[cite]Posted By: bibble[/cite]The ironic thing about the London Blitz, is that Hitler said he did not want to go to war with Britain, remember we had the biggest Naval forces in the world, followed by the French. The first bombs fell on London by accident when a German bomber who's mission was to attack the RAF airfields got lost, dropped his bombs unknowingly over London. In reprisal Churchill sent a squadron of Stirling bombers (The Lancaster was not flying then) and bombed Berlin.
Just read Fergusson's book on WW2 (it's very good). If it hadn't been for the bitz we might well have lost the war. Before then the Luftwaffe was bombing airfields and the RAF was in serious difficulties in getting fighters up in the air. The switch to terror bombing allowed them enough time to recover. If the Germans had carried on with the air fields they would quite probably have been able to establish air superiority over south east England, the essential prequisite to Operation Sea Lion (air superiority trumping naval superiority in WW2).
The book also brought home to me that, horrendous though the 60,000 odd deaths caused by German bombing was, the British got off pretty lightly compared to other countried. For examply, about 90,000 French civilians died during the allied bombing in preperation for the D-Day landings. A million soviets died in the Siege of Leningrad alone.
It's the 70th anniversary of the start of the London Blitz today. #cafc were playing Millwall at The Valley on September 7th, 1940. Play was halted after 89 minutes when enemy planes were spotted, accompanied by heavy anti-aircraft fire...
The players were soon recalled, though, and as the final whistle blew, two planes were seen crashing to the earth. #cafc lost 4-2 (MW) #cafc
A little bit of Addicks history for you all, courtesy of #cafc club historian and all-round Charlton legend Colin Cameron
Yep, good work Jints - read any of Patrick Bishops boooks, Bomber Boys or Fighter Boys or his latest Battle of Britain, all true stories interspearced with real statements of those who where there.
Also for anyone interested here is a piece on Norman Jackson who won the VC during bombing raids, here is his citation.
This airman was the flight engineer in a RAF Lancaster detailed to attack Schweinfurt on the night of 26th April, 1944. Bombs were dropped successfully and the aircraft was climbing out of the target area. Suddenly it was attacked by a fighter at about 20,000 feet. The captain took evading action at once, but the enemy secured many hits. A fire started near a petrol tank on the upper surface of the starboard wing, between the fuselage and the inner engine.
Sergeant Jackson was thrown to the floor during the engagement. Wounds which he received from shell splinters in the right leg and shoulder were probably sustained at that time. Recovering himself, he remarked that he could deal with the fire on the wing and obtained his captain’s permission to try to put out the flames.
Pushing a hand fire-extinguisher into the top of his life-saving jacket and clipping on his parachute pack, Sergeant Jackson jettisoned the escape hatch above the pilot’s head. He then started to climb out of the cockpit and back along the top of the fuselage to the starboard wing. Before he could leave the fuselage his parachute pack opened and the whole canopy and rigging lines spilled into the cockpit.
Undeterred, Sergeant Jackson continued. The pilot, bomb aimer and navigator gathered the parachute together and held on to the rigging lines, paying them out as the airman crawled aft. Eventually he slipped and, falling from the fuselage to the starboard wing, grasped an air intake on the leading edge of the wing. He succeeded in clinging on but lost the extinguisher, which was blown away.
By this time, the fire had spread rapidly and Sergeant Jackson was involved. His face, hands and clothing were severely burnt. Unable to retain his hold he was swept through the flames and over the trailing edge of the wing, dragging his parachute behind. When last seen it was only partly inflated and was burning in a number of places.
Realising that the fire could not be controlled, the captain gave the order to abandon aircraft. Four of the remaining members of the crew landed safely. The captain and rear gunner have not been accounted for.
Sergeant Jackson was unable to control his descent and landed heavily. He sustained a broken ankle, his right eye was closed through burns and his hands were useless. These injuries, together with the wounds received earlier, reduced him to a pitiable state. At daybreak he crawled to the nearest village, where he was taken prisoner. He bore the intense pain and discomfort of the journey to Dulag Luft with magnificent fortitude. After ten months in hospital he made a good recovery, though his hands require further treatment and are only of limited use.
