all this about no income over the summer, how about season ticket renewals just come in and to come over that period?
also how can Liverpool buy him apparently before season is over, or is it technically outside the window that the registration will change?
I think Shelvey and Bailey ZZ and others have suffered from the Pardewkinson approach of trying to play all our best players at once regardless of their best position, which in my view has failed to get the best out of them
[cite]Posted By: razil[/cite]also how can Liverpool buy him apparently before season is over, or is it technically outside the window that the registration will change
You can sign a player any time you like.
But you can't register him to be eligible to play outside of the transfer windows/deadline.
[cite]Posted By: Scoham[/cite]I agree about his weaknesses, his lack of acceleration and reactions. In time his reactions should improve with experience, and I hope in the next couple of years he can improve on his strength and acceleration.
If you watch a player like Frank Lampard, you soon realise that acceleration and quick feet over that 1st half yard is noticeably lacking.
But where Lampard compensates is with technique and footballing intelligence: a superb 1st touch, and an abilty to read the game well with great anticipation and movement off the ball.
So lack of acceleration needn't be a problem for Jonjo, even at the highest level.
I agree, I wasn't suggesting he can improve it much. If he can improve it slightly and his reading of the game a lot, it'll make him look quicker and better for it. He doesn't need to be quite as quick as Gerrard to play at a high level.
In fact he might end up a more similar player to Lampard than Gerrard.
Good point razil, I think that's a problem many managers have had. England a good example at much higher level
than Charlton
Parker looked distinctly lightweight when he first came into the Charlton team and would disappear during matches but after careful nursing by Curbs for a bit got packed off to Norwich and came back a tougher, more confident complete player with the all action up and at them style we remember so well and still miss.
Lee Bowyer had the happy knack of popping up with goals when he broke into the side which compensated for the long periods of time during matches whereby he disappeared. We also had so few goals elsewhere in the side at the time his contribution was truly valued. For example,love them as we did, Carl leaburn and Garry Nelson were not especially prolific.
Jonjo has the potential to emulate both these players and in my book has started his career at least as well if not better than both Parker and Bowyer and neither of them have done badly. I don't recall Jonjo ever going missing during games which the other two both did at 17/18.
Good article. Most important issue is the financial state of the club that this sale indicates. Sad to lose a real young talent but at the moment I am more concerned that Charlton are just a hop and a skip from financial meltdown.
[quote][cite]Posted By: ShootersHillGuru) I am more concerned that Charlton are just a hop and a skip from financial meltdown.[/quote]
And I'd like to know just what 'financial meltdown' would mean. Also, are we worse off then other clubs in this league? If so, why? Is it still players' wages? And running costs of The Valley?
Ok a few "back of envelope" calculations based on nothing in particular.
We have apparently sold 6,000 season tickets so if one assumes an average price of £250 (In arriving at this figure I've tried to factor in concessions as well as assuming, possibly wrongly, that most season ticket holders will be in the Covered End ie the cheaper part of the ground) we have an assured turnover of £1.5 million.
If we assume a desirable ratio of wages to turnover is (say) 70% we are looking at a wages bill of £1.05 million. If an average wage for a league 1 player is (say) 3k a week then we can afford precisely 6.73 players!
We obviously have rather more players than that plus non-football staff at least two of whom are allegedly also on around £3k a week.
In the depths of league 1 I'm not aware of too many more income streams other than bums on seats. I've not factored in non-season ticket income because we simply don't know how many will attend each week. However let's assume £500k extra turnover, being a mixture of tv income and projected matchday sales, which takes total turnover up to £2 millon. That extra £500k (at our 70% wage ratio) allows us another 2.24 players!
These simplistic calculations illustrate graphically to me why the Club is losing money hand over fist and AFKA's figures are probably realistic rather than pessimistic.
The depressing thing is that there are a limited number of good players who can be sold to paper over the cracks and logically selling good players leads to poorer performances leads to fewer bums on seats....
