[cite]Posted By: Algarveaddick[/cite] That is why PR is the only fair and sensible way forwrd, I honestly believe anyone who thinks or says otherwise is an enemy of democracy.
PR needs to representative.
So after yesterdays vote we'd now have 13 BNP MPs.
But surely Se9 they can only have complete control over their own domestic affairs if the country splits, my main question is who and how do things get paid for that those in Scotland and wales get diferently to us in England.
Until the country is seperated then there should be no seperate parliments or assemblys and those MP's that are representing their constituants should join together to make sure that scotland and wales dont get screwed over
[cite]Posted By: Algarveaddick[/cite]That is why PR is the only fair and sensible way forwrd, I honestly believe anyone who thinks or says otherwise is an enemy of democracy.
PR needs to representative.
So after yesterdays vote we'd now have 13 BNP MPs.
JAT.
i don't want to see any BNP MPS any more than you do, but that's democracy for you.
The loony fringe gets a voice some power and insome cases on a tight vote King making decisions. I'd feel pretty uncomfortable with a party i'd voted for having to make deals to push through legislation on various issues with the BNP and what they'd offered in return.
Completely agree, how ever many % of votes win then they should have PM
Agree with the current format in voting your local MP and they get the seat as its fair, but how can Gordon Brown still be prime-minister would bring shame on this country as would a hung parliament its all a joke! i voted for the first time and now thought might aswell not bother!
[cite]Posted By: T[/cite]Addickted - thats the problem with PR.
The loony fringe gets a voice some power and insome cases on a tight vote King making decisions. I'd feel pretty uncomfortable with a party i'd voted for having to make deals to push through legislation on various issues with the BNP and what they'd offered in return.
The government tells you you're living in paradise, the opposition tell you you're living in hell. Then there's an election. The government becomes the opposition and soon tell you you're living in hell, the opposition becomes the government and soon tell you you're living in paradise. Either way I'm still living in Plumstead - so I guess the opposition are nearly always right.
Given that we are about to enter, according to the experts, very severe economic times, and the level of the current deficit, I don't understand why the possibility of an emergency coalition between the Tories and Labour has not been discussed. Cameron would be the PM and Darling would be the Chancellor, and the rest of the cabinet split equally between Labour and the Tories. Maybe give Clegg a seat. No one could say such a government did not have a moral mandate. All parties would agree that such a government would either go full term or up to a specific point when the economy and deficit have improved by hiting pre set measurable targets.
I don't think the country is ready for another election any time soon and what we need now is a strong governement focused on dealing with these specific economic problems, with a clear mandate, rather than one focused one getting into a position where it thinks it can win another election in the next 12 months.
[cite]Posted By: johnnybev1987[/cite]Oh yeah and why the scots & welsh have a say bloody joke also its not a british government its english so only people in england should vote imo
That shows the most amazing amount of ignorance !!
[cite]Posted By: nth london addick[/cite]But surely Se9 they can only have complete control over their own domestic affairs if the country splits, my main question is who and how do things get paid for that those in Scotland and wales get diferently to us in England.
Until the country is seperated then there should be no seperate parliments or assemblys and those MP's that are representing their constituants should join together to make sure that scotland and wales dont get screwed over
They do have pretty much complete control over their domestic affairs but Westminster makes decision on other areas such as the decsion to go to war. If there were no Scottish MP's in Westminster then the decision to send Scottish (or Welsh or Irish) soldiers to war would be taken without the Scot's having a say in it - surely you can see that's wrong ?
I've never been able to figure out why the Scotland has free prescriptions, eye checks etc - I don't think it's as simple as they are "robbing" the English though.
But the Scottish MP's are in Westminister and surely they can have their say in those affairs, i dont have a problem with they way it is i just dont understand it,
why is there a need for 2 parliments you have your vote you pick an MP he goes to westminister to represent your views, you should have the same taxes,same laws as the rest of the country
in a time where this country is wasting billions whilst being in a financial meltdown surely running 2 parliments doubles the cost to the tax payer.
i just want to understand why they need their own parliment how much it costs and what benefits are there for the cost
I'd like to know how many people who say they are leaving the country when an election doesn't go their way, actually do it? As someone who has lived abroad a couple of times I'd like to know what these folk are actually expecting in these foreign utopian ideals? Where do these people go? Where is this perfect society we should all be living in?
At the end of the day the Tories have cocked it up once again. They have once again picked the wrong man to do the job, Cameron could not beat the wounded dog when he was down. If I was a Tory I'd be wondering at the sheer pathetic nature of their leadership, how could they have so completely cocked this up?
But I'm not a Tory, so I'm actually hoping for a coalition government of some kind, like it or not, for the next four years both labour and the conservatives will be wandering though the palaces of Westminster with their political begging bowls asking for support.