This airman’s attempt to extinguish the fire and save the aircraft and crew from falling into enemy hands was an act of outstanding gallantry. To venture outside, when travelling at 200 miles an hour, at a great height and in intense cold, was an almost incredible feat. Had he succeeded in subduing the flames, there was little or no prospect of his regaining the cockpit. The spilling of his parachute and the risk of grave damage to its canopy reduced his chances of survival to a minimum. By his ready willingness to face these dangers he set an example of self-sacrifice which will ever be remembered.
An author friend of mine interviewed Norman Jackson in the late 1980's, what is not mentioned in the above is that he was also shot by enemy aircraft while hanging on the wing. Norman Jackson died in 1994.
An absolutely fascinating list. I lived the first 14 years of my life on Torridon Road (site of the 14th bomb strike) and a lot of my pals come from Catford, Downham etc... Amazing to see.
Just sent the list to my dad and he tells me that the bombing of Sandhurst School caused a massive stir and is still commerated. I had no idea.
Thanks for the positive response to the idea of a walk for Lifers or for a group of Lifers to come along on the Blackheath & Greenwich walk sometime. Whilst I'm trying to make a part of my living from this, I'd also be happy to give Lifers a slight reduction in the price (It's normally £7 a head so not exactly expensive or you can just buy me a pint or two at the end!) And yes, the Blackheath & Greenwich walk DOES finish near a pub (as do all of our walks wherever we do them in London!)
Whilst the next B&G walk is on the Saturday we play at Tranmere, this is not my usual day for doing them as I'm usually watching the Addicks - Sunday mornings seem to be favourite, so perhaps we can sort something out for a Sunday in October/November sometime?
[cite]Posted By: Dave Rudd[/cite]This really is a fascinating list. I also wonder if it explains the 'missing' houses at the bottom of Victoria Way.
Growing up there, I was always intrigued why the first house on the opposite side of the road was No. 10. Various single-storey buildings occupied the site where Nos 2 to 8 would have been.
Were they destroyed, I wonder, by bomb 753?
The Greenwich Incident Log describes this incident as "Johnson & Phillips Upper Works - HE Bomb - Building likely to collapse - many private houses damaged" so I suspect this is the same incident. Johnson & Phillips was a cable manufacturing company and one of Charlton's big industrial employers. I've got quite a few photos of this and various other incidents affecting Johnson & Phillips as the factory was bombed on several occasions, including V-1 and V-2 hits.
Re the walk - if someone can come up with a couple of favourite Sunday dates, I'll do my best to arrange a Greenwich walk to fit in with one of them.
I can pick out my mum and dad's house, my grandparents place and my old school amongst other things in that photo.The bomber to the right is about to fly directly over the top of my childhood home.
My girlfriends Mum was on BBC1 this morning as they wanted to interview people who remembered the blitz. She told how her house in Deptford was taken out completely by a German bomb because a mobile anti-aircraft gun was operating nearby. The bombers picked up on the Ak-Ak gun flash and dropped on the area, taking out her entire house. All her family plus chickens were in the shelter in their garden and because her Dad had re-inforced it they all survived. What she didn't say on the TV was that all that was left of the house was a cabinet with unbroken glass panels which she still has in her house today as a reminder.
She has also told us a story of a German plane flying over her head after the bombing of a local school (possibly the one in Catford mentioned earlier in the thread) - he flew low enough that she could see the face of the Nazi pilot looking down at her - chilling for a 7/8 year old.
I will mention to her about Tom Hovi's Blitz walks as I know she'll be really interested in that.
The TV channel "Yesterday" is running a series of programmes under the heading "Spirit of 1940", last night's was about the first night of the blitz. Mostly the East End was targetted, but several bombs fell short and hit Lewisam and that area.
One of the reasons why SE London and North Kent received a disproportioate amount of V1 and V2 rockets was a consequence of British propaganda. The rockets were aimed at central London but in news broadcasts the targets were reported as hitting locations in north London and the northern Home Counties. The Nazi's thinking that they had the range wrong re-calibrated the rockets for about 20 miles or so less and ended up hitting south east London and Kent instead.
