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NEW ARTICLE: ALL THAT GLITTERS MAY NOT BE GOLD

Since the failed Zabeel deal was first broadcast to the nation in October 2008, takeover speculation off the pitch has remained a bubbling undercurrent to the overall disappointing performance of our football team. Talks have been ‘on-going’ for so long now, it has got to the stage where it has become a running joke on our Forum.

But while Takeover Threat Levels have haplessly drifted between Low and Moderate over the majority of the past two years, the recent upturn in form on the pitch appears to have masked the change in the threat level to somewhere between Severe and Critical.

It really is a great tragedy that genuine supporters, who have been through the mill so much in recent years, have to rely on BBC journalists not even writing articles on the subject, but posting speculative, unsubstantiated, seductive teasers on social networking sites for suggested updates. “I know some1 who fancies U, but i’m not tellin’” was frustrating enough in the school playgrounds, let alone being applied to the potential future of the club we love so much.

Its often been discussed how Richard Murray’s legacy with Charlton will be remembered. There is no doubting the huge rise and rebirth in the club during the 1990s has been offset slightly in the downturn that has followed, but it is still worth highlighting that to the majority of fans it is still very much in credit. Where the fallback in recent years has provided a leveller, it has become more and more clear that his legacy will largely be determined not just on the state of the club when he passes the Baton on, but who it is passed on to. Richard himself has admitted as much in public.

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The recent return to takeover speculation points clearly to a ramp-up in interest by the Sebastian Sainsbury ‘consortium’ who registered the ‘CHARLTON ATHLETIC 2010 LTD’ company during the summer. A lot of mystique surrounds Sainsbury, with the positive view built on the fact that he is the great grandson of the founder of J Sainsbury.

But we equally know of Sainsbury that he is a socialite whose dablings in politics, restaurant management, nightclub management, hedge fund management, and attempted football club owner, with extremely mixed results, suggest that he is a jack of all trades yet master of none, with no clear indication of wealth to back up his intentions.

His bid for Leeds United as the front man of the Nova Financial Group consortium in 2004 failed as the group were unable to provide clear proof of funds. Along the way it included Sainsbury engaging in a very public spat on live radio with the Leeds finance director, and was brokered by what emerged to be a convicted fraudster, who was sentenced to two and half years for conning his next-door neighbour out of £164k.

There has been nothing to suggest that Sainsbury, or any of his people, have the access to funds that would be required to take our club forward. Having worked so hard to free the club of the huge debt, the likelihood of a successful Sainsbury bid would be to land the club straight back into the financial mire. In the Independent in 2004, he made his intentions very clear in relation to bidding for Leeds “Don't play with your own money”.

So how would his consortium’s bid be financed ? Through loans that the club would have to pay hefty repayment interest on ? Throw loans using The Valley or Sparrows Lane as collateral to finance the club ?

With no clear knowledge in the public domain, the above is all reasoned speculation. It does not take a genius either to work out that the instantly denied reports of a Peter Risdale bid yesterday were put around to make other bids appear more attractive. Nothing suggests to me that a Sainsbury consortium would be in the best interests of our club going forward, and in my opinion is something that everyone should equally carefully consider.

By streamlining the boardroom in the summer, Richard Murray made it much more simplified on how the Club’s future is decided.

Every one of us knows just how important it is that club finds fresh injections of finance in the near future. But it is desperately hoped that the maxim of ‘what is best for the club going forward’ is never forgotten, because it could ultimately determine how Mr Murray is remembered.
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Comments

  • That seems to me an excellent summary, AFKA.

    There are many things to concern us about Sebastian Sainsbury, and people around him, but we don't need to make it personal at this stage.

    For me, the main issue, which applies to any potential buyer, is this: if you think that the right way forward for Charlton is to borrow more, either to fund your own purchase, or to provide funds for players, why do you think Richard Murray and his main cohorts, experienced and successful businessmen, did not think of and go down that route themselves? If you believe that Murray and co. have been too cautious, where is the evidence that your more 'expansionist' approach has worked for other clubs?
  • A great way to continue a debate with absolutely no facts, and I mean facts relating to a takeover, not facts relating to Mr Sainsbury.