I think if you are looking for financial sense..... or trying to balance the books Len,cannot see the figures adding up!..... unless you indulge in 'creative accountancy' we will have more chance of signing the Brazillian national team on a free transfer with Alex Feguson as manager than trying to do that!. The fact that players wages have been such a disproportianate percentage against income, despite what I am sure has been frantic activity to jettisson any high earning players since the prem days,goes to show the hopeless income/expenditure that clubs face when falling out of the top flight, not only at this club , but others as well!
The fact that last year we had far too big a squad, probably out of players refusing to budge, and that again this year having a squad of 30 plus as well as a high executive club ratio of management has not helped!
Peter Varney stated that the income from tv was £350,000 at this level if my memory is correct!, and as you state there seems little chance of additional revenue without draconian measures!
In the absence of fresh investment, or a takeover, both of which I think is highly dubious!, I think the passing around of the hat to the directors may not be as positive this time round!
In the shorterm, could not the season ticket offer that ended be re-introduced to get some cash in for working capital!, what about a family special deal, 2 adults get you a free under 16, or some such offer!
I am sure that the marketing department have poured over these sort's of issues, one thing is for sure It aint easy! But to coin a phrase that the Chairman penned yesterday....... 'we have to get real' ....... 'real' cash in to this club.
Is this not a drawn out whine about stuff we already knew, dressed up as "insightful" by those that denied it? Given a few keyboards a work out, I guess
I have been saying all season that Shelvey has been played out of position. Even in the last five minutes at home to Norwich, when he came on and took up a deeper position, we had a reminder of his composure on the ball and his range of passing.
If he had played off Semedo this season in a five man midfield rather than off Burton I think we would have seen him dominate games and I don't think we would have been looking elsewhere for player of the season. It is so frustrating to me that our manager has ensured that we haven't seen the best of him - and now he has gone.
His game in the youth team was all about picking the ball up, setting attacks in motion and then arriving late in the box to convert any loose balls. From when Parkinson got hold of him all of that went out of the window.
Is this not a drawn out whine about stuff we already knew, dressed up as "insightful" by those that denied it? Given a few keyboards a work out, I guess..... Mortimerican quote
Not a perspective I would share,If discussing our best young player in years, being offloaded before we play some of the most important games in years, as well as trying to figure out what we as fans can do to help the club, and how we can go forward is a 'whine' then yes, I for one am a 'whino',better that than just lie back and say ' sweet FA' ......
letting a potential match winner (all be it from the bench) go before the playoffs have started/ finished is a joke , dress it up whatever way you like but if there indeed was a gamble against injury(insurance would be available) then the prize of promotion should have been worth taking it for, .... it's not believable , we should have sold him to them in january when they first enquired and we may have been able to get forster or whoever in on loan earlier
anyway parky must be leaving or getting a new contract cos we don't let managers run down the last year of their contracts .....
There is no way that this decision to sell was Parky's. I think he is a cr@p manager but no manager decides to sell a player (no matter what they think of them) just before play offs. It is a Board decision pure and simple and one with ludicrous timing IMO which just shows they are incapable of learning from lessons of the past.
That said, I am fed up of having managers at this club (Dowie, Pardew, Parkinson) who are simply incapable of getting the best out of their players. Jonjo could and should have taken this league by storm and with a decent manager in charge would have had far more involvement in matches and would have been our "Hoolahan" IMO.
[cite]Posted By: valleyman[/cite]There is no way that this decision to sell was Parky's. I think he is a cr@p manager but no manager decides to sell a player (no matter what they think of them) just before play offs. It is a Board decision pure and simple and one with ludicrous timing IMO which just shows they are incapable of learning from lessons of the past.
That said, I am fed up of having managers at this club (Dowie, Pardew, Parkinson) who are simply incapable of getting the best out of their players. Jonjo could and should have taken this league by storm and with a decent manager in charge would have had far more involvement in matches and would have been our "Hoolahan" IMO.