[cite]Posted By: HarryHutchens[/cite]She has also told us a story of a German plane flying over her head after the bombing of a local school (possibly the one in Catford mentioned earlier in the thread) - he flew low enough that she could see the face of the Nazi pilot looking down at her - chilling for a 7/8 year old.
This was certainly the case for the bombing of sandhurst school, it's one of the reasons so many believe that the germans knew it was a school and saw it as a way of destroying moral at the time.
[cite]Posted By: BlackForestReds[/cite]The TV channel "Yesterday" is running a series of programmes under the heading "Spirit of 1940", last night's was about the first night of the blitz. Mostly the East End was targetted, but several bombs fell short and hit Lewisam and that area.
One of the reasons why SE London and North Kent received a disproportioate amount of V1 and V2 rockets was a consequence of British propaganda. The rockets were aimed at central London but in news broadcasts the targets were reported as hitting locations in north London and the northern Home Counties. The Nazi's thinking that they had the range wrong re-calibrated the rockets for about 20 miles or so less and ended up hitting south east London and Kent instead.
I think swanscombe got a fairly large number of hits during the blitz - I did some research when writing a short book for the closure of the local infants school. The first V1 flying bomb in england hit Swanscombe.
[cite]Posted By: BlackForestReds[/cite]The TV channel "Yesterday" is running a series of programmes under the heading "Spirit of 1940", last night's was about the first night of the blitz. Mostly the East End was targetted, but several bombs fell short and hit Lewisam and that area.
One of the reasons why SE London and North Kent received a disproportioate amount of V1 and V2 rockets was a consequence of British propaganda. The rockets were aimed at central London but in news broadcasts the targets were reported as hitting locations in north London and the northern Home Counties. The Nazi's thinking that they had the range wrong re-calibrated the rockets for about 20 miles or so less and ended up hitting south east London and Kent instead.
CommentAuthorFriend Or Defoe CommentTime1 day ago quote# 8 Jesus I know a lot of those roads. I didn't realise Catford was bombed as much as it was, any ideas why as I doubt the German's would have missed their targets that often.
The railway yards at Hither Green, and the Hither Green/Grove Park mainline were the target. Most of the roads hit with Catford postcodes are just to the West of the marshalling yards.
[cite]Posted By: Tutt-Tutt[/cite]CommentAuthorFriend Or Defoe CommentTime1 day ago quote# 8
Jesus I know a lot of those roads. I didn't realise Catford was bombed as much as it was, any ideas why as I doubt the German's would have missed their targets that often.
The railway yards at Hither Green, and the Hither Green/Grove Park mainline were the target. Most of the roads hit with Catford postcodes are just to the West of the marshalling yards.
I read a book about why so many V bombs landed in the home counties and it was was because a German double agent was sending back the wrong coordinates for ones that landed already...
It was a fascinating story, I think he was 'turned' 2/3 times by the secret service...
Kent suffered the most doodle bug damage because of the flight path they took and they were more often shot down by the RAF or Ack Ack...
Tom, would certainly be interested later in the season maybe lining up a walk on a Saturday morning / lunchtime, then we all go for a pint before the match. Can't do Sundays
[cite]Posted By: AFKABartram[/cite]Tom, would certainly be interested later in the season maybe lining up a walk on a Saturday morning / lunchtime, then we all go for a pint before the match. Can't do Sundays
Can anyone assist please? I want to watch a short documentary called 'London Can Take It', which is basically about a day in the bombing of London. It was a propaganda piece designed not only to shore up morale, but also to try and persuade the US to enter the war. I'd read that Churchill had wanted the bombings to happen as he believed that it would bring in the US, but it would seem that he miscalculated. I seem unable to find a freebie link to this documentary.
Thanks Henry, quite something, 'the symphony of war', 'the shops are open for business, this one's more open than usual' - that's some well judged and effectively understated writing.
Think I'll have to buy the DVD.
