Great night for football????? Hardly. No doubt the best team won, but it was a dull game played by two largely cynical teams. Great night for Spanish football sure, but as WC finals go this one will be forgotten more as quickly than as most.
Dull? Maybe if you judge exciting games by goals, tackles flying in, great chances missed, sending off, great finish for the winner and plenty of talking points. Personally wouldn't say that is dull
If that had been a group match it would have been memorable only for the bookings, but compared with WC Finals it was one of the better matches.
2006 - Penalties
2002 - Brazil won easily
1998 - France won against a tired looking Brazil
1994 - Brazil won on pens in the most boring match ever.
1990 - Germany beat Argentina with a dodgy pen against a very cynical Argentina.
Ok tonight's match wasn't one for the purist, but it had moments of skill and at least resembled a game of football which hasn't always been the case in WC finals.
No! Lets not start a BBC style Spanish love in! Im with Danny Baker, who quite rightly says they are BORING, maybe their tactic is send the opposition to sleep by hypnotically passing the ball to death. Did they cut anyone apart on a regular basis? Or did they win 4 consecutive games 1-0? Inesta is very over rated, and falls over very easily, the slight silence when the BBC showed the replay of Hettinga's sending off was damning in my view, before Lawrensen said "oh but the hand was on the shoulder" yes very briefly, and was removed before Inesta fell, let's not forget that Howard Webb didn't even give a free kick for the "foul" on Inesta that led to Hettinga's 1st yellow. Finally, how come nobody's said anything about him kicking out at Van Bommel towards the end of normal time? A red card means Hettinga stays on the pitch, Inesta doesn't score the winner, and we may well have different World champions.
The reason Spain didn't 'cut anyone apart' is because every single team they played against adopted the exact same tactics that Inter did against Barcelona in the Chumpions' League. Hard to 'cut a team apart' when they stick ten men behind the ball and spend 90 (or, in this case, 120) minutes kicking f***ing great lumps out of you.
Spain are not 'boring'. The way the opposition (quite legitimately) set out against them dictates the way the game will play out. If you're the coach of a team who knows full well that they can't match them in skill, possession or quickness of foot, then there's nothing wrong with setting out your team to play a defensive game. You know full well there's a chance you could keep them at bay for ninety minutes and catch them on the break (just like the Swiss did in the first game). The Dutch set out to do just that - albeit with some pretty shocking 'tackles' (van Bommel and De Jong should have gone in the first half alone). You can't expect a coch to do anything else - but, by the same rationale, have to expect that the game won't be that much of a spectacle.
Webb didn't give a foul for the original challenge Heitinga got given a yellow card for because he was playing advantage as Spain still had possession. If you don't know that, you don't understand the laws of the game - just because it doesn't happen in PES or FIFA doesn't mean it doesn't happen in real life.
If you think either of Heitinga's bookings were not 100% merited, you either have shit in your eyes, the intelligence of a golf club, or, as mentioned above, don't understand the laws of the game.
He didn't give a red card because it wasn't a kick out. If he'd been operating under those rules, the Dutch would have forfeited the game by half time as they'd have had less than seven men left on the pitch.
Danny Baker is a f***witted Spanner.
As for the most laughable of your 'points' - Iniesta - Overrated? Jesus wept.
[cite]Posted By: eldavide[/cite]No! Lets not start a BBC style Spanish love in! Im with Danny Baker, who quite rightly says they are BORING, maybe their tactic is send the opposition to sleep by hypnotically passing the ball to death. Did they cut anyone apart on a regular basis? Or did they win 4 consecutive games 1-0? Inesta is very over rated, and falls over very easily, the slight silence when the BBC showed the replay of Hettinga's sending off was damning in my view, before Lawrensen said "oh but the hand was on the shoulder" yes very briefly, and was removed before Inesta fell, let's not forget that Howard Webb didn't even give a free kick for the "foul" on Inesta that led to Hettinga's 1st yellow. Finally, how come nobody's said anything about him kicking out at Van Bommel towards the end of normal time? A red card means Hettinga stays on the pitch, Inesta doesn't score the winner, and we may well have different World champions.