Pure conjecture re Shelvey...how do you know he'd have taken this league by storm had he have played more and then using that hypothesis as a weapon to hit Parkinson with....I for one don't rate him as highly as some of you.
I think he's a good young talent but I wouldn't describe him as a huge talent, I've seen alot better over the years...maybe I'll be proved wrong but he never exactly rocked my boat 'that much'. I've seen many a youngster come though our ranks that I consider better but that's just my opinion and he may well prove me wrong.
Having said that, I wish the lad the very best because he's a very likeable individual without an ounce of arrogance or flashyness about him, it will be very interesting to see how he develops.
[cite]Posted By: valleyman[/cite]There is no way that this decision to sell was Parky's. I think he is a cr@p manager but no manager decides to sell a player (no matter what they think of them) just before play offs. It is a Board decision pure and simple and one with ludicrous timing IMO which just shows they are incapable of learning from lessons of the past.
That said, I am fed up of having managers at this club (Dowie, Pardew, Parkinson) who are simply incapable of getting the best out of their players. Jonjo could and should have taken this league by storm and with a decent manager in charge would have had far more involvement in matches and would have been our "Hoolahan" IMO.
What a sad state of affairs.
Had Parky said to the board " I doubt very much that I'll be using him in the play offs" then the board would have had little option but to cash in. So in that respect I think Parky could have had a major say in the decision to sell.
I agree with everything else.
[cite]Posted By: queensland_addick[/cite]Had Parky said to the board " I doubt very much that I'll be using him in the play offs" then the board would have had little option but to cash in. So in that respect I think Parky could have had a major say in the decision to sell.
I agree with everything else.
Afraid you're right there. And Liverpool would have played hardball, saying the offer is time-limited. Easy to criticise when its not our money on the line.
Fine article, AFKA, and thanks for the excellent analyses of JonJo on the park, especially Scoham and Oggy. Essential reading for those of us who havent seen him so often. I am just sad that I wont see him again.
It is very hard to accept that no other top level clubs were interested at that price or higher
Also to let him go before we even know how we will do in the promotion race/playoffs is astonishing
Similar arguments re finances were made regarding the Reid sale
Obvious perhaps but I think selling your future is a regretable indicator of just how knackered we are, is this really worse than administration and a new owner putting cash in?
[cite]Posted By: razil[/cite]Obvious perhaps but I think selling your future is a regretable indicator of just how knackered we are, is this really worse than administration and a new owner putting cash in?
Regretfully I'm beginning to think the same. Continually having to sell off your most valuable assets is only likely to prolong the downward spiral. I'd rather hang on to our star youngsters, the future of the club, and deal with the points deduction.
[cite]Posted By: razil[/cite]Obvious perhaps but I think selling your future is a regretable indicator of just how knackered we are, is this really worse than administration and a new owner putting cash in?
Regretfully I'm beginning to think the same. Continually having to sell off your most valuable assets is only likely to prolong the downward spiral. I'd rather hang on to our star youngsters, the future of the club, and deal with the points deduction.
Sorry chaps, but I've gotta laugh at some of you youngsters, you're talking like this is something that's never happened before.....this has been going on at Charlton for over 50 years and with players that (with the greatest respect) leave young Jonjo standing, that's why I'm somewhat unfaised by this latest transfer of a young starlet.....what's new guys ...................what's new!
[cite]Posted By: razil[/cite]Obvious perhaps but I think selling your future is a regretable indicator of just how knackered we are, is this really worse than administration and a new owner putting cash in?
Regretfully I'm beginning to think the same. Continually having to sell off your most valuable assets is only likely to prolong the downward spiral. I'd rather hang on to our star youngsters, the future of the club, and deal with the points deduction.