[cite]Posted By: johnnybev1987[/cite]Oh yeah and why the scots & welsh have a say bloody joke also its not a british government its english so only people in england should vote imo
[cite]Posted By: nth london addick[/cite]i just want to understand why they need their own parliment how much it costs and what benefits are there for the cost
Beacause the people of Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland should have their own, domestic affairs decided upon by their own people. That's what they want, and it's what they have voted for.
Then, when the UK needs to do something on an international level, they have a proportional say through the MP's they have in Westminster.
Re. the costs, I have no idea, probably pretty hefty, but there are quite alot of other things I would get rid of first before I started getting rid of democratic institutions.
[quote][cite]Posted By: Henry Irving[/cite][quote][cite]Posted By: nth london addick[/cite]Henners do people actually vote like that i mean if i wanted to vote Labour or Tory or Lib dem then i would i definatly wouldnt look to vote for someone else to stop someone getting in.
There is nowt as queer as folk[/quote]
Yes, they do.
If you look at seats where it is close the turn out is usually higher and the votes for the third party and others much lower as people vote tactically.
Not every one does it as you can see in Old Bexley where some labour bloke got a decent vote despite having no real chance to win.[/quote]
I lived in Norman Fowlers constituency in the 80's very safe, if not safest tory seat, no way labour would win, there was an outside chance the SDP/Lib alliance would so i voted them.
[/quote] * nolly clegg has just issued statement that party with most seats should govern.........until we have another election in a year which looks likely [/quote]
I think what Clegg actually said was that the party that won the most seats should have first dibs at forming a government, which matc hed his election comments.
the issue on perscription charges and uni fees shouldnt have been dealt with at domestic level they should have been national and therefore reamined the same as us then?
If not then should you be able to have your cake and eat it??
Or should their Westminster votes if we changed the way we vote score less points than an English constiuant?
So many questions going through my head and not enoughtime to consider them anyone of school age that is on here i am the reason why you should listen to your teachers
The inconsistency is that the assemblies/parliaments exist in Wales and Scotland but not England, either as one English parliament or a series of regional assemblies
After 13 years of power for Labour a desire for change could have seen them routed .... that Cameron, Ashcroft and Osbourne have failed so miserably to do it is a big failure for them.
As for PR, I don't agree with Henry that 23% of votes should equal 23% of seats, but 23% of votes getting 8% of seats is obviously very wrong and has got to be addressed. Multi-seat constituencies would be one way to address it.
theres too much to take in to account, i really could have done my local candiates coming aroung round to my house and polling my opinion, i didnt see 1 candidate at all and the leaflets i burned on the Chimena as they were full of shite
I must be the only person who thinks this is a great result. Labour look like they're out of power. The Conservatives never really looked likely to get an overall majority, so the further away from 326 the better for me. Cameron did a few shady deals with the DUP in Northern Ireland, which essentially would've held NI government spending constant at the expense of every other part of the country - including places like the Northeast and Scotland, which would lose out just because there were very few Conservative MPs there.
This gives the Conservatives the onus of doing a deal with the Lib Dems and making the cuts evenly across the country, which is fairer.
Nick Clegg always expected that to get into government he'd have to do a deal with one of the two parties. He's got European experience, so I'm sure he'll be able to compromise. He also has the incentive to do a deal that's reasonable to the Conservatives, because he'll never get into government otherwise.
This is David Cameron's first chance to prove his worth as a world leader. As PM you have to make compromises all the time and you have to negotiate with people who have no desire at all to make a deal with you. There's the economic crisis mentioned so many times on this thread to remind him of the importance of his job. If Cameron and the Conservatives throw their toys out of the pram and refuse to do a deal with the Lib Dems, then, in my opinion, they don't deserve a vote in the election that'd be called. Same would go for Labour or the Lib Dems for me.
PR might mean the BNP getting a few seats, but they're unlikely to be the kingmakers unless they're invited to be. I think the only far right groups that have recently got power in Europe are in Austria and Netherlands, where they're powerful and one of the biggest parties. That's not the case with the BNP. For example, every main Irish party refuses to go into government with Sinn Fein.
There are also lots of different ways to elect a Parliament by PR if that's what people want. The way some people talk you'd think no one has ever tried it. There's ways of having PR with local MPs and there's ways of having PR where seats are as close as possible to vote share.