True Spain over-elaborated and were a bit too much in love with the short passing game and consequently tended to press their opponents back before trying to thread a ball through a packed defence, occasionally a bit of route one is necessary. Consequently they didn't create that many clear cut chances that a side who at times were camped in their oponents half should have, but in mitigation Torres was woefully off form and moving Villa into the centre meant that they were weaker on the left which previously had been a strength. In every game I saw they controlled possession and kept their opponents on the back foot - against Germany they had 60% of the ball and not that much less against Holland, not bad stats for the semi and the final of the world's biggest football tournament.
Regarding discipline, Spain were no angels - and I don't think anyone is defending them, Iniesta and Puyol could both have been sent off for two yellows, but to have them walk when Van Bommel and De Jong should not have lasted the first half would have been a travesty. Webb had a hard job and maybe made it harder for himself by not wanting to spoil a match watched by around half the world's population, perhaps if he had sent off Van Bommel or De Jong then the rest of the game might not have been so ill-tempered. Holland perhaps would have been forced to try and play football rather than relying on stoping Spain and nicking a goal. Who knows, but the right team won.
The reason Spain didn't 'cut anyone apart' is because every single team they played against adopted the exact same tactics that Inter did against Barcelona in the Chumpions' League. Hard to 'cut a team apart' when they stick ten men behind the ball and spend 90 (or, in this case, 120) minutes kicking f***ing great lumps out of you.
Spain are not 'boring'. The way the opposition (quite legitimately) set out against them dictates the way the game will play out. If you're the coach of a team who knows full well that they can't match them in skill, possession or quickness of foot, then there's nothing wrong with setting out your team to play a defensive game. You know full well there's a chance you could keep them at bay for ninety minutes and catch them on the break (just like the Swiss did in the first game). The Dutch set out to do just that - albeit with some pretty shocking 'tackles' (van Bommel and De Jong should have gone in the first half alone). You can't expect a coch to do anything else - but, by the same rationale, have to expect that the game won't be that much of a spectacle.
I agree with you, but what's annoying is how the media go on about how fantastic and entertaining Spain are to watch, whilst in fact most of their games, as you say, 'aren't much of a spectacle'. This of course isn't their fault and it would be harsh to call Spain themselves 'boring' - but their dominance does tend to lead to some boring games. For the neutral its a metronomic technical exercise that's easier to admire than outright enjoy.
Maybe they're just too good for any team to ever contest a real football match against, which is a shame. I would have liked to see Brazil or Argentina play Spain, as even in the Dunga era I don't think Brazil would be a side that would simply set out to stifle Spain, and Argentina would certainly have had a go.
Leroy, Watch the advantage Webb played, a half hearted little push out with his arms, the players stopped hence the game restarted with a drop ball, if there was a foul he missed it, so can't quite see how he could book a player for that! Also I don't think a team forfeits a game if they are reduced to less than 7 men, would be interesting to see what would happen but I would say it would be replayed.What i do know about the laws is that with your mouth you wouldn't last 5 seconds on the pitch, what the point of all the swearing?? Finally watch again Iniesta clearly lashes out at Van Bommel Thanks to BlackForest for joining in the BALANCED debate
[cite]Posted By: eldavide[/cite] Also I don't think a team forfeits a game if they are reduced to less than 7 men, would be interesting to see what would happen but I would say it would be replayed.
If you have less than 8 men you lose the game 3-0. FACT.
[cite]Posted By: eldavide[/cite]Leroy,
Watch the advantage Webb played, a half hearted little push out with his arms, the players stopped hence the game restarted with a drop ball, if there was a foul he missed it, so can't quite see how he could book a player for that! Also I don't think a team forfeits a game if they are reduced to less than 7 men, would be interesting to see what would happen but I would say it would be replayed.What i do know about the laws is that with your mouth you wouldn't last 5 seconds on the pitch, what the point of all the swearing?? Finally watch again Iniesta clearly lashes out at Van Bommel
Thanks to BlackForest for joining in the BALANCED debate
LOL
You are just plain wrong about Webb - I've already told you why. You simply restating your point doesn't make it any less wrong. The drop ball was because he thought the player might be injured - Spain were in the process of kicking the ball out when he blew the whistle - hence: drop ball.