Sorry chaps, but I've gotta laugh at some of you youngsters, you're talking like this is something that's never happened before.....this has been going on at Charlton for over 50 years and with players that (with the greatest respect) leave young Jonjo standing, that's why I'm somewhat unfaised by this latest transfer of a young starlet.....what's new guys ...................what's new!
I'm old enough to remember Billy Bonds going so I have witnessed them all from that time and the thought that one of our home grown goes before fulfilling his potential for us is still painful.
Sadly Jonjo going is rather similar to when Paul Walsh and Paul Elliot left (rather than say Scotty Parker) in the sense that it is a "forced" sale as opposed to someone who needed to prove himself at a "big" club. I thought those days were over.
Agree that us "old timers" have seen this before. Walsh, Elliot and lets not forget Gordon Watson and Lee Bowyer. Fact of life that clubs like Charlton HAVE to do this in order to survive. Big clubs prey on our talent and we kick downwards and prey on clubs smaller than us. It was ever thus.
football has changed completely since then, you just can't pick up bargains like you used to, so yes our young talent is still nicked this way, but replacing them much much much harder
Comments
all this about no income over the summer, how about season ticket renewals just come in and to come over that period?
also how can Liverpool buy him apparently before season is over, or is it technically outside the window that the registration will change?
I think Shelvey and Bailey ZZ and others have suffered from the Pardewkinson approach of trying to play all our best players at once regardless of their best position, which in my view has failed to get the best out of them
You can sign a player any time you like.
But you can't register him to be eligible to play outside of the transfer windows/deadline.
Shouldn't think be on the BDL thread?
In fact he might end up a more similar player to Lampard than Gerrard.
Good point razil, I think that's a problem many managers have had. England a good example at much higher level
than Charlton
Parker looked distinctly lightweight when he first came into the Charlton team and would disappear during matches but after careful nursing by Curbs for a bit got packed off to Norwich and came back a tougher, more confident complete player with the all action up and at them style we remember so well and still miss.
Lee Bowyer had the happy knack of popping up with goals when he broke into the side which compensated for the long periods of time during matches whereby he disappeared. We also had so few goals elsewhere in the side at the time his contribution was truly valued. For example,love them as we did, Carl leaburn and Garry Nelson were not especially prolific.
Jonjo has the potential to emulate both these players and in my book has started his career at least as well if not better than both Parker and Bowyer and neither of them have done badly. I don't recall Jonjo ever going missing during games which the other two both did at 17/18.
Let it go...There is no takeover
Can I have a badge now and get a card to join the clique?
And I'd like to know just what 'financial meltdown' would mean. Also, are we worse off then other clubs in this league? If so, why? Is it still players' wages? And running costs of The Valley?
I can't see why anyone would buy the club without it first entering administration. I would love to be wrong though. Troubled times ahead....
We have apparently sold 6,000 season tickets so if one assumes an average price of £250 (In arriving at this figure I've tried to factor in concessions as well as assuming, possibly wrongly, that most season ticket holders will be in the Covered End ie the cheaper part of the ground) we have an assured turnover of £1.5 million.
If we assume a desirable ratio of wages to turnover is (say) 70% we are looking at a wages bill of £1.05 million. If an average wage for a league 1 player is (say) 3k a week then we can afford precisely 6.73 players!
We obviously have rather more players than that plus non-football staff at least two of whom are allegedly also on around £3k a week.
In the depths of league 1 I'm not aware of too many more income streams other than bums on seats. I've not factored in non-season ticket income because we simply don't know how many will attend each week. However let's assume £500k extra turnover, being a mixture of tv income and projected matchday sales, which takes total turnover up to £2 millon. That extra £500k (at our 70% wage ratio) allows us another 2.24 players!
These simplistic calculations illustrate graphically to me why the Club is losing money hand over fist and AFKA's figures are probably realistic rather than pessimistic.
The depressing thing is that there are a limited number of good players who can be sold to paper over the cracks and logically selling good players leads to poorer performances leads to fewer bums on seats....