I just see how a hung parliment is good for the country in a financial way, it cant be all the money people tell us that, it shows an undecided country and one that will have problems passing legislation, wether it be the working tax credits or the Job tax so greatly discussed as you can proberly guess from my posts
i dont know enough to pass comment but in simple terms i think its a disaster and an embaressment that a country like ours can potentially have Gordon Brown as PM when his party have haemorrged seats and the torries who got swept away in the last election can gain more seats than since the war and not be in power.
take away any call for political reform they can be looked into now any how.
the people voted on Labour, Conservitives and Libs not a coalition of any of those mentioned.
but i am being educated on here by those in a better position and if we have to return to the ballots i hope to understand it a bit better so i may disagree with myself soon enough ;-)
I've quickly scrolled through this thread and the thing that has struck me most, is the ignorance of how the UK system of government is laid out.
I'll try to keep it brief, but here goes.
Since 1998 when Blair declared "devolution to Scotland will stop the SNP in it's tracks" We have had a new style of Government.
The Scots were given their own Parliament (Alex Salmond the SNP leader of that Parliament, has christened it a Government)
The Welsh and N.Irish were given their own assemblies (not as powerful as the Scottish Parliament)
England was given 'F' all. England is the only country in the EU without it's own national legislature.
England is governed by the UK Government that sits in Westminster (we've all just voted for it) It is not "the English Parliament"
This is how the situation of Scottish MP's, Welsh MP's and N.Irish MP's voting on matters that are English only, came to be. Though English MP's cannot vote on Devolved matters in the other three nations.
When one considers that approx. 70% of matters are devolved to Scotland. It begs the question what do Scottish MP's do all day ? (other than interfere in Englands affairs)
The Scots have other elections to form the Scottish Parliament (Members of the Scottish Parliament [MSP's]) As do the Welsh (MWA's) and N.Irish (MNIA's)
Yesterday England as ever, voted overwhelmingly Tory. But won't get a Tory government.
This mess is called Democracy..........I call it an insult to England.
[cite]Posted By: Daggs[/cite]......Yesterday England as ever, voted overwhelmingly Tory. But won't get a Tory government.
This mess is called Democracy..........I call it an insult to England.
Just checked the BBC website and it shows that in England the Tories received less than 40% of the votes. I would not call that voting '..overwhelmingly Tory'.
Scotland has a Parliament. Wales, NI and London have assemblies.
There was a plan for England regional assemblies but there was clear evidence that people didn't want them, so they tested the water with a referendum in 2004 in the most promising region, the North East. People voted 3 to 1 against having an assembly.
Yesterday England as ever, voted overwhelmingly Tory
No they didn't - 60% of voters in England did not vote Tory.
Comments
PR needs to representative.
So after yesterdays vote we'd now have 13 BNP MPs.
JAT.
Until the country is seperated then there should be no seperate parliments or assemblys and those MP's that are representing their constituants should join together to make sure that scotland and wales dont get screwed over
i don't want to see any BNP MPS any more than you do, but that's democracy for you.
The loony fringe gets a voice some power and insome cases on a tight vote King making decisions. I'd feel pretty uncomfortable with a party i'd voted for having to make deals to push through legislation on various issues with the BNP and what they'd offered in return.
Agree with the current format in voting your local MP and they get the seat as its fair, but how can Gordon Brown still be prime-minister would bring shame on this country as would a hung parliament its all a joke! i voted for the first time and now thought might aswell not bother!
I don't think the country is ready for another election any time soon and what we need now is a strong governement focused on dealing with these specific economic problems, with a clear mandate, rather than one focused one getting into a position where it thinks it can win another election in the next 12 months.
Hard to pull the paradise card in your neck of the woods then. ;-)
That shows the most amazing amount of ignorance !!
They do have pretty much complete control over their domestic affairs but Westminster makes decision on other areas such as the decsion to go to war. If there were no Scottish MP's in Westminster then the decision to send Scottish (or Welsh or Irish) soldiers to war would be taken without the Scot's having a say in it - surely you can see that's wrong ?
I've never been able to figure out why the Scotland has free prescriptions, eye checks etc - I don't think it's as simple as they are "robbing" the English though.
why is there a need for 2 parliments you have your vote you pick an MP he goes to westminister to represent your views, you should have the same taxes,same laws as the rest of the country
in a time where this country is wasting billions whilst being in a financial meltdown surely running 2 parliments doubles the cost to the tax payer.
i just want to understand why they need their own parliment how much it costs and what benefits are there for the cost
At the end of the day the Tories have cocked it up once again. They have once again picked the wrong man to do the job, Cameron could not beat the wounded dog when he was down. If I was a Tory I'd be wondering at the sheer pathetic nature of their leadership, how could they have so completely cocked this up?
But I'm not a Tory, so I'm actually hoping for a coalition government of some kind, like it or not, for the next four years both labour and the conservatives will be wandering though the palaces of Westminster with their political begging bowls asking for support.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_of_the_United_Kingdom
Have a read when you get a chance
Beacause the people of Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland should have their own, domestic affairs decided upon by their own people. That's what they want, and it's what they have voted for.