Your second point is just woeful. How on Earth could you think that the game would be replayed? What would stop any team then taking the absolute p*** if losing 2-0 with five minutes to go and just diving in or punching opponents to get the game replayed after being reduced to seven men? You have the intellectual reasoning capacity of a small child.
Iniesta's kick out was not a 'proper' lash out. As I said earlier, if Webb had sent him off for that the game would have been an absolute, utter farce, and the Dutch wouldn't have finished normal time with eight men, let alone extra time.
Finally I have played football for nearly thirty years. Do you really think that I spend every game I play swearing at the ref? Your post was ridiculous - and you got called on it.
Holland should have played their normal style instead of trying to replicate a sunday morning pub game as would have made for a better match and may have proved more fruitful for them.
Was delighted to see Robben miss and lose...fantastic player but sullies any admiration with his constant play acting.
As for Danny Baker....doubt very much any spaniard or any one whose team has ever won it will look back and think "Yeah ok we won the greatest trophy on Earth but we could have knocked it about more...in fact it has really taken the shine off the whole thing as I wanted to win playing like Brazil in the 70s."
To be able to win with "truly" world class players like Torres not peaking and Fabregas on the bench shows the depth of quality they have. As the above post says I would be estatic if England were this boring.
If anything he's been underrated for years until everyone woke up and smelt the coffee in last season's Champions League final... never been spoken about in the same breath as Kaka, Ronaldo, Messi etc.
Iniesta over-rated?....couldnt disagree more. He is rediculously good. Anyone that watches La Liga on a regular basis will tell you the same. Plus the guy does it at international level as well. Him & Xavi run games. BBC showed footage of their movement, ie one goes the other stays. Its almost telapathic.
[quote][cite]Posted By: Leroy Ambrose[/cite][quote][cite]Posted By: eldavide[/cite]Leroy, Watch the advantage Webb played, a half hearted little push out with his arms, the players stopped hence the game restarted with a drop ball, if there was a foul he missed it, so can't quite see how he could book a player for that! Also I don't think a team forfeits a game if they are reduced to less than 7 men, would be interesting to see what would happen but I would say it would be replayed.What i do know about the laws is that with your mouth you wouldn't last 5 seconds on the pitch, what the point of all the swearing?? Finally watch again Iniesta clearly lashes out at Van Bommel Thanks to BlackForest for joining in the BALANCED debate[/quote] LOL
You are just plain wrong about Webb - I've already told you why. You simply restating your point doesn't make it any less wrong. The drop ball was because he thought the player might be injured - Spain were in the process of kicking the ball out when he blew the whistle - hence: drop ball.
Your second point is just woeful. How on Earth could you think that the game would be replayed? What would stop any team then taking the absolute p*** if losing 2-0 with five minutes to go and just diving in or punching opponents to get the game replayed after being reduced to seven men? You have the intellectual reasoning capacity of a small child.
Iniesta's kick out was not a 'proper' lash out. As I said earlier, if Webb had sent him off for that the game would have been an absolute, utter farce, and the Dutch wouldn't have finished normal time with eight men, let alone extra time.
Finally I have played football for nearly thirty years. Do you really think that I spend every game I play swearing at the ref? Your post was ridiculous - and you got called on it.[/quote]
Where do we start? So because you've said so it's right? Is that the gist? Why would Spain kick the ball out if they had such a great advantage? Webb could have brought it back for a free kick, I think he missed it, hence the meek "play on" wave, then because Spain had stopped he then felt he had to do something! 2) I think my "woeful" second point has a lot more credence than your forfeit theory - think you've been "called" on that one! Especially as the laws you so clearly know everything about state that a match may not start if either team has fewer than 7 players, Presuming the game has been stopped to send off the 5th player, it has to be abandoned, then we have the rule that states any match which has been abandoned must be replayed, finally lets throw in the one that says the winning team shall be the one that scores the most goals.Happy yet? 3)I see now that you're saying that Iniesta's kick out was not a proper lashing out, where before you said he didn't kick out at all, which is it?? 4) If you've managed to hold your tongue for over 30 years on the pitch, why do you feel you have to swear on a meaningless discussion board?
Leroy: I do generally like your posts as you often make some interesting, intelligent and insightful points. I say this despite us having majorly disagreed in the past. You do however need to be more polite to people who disagree with you, and consider that you may perhaps be wrong sometimes.