Henry, I've just bought that DVD along with a poster from the IWM. Do you have any idea where I might buy b/w photos of the blitz, I couldn't see any on the site.
cheers
Ray
TCE, don't know about b/w pics. Other than in books I'd guess that Getty or one of the photo agencies might sell them but would be expensive I would have thought.
Back to DVDs -If you are into this sort of thing search out any of the Humphrey Jennings films. Described as "the cinematic poet laureate of Britain at War".
Also "It Happened Here" a stark and not at all sentimental 1964 film of the German Occupation of England.
Does any one know of any books that focus on Woolwich/south London in the blitz? So often the area seems to get overlooked or lumped in with the "east End".
[cite]Posted By: RedZed333[/cite]I read a book about why so many V bombs landed in the home counties and it was was because a German double agent was sending back the wrong coordinates for ones that landed already...
Pretty much all the German agents had been turned by then. They completely convinced the Nazis that the d-day landings would be at Pas-de-Calais rather than Normandy.
From Wiki on the deception re V-rocket landing
To adjust and correct settings in the V-1 guidance system, the Germans needed to know where the V-1s were landing. The V-1 operators asked German intelligence to get this impact data from agents in Britain. All these agents were double agents under British control (the Double Cross System), so the British sent deceptive data to the Germans.
V-1 impacts were often reported in the public press, so the British did not send false reports. Instead, they sent locations of actual impacts, especially those in central London, or "long" (to the northwest), but they omitted most of the impacts falling "short" (to the southeast). The Germans were thus induced to adjust their range settings down, shifting the "Mean Point of Impact" (MPI) away from central London to less populated areas.
In August 1944, the V-1 launch sites along the French coast were occupied by Allied forces. The Germans relocated V-1 operations to the Netherlands. When they resumed launching, their MPI was back in central London, but again the British deception shifted it elsewhere, this time to the east-north-east.
This deception operation suffered some interference from a German double agent in Portugal codenamed Arabel, who fraudulently claimed to have agents in Britain. He sent in a lot of fake impact reports which the Germans accepted. Fortunately, thanks to Ultra, the Allies read his messages and were able to adjust for them.[26] He later approached the British intelligence service and served in counterintelligence. He was one of few people to be decorated for service by both the German and British governments in World War II.
The policy of diverting V-1 impacts away from central London was initially controversial. The War Cabinet refused to authorize a measure which would increase casualties in any area, even if it reduced casualties elsewhere by greater amounts. It was thought that Churchill would reverse this decision later (he was then away at a conference); but the delay in starting the reports to Germans might be fatal to the deception.
Sir Findlater Stewart of Home Defence Executive then took responsibility for starting the deception program immediately. His action was approved by Churchill when he returned.[27]
Comments
http://www.bbc.co.uk/ww2peopleswar/
Just read Fergusson's book on WW2 (it's very good). If it hadn't been for the bitz we might well have lost the war. Before then the Luftwaffe was bombing airfields and the RAF was in serious difficulties in getting fighters up in the air. The switch to terror bombing allowed them enough time to recover. If the Germans had carried on with the air fields they would quite probably have been able to establish air superiority over south east England, the essential prequisite to Operation Sea Lion (air superiority trumping naval superiority in WW2).
The book also brought home to me that, horrendous though the 60,000 odd deaths caused by German bombing was, the British got off pretty lightly compared to other countried. For examply, about 90,000 French civilians died during the allied bombing in preperation for the D-Day landings. A million soviets died in the Siege of Leningrad alone.
It's the 70th anniversary of the start of the London Blitz today. #cafc were playing Millwall at The Valley on September 7th, 1940. Play was halted after 89 minutes when enemy planes were spotted, accompanied by heavy anti-aircraft fire...
The players were soon recalled, though, and as the final whistle blew, two planes were seen crashing to the earth. #cafc lost 4-2 (MW) #cafc
A little bit of Addicks history for you all, courtesy of #cafc club historian and all-round Charlton legend Colin Cameron
Also for anyone interested here is a piece on Norman Jackson who won the VC during bombing raids, here is his citation.