    The fact that fans are relying one 'journalists not even writing articles on the subject, but posting speculative, unsubstantiated, seductive teasers on social networking sites ' suggests that the reason we have heard nothing yet is because there is nothing to hear. We would not speculate on player rumours this much (although I accept the consiquences of one player purchase is not the same) so why are we continually pouring over this tiny scrap of information to get ourselves totally worked-up. When there is something to hear, hear we will. And then we can all march on The Valley and demand th return out our club.

    Until then, Don't panic Mr Mainwaring.
  • I have a fair amount of scepticism about Mr Sainsbury but that is largely because we just don't know very much about him at all. Come to think of it we don't know very much at all about anything surrounding this "takeover". I guess the club have to be especially guarded in light of the Zabeel saga

    Are the rumours he is a Charlton fan true? If so that would put a lot of minds at ease

    Are the rumours of AEG being involved true? If so that could indicate there is a lot of financial backing to any bid

    Are the rumours of Ridsdale just put out there by Sainsbury's people to highlight that "It could be worse"

    Are there Qatari's involved?

    It does certainly seem as though we are nearing a defining point in the fortunes of this club - I suggest we all strap in because it could be about to get a little bumpy
  • I would suggest that AFKA is not relying on one journalist for his information.
  • statemet on BBC site saying Charlton have rejected a bid from Sebastian Sainsburys...more to folow
  • all very true AFKA. But at some stage we are going to be sold as RM needs a sale. Whoever buys us is never going to be totally right in our eyes unless one of us suddenly wins 80m on the lottery. We are never going to be 100% satisfied with who takes over but quite rightly as you say we don't want someone taking over who is going to fund it through borrowing, especially if that borrowing is on The Valley or Sparrows Lane.
  • League One side Charlton Athletic have rejected a takeover bid from a group led by Swiss-based fund manager Sebastien Sainsbury.

    A senior source at the club said the offer had not provided proof of funds.

    Sainsbury, a member of the supermarket dynasty, fronted a failed attempt to buy Leeds United in 2004.

    Former Leeds United and Cardiff City chairman Peter Ridsdale has denied recent press speculation he is involved in a rival US bid for the Addicks.
  • For someone reason I think I would feel allot better if I knew Varney was somehow involved.
  • OK everybody panic! Charlton have rejected the bid as it is not suffiecntly funded. Arrr that means the board have taken appropriate action when it was needed. Arrrr that means the fans found out as soon as there was something to know. Arrrr we're going to have to find somethng else to panic about. Arrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
  • edited November 2010
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  • lets face it no one in their right mind would touch us with a barge pole
    these punters want a free bet , leverage us up against our own assets and make 20-30m if it goes right if it goes wrong we're sold down the swanny
    we haven't got a steve gibson or jack walker ready to piss millions of quid away on our club or some russian or middle eastern ego tripper who has to spunk dough for whatever reason
    we're not a charity(although murray is supporting us rather charitably atm) but we're gonna need someone very charitable or lucky soon if we're to survive this
  • [cite]Posted By: DRF[/cite]When there is something to hear, hear we will.

    I dont know whether you were around in 1985, when those of us who were, had a piece of paper thrust in our hands from the Board, telling us that all future games would be played at Selhurst Park, and giving us helpful tips regarding the bus routes. That is when we 'heard". And we marched and demonstrated, but of course it was too late. The deal was done.