Comments
¿Por qué los celos?
Edited in the light of BFRs comments.
2006 - Penalties
2002 - Brazil won easily
1998 - France won against a tired looking Brazil
1994 - Brazil won on pens in the most boring match ever.
1990 - Germany beat Argentina with a dodgy pen against a very cynical Argentina.
Ok tonight's match wasn't one for the purist, but it had moments of skill and at least resembled a game of football which hasn't always been the case in WC finals.
The reason Spain didn't 'cut anyone apart' is because every single team they played against adopted the exact same tactics that Inter did against Barcelona in the Chumpions' League. Hard to 'cut a team apart' when they stick ten men behind the ball and spend 90 (or, in this case, 120) minutes kicking f***ing great lumps out of you.
Spain are not 'boring'. The way the opposition (quite legitimately) set out against them dictates the way the game will play out. If you're the coach of a team who knows full well that they can't match them in skill, possession or quickness of foot, then there's nothing wrong with setting out your team to play a defensive game. You know full well there's a chance you could keep them at bay for ninety minutes and catch them on the break (just like the Swiss did in the first game). The Dutch set out to do just that - albeit with some pretty shocking 'tackles' (van Bommel and De Jong should have gone in the first half alone). You can't expect a coch to do anything else - but, by the same rationale, have to expect that the game won't be that much of a spectacle.
Webb didn't give a foul for the original challenge Heitinga got given a yellow card for because he was playing advantage as Spain still had possession. If you don't know that, you don't understand the laws of the game - just because it doesn't happen in PES or FIFA doesn't mean it doesn't happen in real life.
If you think either of Heitinga's bookings were not 100% merited, you either have shit in your eyes, the intelligence of a golf club, or, as mentioned above, don't understand the laws of the game.
He didn't give a red card because it wasn't a kick out. If he'd been operating under those rules, the Dutch would have forfeited the game by half time as they'd have had less than seven men left on the pitch.
Danny Baker is a f***witted Spanner.
As for the most laughable of your 'points' - Iniesta - Overrated? Jesus wept.
True Spain over-elaborated and were a bit too much in love with the short passing game and consequently tended to press their opponents back before trying to thread a ball through a packed defence, occasionally a bit of route one is necessary. Consequently they didn't create that many clear cut chances that a side who at times were camped in their oponents half should have, but in mitigation Torres was woefully off form and moving Villa into the centre meant that they were weaker on the left which previously had been a strength. In every game I saw they controlled possession and kept their opponents on the back foot - against Germany they had 60% of the ball and not that much less against Holland, not bad stats for the semi and the final of the world's biggest football tournament.
Regarding discipline, Spain were no angels - and I don't think anyone is defending them, Iniesta and Puyol could both have been sent off for two yellows, but to have them walk when Van Bommel and De Jong should not have lasted the first half would have been a travesty. Webb had a hard job and maybe made it harder for himself by not wanting to spoil a match watched by around half the world's population, perhaps if he had sent off Van Bommel or De Jong then the rest of the game might not have been so ill-tempered. Holland perhaps would have been forced to try and play football rather than relying on stoping Spain and nicking a goal. Who knows, but the right team won.
I agree with you, but what's annoying is how the media go on about how fantastic and entertaining Spain are to watch, whilst in fact most of their games, as you say, 'aren't much of a spectacle'. This of course isn't their fault and it would be harsh to call Spain themselves 'boring' - but their dominance does tend to lead to some boring games. For the neutral its a metronomic technical exercise that's easier to admire than outright enjoy.
Maybe they're just too good for any team to ever contest a real football match against, which is a shame. I would have liked to see Brazil or Argentina play Spain, as even in the Dunga era I don't think Brazil would be a side that would simply set out to stifle Spain, and Argentina would certainly have had a go.
Watch the advantage Webb played, a half hearted little push out with his arms, the players stopped hence the game restarted with a drop ball, if there was a foul he missed it, so can't quite see how he could book a player for that! Also I don't think a team forfeits a game if they are reduced to less than 7 men, would be interesting to see what would happen but I would say it would be replayed.What i do know about the laws is that with your mouth you wouldn't last 5 seconds on the pitch, what the point of all the swearing?? Finally watch again Iniesta clearly lashes out at Van Bommel
Thanks to BlackForest for joining in the BALANCED debate
I think.