This airman was the flight engineer in a RAF Lancaster detailed to attack Schweinfurt on the night of 26th April, 1944. Bombs were dropped successfully and the aircraft was climbing out of the target area. Suddenly it was attacked by a fighter at about 20,000 feet. The captain took evading action at once, but the enemy secured many hits. A fire started near a petrol tank on the upper surface of the starboard wing, between the fuselage and the inner engine.
Sergeant Jackson was thrown to the floor during the engagement. Wounds which he received from shell splinters in the right leg and shoulder were probably sustained at that time. Recovering himself, he remarked that he could deal with the fire on the wing and obtained his captain’s permission to try to put out the flames.
Pushing a hand fire-extinguisher into the top of his life-saving jacket and clipping on his parachute pack, Sergeant Jackson jettisoned the escape hatch above the pilot’s head. He then started to climb out of the cockpit and back along the top of the fuselage to the starboard wing. Before he could leave the fuselage his parachute pack opened and the whole canopy and rigging lines spilled into the cockpit.
Undeterred, Sergeant Jackson continued. The pilot, bomb aimer and navigator gathered the parachute together and held on to the rigging lines, paying them out as the airman crawled aft. Eventually he slipped and, falling from the fuselage to the starboard wing, grasped an air intake on the leading edge of the wing. He succeeded in clinging on but lost the extinguisher, which was blown away.
By this time, the fire had spread rapidly and Sergeant Jackson was involved. His face, hands and clothing were severely burnt. Unable to retain his hold he was swept through the flames and over the trailing edge of the wing, dragging his parachute behind. When last seen it was only partly inflated and was burning in a number of places.
Realising that the fire could not be controlled, the captain gave the order to abandon aircraft. Four of the remaining members of the crew landed safely. The captain and rear gunner have not been accounted for.
Sergeant Jackson was unable to control his descent and landed heavily. He sustained a broken ankle, his right eye was closed through burns and his hands were useless. These injuries, together with the wounds received earlier, reduced him to a pitiable state. At daybreak he crawled to the nearest village, where he was taken prisoner. He bore the intense pain and discomfort of the journey to Dulag Luft with magnificent fortitude. After ten months in hospital he made a good recovery, though his hands require further treatment and are only of limited use.
This airman’s attempt to extinguish the fire and save the aircraft and crew from falling into enemy hands was an act of outstanding gallantry. To venture outside, when travelling at 200 miles an hour, at a great height and in intense cold, was an almost incredible feat. Had he succeeded in subduing the flames, there was little or no prospect of his regaining the cockpit. The spilling of his parachute and the risk of grave damage to its canopy reduced his chances of survival to a minimum. By his ready willingness to face these dangers he set an example of self-sacrifice which will ever be remembered.
An author friend of mine interviewed Norman Jackson in the late 1980's, what is not mentioned in the above is that he was also shot by enemy aircraft while hanging on the wing. Norman Jackson died in 1994.
Just sent the list to my dad and he tells me that the bombing of Sandhurst School caused a massive stir and is still commerated. I had no idea.
Whilst the next B&G walk is on the Saturday we play at Tranmere, this is not my usual day for doing them as I'm usually watching the Addicks - Sunday mornings seem to be favourite, so perhaps we can sort something out for a Sunday in October/November sometime?
Cheers Steve (aka Tom Hovi)
The Greenwich Incident Log describes this incident as "Johnson & Phillips Upper Works - HE Bomb - Building likely to collapse - many private houses damaged" so I suspect this is the same incident. Johnson & Phillips was a cable manufacturing company and one of Charlton's big industrial employers. I've got quite a few photos of this and various other incidents affecting Johnson & Phillips as the factory was bombed on several occasions, including V-1 and V-2 hits.
Re the walk - if someone can come up with a couple of favourite Sunday dates, I'll do my best to arrange a Greenwich walk to fit in with one of them.
I can pick out my mum and dad's house, my grandparents place and my old school amongst other things in that photo.The bomber to the right is about to fly directly over the top of my childhood home.
She has also told us a story of a German plane flying over her head after the bombing of a local school (possibly the one in Catford mentioned earlier in the thread) - he flew low enough that she could see the face of the Nazi pilot looking down at her - chilling for a 7/8 year old.