    Some of us said "never again". Collectively we have experience, including business experience, and have or can collect knowledge and information. Football club directors are only human, and the better ones care about the perceptions of the fanbase. Nobody has anything to be ashamed of regarding the threads of the past 24 hours. And as soon as another possible bidder emerges I will be starting another "what do we know about..." thread.
  • Quite right too
  • [cite]Posted By: LargeAddick[/cite]all very true AFKA. But at some stage we are going to be sold as RM needs a sale. Whoever buys us is never going to be totally right in our eyes unless one of us suddenly wins 80m on the lottery. We are never going to be 100% satisfied with who takes over but quite rightly as you say we don't want someone taking over who is going to fund it through borrowing, especially if that borrowing is on The Valley or Sparrows Lane.

    Even then, it would depend on exactly which one of us won the lottery! I doubt even this miracle would please everyone.
  • Interesting point,why is Board split? Is it because Murray doesn't hold all the cards,lets not forget there are still Loans outstanding to Directors ,and they will rank above Murray's equity, so who does call the shots.
  • WSSWSS
    edited November 2010
    Erm, does Murray not have 100% control?
  • Good article as always.
    Indeed the correct saying is all that GLISTERS is not gold - from Merchant of Venice




    The Merchant of Venice (II, vii)
    Portia is a beautiful, virtuous, wealthy woman who is being wooed by numerous suitors. She is not free to decide on her own whom she will marry because her late father stipulated in his will that she must marry the man who correctly picks the one casket (out of three) that contains her picture. One casket is gold, another is silver, and the third is made of lead. The Prince of Morocco is one in a long line of suitors who tries to win Portia's hand, and he decides that it would demean Portia to have her picture in anything other than a gold casket, and so he chooses that one. As he unlocks it, he is dismayed to find a picture, not of Portia but of Death, with a message written in its hollow eye: "All that glisters is not gold; / Often have you heard that told. / Many a man his life hath sold / But my outside to behold. / Gilded tombs do worms enfold." With a grieving heart the Prince takes hasty leave of Portia, who is happy to see him go, saying, "A gentle riddance."
  • [cite]Posted By: Kap10[/cite]http://www.footballeconomy.com/- Wyn Grants site

    Which adds what?
  • lol, nothing !
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  • Murray has 100% control of share capital of Club,but debt is owned by him several other Directors and ex Directors and Banks.Which means evryone has to agree to make a sale unless I missed the point.
  • [cite]Posted By: PragueAddick[/cite]
    [cite]Posted By: DRF[/cite]When there is something to hear, hear we will.

    I dont know whether you were around in 1985, when those of us who were, had a piece of paper thrust in our hands from the Board, telling us that all future games would be played at Selhurst Park, and giving us helpful tips regarding the bus routes. That is when we 'heard". And we marched and demonstrated, but of course it was too late. The deal was done.

    Some of us said "never again". Collectively we have experience, including business experience, and have or can collect knowledge and information. Football club directors are only human, and the better ones care about the perceptions of the fanbase. Nobody has anything to be ashamed of regarding the threads of the past 24 hours. And as soon as another possible bidder emerges I will be starting another "what do we know about..." thread.

    I don't know if you've noticed but the world today is a little different to 1985. Back then we didn't organise a proper fight-back because to do so meant speaking to people individually to try and organise something. Today, we can respond instantly. This is what would make the major difference. When Zabeel news broke crowds had gathered otside the Valley within minutes of it being leaked on Sky, before official notice had even gone out.

    We said never again, and thanks to the internet and mass media, we will never again be so in the dark, for so long, or take so long to organise and react.

    And to state 'the past 24 hours' is pushing it a bit. People have been getting hysterical about takeover rumors for more than a week. At least.
  • [cite]Posted By: DRF[/cite]I don't know if you've noticed but the world today is a little different to 1985. Back then we didn't organise a proper fight-back because to do so meant speaking to people individually to try and organise something. Today, we can respond instantly. This is what would make the major difference. When Zabeel news broke crowds had gathered otside the Valley within minutes of it being leaked on Sky, before official notice had even gone out.

    We said never again, and thanks to the internet and mass media, we will never again be so in the dark, for so long, or take so long to organise and react.

