Swire, the culture spokesman, and Boris Johnson, the higher education spokesman.'
'Over the years Cameron’s Eton gang have helped each other to advance. Now they look towards exerting greater influence — in government.
Who is the real Cameron — is he a moderniser or is he quietly bringing back the old boy network? And is Eton an advantage or a political millstone when it comes to fighting Labour in what is likely to be a brutal new parliamentary session? John Prescott, the blustering deputy prime minister, got an early blow in: “I see a bit of ‘class’ is coming back with Cameron and his outfit, the Eton mafia. We (Labour) are always better against class. It’s the Eton mob, isn’t it?” A senior adviser to Tony Blair added: “Cameron talks the talk but if you look at what he’s actually doing, it’s the Tories back to the 1950s all over again. The whole Eton thing will play very badly with the electorate.” '
Is this the same fatigue and in fighting labour benefited from when Blair became PM? complete twaddle. Come home Conservatives your country needs you.
Not sure what we need from the tories nothstandsteve. Any idea what Dave has in his "plan"? Nobody else seems to.
Hasn't told us quite how yet, but hey-ho.
every one of them should be put against a wall and shot---id buy the gun and the amo.
sorry Len couldnt have "nice" chat with the far left it would end in tears.
Come on you REDS. P**S off you BLUES.
We oiks know our place. Tugging of forelocks all round.
Not my favourite person.
I've encountered him in the workplace albeit thirty years ago now. He tried (unsuccessfully) to humiliate a youngster (me) in order to try and show what a big man he was.