I will mention to her about Tom Hovi's Blitz walks as I know she'll be really interested in that.
.............
The bombers used were Wellingtons.
One of the reasons why SE London and North Kent received a disproportioate amount of V1 and V2 rockets was a consequence of British propaganda. The rockets were aimed at central London but in news broadcasts the targets were reported as hitting locations in north London and the northern Home Counties. The Nazi's thinking that they had the range wrong re-calibrated the rockets for about 20 miles or so less and ended up hitting south east London and Kent instead.
This was certainly the case for the bombing of sandhurst school, it's one of the reasons so many believe that the germans knew it was a school and saw it as a way of destroying moral at the time.
I think swanscombe got a fairly large number of hits during the blitz - I did some research when writing a short book for the closure of the local infants school. The first V1 flying bomb in england hit Swanscombe.
Jesus I know a lot of those roads. I didn't realise Catford was bombed as much as it was, any ideas why as I doubt the German's would have missed their targets that often.
The railway yards at Hither Green, and the Hither Green/Grove Park mainline were the target. Most of the roads hit with Catford postcodes are just to the West of the marshalling yards.
You can see from this pre-war map how much this part of Lewisham has changed.
It was a fascinating story, I think he was 'turned' 2/3 times by the secret service...
Kent suffered the most doodle bug damage because of the flight path they took and they were more often shot down by the RAF or Ack Ack...
Tom, would certainly be interested later in the season maybe lining up a walk on a Saturday morning / lunchtime, then we all go for a pint before the match. Can't do Sundays
Not allowed.
on You tube A.
Think I'll have to buy the DVD.
Henry, I've just bought that DVD along with a poster from the IWM. Do you have any idea where I might buy b/w photos of the blitz, I couldn't see any on the site.
cheers
Ray
Back to DVDs -If you are into this sort of thing search out any of the Humphrey Jennings films. Described as "the cinematic poet laureate of Britain at War".
Also "It Happened Here" a stark and not at all sentimental 1964 film of the German Occupation of England.
Does any one know of any books that focus on Woolwich/south London in the blitz? So often the area seems to get overlooked or lumped in with the "east End".
Pretty much all the German agents had been turned by then. They completely convinced the Nazis that the d-day landings would be at Pas-de-Calais rather than Normandy.
From Wiki on the deception re V-rocket landing
To adjust and correct settings in the V-1 guidance system, the Germans needed to know where the V-1s were landing. The V-1 operators asked German intelligence to get this impact data from agents in Britain. All these agents were double agents under British control (the Double Cross System), so the British sent deceptive data to the Germans.
V-1 impacts were often reported in the public press, so the British did not send false reports. Instead, they sent locations of actual impacts, especially those in central London, or "long" (to the northwest), but they omitted most of the impacts falling "short" (to the southeast). The Germans were thus induced to adjust their range settings down, shifting the "Mean Point of Impact" (MPI) away from central London to less populated areas.
In August 1944, the V-1 launch sites along the French coast were occupied by Allied forces. The Germans relocated V-1 operations to the Netherlands. When they resumed launching, their MPI was back in central London, but again the British deception shifted it elsewhere, this time to the east-north-east.
This deception operation suffered some interference from a German double agent in Portugal codenamed Arabel, who fraudulently claimed to have agents in Britain. He sent in a lot of fake impact reports which the Germans accepted. Fortunately, thanks to Ultra, the Allies read his messages and were able to adjust for them.[26] He later approached the British intelligence service and served in counterintelligence. He was one of few people to be decorated for service by both the German and British governments in World War II.
The policy of diverting V-1 impacts away from central London was initially controversial. The War Cabinet refused to authorize a measure which would increase casualties in any area, even if it reduced casualties elsewhere by greater amounts. It was thought that Churchill would reverse this decision later (he was then away at a conference); but the delay in starting the reports to Germans might be fatal to the deception.
Sir Findlater Stewart of Home Defence Executive then took responsibility for starting the deception program immediately. His action was approved by Churchill when he returned.[27]