You are just plain wrong about Webb - I've already told you why. You simply restating your point doesn't make it any less wrong. The drop ball was because he thought the player might be injured - Spain were in the process of kicking the ball out when he blew the whistle - hence: drop ball.
Your second point is just woeful. How on Earth could you think that the game would be replayed? What would stop any team then taking the absolute p*** if losing 2-0 with five minutes to go and just diving in or punching opponents to get the game replayed after being reduced to seven men? You have the intellectual reasoning capacity of a small child.
Iniesta's kick out was not a 'proper' lash out. As I said earlier, if Webb had sent him off for that the game would have been an absolute, utter farce, and the Dutch wouldn't have finished normal time with eight men, let alone extra time.
Finally I have played football for nearly thirty years. Do you really think that I spend every game I play swearing at the ref? Your post was ridiculous - and you got called on it.
Holland should have played their normal style instead of trying to replicate a sunday morning pub game as would have made for a better match and may have proved more fruitful for them.
Was delighted to see Robben miss and lose...fantastic player but sullies any admiration with his constant play acting.
As for Danny Baker....doubt very much any spaniard or any one whose team has ever won it will look back and think "Yeah ok we won the greatest trophy on Earth but we could have knocked it about more...in fact it has really taken the shine off the whole thing as I wanted to win playing like Brazil in the 70s."
To be able to win with "truly" world class players like Torres not peaking and Fabregas on the bench shows the depth of quality they have. As the above post says I would be estatic if England were this boring.
If anything he's been underrated for years until everyone woke up and smelt the coffee in last season's Champions League final... never been spoken about in the same breath as Kaka, Ronaldo, Messi etc.
Watch the advantage Webb played, a half hearted little push out with his arms, the players stopped hence the game restarted with a drop ball, if there was a foul he missed it, so can't quite see how he could book a player for that! Also I don't think a team forfeits a game if they are reduced to less than 7 men, would be interesting to see what would happen but I would say it would be replayed.What i do know about the laws is that with your mouth you wouldn't last 5 seconds on the pitch, what the point of all the swearing?? Finally watch again Iniesta clearly lashes out at Van Bommel
Thanks to BlackForest for joining in the BALANCED debate[/quote]
LOL
You are just plain wrong about Webb - I've already told you why. You simply restating your point doesn't make it any less wrong. The drop ball was because he thought the player might be injured - Spain were in the process of kicking the ball out when he blew the whistle - hence: drop ball.
Your second point is just woeful. How on Earth could you think that the game would be replayed? What would stop any team then taking the absolute p*** if losing 2-0 with five minutes to go and just diving in or punching opponents to get the game replayed after being reduced to seven men? You have the intellectual reasoning capacity of a small child.
Iniesta's kick out was not a 'proper' lash out. As I said earlier, if Webb had sent him off for that the game would have been an absolute, utter farce, and the Dutch wouldn't have finished normal time with eight men, let alone extra time.
Finally I have played football for nearly thirty years. Do you really think that I spend every game I play swearing at the ref? Your post was ridiculous - and you got called on it.[/quote]
Where do we start? So because you've said so it's right? Is that the gist? Why would Spain kick the ball out if they had such a great advantage? Webb could have brought it back for a free kick, I think he missed it, hence the meek "play on" wave, then because Spain had stopped he then felt he had to do something!
2) I think my "woeful" second point has a lot more credence than your forfeit theory - think you've been "called" on that one! Especially as the laws you so clearly know everything about state that a match may not start if either team has fewer than 7 players, Presuming the game has been stopped to send off the 5th player, it has to be abandoned, then we have the rule that states any match which has been abandoned must be replayed, finally lets throw in the one that says the winning team shall be the one that scores the most goals.Happy yet?
3)I see now that you're saying that Iniesta's kick out was not a proper lashing out, where before you said he didn't kick out at all, which is it??
4) If you've managed to hold your tongue for over 30 years on the pitch, why do you feel you have to swear on a meaningless discussion board?
You do however need to be more polite to people who disagree with you, and consider that you may perhaps be wrong sometimes.