Then, when the UK needs to do something on an international level, they have a proportional say through the MP's they have in Westminster.
Re. the costs, I have no idea, probably pretty hefty, but there are quite alot of other things I would get rid of first before I started getting rid of democratic institutions.
There is nowt as queer as folk[/quote]
Yes, they do.
If you look at seats where it is close the turn out is usually higher and the votes for the third party and others much lower as people vote tactically.
Not every one does it as you can see in Old Bexley where some labour bloke got a decent vote despite having no real chance to win.[/quote]
I lived in Norman Fowlers constituency in the 80's very safe, if not safest tory seat, no way labour would win, there was an outside chance the SDP/Lib alliance would so i voted them.
[/quote] * nolly clegg has just issued statement that party with most seats should govern.........until we have another election in a year which looks likely [/quote]
I think what Clegg actually said was that the party that won the most seats should have first dibs at forming a government, which matc hed his election comments.
the issue on perscription charges and uni fees shouldnt have been dealt with at domestic level they should have been national and therefore reamined the same as us then?
If not then should you be able to have your cake and eat it??
Or should their Westminster votes if we changed the way we vote score less points than an English constiuant?
So many questions going through my head and not enoughtime to consider them anyone of school age that is on here i am the reason why you should listen to your teachers
As for PR, I don't agree with Henry that 23% of votes should equal 23% of seats, but 23% of votes getting 8% of seats is obviously very wrong and has got to be addressed. Multi-seat constituencies would be one way to address it.
This gives the Conservatives the onus of doing a deal with the Lib Dems and making the cuts evenly across the country, which is fairer.
Nick Clegg always expected that to get into government he'd have to do a deal with one of the two parties. He's got European experience, so I'm sure he'll be able to compromise. He also has the incentive to do a deal that's reasonable to the Conservatives, because he'll never get into government otherwise.
This is David Cameron's first chance to prove his worth as a world leader. As PM you have to make compromises all the time and you have to negotiate with people who have no desire at all to make a deal with you. There's the economic crisis mentioned so many times on this thread to remind him of the importance of his job. If Cameron and the Conservatives throw their toys out of the pram and refuse to do a deal with the Lib Dems, then, in my opinion, they don't deserve a vote in the election that'd be called. Same would go for Labour or the Lib Dems for me.
PR might mean the BNP getting a few seats, but they're unlikely to be the kingmakers unless they're invited to be. I think the only far right groups that have recently got power in Europe are in Austria and Netherlands, where they're powerful and one of the biggest parties. That's not the case with the BNP. For example, every main Irish party refuses to go into government with Sinn Fein.
i dont know enough to pass comment but in simple terms i think its a disaster and an embaressment that a country like ours can potentially have Gordon Brown as PM when his party have haemorrged seats and the torries who got swept away in the last election can gain more seats than since the war and not be in power.
take away any call for political reform they can be looked into now any how.
the people voted on Labour, Conservitives and Libs not a coalition of any of those mentioned.
but i am being educated on here by those in a better position and if we have to return to the ballots i hope to understand it a bit better so i may disagree with myself soon enough ;-)
I'll try to keep it brief, but here goes.
Since 1998 when Blair declared "devolution to Scotland will stop the SNP in it's tracks" We have had a new style of Government.
The Scots were given their own Parliament (Alex Salmond the SNP leader of that Parliament, has christened it a Government)
The Welsh and N.Irish were given their own assemblies (not as powerful as the Scottish Parliament)
England was given 'F' all. England is the only country in the EU without it's own national legislature.
England is governed by the UK Government that sits in Westminster (we've all just voted for it) It is not "the English Parliament"
This is how the situation of Scottish MP's, Welsh MP's and N.Irish MP's voting on matters that are English only, came to be. Though English MP's cannot vote on Devolved matters in the other three nations.
When one considers that approx. 70% of matters are devolved to Scotland. It begs the question what do Scottish MP's do all day ? (other than interfere in Englands affairs)
The Scots have other elections to form the Scottish Parliament (Members of the Scottish Parliament [MSP's]) As do the Welsh (MWA's) and N.Irish (MNIA's)
Yesterday England as ever, voted overwhelmingly Tory. But won't get a Tory government.
This mess is called Democracy..........I call it an insult to England.
The Scots, Northern Irish and Welsh whilst being able to deal with their own regional affairs are nevertheless subject to British Government.
England, in theory at least, has no voice of it's own.
Just checked the BBC website and it shows that in England the Tories received less than 40% of the votes. I would not call that voting '..overwhelmingly Tory'.
There was a plan for England regional assemblies but there was clear evidence that people didn't want them, so they tested the water with a referendum in 2004 in the most promising region, the North East. People voted 3 to 1 against having an assembly.
No they didn't - 60% of voters in England did not vote Tory.