    The world in January 1990 had not changed much from August 1985 yet the response of the Charlton fans to the Greenwich Council betrayal was light years ahead of the "response" in 1985. The difference? In 1985 we had the Supporters Club. In 1990 we had the Voice of the Valley. Charlton Life is the natural descendant of VOTV. It allows us to be proactive rather than reactive. We will not get everything right and we may waste some energy. I think thats a small price to pay for the chance to head off disaster before it hits us.
  • Prague

    I always read your posts with interest because of the situation back 1985 and your knowledge of all things in and around that time.


    As someone who doesnt pay that much attention to what is going on around him and regularly has to ask the brainey clique on here what things actually mean see the General election thread.



    I am wise enough to understand that when someone who posts on here in the manor in which you do (please keep it up) has an undertone of caution if not genuine concern can i ask.

    What is your main concern with Seb Sainsbury

    Do you think we have a lot to fear and what should we be doing about it, your questoning to find out who this guy is and what he is about is a really good idea but are we doing enough?
  • One would hope that RM is viewing any approach from SS as unacceptable because, from the horses mouth he wouldn't use his own money. The FA and Premier League need to get their act together on "fit and proper person" vetting to avoid scenarios like Man U, Hicks & Gillete and Pompey where the purchase is funded by disproportional debt. It is not an unusual practice in business, in fact my own employer was virtually bankrupted in this way. However Football has found its own ways round company laws such as settlement of "football" debts for clubs in administration. They have been handed a golden opportunity with Blatter's plans on debt ratios to outlaw or limit purchases allyed with debt. They need to get off their arses and draw up some proposals.
  • NLA,

    Just my opinion (i actually think there are 3-4 concerns regarding Sainsbury), but the main one is summed up neatly by oohaah:

    "these punters want a free bet , leverage us up against our own assets and make 20-30m if it goes right if it goes wrong we're sold down the swanny"

    The type of business model i would suspect SS would impose to finance the deal and short-term running of the club would be one that if it went wrong would leave the club in the most perilous state you could possibly imagine, and it probably wouldn't take too much to go wrong for that to happen.

    However, i do believe following the statement this morning and the bits leaking through the Beeb that we should not focus too much on the SS angle going forward, because i suspect it is pretty much dead in the water now as a viable option now.
  • Cheers smudge,

    Thats a bloody scary thought
  • My opinion is, if Leeds rejected a similar approach from him when they were in really deep doo doo then all does not seem right with the "approach" - whatever that is.
  • NLA

    First I should make clear that I have never met SS nor anyone who knows him. Everything I know about him is second - hand, and most of it from press reports.

    The main problem I have is one which might pop up with other potential buyers too. That they will not put money in, but just borrow money to put in. Thats also Ridsdale's game and you can see what chaos that brings. If it was a good idea, Richard Murray would have done it himself.
    The second one, is that I can't yet see much evidence that SS is actually a good businessman. I am looking around for evidence of a company that he's built, and can't find one.
    The third one is that he seems to be associated with some odd characters (Scientologists) and downright nasty ones (Paul Garland)

    As to what we can do about it; Richard Murray and the other directors genuinely care about the club and want to be remembered as such. If they pick up that we are worried, and for good reasons, it might stiffen their resolve to seek out the best buyers. Whereas if we just stay quiet (as DRF seems to recommend) then they may conclude that we dont care so long as we can sign someone in the January window. If the worst came to the worst, a bad buyer might actually be scared off if they see that we are a particularly well-organised and troublesome crew.
  • Excellent Prague thanks for that i am up for being a well organised and troublesome crew.


    Have you posted about Garland elsewhere if not what is Paul Garland guilty of?


    I think that aslong as you and AFKA and people like yourselves who have no agenda behind it keep the posts coming in the tone that are in more people like me will sit up and take note.


    I must admit at first i thought SS could be good but seeing what you guys have said it sounds like we need to really keep the wolves from the door.


    Keep up the good work
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