The fact that last year we had far too big a squad, probably out of players refusing to budge, and that again this year having a squad of 30 plus as well as a high executive club ratio of management has not helped!
Peter Varney stated that the income from tv was £350,000 at this level if my memory is correct!, and as you state there seems little chance of additional revenue without draconian measures!
In the absence of fresh investment, or a takeover, both of which I think is highly dubious!, I think the passing around of the hat to the directors may not be as positive this time round!
In the shorterm, could not the season ticket offer that ended be re-introduced to get some cash in for working capital!, what about a family special deal, 2 adults get you a free under 16, or some such offer!
I am sure that the marketing department have poured over these sort's of issues, one thing is for sure It aint easy! But to coin a phrase that the Chairman penned yesterday.......
'we have to get real' ....... 'real' cash in to this club.
I have been saying all season that Shelvey has been played out of position. Even in the last five minutes at home to Norwich, when he came on and took up a deeper position, we had a reminder of his composure on the ball and his range of passing.
If he had played off Semedo this season in a five man midfield rather than off Burton I think we would have seen him dominate games and I don't think we would have been looking elsewhere for player of the season. It is so frustrating to me that our manager has ensured that we haven't seen the best of him - and now he has gone.
His game in the youth team was all about picking the ball up, setting attacks in motion and then arriving late in the box to convert any loose balls. From when Parkinson got hold of him all of that went out of the window.
A lion led by a donkey.
Not a perspective I would share,If discussing our best young player in years, being offloaded before we play some of the most important games in years, as well as trying to figure out what we as fans can do to help the club, and how we can go forward is a 'whine' then yes, I for one am a 'whino',better that than just lie back and say ' sweet FA' ......
anyway parky must be leaving or getting a new contract cos we don't let managers run down the last year of their contracts .....
That said, I am fed up of having managers at this club (Dowie, Pardew, Parkinson) who are simply incapable of getting the best out of their players. Jonjo could and should have taken this league by storm and with a decent manager in charge would have had far more involvement in matches and would have been our "Hoolahan" IMO.
What a sad state of affairs.
Had Parky said to the board " I doubt very much that I'll be using him in the play offs" then the board would have had little option but to cash in. So in that respect I think Parky could have had a major say in the decision to sell.
I agree with everything else.
Afraid you're right there. And Liverpool would have played hardball, saying the offer is time-limited. Easy to criticise when its not our money on the line.
Fine article, AFKA, and thanks for the excellent analyses of JonJo on the park, especially Scoham and Oggy. Essential reading for those of us who havent seen him so often. I am just sad that I wont see him again.
It is very hard to accept that no other top level clubs were interested at that price or higher
Also to let him go before we even know how we will do in the promotion race/playoffs is astonishing
Similar arguments re finances were made regarding the Reid sale
Obvious perhaps but I think selling your future is a regretable indicator of just how knackered we are, is this really worse than administration and a new owner putting cash in?
Regretfully I'm beginning to think the same. Continually having to sell off your most valuable assets is only likely to prolong the downward spiral. I'd rather hang on to our star youngsters, the future of the club, and deal with the points deduction.
Sorry chaps, but I've gotta laugh at some of you youngsters, you're talking like this is something that's never happened before.....this has been going on at Charlton for over 50 years and with players that (with the greatest respect) leave young Jonjo standing, that's why I'm somewhat unfaised by this latest transfer of a young starlet.....what's new guys ...................what's new!
Cheers mate, you've made my day, just wish it was true!
LOL!!
I'm old enough to remember Billy Bonds going so I have witnessed them all from that time and the thought that one of our home grown goes before fulfilling his potential for us is still painful.
Sadly Jonjo going is rather similar to when Paul Walsh and Paul Elliot left (rather than say Scotty Parker) in the sense that it is a "forced" sale as opposed to someone who needed to prove himself at a "big" club. I thought those days were over.